It's not the guns, it's the U.S. culture to kill with guns. It goes back to the "old west".

[AlinPA]

"Peacemakers", "getting even", "defending against society", all reasons to use guns. Don't blame the hardware, it is the 'murcan way. Kill them before they kill you in the easiest way -at a distance with a "peacemaker".

[tekisui]

1. It's the guns and the gun culture.

[marmar]

2. True. One doesn't work without the other.

n/t

[Hoopla Phil]

33. No it is the drug gang banger culture.

All these gang related shootings have nothing to do with any "gun culture" that I know of. I AM in the "gun culture" with multiple firearms some of which are Title II weapons. It is NOT the "gun culture" that is doing drive bys or killing for someones new Air Jordend, it is the "gang culture" that is doing that.

[maxsolomon]

3. as opposed to what with guns?

wound with guns?

you have a point about our culture, though. our culture vlaues the individual's grievance against society - guns are an easy way to address injustice in a troubled mind.

[AndyA]

4. The problem with our gun policies today is, everyone has to trust everyone else.

I'm expected to trust YOU, and YOU have to trust ME to handle a gun responsibly.

What you don't know about others is that they're crazy angry because their girlfriend dumped them, or they're strung out on something, or they're just angry with the whole world.

If you can't trust a stranger to go off somewhere alone with your 12 year old child, you shouldn't trust a stranger to always do the right thing with a gun. It doesn't work, obviously.

And this comes from someone who lost their Mother at a young age because she was shot in the face in our home by someone who had a gun, but never, ever, should have. And he was legally permitted to have one.

Dead is permanent, people don't come back from it. If you can't trust that stranger with your kid, you can't trust them with a gun. Think about it.

[AlinPA]

9. You nailed it.

[paulsby]

19. cars

there are lots of people i wouldn't trust with my kid but they get to drive, don't they?

it doesn't matter if i choose to trust them, they still get to drive.

i don't have to get into the car with them, but they get to be on the same roads i get to use.

cars are also deadly weapons, and unlike guns aren't a constitutional rights.

might as well never drive, because there are lots of drivers out there who shouldn't be trusted with cars.

regardless, the real issue is that it doesn't matter who you trust. it's a civil right, and thus the burden is on the govt to establish why you are disqualified to carry a gun, not on the person carrying.

[maxsolomon]

24. the "car isa deadly weapon" analogy is as tired as Godwin's law

you lose.

[paulsby]

28. if the truth is tired, i'll take a nap

hth

[maxsolomon]

32. here's why that analogy is specious

the PURPOSE of the 2 objects.

1. firing a chunk of metal with explosive force into the body of a human or animal to cause death.
2. transportation from point A to point B.

when cars kill, it is not a product of their primary function. it is 'operator error'.

when guns kill, they are working as intended.

[paulsby]

34. the only reason

the analogy is strained (not specious) is that carrying a
weapon is a constitutionally protected civil right.

driving isn't.

iow, the latter gets more protection.

yes, guns are designed to kill .

gr00vy.

they are incapable of doing so without the gun user pulling
the trigger.

killing is either justified or not, based on the particular
circumstances.

one difference between guns and cars, is cars, even driven
responsibly can result in injury or death, due to mechanical
failure, unforeseen/unpredictable circumstances (patch of
black ice), etc.

regardless, a govt. that recognizes full civil rights (speech,
firearms, etc.) necessarily empowers the citizenry with
greater power to cause harm OR good.

that's the issue with free speech (we allow hate speech, most
nations don't e.g. canada, france, the UK), and also the issue
with guns.

feel free to move to a country that does not respect civil
rights.

[maxsolomon]

35. i already live in one: it's called America.

i didn't advocate any gun policy. or car policy. or abridgement of free speech.

i don't like the analogy, that's all. it's played.

[paulsby]

36. fair enough

i like the analogy, although i prefer analogies to other civil rights, like speech, etc.

[virginia mountainman]

42. Do you trust the felon's to turn theirs in???

I don't...

[slackmaster]

5. You forgot Zombies

http://www.dsphotographic.com/g2/4464-3/Zombies+-+024.jpg

[FiveGoodMen]

6. The NRA says, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people," but ...

I think the gun helps.

-- Eddie Izzard

[tanngrisnir3]

7. Actually having a discernable, cogent point is our friend.

[notadmblnd]

8. It's not the guns, it's the German culture to kill with guns. It goes back to......

At least 10 people have been killed in a shooting at a school in south-west Germany, police say.

Most of the dead are thought to have been pupils at the Albertville secondary school in Winnenden, north of Stuttgart.

Police say the gunman, who was reported to have been wearing black combat gear, has fled into the town.
...
The editor of the local paper, Frank Nipkau, told television channel N-TV that eight pupils and two adults were among the dead.
...
Local media reports say the gunman was a former pupil.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7936817.stm


I'll await your answer.

[AlinPA]

11. Just like in America.

[notadmblnd]

13. The Old West?

[AlinPA]

17. Like the U.S., today.

[paulsby]

20. which old west?

the hollywood version of the old west, where every dingdong was shootin' it out with everybody else, or the ACTUAL old west, that had a lower homicide rate than today?

iow, hollywood's conceptualization of the "wild west' is largely mythological.

it's about as close to the actual old west reality, as tonto was to your average native american reality.

[petronius]

22. I could be wrong, but I have the impression that "Old West" mythology is rather

popular in Germany, and rivaled the U.S. interest level in the heyday of the Western. Anecdotally, I was poking around some ghost towns last summer, and pretty much every other visitor was German.

(No relation to your point, just trivia...)

[TlalocW]

10. I don't feel this way about all gun owners

But I honestly feel that there are some who buy guns for protection not with the hope that they'll never have to use it but with the hope that they'll get to justifiably (at least under the law - self defense, etc.) kill someone - someone who they view as a "punk" or dreg of society that crossed the wrong person (the gun owner) and finally got what they deserved.

TlalocW

[AlinPA]

12. Of course its not all gun owners.

[TheWraith]

14. Actually, I think the large majority stems from poverty.

Whether that's directly, just from people robbing liquor stores and muggings, or the indirect cases like the man who went on a rampage in Alabama. I doubt that he would have had a list of former employers to take revenge on if he'd had a good-paying job that offered respect and a real future.

Look at Canada--they've got nearly as many guns per capita as we do, but their rate of murders is infinitesimal compared to ours. Why? They take serious measures against poverty. They aren't perfect, but their poverty rate is 10%, and mostly limited to rural areas. That's compared to ours which is at around 15% at the best of times, spikes as high as 40%, and is disproportionately young and centered in inner cities.

[jmg257]

15. God made man, but Samuel Colt made them equal.

[Tim01]

16. I wish I could dissagree with you.

I am a gun-guy. I actually shoot guns pretty often. But when I go to the video store and walk down the aisles I'm like "Damn, where are all the movies that DON'T have people with guns on the front cover?" Cowboys with guns,gangbangers with guns,cops with guns,hot girls with guns,rednecks with guns,zombies with guns. I mean seriously, do we make movies about anything else?

[TlalocW]

18. The Zombies have learned how to use guns!

Shit! We're in trouble now.

TlalocW

[NewMoonTherian]

38. Absolutely unfounded claim.

The zombie virus destroys the frontal lobe(actually repurposes it, but from the standpoint of conscious thought, it's destroyed), leaving zombies with only rudimentary motor function. Only a fraction of Z's can so much as use a ladder, and that much only if it's already in position. Doorknobs are beyond the dead mind's comprehension, and a trigger would be out of the question. If you saw a zombie fire a gun, it was purely accidental.

[Tim01]

39. POser

You don't know anything about REAL zombies. You probably don't even know zombies have been genetically crossed with vampires, do you genius?

I'm not even going to waste my time with a n00b like you.

[yagotme]

44. Zombie Fires Gum

Try Day of the Dead (Title?). Next movie after Dawn of the Dead. Zombie uses Colt .45 to kill leader of human group.

[spin]

21. Well, sex and violence is the main themes is most movies...

Seems you can't show much explicit sex in mainstream films, but you can show extreme violence.

Strange since sex is a normal part of life while extreme violence is not.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. Kill Bill mostly used Swords.

Nice change of pace. (Snerk)

[comtec]

23. I think it's safe to agree on this point

And to point out that most if not all of the weapon owners on DU are responsible, and certainly not WHY we have gun control laws on the books.
Laws are meant for the exceptions.
You will always have the random person just loose it.
You never know what the tipping point will be.
The rumor over here, is that the kids girlfriend just broke up with him.

That can snap about anyone, esp a 17yo. We don't know the details, etc, but between that, major tests coming up in a couple months, spring break, etc, and this could have just been what set him off.

sadly he'll simply be looked at as deranged, and possibly an excuse to grab guns in Germany.

This will be a tragedy on many levels by the time the politicians are done, i'm afraid, after all, sometimes things just happen :shrug:

[yay]

26. Sounds like someone watches to many movies, and

Really doesn't understand the gun culture as a whole. "getting even" isn't part of the equation for 99.999% of the gun culture. "defending against society" is rational. What are we supposed to do if someone decides to harm me or my family? Even if it statistically unlikely to happen. Especially when the police don't have an obligation to protect you.

Yes we should be reaching out to the troubled members of our society but you can't help everyone.

There is also a LOT more to the gun culture than simply "defense". Gang's, organized crime, things like that are NOT part of the gun culture. Yes they may use guns, but that doesn't mean they're part of it.

[AlinPA]

27. I'm not talking about "the gun culture", I'm saying that America has a culture of

killing with guns. It manifests itself in revenge against society (imagined or real), defense against society (imagined or real), and "making peace" with a gun.

[Tejas]

29. redundant flamebait - nt

[Furyataurus]

30. We should go back to the ways of the "old west"

An armed society is a polite society. It was true then and it is true now.

[jeepnstein]

31. What?

The only people I ever hear talking like that, other than in the movies, are folks who don't have a firearm.

It's easy to play the cowboy when they're shooting rubber arrows at you.

[jknappsax]

37. So, it's better to let them get close in!

I'm a 54-year old who can defend myself pretty well hand-to hand, but one thing martial arts has taught me is that, no matter what you know, someone can get lucky and put you down. I don't want to hurt anyone EVER, but if my choice is fighting one or multiple opponents without a gun or with, I choose with. I'm highly trained and comfortable with a handgun,and understand gun safety.I have a question for you: Have you ever been jumped? I have, and think if you had, you'd have a more realistic view of the world.

[tortoise1956]

40. Why are you sterotyping gun owners?

Most of the gun owners I know shoot less than a dozen times a year. for example, I generally pull my pistols out about 6 times a year to warm up for corporate challenge. I've shot my AR-15 once, mostly due to laziness. My 12 gage has never been shot, it sits in the bedroom by my nightstand.

As far as a "Gun Culture", you'll find if you read accounts of the old west that firearms were rarely used other than for practice or hunting. There was no need. After all, who wants to take a chance on robbing someone if they might be better armed than you are?

I'm guessing that you have never shot a firearm, or if you did it was only once or twice. There is no evil magic attached to guns, other than the magic conjured up by those who have no familiarity with them. They are no different from other tools - if you use them corectly they are safe, if you misuse them thay can be dangerous. But they are ONLY tools.

[old mark]

41. You are ignoring the stupid and crazy American culture completely.

We are surrounded by agressive moneymakers who justify ANY ACTION in order to make a profit. We have a highly mobile society that places little value on education or civilized behavior or on any type of higher cultural refinement. Instead we have TV and drugs and alcohol.
In Philadelphia on EVERY school day, over 30% of all public highschool students are absent from school. They are on the streets doing something other than learning, ot at least learning what schools are supposed to be teaching.
We have international drug smugglers and gangs, nationwide gangs of meth makers, etc....

You should get some better idea of the reality of the country you are living in.


mark

[Taitertots]

43. I blame Hollywood

As soon as movies start to show photo realistic depictions of violence we will see a cultural change.

Instead Americans only see glorious depictions of shooting. We see people die instantly and painlessly from stomach wounds that hardly bleed. What we should see is the true effects of shooting. People would be running from the theaters if they had to see an accurate depiction of violence.