"Assault weapons" for hunting?

[spin]

Many anti-gun proponents say that a "assault weapon" is useless for hunting and is designed only for killing humans. Note: we are not talking about an fully automatic or burst fire military weapon but a semi-auto CRIPPLED ASSAULT RIFLE.

Now another rifle of military origin is moving rapidly into prominence in the hunting and sport shooting world: the AR15 .223 and AR10 .308. And, like its predecessors, the AR platform is meeting resistance, even outright opposition, from many hunters who are personally wedded to earlier gun designs. No surprise there; when the lever action was first used for hunting, traditionalists, whose idea of a "real" hunting gun was a single-shot muzzleloader, distained the need for a repeat-fire tool.

********SNIP******

Technically speaking, it makes all the sense in the world that proven military rifle designs should be inherently appropriate for hunting use. All successful military rifles are specifically designed for rugged, reliable function and durability under extreme conditions, which translates automatically into use under even the most extreme field-hunting use. They're also designed for reasonable weight, portability and ease of fast handling by people who may be carrying other heavy gear and wearing bulky clothing. They have an inherent capability for follow-up shots, and they must be deadly accurate against targets of the same basic dimensions and at the same distances typically encountered by hunters.

The AR in particular is a superb hunting design, due primarily to its lightweight synthetic and corrosion-resistant alloy construction. And, it's surprisingly accurate, due primarily to the fact it's an "assembled" gun rather than a "fitted" gun. Its major components essentially snap together. Unlike a traditional bolt-action rifle, which generally requires close-tolerance, hand-work receiver/barrel mating and precise bedding into the stock for maximum accuracy and consistency, a hunting-grade (or even competition-grade) AR can readily be assembled from modular components literally on a kitchen table, by anybody with a modicum of ability to use relatively simple hand tools. Likewise, a service-grade "standard" AR15 can readily be brought up to minute-of-angle performance by selective replacement of key modular elements with match-grade parts. And, once tuned, an AR stays that way, due to the fact that its entirely nonorganic components (nonwood) are not susceptible to environmental distortion (warpage or swelling). All an AR really needs is a quality barrel to shoot as well as the best hunting rifle you can buy.
http://www.huntingmag.com/guns_loads/phsar_022707/





edited because of poor wording.

[jody]

1. Suggest you consider revising your second sentence to read "not talking about". n/t

[spin]

2. Thanks, will do. (n/t)

[underpants]

3. Doesn't this more depend on the "tumbling rounds"?

My time in the US ARMY afforded me to learn about how M16 rounds (AK's too) tumble upon enter the body. Bouncing off bone to basically rip apart the inerts and destroying as much as possible per successful shot.

A tumbling round would destroy too much meat to make it a good decision.

That being said none of the hunters I have known would want anything to do with a M16 or an AR. My grandfather directly decried the use of such back in the 70's

[Tim01]

5. Wow.

Bullets are just bullets. Long, long ago the military looked at tumbling rounds and abandoned the idea.
Not to mention many AR platforms have different uppers on them for shoot rounds other than the .223.
7.62x39 makes a very good deer round, not a long range round.

There is nothing special about military bullets at all. AND military rifles shoot hunting bullets just fine.

If anything, the FMJ military bullets cause LESS damage than hunting bullets, no contest.

[underpants]

18. WOW

Tumbling and frangible FMJ bullets

Some designs of FMJ rifle ammunition inflict more destructive gunshot wounds than others. Not all FMJ bullets contain a simple lead filling. Here are some examples:

* Although British Mark 7 .303 ammunition is compliant with the terms of the Hague Convention, it creates more destructive gunshot wounds than standard spitzer bullets due to its internal design. The centre of gravity of the Mark 7 bullet is deliberately shifted towards the rear. This is achieved by constructing the front third of the interior of the bullet from a lighter material such as aluminium or wood pulp. The result is a tail-heavy FMJ bullet which yaws violently after hitting the target.
* American 5.56mm NATO FMJ ammunition has a much thinner jacket than others. As a result the bullet may yaw and fragment by fracturing along the cannelure.
* Russian 5.45x39mm FMJ ammunition uses a tail-heavy bullet which has a tendency to yaw after hitting the target.
* German 7.62x51mm NATO FMJ has an unusually thin cannelure i.e. the groove running around the circumference of a bullet which is used to crimp it to the cartridge case. When the bullet hits the target it fractures along the cannelure and fragments, causing massive tissue damage as per the 5.56x45 mm NATO bullet but on an even larger scale.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_metal_jacket_bullet

[Tim01]

22. You're right.

[krispos42]

28. The point being to tumble AFTER it hits flesh

I believe there was a misconception that the bullets tumbled in flight to create some kind of "buzzsaw" effect. Of course this was ridiculous; such bullets would have the accuracy of a thrown paper airplane and not much more range!


You might enjoy this site:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm


Guns nuts test stuff like this. Penetration and such. It's pretty cool... :-)

[underpants]

30. That was my point

tumbling pre-entry would defy rifling principles

checking out the sites. Thanks

[underpants]

31. The Buick O' Truth

So what about the other sections of the car?

Well, we shot those too.

:rofl: very funny. I mean that I get the joke BY the gun guys. Well crafted.

From what I could see from the Box O' Truth certain rounds did tumble. See I knew there was something they told me in the Army that wasn't a lie.

[krispos42]

33. Yup, light and fast means they aren't as stable...

after hitting something.


Eh, I'll take an M1 Carbine over an AR-15 any day. For my purposes (home defense) I want something that I can tip with a bayonet and swing like a club. Tight quarters and all that.

[krispos42]

7. The tumbling of the bullet is based on bullet design.

Nonexpanding high-velocity bullets curve (or yaw) when they enter flesh and tumble. The military's full-metal-jacket rounds have a cannulure around the middle to aid in seating the bullet firmly in the mouth of the casing. This cannulure forms a stress concentration point which, under the impact of a close-range impact with a person, makes the bullets fragment into smaller pieces.


However, with hunting bullets this is not relevent, as hunters do not use full metal jacket bullets. They use expanding bullets that mushroom upon impact. And they may or may not tumble and ricochet when they enter, depending on bullet placement and direction.

I've seen shot deer, seen them gutted and skinned and hung up on a garage wall. The wound channel isn't very big, even when something big like a .30 or .270 is used.

[underpants]

9. That, I think, is what I was getting at

Very interesting. Lots to look up and read in that post. Thanks.

As I understood it the point was that a single round would incapacitate a soldiering unit but hopefully not kill them. Like an injury from a claymore or a grenade a WOUNDED soldier takes 4 other soldiers out of the battle, a dead one takes one-even though the wounded soldier had (not now) a high likelihood of dying anyway.

[krispos42]

12. Suppose to be "more humane"

It's why they banned military use of expanding bullets back in the 1890's.


Progress...?

[pipoman]

36. Entry wound is small

damage can be tremendous. I will (as most people) never forget my first deer. I shot it with an .30-06 assault weapon (Remington M742). It was running straight away from me. The bullet struck the deer nearly exactly between the hams. The destruction was unbelievable to me. The ham meat was shredded to the bone all the way through, the liver was cut in half and there was no piece of the heart larger than a silver dollar, both lungs collapsed. It taught me that shot placement was extremely important so as not to destroy the meat. I have shot several with that same rifle since and all have been one shot-one kill with very little meat loss.

[Callisto32]

26. There has been much improvement since the 70's.

[east texas lib]

32. Hmmm..

Stoners original M-16's had a slower twist in the barrel rifling. This resulted in a less stable
projectile which could tumble upon entering a human body. It also resulted in decreased accuracy
and was eventually abandoned.

[pipoman]

38. Short of a smooth bore

I think the tumble effect has more to do with ammo configuration than the rifle. I have had ammo tumble. I studied using light loaded ammo to reduce the velocity enough to capture the bullet in a photographic frame. The effect was that when the bullet struck an object it would begin to tumble. The resulting hole in my aluminum foil strobe trigger on one occasion was exactly the shape of a slightly mushroomed bullet and was almost perfectly vertical. BTW, I never was able to catch the bullet clearly as my strobe speed at the fastest was only 1/40,000 second, too slow to stop the bullet, even low velocity...I would need 1/125,000 second to even get close to stopping the bullet and that setup is just too cost prohibitive. This is as close as I came with a subsonic .22 short.

[AtheistCrusader]

43. My guess is, that rifle in the deer picture above is an AR-10

A .308 caliber weapon. In most states, .223 is illegal for deer hunting, because it is too under powered to cleanly kill large game.

Hunters don't use 'tumbling' bullets, we use bullets that expand. FMJ Ball would be a terrible hunting round. Far more likely to wound, than to kill.

[Arctic Dave]

4. The bottom picture says pretty much what you can hunt with.

Anything bigger then a dear (possibly a small boar) you are underpowered to take down. (ie bear(black or Brown), elk, moose)

However, if you are worried about weight why bother with all the extra rounds and "jangle" of an AR. Also, there several hunting rifles on the market that have synthetic stocks.
If an AR is all you have to hunt with you could do it but IMO there are far more superior rifles on the market you can use straight off the shelf that cost a lot less.

[Tim01]

6. You make valid points..but

it is nice to have a rifle that is capable for multiple tasks.
And the reason I like my AR for hunting is 1) god forbid something goes wrong on my first shot, I have a quick follow up shot. Very important to me. and 2) One mag and I have all the ammo I need for the hunting trip. I don't have more stuff in my pockets.
Your points are still valid though.

[krispos42]

8. They make different-sized uppers for AR-15s, though

You can get it upgraded to 6.8mm SPC and .50 Beowulf for heavier stuff.

[Arctic Dave]

10. But as the barrel gets larger so does the cost.

You can pretty much change the barrel for any stock but then your are looking more a "boutique' style of rifle. A standard AR is around 1500.00 without too much extra stuff included, add the cost of barrel upgrades and your just looking to spend money.

[krispos42]

11. Probably cheaper than buying a whole new gun, though

Jus' saying. :shrug:

[Arctic Dave]

14. If you have the AR already it might be economical.

But if you are buying new, I would be surprised if a AR with modifications would be almost twice as much as say this. (First rifle that popped into my head)

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/CenterfireBoltAction/default.asp

I may be wrong, I'm just going off my personal experience.

[krispos42]

23. Yeah, bolt actions run about half the cost of an AR

More competition, dropping demand.



If I was going to get a rifle for deer hunting, I'd get one of these:


http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/itemdetails.asp?cat_id=535&type_id=114&cat=001C&item=535114264


Or one of these:


http://www.savagearms.com/16fcss.htm


Either one in .270 WSM.




Yeah, as if I could afford this stuff... :-)

[X_Digger]

20. Before the recent run up in prices..

It used to be cheaper to buy the parts and put one together for yourself.

I put this pistol together for about $525, it would have actually been cheaper to build a 16" or 20".



Right now, a kit for a 6.8spc will run you $590, you have to add the $200 lower.
model1 sales

[Arctic Dave]

24. Sounds like a good deal. Did you mill the barrel yourself?

Also, how is recoil feel with that style of stock, If you could call that a stock. LOL

[X_Digger]

25. Nope, bought most of the parts online.

Recoil is the same as any other AR in 223, that is to say, almost negligible. I can easily shoot it one handed (without the scope of course, that was just for S&G). The buffer on the back isn't a stock, nor can it accept a stock. (That would be an illegal short barreled rifle.) You can get a good cheek weld to it, though.

[spin]

13. Remember the AR-10 is chambered for the .308

which should be more than adequate for deer and elk at a reasonable range.

Since you post as "Arctic Dave" I would imagine you might hunt much bigger game than someone in Florida.

My next caliber is the .308 Win. The .308 Win was introduced as a commercial round by Winchester in 1952. It is the civilian version of the 7.62 X 51 mm NATO round. The .308 Win is the most popular short action Big Game hunting cartridge in the world. It is also ideal for civilian target shooting, military sniping, and police sharpshooting. The .308 Win has acceptable recoil, excellent terminal ballistics, it behaves predictably in the wind, and it is consistant in it's performance. This consistency is what makes the US Army rely on the .308 Win as a sniper weapon out to 800 yards. The USMC relies on the .308 Win as a sniper weapon out to 1000 yards.
http://www.kalahari-trophy-hunting.com/five-more-essential-calibers-for-the-international-hunter.html

Armalite AR-10(t) Target / Hunting / Sniper Rifle (USA)



Caliber: .308 / 7.62x51mm (or .243 win)
Type: gas operated, rotating bolt, semi-auto
Barrel: 610mm (24" sst t heavy)
Overall length: 1105mm
Weight: 4.72 kg
Magazine capacity: 10 or 20 rounds

[Arctic Dave]

15. I would say a stock AR would be more adequate for deer.

I would be iffy for an elk (especially at long ranges)

[sir pball]

40. That's the exact rifle I've been hunting with for 5 years now.

It's more than "adequate" for deer and elk, also black bear, moose, and just about any other non-dangerous North American game. Plus it makes an amazing target rifle, on a good day I can shoot 0.5" groups at 100y and I'm sure the rifle can print them even tighter.

That's the main reason I use it, with the mildot reticle it puts the bullet EXACTLY where I want it at any range; that and the fact that it's 100% weatherproof, ideal for spending long days in freezing rain sleet and snow makes it just about the perfect game gun. I'm allowed 5 rounds by ME law, one mag in the well and that's all I need to carry. Expensive but highly recommended.

[virginia mountainman]

16. LOL Great Post...

But you know, when you challenge preconceived notions, of some of the whiny, close minded, Republican worshiping anti-gunners in here...

Lets just say, prepare to be bombarded with half baked, regurgipoop spoon fed to them by Republicans like Sara Brady, Bloomberg, and Paul Hemlke, not to mention that EX-Republican Caroline McCarthy...YES, she was a Republican, you can tell when she opens her mouth......

Those Rethugs and their enablers cannot stand to leave our Civil Rights alone..

[spin]

19. True, it causes voters who would vote for Democrats...

to hold their nose and vote for Repubs.

It would help if Hillary and Holder wouldn't say things that enforces the belief that Democrats are anti-gun.

[virginia mountainman]

21. Agreed..

I think Obama is fully aware of the consequences of pushing for any kind of AW ban, I think he will play it just like Bush did, give lip service to it, while not lifting a finger to push it.

He knows that to push for it, would expend tremendous amounts of political capital.

I think Holder, and HRC are just "old gun control warriors" that are still stuck in their ways, while the majority of Democrats "get it", especially in the Congress.

They are fully aware that in 1994, the pro gun movement was much weaker, and very unorganized, and the legislation BARELY PASSED then..

In 2009, the pro gun side, is HIGHLY motivated, HIGHLY connected, and HIGHLY ACTIVE...

Not to mention, MUCH MUCH more numerous than in 1994...

And we have the original AW Ban to thank for that.

[Iktomiwicasa]

39. I have a sneaking hunch

that considering Obama's record on gun control legislation in ILL, that the recent noise about renewing the AWB is a trial balloon sent up via proxy by Holder and Clinton.

[virginia mountainman]

42. You are probably right...

Nice to see it was shot down so fast it did not even make it off the ground.....

[X_Digger]

17. I used an AR-15 to hunt javelinas last year in AZ

Works great!

I'm building a different upper to do more local hog hunting. I _could_ hunt hogs with 223, but I'd have to choose smaller specimens and perfect shot placement. 6.8spc, 7.62x39, .243- all are appropriate for the ranges I'm looking at, and an upper in any of those calibers will fit on my existing lower. That's another advantage to the AR platform- many many many calibers available just by swapping the top half of the rifle after pulling two pins.

[gorfle]

27. What is lost on the anti-gun folks is this one simple fact.

I don't have to put a 30-round magazine in my AK when I take it hunting. My 5-round magazine works just fine for that job.

[spin]

29. Exactly, and in many states five rounds is all you can have...

in the magazine while hunting.

[east texas lib]

34. Well...

In the fall of 1994 I shot a black buck antelope at a distance of 165 yds. using a Poly-tech M-14S
with stock peep sights and off the shelf UMC 165GR FMJ ammo. That was our Thanksgiving meat. I can
assure you that these weapons are indeed well suited for hunting.

[Furyataurus]

35. You don't go varmint hunting with a bolt action rifle

you use a semi-auto. By the time you're ready for the second shot with a bolt action rifle your target's are GONE. UNLESS, its on FLAT land for MILES.....yeah, how often dose THAT happen.......

[pipoman]

37. Depends on where you live. This is a shot from the edge of my property

where I cull the coyote population occasionally.

[sir pball]

41. On the rare occasions when I shoot coyotes..

I don't use a bolt action gun, you are correct. I use a Ruger Number 1 single-shot in 22-250. NO second shot needed :D

[Taitertots]

44. The Fuds

The people who bemoan ARs as inferior to "hunting" rifles are fuds.

All their problems with ARs are unfounded at best.