Guns And The Right Wing Agenda

[MrBenchley]

Interesting interview....

"Richard North Patterson likes to grapple with controversial topics, and his new novel, BALANCE OF POWER, is no exception --- this time, he takes on gun control. His timing couldn't be better; the book was published just as the suspects in the DC sniper shootings went on trial and as the Senate was moving toward a vote on a bill that would give gun manufacturers and dealers immunity from civil lawsuits. So as he talked with Jesse Kornbluth, he often left the book behind to deal with politics --- and the political agenda of the National Rifle Association.
RNP: Guns and a right wing agenda are first cousins. We're in a culture war. The right says our troubles come from the '60s: women's lib, hippies, drugs. Now, that line of thinking goes, only white males are targeted. So guns take on totemic importance for those men. Create that level of hatred, it's easier to demonize than explore common sense measures.
The right to form a militia does not mean, 200 years later, we need gun show loopholes so a criminal can own an AK-47. Even in the Constitution, no right is absolute. Nothing in the Second Amendment bars us from making laws that keep guns out of the hands of criminals.
BRC: Ohio has just legalized carrying concealed weapons. What's the logic?
RNP: These laws mean you can take guns to hospitals, churches, stadiums, parks and schools. I guess the idea is to pop off your priest before he gets you."

http://www.bookreporter.com/authors/au-patterson-richard.asp

[Wild Bill]

1. I liked this line from the article.

Create that level of hatred, it's easier to demonize than explore common sense measures.

[MrBenchley]

3. Sums up the racist NRA's world view

pretty well....

It also explains why so many racist groups trumpet that "gun rights" horseshit almost word for word...

[Wild Bill]

6. easier to demonize than explore the issues

Yes we all know you hate gun rights groups all ready. Can we discuss the issues rather than "Create that level of hatred, it's easier to demonize than explore common sense measures.".

There is a good thread out there already.

"Real" firearms control started by Romulus.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=20429&mesg_id=20429

I am looking forward to reading your comments on that thread.

[MrBenchley]

8. The issue right now is guns and the right wing agenda

"There is a good thread out there already.
"Real" firearms control started by Romulus."
I thought it wasn't a good thread, so I didn't bother.

[Name removed]

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[slackmaster]

24. Yes, Benchley promotes a Package Deal Fallacy

He can't seem to comprehend that a person can be liberal and support the RKBA, or even a Republican or Libertarian and support the RKBA if you also happen to be homosexual.

[MrBenchley]

29. Jeepers, that's certainly mistaken

"a person can be liberal and support the RKBA"
That's funny, when somebody tried to produce a list of them, the entire RKBA crowd here really couldn't. About a half a dozen names....one of which was Dean, who isn't all that liberal and is closer to my position on guns than yours...and a bunch of Zell Miller-type DINOs.

Yet I sure didn't have any problem coming up with dozens and dozens of liberals supporting gun control...just as I had no problem coming up with truly scummy right wing loonies trumpeting "gun rights."

"even a Republican or Libertarian and support the RKBA if you also happen to be homosexual"
Gee, I never said that...I just commented that it sure was strange that this mythical individual who is "Republican or Libertarian and support the RKBA if you also happen to be homosexual" seems to be utterly unconcerned about right wing individuals and organizations who have stated baldly that they want him dead AND in hell.....but is bent out of shape rabidly enough to demand a boycott because the American Academy of Pediatricians recommends keeping guns away from kids or because Barney Frank supports renewing the assault weapons ban and enforcing background checks at gun shows.

It's enough to make one wonder whether that person's group isn't entirely mythical, in the manner of other groups that the gun rights groups have created to shield themselves from well-deserved criticism.

Certainly there's no shortage of pro-RKBA people and groups willing to spout anti-gay rubbish, starting with Charlton Heston: "I find my blood pressure rising when Clinton's cultural shock troops participate in homosexual-rights fund-raisers but boycott gun-rights fund-raisers... and then claim it's time to place homosexual men in tents with Boy Scouts, and suggest that sperm donor babies born into lesbian relationships are somehow better served and more loved.

Such demands have nothing to do with equality. They're about the currency of cultural war—money and votes—and the Clinton camp will let anyone in the tent if there's a donkey on his hat, or a check in the mail or some yen in the fortune cookie."

http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/speech.html

"The National Rifle Association's annual convention in Reno, Nev., degenerated on Sunday into a session of gay-bashing, with one commentator referring to anti-gun talk show host Rosie O'Donnell as a "freak" for her recent admission that she's a lesbian.
During a two-hour panel discussion attacking the media for distorting the views of gun-rights proponents, all but one speaker took an opportunity to slam gays and lesbians -- including O'Donnell -- in some manner.
O'Donnell, who had a much-publicized 1999 tiff with actor Tom Selleck about his NRA support, is "not cool, she's the freak," said conservative commentator Debbie Schlussel, a frequent guest on "The Howard Stern Show" and Fox News. "

http://www.planetout.com/pno/news/article.html?date=2002/04/29/2

[Stilgar]

35. I know its hard to seperate the 2 in your mind

but rkba and nra are not the same things. One is an idea/principle the other is an organization that believes in that idea. You see the KKK is the same thing, an organization that believes among other things that rkba is an individual right. People can have that same idea without the other beliefs included.

It is possible to believe the idea and not believe in the organization. Point in fact the http://www.keepandbeararms.com/ people are not only pissed at the NRA but are also trying to get a RKBA suit in front of SCOTUS. People are getting tired of the NRA because they are not pushing for RKBA enough. In about a month we will know if SCOTUS accepts a case at its base is either a collective right or individual.

The NRA did nothing but a friend of the court breif and that is nothing but support of the case, not of the group.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[MrBenchley]

51. Been there, done that

And the ultimate proof that it IS a lie comes from the liars themselves.

If what the NRA says about the Second Amendment is true, EVERY gun control law everywhere would be unconstitutional. Yet the NRA never sets foot in court anywhere to sue on Second Amendment grounds. That's because they know what the difference is between the gibberish they confuse their in-bred chinless hordes with, and what the Second Amendment actually means, as the courts have affirmed again and again.

[Spoonman]

54. That's not proof

That's an opinion.

Once again you fail to demonstrate that you understand the difference.

I could easily state that all gun control advocates are neurotic, however we all know that is an opinion (sometimes supported) but nontheless an opinion presented without factual evidence.

Please try again, using verifyable FACTS!

[CO Liberal]

55. Oh, I Get It.......

If something affirms YOUR beliefs, it's a verifyable fact. But if it affirms someone else's beliefs, it's opinion.

[MrBenchley]

57. Funny

I can't think of a single more damning proof that someone is lying than their refusal to back up their assertion with action.

If the NRA didn't KNOW they were lying, if they had even a glimmer of hope that their claim was based on some truth, they'd be in court like a shot.

[MrBenchley]

37. By the way...

Considering Kasler v Lockyer already flopped, I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you....

"Joining the (Brady) Project on its amici briefs were the California Peace Officers' Association, the California Police Chiefs' Association, the Peace Officers Research Association of California, and the California Sheriffs' Association."

http://www.gunlawsuits.com/docket/casestatus.asp?RecordNo=39

Fresno Rifle and Pistol Club v. Van de Kamp also went in the dumpster...

http://www.healylaw.com/cases/fresno.htm

However, it is pretty hilarious for this new bunch of gun nuts to try and drag ergonomics into the mix when pushing Silviera...although considering Tony Scalia's crooked son has made his career attacking ergonomics in the workplace, it seems like desperation more than anything else.

[CO Liberal]

38. Organizations, Like People, Are Known By The Company They Keep

IMHO.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

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[MrBenchley]

42. And declaring every decent progressive group is an enemy

says a lot about the racist asswipes at the NRA, doesn't it?

[demsrule4life]

2. We are in a cultural war

the antis are just like Hitler. Hitler preached how the Jews were criminals and lower life forms and then had the backing to kill them off. Antis esp one on this board likes to scream how gun owners are racists, confederate flag pickup truck driving trailer trash. So what is the ultimate fate of gun owners once they are disarmed?

[CO Liberal]

4. We're Not Talking About Disarming Everyone, Dems

True, a few people want all guns banned, but they're a small minority. The majority of people who favor gun control (such as myself) are looking for solutions that keep the guns away from the bad guys while allowing others who choose to own guns reasonable access.

Please put the broad brushes away.

[MrBenchley]

7. Hell we can't even call for background checks at gun shows

without this hysteria raging forth.

[Spoonman]

12. Deleted

[Spoonman]

13. Are background checks

not required at gun shows?

[slackmaster]

31. We already have background checks at gun shows

No sign of hysteria here.

[Liberal Classic]

10. Few pro-life people say they want all abortions banned

That's what they say at least in public.

[CO Liberal]

11. Not Here In Colorado Springs

The pro-lifers here want ALL abortions stopped.

But nice try at yet another pro-gunner apples-and-oranges argument.

[Liberal Classic]

34. Most claim to exempt rape and incest

In public anyhow.

But the point is not to compare anti-choice or pro-gun, but to suggest that in the political arena a lot of people don't let on their goals.

[MrBenchley]

14. Where is that?

They sure as hell aren't shy about shouting that at the top of their lungs around here.

Hell, they've even used their guns...and bombs. They sure seem to love their "gun rights." And there's a big overlap in the two crowds.

"Jindal regularly celebrates his parents' coming to America from the Punjab over 30 years ago. A fervent Roman Catholic convert, he has embraced the views of Louisiana's largest voting bloc, white conservatives: opposition to abortion, with no exceptions; rejection of gun control; promotion of religion in public life; hostility to affirmative action; and questioning of evolution and tolerance for creationism. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031025/ap_on_re_us/louisiana_governor_3

"But in 1997, a company started by his then-wife, actress Jeri Ryan, with money from Jack Ryan, had an interest in a movie featuring rape, nudity, implied three-way sex and a woman killing a pet pig with an ax. "Men Cry Bullets," an unrated independent film, also features the character of an adult man toting a baby bottle, dressed in nothing but a diaper.
The movie's closing credits thank a "J.R.," shortly followed by thanks to Doug Ryan, who is Jack Ryan's brother and campaign treasurer. The Ryans' August 1999 divorce settlement lists the company, RAJ Productions, as joint property.
Ryan opposes gay rights, gun control and abortion except in cases of rape, incest and to save the mother's life. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/cdh/20031017/lo_cdh/senatehopefuldeniestietoracyfilm

From the Free Republic: "I found a great t-shirt while surfing the web over the weekend. It said, “Guns don’t kill people, abortion kills people.”"

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-religion/989700/posts

From some right wing asswipe: "Abortion and Gun Control: The Propaganda of Liberalcrats "

http://www.useless-knowledge.com/columnists/lannygrant/article23.html

[Name removed]

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[MrBenchley]

5. Gee, dems

"Antis esp one on this board likes to scream how gun owners are racists, confederate flag pickup truck driving trailer trash."
Sounds like Patterson is right on the money...."It was a room filled with raging paranoia --- but that's what the gun culture does: raise fear....Now, that line of thinking goes, only white males are targeted. So guns take on totemic importance for those men."

[MrBenchley]

9. A take on the media's reaction, from Buzzflash:

"Let's take a look at another "leftist appeaser," Martin Sheen. Supposing Sheen, a supporter of gun control, attended a Million Mom March rally and exhorted the crowd: "Now, George Bush is saying to the NRA, 'I'm with you guys on guns.' In any other time or place you'd be looking for a lynching mob." And supposing the Million Moms responded with shouts of "let's do it" and "I've got a rope."

Of course, once again, Martin Sheen never would utter such a disgusting, menacing threat.

But one of Bush's closest pals, Charlton Heston, said virtually the exact same language about then Vice-President Al Gore during the 2000 election campaign. Speaking to an NRA "Get Out the Vote for Bush Rally" in Grand Rapids Michigan, Heston, in October of 2000, said something that should have resulted in a visit from the Secret Service: "Now, saying 'I'm with you guys on guns.' In any other time or place you'd be looking for a lynching mob." The crowd responded with "let's do it" and "I've got a rope," according to a Grand Rapids newspaper.

So here's the figurehead leader of the NRA, which claims it's composed of "law-abiding" citizens, suggesting that the sitting Vice-President of the United States, a Democrat of course, should be lynched. And he gets away with it. After all, Chuck Heston is "law abiding." Just recall his lack of compassion (in "Bowling for Columbine") toward a young girl who had been killed in a Michigan classroom by a gun wielding grammar school classmate.

This sort of violent, right wing extremist "talk" has real consequences. In November 2002, Sen. Tom Daschle said that the escalation of extreme right wing rhetoric over the past few years has coincided with an increase in personal threats against him and his family. According to Gannett News Service, Daschle compared "the fervor conservative commentators stir up among their listeners with the violent impact religious fundamentalists have in other countries." "


http://www.buzzflash.com/editorial/03/04/11.html

[el_gato]

15. when the right-wing lynch mob shows up at your house

you'll wish you had a gun

Gun totin' liberals are the fascists worst nightmare.

[Name removed]

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[MrBenchley]

17. The NRA as Republican Special Interest Group

"The NRA in recent years has moved, in the words of the Violence Policy Center, "from the gun war to the culture war." As VPC puts it: "...the NRA has expanded from its pro-gun roots into a defender of the conservative values which Heston describes as a 'cultural war.' In doing so, the NRA has become the dominant lobby for both the right-wing of the conservative movement and, therefore, the Republican Party."

Last year, in an effort to understand NRA spending habits, the Campaign for a Progressive Future researched NRA expenditures during the 2000 election cycle. We discovered the following:

* NRA members ran 52 get-out-the-vote phone banks -- all on behalf of Republican candidates.

* The NRA did not endorse a single Democratic candidate in a competitive House or Senate race.

* By a ratio of 317-to-1, the NRA spent its independent expenditure money on Republicans in 2000.

* The NRA also made huge soft money donations to the national Republican Party apparatus (perhaps that's why the NRA is so hostile to Sen. John McCain's campaign finance reforms).

In short, the NRA in 2000 was just another Republican special interest group; indeed, among the GOP's biggest, loudest, wealthiest, and meanest special interest groups.

So the NRA plays the Wizard of Oz: pretending it's not a subsidiary of the GOP, and hoping that its power boast will obscure both the truth of its weak electoral showings and another little problem it faces -- the future.

By far the NRA's best support group has been rural white men, especially those who grew up hunting. These are the supposed victims of the "culture war" that so fixates Charlton Heston. This is also a shrinking demographic group, both in the general population and at the voting booth.

Meanwhile, as the 2000 elections also made clear, the national Democratic Party has made gains among suburban voters, a steadily growing demographic group. Suburban women, in particular, are very strong supporters of gun control. Latino voters are, too, and they are the fastest-growing group in the country. "

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0508-05.htm

[el_gato]

18. we all know that but not all gun owners are NRA people

of course to you all gun owners are ted nugent fans too

[MrBenchley]

20. Then why are you bent out of shape

if everybody knows it?

You sure seem upset that it's being mentioned in public.

"to you all gun owners are ted nugent fans too"
Jeepers, that bigoted scumbag Ted is a board member of the largest gun owner group...with very little criticsm from gun owners (none at all that I can find) for his overt racism.

I'm sure you can show us sites where gun owners are condemning Ted for his racism, can't you? (snicker)

[Name removed]

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[MrBenchley]

25. Gee, which one of us brought up Ted Nugent here?

Guess there's no gun owners anywhere complaining about Ted Nugent's racism...or that the NRA has him on their board. Just as I said.

[el_gato]

26. that would be YOU

again as I said I don't give a rats ass about nugent

[MrBenchley]

30. Nope....not true

"el_gato (1000+ posts) Fri Nov-07-03 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. we all know that but not all gun owners are NRA peopleEdited on Fri Nov-07-03 01:28 PM by el_gato
of course to you all gun owners are ted nugent fans too"

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

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[el_gato]

27. anyway you don't have to like nugent or the NRA to own a gun

but you can't comprehend that

[MrBenchley]

32. Gee...

...wonder why any time the NRA or Nugent is criticized, there's all these screams of rage?

There are plenty of threads all over DU bashing other right wingers and racists and you hardly ever see people jumping in to defend them...or to scream about how unfair it is that they are pointed out as scumbags.

I yet to see in a thread bashing pResident Turd, people screaming "not all presidents are unelected drunks."

[el_gato]

41. your not even make sense now

[demsrule4life]

43. As we all know the VPC always speak the truth

On their current home page there is a link to a story that 50 Cal sniper rifles are eaiser to buy than handguns. So lets explore this.


If I want to buy a handgun I go to the store, put down my money, fill out the federal paperwork, the clerk does the NICS check, if I'am not a criminal I take the handgun home.

If I want to buy a 50 Cal sniper rifle I go to the store, put down my money, fill out the federal paperwork, the clerk does the NICS check, if I'am not a criminal I take the 50 Cal rifle home.
Seems to be the same to me.

I dont post anything from the NRA, noone should post any links from the lying VPC or the deceitfull Brady websights.

[MrBenchley]

44. Cry me a river dems....

Between you or the NRA, and the VPC? I'll believe the VPC.

[demsrule4life]

45. Just wandering

did you fall for the Brady bunch NRA blacklist pandering?

[MrBenchley]

47. Gee, dems, I was proud to join

pretty much every decent person in America is on the NRA's hate list.

[demsrule4life]

48. I always have respect for people that dont mind

when companys do things like commit fraud as long as they agree with their agenda.

[MrBenchley]

50. Whereas I have no respect for people

who side with racists and try to spin away their racism

[Romulus]

52. thank you

for *finally* clarifying your firearms owner = racist position.

It's about damn time . . . .

[MrBenchley]

53. I've been clear all along

Every racist piece of shit that can be found is peddling this dishonest "gun rights" crap...and the two major gunowners groups are headed by openly racist asswipes.

"The Black community needs to fight back because of the racist sentiments held by those who would protect the right of gun manufacturers to flood the Black community, believing that human life is cheap there and that everyone is on drugs. In fact, earlier this month, while H.R. 1036 was being debated on the floor of the House, Rep. Barbara Cubin (R-Wyo.) rose to support it, saying: “My sons are 25 and 30. They are blond-haired and blue-eyed. One amendment today said we could not sell guns to anybody under drug treatment. So does that mean if you go into a Black community, you cannot sell a gun to any Black person…”

Immediately, African American Congressman Mel Watt, (D-N.C.), who was managing the opposition to the bill, moved that Cubin retract the comments. She refused and one of her Republican colleagues moved to lay Watt’s motion on the table - in other words, to cancel it. Watt then moved that a recorded vote be taken.

Cubin finally apologized for her remarks, but what was interesting was that her colleagues supported her by a vote of 227 to 195. While the racist statements by former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott were played up from one end of the country to another, these statements by a House Republican seem to have escaped most of us, or maybe they are so frequent that most people are now hardened when they occur."

http://www.sacobserver.com/government/commentary/050503/republicans_naacp_guns.shtml

[Stilgar]

19. I like it when they prove how stupid they are

BRC: Ohio has just legalized carrying concealed weapons. What's the logic?
RNP: These laws mean you can take guns to hospitals, churches, stadiums, parks and schools. I guess the idea is to pop off your priest before he gets you."

The not yet legal (Gov. Taft needs to sign it) Ohio CCW limits where you can carry your gun, like hospitals, courthouse, bars, schools, churches/other places of worship, and where "no guns allowed" signs are posted.

But I guess it doesnt matter if you don't know the facts when you are selling a book.

[MrBenchley]

22. Between you and Patterson

I'll take Patterson.

[Stilgar]

28. Between facts and lies, I choose facts

You can look up the current passage of HB12 and see what it is doing. There is a conference panel that is trying to get the Gov. to agree to some changes so he wont veto it.

HB12 also states the places a CCW cannot be carried. This is indisputable fact. Happening right now, easy to find.

So easy to disprove I will do it for you, here is an article about what Taft wants changed
Gongwer News Service
November 5, 2003
"Mr. Aslanides characterized the hearing as "organizational." He said panelists would discuss areas of the bill (HB 12) that are ripe for change, including provisions addressing affirmative defense and limits of CCW in automobiles. Those issues, described as "holes in the bill" by the sponsor, have been the focus of contention for months between the State Highway Patrol, the support of which has been deemed necessary by Governor Bob Taft, and the bill's supporters in the House."

and the .pdf of HB12 page 42, lines 1220-1290 say where you can take you CCW
http://www.ohioccw.org/files/125HB12PHY-TC.pdf

Thanks for playing, have a nice day

[MrBenchley]

33. "we'll have a president ... where we work out of their office."

"On May 3, Texas Gov. George W. Bush alleged that Vice President Al Gore was once a member of the National Rifle Association. The Gore camp said it could find no evidence that Bush's claim was true, and NRA spokesman Bill Powers said that he, too, could find no record of Gore's membership in the organization's microfiche, but the next day Bush repeated the charge. Pressed by reporters as to how he could make such a claim, Bush said, "He might have been a member, let's put it that way." ...But it certainly seems odd that Bush -- whose election as Texas governor was greeted with a banner headline in the NRA magazine that "Gun Owners Win Big" -- would bring it up.
Indeed, it should hardly be worth going into the many ways in which Bush lands squarely on the side of the National Rifle Association on the issue of gun laws. Whether you agree with him or not, that's where he is, that's where he's been and no doubt that's where he will continue to be. Voters will have a clear choice between Gore, a candidate who supports gun laws written by Sarah Brady, and Bush, who stands with NRA president Charlton Heston.

In fact, as has been widely reported, NRA first vice president Kayne Robinson told an audience of NRA members earlier this year, "If we win, we'll have a president ... where we work out of their office."

If you believe in the world according to Robinson -- that there are already more than enough gun laws; that the Clinton administration needs to enforce the laws already on the books; that this is all just a slippery slope leading to the government banning guns outright -- then Bush is your man. If you think that society will become safer if there are more people carrying concealed handguns, then Bush is the clear choice.

"He's been open-minded, he's been willing to talk to the NRA and the TSRA representatives in Austin over firearms issues since he's been governor," says Talbot. "He has not been against our issues," says Talbot. "He was very supportive of the concealed carry law" that passed in 1995.

Intriguingly, Talbot is sensitive to anyone portraying Bush as a friend of the NRA and TSRA. "I don't want to paint Gov. Bush as being in the NRA's pocket or TSRA's pocket -- that's not true at all. He's not. I think he's a fair man. He's not an extremist." Asked if he can name a time when Bush disagreed or worked against the NRA or TSRA, Talbot says, "I can't think of any in recent time." But, he reiterates, "I don't want to paint Gov. Bush into a corner that doesn't give him any way out." "

http://dir.salon.com/politics2000/feature/2000/05/17/bush/index.html

[MrBenchley]

46. A bit more from Buzzflash on the "liberal" media

"Where are all the pro-gun pundits now? Last week, with the news that the National Rifle Association (NRA) was going to launch an ad campaign against gubernatorial candidate Ed Rendell in Pennsylvania, pundits were predicting that the primary race was going to tighten up and probably result in Rendell's defeat. FoxNews.com ran an article, featured prominently on the NRA's web page, titled "Pa. Democratic Primary Focuses on Guns." On May 16, 2001, five days before the primary, one Pennsylvania paper, The Morning Call, featured a story titled, "NRA ads could help give Casey the edge, political analysts say." Instead, Rendell thumped the NRA-backed candidate, Bob Casey, by a wider than expected margin: 56 percent to 44 percent. This in a state where the NRA boasts membership that is second only to California. But looking back, the NRA claimed they would deliver Pennsylvania for Bush too in 2000-but they didn't. However, there will be virtually no commentary that the gun issue worked for Rendell because it defies the prevailing "conventional" political wisdom.

The conventional wisdom on guns is overblown and largely fabricated, but often repeated. The political reality is that in urban and suburban areas gun control helps candidates, especially when their opponents toe the NRA line. Demographically, the suburbs in this country are expanding. Meanwhile, the small, but vocal hard-line pro-gun voters are never going to support any candidate who has wavered on the gun issue. And to the hardcore gun lobby voters, that means almost always supporting the Republican. The bottom line is that candidates who fail to understand that the gun control issue can help them in the vote-rich areas of their states -- as it did this week for Ed Rendell in Pennsylvania -- do so at their political peril."

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/2002/05/24_NRA.html

[FlashHarry]

58. Locking

This is a not-so-thinly-veiled continuation of the 'voices for gun control' threads and has likewise deteriorated into tit-for-tat mudslinging.

FlashHarry
DU Moderator