You Can't Argue With Anti-Gun Logic Like This!

[DemBones DemBones]

C-SPAN's "Washington Journal" featured a debate about gun-related issues with guests Larry Pratt, Executive Director of Gun Owners of America and the well-known author, Richard North Patterson, author of the new novel, "Balance of Power." Patterson is also involved with the Brady Campaign.

At one point Patterson proclaimed:

"It's literally possible in this country to shoot your wife, go to jail for manslaughter, get out, cross the street, go to a gun show, buy an AK-47 -- a pre-ban AK-47 --and go home and finish the job."




Think about it. :think:

[TexasMexican]

1. Yeah thats wrong.

It could have been prevent if the guy was sentanced to death instead.

[billbuckhead]

3. No wonder HoHO didn't want NRA sticker on that white man's pickup truck

The Confederate flags is less controversy prone than those gun wackos.

[LibLabUK]

9. A question

"It could have been prevent if the guy was sentanced to death instead."

Is it possible to be considered a liberal or progressive if you believe in the validity of the death penalty?

[roughsatori]

2. The man kills his wife twice?

Are you sure that is an exact quote? If so it really does sound like an hysterical response (in both senses of the word).

[DemBones DemBones]

5. Yes! I have TiVo so I can replay and transcribe, even when I'm

not recording. It's great when you hear one of these "Whaaaattttt?" remarks.


I heard a "Whaaaaatttt?" statement from Bush* tonight. Lou Dobbs said that Bush*, speaking in South Carolina today, said that "free trade" creates jobs in America. Dobbs then pointed out that tens of thousands of textile mill jobs have left S.C. for overseas in recent years.

[roughsatori]

6. Good, I'm glad it is accurate that makes it very funny

Thanks be to TiVo and you for transcribing.

[Gephard]

4. That pesky 2nd Amendment!

Damn the founding fathers!!!!!!!!!!

[Wonk]

7. I suppose it could depend on what he meant by "finish the job"...

I get that he couldn't kill his wife twice, but he could go postal on the rest of the extended family and finish with himself.

Think about it. :think:

[MrBenchley]

11. By the way

wonder how many bone-stupid things Larry Pratt had to say on the program? He is, after all, so repulsive a racist specimen that even Pat Buchanan had to flee his company.

"Pat Buchanan is not a fascist, as New York Times columnist Abe Rosenthal once charged. He's not that sincere.
His immigrant bashing has long had a racist undertone. In 1984, he argued that Americans would have to decide "whether the United States of the 21st Century will remain a white nation" and later warned about an invasion of "Zulus."
It was therefore no surprise to learn that his campaign cochairman, Larry Pratt, attended meetings with members of the Aryan Nation and other neofascist groups at which they shared a common interest in armed militias. Or that Buchanan would rush to his defense. Why not? Pratt, the president of Gun Owners of America, could deliver an important constituency in New Hampshire."
 
http://www.robertscheer.com/1_natcolumn/96_columns/022096.htm

[DoNotRefill]

8. That's possible anyplace, even places with strict gun control....

all you have to do is be willing to commit a bunch of felonies.

[MrBenchley]

10. Gee, but thanks to the corrupt gun industry

and the Republican party....there's no background checks at most gun shows.

[pnb]

12. And that has to do with those felonies?

How?

[Spoonman]

13. What a pantload

Peddle it to someone naive enough to believe it.

[DoNotRefill]

14. Sorry, MrBenchley...

all gun dealers are required to conduct background checks at ALL gun shows. Most sales at gun shows DO have background checks performed on them, as required by Federal law. Saying they don't is either a lie or misinformation.

[MrBenchley]

15. Not even close to true, refill

but it's good to see some RKBA hooey is evergreen.

[demsrule4life]

17. Sorry mr b anybody holding an FFL at a gun show

or anywhere else has to do a background check, private sales at a gunshow do not require a background check. This is where your "gunshow loophole" comes in.

[MrBenchley]

18. Pretend all you like, dems

"private sales at a gunshow do not require a background check."
And the corrupt gun industry does all it can to keep that loophole gaping open.

[demsrule4life]

19. What am I pretending about?

[MrBenchley]

20. Yeah ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ight....

[Liberal Classic]

24. I dare you to go to a gun show & buy without a call to the NJ State Police

It won't happen. You will fill out ATF form 4473. They will check your driver's license. And then they will call the New Jersey State Police who act as the point of sale instead of the NICS system. Then you'll have to wait three days, or whatever the waiting period is.

I dare you to go to a gun show and try. All the dealers there will do this. I double-dog dare you to try to talk one of the firearms dealers into selling to you without making the call to state police. Just be clever and subtle, and I'm sure you will get away with it. Heck, I'll give you the money as a gift so you can try to buy your own gun and see for yourself, since you don't seem to know the facts.

:)

[slackmaster]

25. Let me bump that up to a triple-dog-dare

Background checks are strictly enforced for all firearms sales in New Jersey. That includes used guns (all types) sold by private, non-licensed individuals.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.asp?state=nj

See also: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/statelaws/23rdedition/newjersey.pdf

[Liberal Classic]

27. I just checked and you're right

New Jersey requires permits and background checks.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.asp?state=nj#license

License or Permit to Purchase
Is a license/permit required to buy handguns?  YES

State law requires handgun buyers to obtain a license from law enforcement prior to purchasing a handgun and long gun buyers must have a firearms identification card. The license only involves background checks and fingerprinting, no safety training is required. The license is also generally required for anyone who wishes to be "loaned" a handgun outside of the presence of the owner. The license is valid for up to 90 days, and may be renewed for an additional 90 days. The fees are $49 for fingerprinting, $2 for a handgun permit and $5 for an identification card. The permit is normally processed in less than one month, or less than six months if additional research is needed. While only handguns require a handgun permit, a firearms identification card is required to receive a long gun and that card is valid until/unless revoked.

Secondary Sales
Are background checks required on 'private' gun sales?  YES

State law requires people buying or obtaining ownership of a firearm to obtain a permit from law enforcement, which requires a criminal background check. Handgun buyers are permitted to buy one handgun per permit, while buyers of rifles and shotguns may purchase an unlimited number of those weapons. A purchase permit or ID card is required for all firearm purchases in the state, including those at gun shows or through Internet or newspaper ads.

[MrBenchley]

29. What do you hear from Fred Phelps, slack?

Bet he's still a bigoted piece of shit.

[slackmaster]

30. OT - Neither Phelps nor Falwell have replied

I guess we'll never know whether or not they believe homosexuals should be prohibited from owning firearms.

:shrug:

[MrBenchley]

31. Here's a tip

they're both vicious bigoted pieces of shit.

And Falwell, at least, happily peddles this gun rights crap...he's an NRA life member.

[MrBenchley]

46. Actually, thanks to Google we do...

We already knew that disgraceful turd Falwell was trumpeting this dishonest "gun rights" crap. But it turns out Phelps does too...

"The Rev. Fred Phelps Sr. kicked off his campaign Friday for the Democratic nomination for governor by proclaiming support for a Singapore-style caning law and promising to purge the state bureaucracy to prevent the "promotion of sodomy."
Phelps, pastor of the Westboro Baptist Church, is best known for his public campaign against homosexuality, which has included picketing other churches and funerals of AIDS victims.
He promised "zero tolerance" on various issues, including gun control, abortion, crime, budget increases and same sex marriages."

http://cjonline.com/webindepth/phelps/stories/052394_governor.shtml

Notice he didn't say a word about "gun control for homosexuals only" or anything like that.

[MrBenchley]

28. What a silly comment

"In 18 states – including New Jersey – there are laws requiring background checks at gun shows, or at least requiring a permit or firearms ID card to purchase a firearm. Unfortunately in 32 states, criminals, illegal aliens, terrorists, and even students can still go to a gun show and purchase a gun with no questions asked, and no ID required. And they do."

http://www.njea.org/PressRoom/oped_093002.asp

Now go play "let's pretend" with somebody dumb enough too fall for this sort of crap.

[juancarlos]

36. What a illogical statement

Use your brain and think about this. Gun manufacturers make money by selling guns through FFLs, they don't make money off private sales. Seeing as how gun manufacturers are capitalists, for what logical reason would they want to keep "that loophole gaping open"? It hurts their profits!

[CO Liberal]

38. The More Guns Out There, The More Ammo They Need

The larger the market for bullets. And more profits for the manufacturers.

[juancarlos]

39. cartridges are not

made by gun manufacturers, they are made by ammo manufacturers. So now the anti crowd is saying that the "gun show loophole" is due to the ammo manufacturers...sad.

[CO Liberal]

53. They're Part of the Same Industry

Just as tire manufacturers Goodyear and Firestone are part of the car industry, although they don't make cars.

[juancarlos]

59. Then use the proper statements...

You should say that the ammo manufacturers are the ones pushing for the "loophole". Obviously it isn't the gun manufacturers.

[CO Liberal]

60. Are You Saying.....

....that NO gun manufacturers also manufacture ammo?? I've seen boxes of ammo with Winchester and Remington logos on them.

[juancarlos]

63. Here's the story

Winchester is a brand name, owned by Olin Corporation. Olin makes ammo and brands it with Winchester. Winchester branded firearms are made by a completely different company, the United States Repeating Arms Company, they license the name and pay a royalty. Remington Arms Company makes rifles and shotguns. The Remington-Peters company makes ammunition. Both market under the name "Remington", and present themselves as being one company, to strengthen the brand name, heck...they share a website. They may be otherwise linked, but I'm not sure. Many years ago, they were the same company. Taurus is gun maker, and there is Taurus Ammo out there. The ammo is manufactured by Hornady Ammo, and has licensed the Taurus name.

[CO Liberal]

64. They're All Part of the Gun Industry

And through the licensing agreements you've described, they share profits.

[juancarlos]

65. Damn,

Your statements were shown to be misinformed, why don't you just admit that your premise that a "loophole" exists because of gun makers is wrong? In the future, postulate that the so-called "loophole" exists due to ammo-makers or whoever. You were shown wrong on this particular point, admit it and move on.

[CO Liberal]

67. Please Get Your Eyes Checked

Nowhere in this thread did I post ANYTHING about any sort of "loophole". Either get your vision checked, or make damn sure who you're talking about BEFORE you attack.

[juancarlos]

68. My response and apology

"Your statements were shown to be misinformed, why don't you just admit that your premise that a "loophole" exists because of gun makers is wrong? In the future, postulate that the so-called "loophole" exists due to ammo-makers or whoever. You were shown wrong on this particular point, admit it and move on."

I agree that you did not post any direct comments about a "loophole." If your comments in response to my response to post 18 were meant to refer to something other than the "loophole", I apologize, and ask that you be more specific in the future. As it was obvious that you were referencing the "loophole". If you were not, by implication, stating that there is a "loophole", then what the hell are you talking about?

[Wcross]

40. That is a flat out Lie MrBenchley, and you know it.

"there's no background checks at most gun shows."
I guess your pathetic attempt to brand ALL gunowners as racist or neurotic isn't working out, is it? Now you feel a lie is appropriate?

[MrBenchley]

43. That is 100% true, cross and YOU know it

in 32 of 50 states background checks are not required at gun shows...and, big surprise, most of the gun shows in the cocuntry occur in those states.

[slackmaster]

47. That's a major distortion and you know it

Some states do not require background checks on private-party sales of USED firearms. It does not matter where the transaction occurs; either a check is required or it is not.

Licensed gun dealers have to conduct background checks on all sales of new or used guns regardless of where the transaction takes place.

[MrBenchley]

48. Peddle it to someone dumb enough to buy it

Try those guys passing out hate literature at those gun shows...there's sure plenty of THEM.

[slackmaster]

49. And Benchley responds with a Red Herring!

Nice try.

[MrBenchley]

52. Hahahahahahahaha...

"Criminals should not be able to walk into a gun show and buy firearms. But they do.
    The federal Brady law requires a background check of gun purchasers, but there is a hole in the law that Congress annually refuses to patch. The law requires federally licensed gun dealers to check the backgrounds of would-be buyers, but the law does not apply the same requirement to unlicensed sellers. This loophole is particularly worrisome at gun shows, where investigations by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms have reported that criminals are able to buy guns. "

http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Sep/09242003/opinion/95203.asp


"Closing the gun show loophole would require unlicensed sellers at gun shows to perform background checks through a licensed dealer, making it more difficult for guns to fall into the wrong hands, including those of criminals and minors."

http://www.cdfactioncouncil.org/gunshow%20loophole.htm

"Indiana should tighten regulations for sales at gun shows and designate the FBI instead of the overworked state police to handle background checks on handguns under the federal Brady Law.
Current loopholes appear to have contributed significantly to the state's dismaying eighth-place ranking in guns traced back to purchases in other states after their use in crimes. A report by Americans for Gun Safety found 1,684 used in crimes outside of Indiana were initially purchased in the Hoosier state. Ohio ranked seventh, with 1,697 guns involved in crimes committed elsewhere.
The statistics strengthen arguments for closing the gun show loophole. Firearms acquired through private transactions at gun shows sometimes are resold in other states to felons who are legally prohibited from buying them. Gun show regulations among the top 10 gun-exporting states show the importance of cracking down on non-licensed sellers."

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/6638519.htm

Tim McVeigh spent years wanderinng around gun shows,, and didn't even stand out among the other crazies there.

[slackmaster]

54. Where else do private transfers of firearms occur, MrBenchley?

When are you people going to stop pretending that requiring background checks on private sales at gun shows would prevent criminals from getting guns?

Here in California we have background checks on all gun sales including private ones regardless of location, and criminals still manage to get guns. Do you think all the gang-bangers and junkie bank robbers in Los Angeles drive to Phoenix to get their weapons, MrBenchley?

:eyes:

[MrBenchley]

56. Gee. slack.....

That to you is an argument for leaving the gun show loophole open?

"Here in California we have background checks on all gun sales including private ones regardless of location, and criminals still manage to get guns."
So why not let the corrupt gun industry cash in openly, eh?

[slackmaster]

57. You have completely missed my point as usual

That to you is an argument for leaving the gun show loophole open?

No.

It's an argument for a more comprehensive solution to the supposed problem of uncontrolled sales of used firearms. Addressing only sales at gun shows would simply move the problemmatic transactions elsewhere. The Lautenberg bill is nothing more than window-dressing designed to dupe voters into believing we are "doing something" about criminal misuse of firearms. It's a very non-creative measure based on bumper sticker politics; one that will inconvenience the public and cost public money to enforce with no reasonably foreseeable decrease in violent crime.

[MrBenchley]

61. Yeah,, surrrrrrrre....

"It's an argument for a more comprehensive solution to the supposed problem of uncontrolled sales of used firearms."
Let's see you convince your fellow gun nuts, then.

[iverglas]

16. ah, the things we say

... when we're speaking without notes. Perhaps this speaker has been listening to your president too much.

I recall the first time I was ever interviewed for radio.

I was at a public meeting about the City's lax enforcement of property standards by-laws, and the remedies available to tenants whose landlords refused to repair their units.

I had addressed the meeting, and was standing chatting with some other people afterward. The reporter asked for my opinion of the City's policies.

Well, I said, we did understand that the city's building inspectors were operating under their own constrictions ...

... and immediately had a vivid mental picture of a building inspector with a large snake wrapped around his neck. I could have said "constraints", I could have said "restrictions", but noooo, I said "constrictions".

I'm sure that the speaker in question here has had just such a moment. Damn, I could have said "attempted murder", I could have said "assault", but noooo, I said "manslaughter".

Perhaps George should call him to commiserate.

The situation does bring to mind an episode of the BBC series Inside the Line, in which the male cops are pressing for a manslaughter charge against another cop who clearly murdered his wife in premeditated cold blood and the female cop is dumbfounded by their willingness to be complicit. She wrote on the blackboard:

Manslaughter.
Man's laughter.

.

[el_gato]

21. perhaps we should ban knives as well

[CO Liberal]

22. We'd Be Better Off Banning Larry Pratt

He's a useless turd of a human being.

[MrBenchley]

23. The guy is racist scum

[el_gato]

26. knives kill people!

what are you some kind of racist knife lover!?!

[CO Liberal]

32. I've Never Seen a "Racist Knife"

:-)

[el_gato]

33. and I've never seen a racist Gun

[MrBenchley]

34. Gee, we've sure seen plenty of racist scum

heading up the two largest gun owners groups (with hardly a murmur of protest from their members). And all of them that we've found are spouting this bogus gun rights crap at the top of their lungs.

[el_gato]

35. If your black and you own a gun, does that make you racist?

Do you have to join the klan after you buy a gun?

:crazy:

[funkyflathead]

41. Good one! n/t

[RoeBear]

42. According to ole Bench...

...yes all gun owners are racists. Even black gun owners. Silly isn't he?

[MrBenchley]

44. Prove it, roe

Let's see where I've said that. Oh that's right....I DIDN'T.

But I did point out that THIS disgraceful turd is as phony as a three-dollar bill, and created by a right wing "institute".....
Look at this...

http://www.imakenews.com/ontarget/e_article000118313.cfm

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/01/10/ar_northbridge.htm

http://www.badnarik.org/news/01112003.html

Wonder who's funding these bozos?

http://www.northbridgetraining.com/home.html

[slackmaster]

45. He also believes the Catholic Church supports gay rights

Go figure.

:shrug:

[MrBenchley]

50. You mean THIS group, slack...

"A pastoral letter released today by the U.S. Catholic Conference encouraging families to accept their gay loved ones and reaffirming the basic human rights of gay people was welcomed by the Human Rights Campaign as an important step forward on the road to ending discrimination based on sexual orientation."

http://www.qrd.org/qrd/orgs/HRC/1997/welcomes.catholic.pastoral.letter-10.01.97

Incidentally, looks like yet another bigoted piece of shit has been trumpeting gun rights....

"The Rev. Fred Phelps Sr. kicked off his campaign Friday for the Democratic nomination for governor by proclaiming support for a Singapore-style caning law and promising to purge the state bureaucracy to prevent the "promotion of sodomy."
Phelps, pastor of the Westboro Baptist Church, is best known for his public campaign against homosexuality, which has included picketing other churches and funerals of AIDS victims.
He promised "zero tolerance" on various issues, including gun control, abortion, crime, budget increases and same sex marriages."

http://cjonline.com/webindepth/phelps/stories/052394_governor.shtml

Notice he didn't say a word about "gun control for homosexuals only" or anything like that.

Guess we know now why Phelps is okay but actual pro-gay liberals are enemies for the NRA's phony "gay gun owner" group.

[slackmaster]

51. Let us know when the RCC allows gay marriages or gay priests

The Roman Catholic Church is talking the talk by saying WE shouldn't discriminate against homosexuals in housing, employment, etc. but when will it walk the walk by putting them in management positions in its own organization? When will it start ordaining gay priests or sanctifying gay marriage? When will it stop calling gay sex acts an "abomination" in the eyes of God?

LMAO! I never thought I'd see the day when someone like Benchley becomes an apologist for one of the most bigoted, racist organizations in the history of the world.

[MrBenchley]

55. Let US know

when Fred Phelps does.

"When will it start ordaining gay priests"
Probably about the time it ordains heterosexual ones. Right now it ordains neither.

"Priests in the Catholic Church may be categorized as either diocesan or religious. Both types of priests have the same priesthood faculties, acquired through ordination by a bishop. Differences lie in their way of life, type of work, and the Church authority to which they are responsible. Diocesan priests commit their lives to serving the people of a diocese, a church administrative region, and generally work in parishes, schools, or other Catholic institutions as assigned by the bishop of their diocese. Diocesan priests take oaths of celibacy and obedience. Religious priests belong to a religious order, such as the Jesuits, Dominicans, or Franciscans. In addition to the vows taken by diocesan priests, religious priests take a vow of poverty."

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos063.htm

"At this time, the Roman Catholic Church does not normally exclude male candidates for seminary because they have a homosexual orientation. The one exception is believed to be St. Charles Borromeo Seminary in Philadelphia, PA. At least one seminary, University of St. Mary of the Lake, IL, a.k.a. Mundelein Seminary, accepts students with a homosexual orientation, but not those who admit to frequenting gay bars. However, while in seminary and after ordination, all students are expected to remain celibate.
With the church's current requirement of priestly celibacy, seminaries are having difficulty recruiting heterosexuals to the priesthood.
Father Donald Cozzens wrote that several studies have concluded that about 50% of priests and seminarians are gay."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc1.htm

[slackmaster]

58. You seem unusually preoccupied with Fred Phelps and religion

"At this time, the Roman Catholic Church does not normally exclude male candidates for seminary because they have a homosexual orientation. The one exception is believed to be St. Charles Borromeo Seminary in Philadelphia, PA.

Note the weasel-worded passive voice "is believed". Who the hell is the writer trying to kid?

At least one seminary, University of St. Mary of the Lake, IL, a.k.a. Mundelein Seminary, accepts students with a homosexual orientation, but not those who admit to frequenting gay bars.

IOW most seminaries practice a Catholic version of "Don't ask, don't tell" except Mundelein. I wonder if Mundelein would consider an occasional beer on a Friday night at the Slip Inn Tavern to be "frequenting" a gay bar.

Please keep us posted. I'm sure a lot of us will be interested to know when the RCC starts ordaining women or universally accepting OPENLY homosexual men as priests.

[MrBenchley]

62. Gee, you're the one who e-mailed the scumbag

Be sure and tell us when he e-mails you back.

[slackmaster]

66. I emailed him because you were afraid to

You chickened out on a triple-dog-dare.

[MrBenchley]

69. Yeah, ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ght

I wasn't harboring any doubt that the bigoted old piece of shit was another "gun rights" loony...and as it turned out, I was right.

Nice playmates you got, slack.

[slackmaster]

70. You're entitled to your perception

It saddens me that you are so committed to your jaundiced view of people that it's easier for you to prop up your obvious miscasting of the Pink Pistols with an absurd claim that the Roman Catholic Church is a gay rights organization than it would be to simply admit your error and get on with your life.

You really can't admit your mistakes, can you?

[juancarlos]

37. I've seen

Plenty of scum spouting racist gun control policy at the top of their lungs.