the rhetoric of the anti-gun crowd

[el_gato]

There are basically two points that are pushed by the anti-gunners here.

One is there is some kind of link between racism and gun ownership.
The constant harping about racism when bashing gun ownership is alot
like how bush and cheney linked the iraq invasion with 9/11. They just
mention the two together constantly so as to promote this idea that
somehow all gun owners are racist.

The other is the idea that all gun owners think the NRA is a good organization, and the idea is to bait gun owners into defending the NRA.
I personally think the NRA is another corrupt organization that is a political pawn kinda like these religeous conservative fundy organizations that support bush even though he is anything but a good christian.

In your opinion do you think these types of arguements honest or dishonest?

[Lindacooks]

1. The main argument put forth by anti-gun members is

STATISTICS.

No matter what gun lovers (or even gun likers) say, the fact is that the U.S. has BY FAR the highest rate of deaths by guns than any other country in the world with gun control laws.

Other than simply by saying that those proven statistics aren't true (a Rpuke tactic, BTW), there is no argument against that.

[DarkPhenyx]

6. Actually it's fairly easy to say they are untrue.

You can even prove it. Let's stat by looking at if that is a per capita number, or raw numbers. Next let's look at exactly what that statistic says. How was it derived? What do they call a gun death?

Look at the real stats behind "alcohol related accidents" and you see the same thing. Once you start looking at the real numbers, how they were interpreted, and what was included as an "alcohol related" accident and the numbers look far less solid than MADD would love for you to believe.

[MrBenchley]

7. Another is that

it is ridiculous to allow the corrupt gun industry continue to set public policy on this issue.

[CO Liberal]

2. And The Rhetoric Of The Pro-Gun Crowd

Slightly modifying your post.....

There are basically two points that are pushed by the pro-gunners here.

One is there is some kind of link between racism and gun control. The constant harping about racism when bashing gun control is EXACTLY like how Bush and Cheney linked the Iraq invasion with 9/11. They just mention the two together constantly so as to promote this idea that somehow all gun control advocates are racist.

The other is the idea that all gun control advocates think the Brady Campaign and/or Handgun Control, Inc. are good organizations, and the idea is to bait gun owners into defending organization with which they may not be familiar.

All in all, too much attacking the person instead of discussing the issue.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DarkPhenyx]

8. Your first modification...

...makes no sense and is not an argument I have ever heard put forward.

[MrBenchley]

10. It certainly has been put forth here over and over again

And shown to be a pantload over and over again.

[DarkPhenyx]

12. Pro gun people...

...saying that the anti-gun argument is linked hand in hand with racism? Somehow I find that hard to believe. I tend to read every gun thread I see on here. Dosen't mean I didn't miss one, or some posts in one, but still...

*shrug*

Until I see it someplace I'll hold to my original position.

[MrBenchley]

17. Yup....

About once a month that pops up...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=17703&mesg_id=17703

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=8533&mesg_id=8533

[DarkPhenyx]

25. Apparently Laney is an idiot.

There is a big surprise.

[el_gato]

18. you aren't reading then

the posts by co and mr.b link racism and gun ownership repeatedly

there may be better arguements against gun ownership but the ones peddled by these two are as I outlined above


next

[DarkPhenyx]

23. OK, wait a minute here.

I am agreeing that people are linking gun ownership with being racist. I am not arguing that point. However the assertion was made that being anti-gun makes you racist. I am being told that argument is made on this board. Now...is that the case? Show me an example. Please copy and paste the relevant post here along with the thread link.

[CO Liberal]

26. I Thing It's a Safe Bet......

....that if you were looking for racists, you'd have a better chance of finding them at a typical gun show than you would at a Million Mom March.

[DarkPhenyx]

Wanna take bets?

Why do you think this is the case?

[CO Liberal]

38. Just a Feeling

I just believe that more racists own guns than don't.

[MrBenchley]

44. There's a reason

white supremacists and the KKK hand out literature at gun shows...

[DarkPhenyx]

48. Pathetic.

They also recruit at church. and at school. and at most of your local civic groups.

[MrBenchley]

52. DO they?

Where is this? They're certainly not at any church, school or civic group I've ever heard of.

You got white supremacists handing out hate literature at your local public school?

[DarkPhenyx]

53. Are you a good candidate for a WS group?

If you aren't then there is an excellent chance you would even know they were there. They won't approach you, most of the time, if they don't think you are a potential new member.

Not only are there WS groups handing out literature and recruiting, but there are black power groups doing the same thing. You have "Indian First" groups recruiting in and around the reservations.

[MrBenchley]

57. Yeah sure....

And Wayne LaPierre is Queen of the May...

[DarkPhenyx]

59. What is the basis of your disbelief...

...in my assertion? What is it that makes you discount the existance of these types of people in places that you wouldn't think of?

[MrBenchley]

63. Perhaps it's that

you're so quick to discount the one place they are pretty much guaranteed to be found: handing out literature at gun shows.

[Spoonman]

68. That's funny

I've been to at least 20 gun shows in Houston (One of the largest in the US), and I have NEVER seen anyone handing out such literature.

I guess if you believe in something hard enough and long enough you can convince yourself of anything.

[DarkPhenyx]

70. Prehaps becasue I live in the South...

...the place you say all us Redneck Racist Gun Owners live, and I've rarely seen them there. I go to the gun show here locally every year.

Interestingly enough when I went to highschool in OH we borrowed a bass drum for one of our school plays from one of the teachers. It had this written on the drum head. "(insert city name here), OH Chapter of the Knights of the Klu Klux Klan" or something similar. Found out later on that this individual had done some recruiting at the school.

Now, as you felt it necessary to put words in my mouth, I must correct you by pointing out that never said that they didn't hand out literature at gun shows. Please point out where I did and I'll recant plus conceed you the point.

[CO Liberal]

72. I've Never Seen White Supremicists......

...handing out literature at any church, school, or civic organization that I've attended. But I KNOW they set up booths at many gun shows.

[DarkPhenyx]

74. And I have personal experience with them at...

...churches and schools. I can think of maybe one, maybe two, occassions where I saw literature at a gun show, and none where I saw an actual booth.

[MrBenchley]

92. You might recall

one of the things that knocked that asswipe Darrel Issa out of the California recall race was a video of him posing with a swastika at a Califorrnia gun show..

[DarkPhenyx]

98. and your point is?

or are you simply making an observation that has no bearing on the discussion again.

[CO Liberal]

101. The Point Is, Why Was The Swastika There?

If it wasn't a welcome sight.

[MrBenchley]

105. This "what could it possibly mean?" act

has gotten old...FAST.

[DarkPhenyx]

107. all you did was say...

..."hey, here was this picture."

You didn't say anything else, so I wanted to know what your point was behind the post. Why was it important to your argument? How does it prove that all gun owners are racist?

[CO Liberal]

111. It Doesn't Prove ALL Gun Owners Are Racists

But it shows that SOME are.

[DarkPhenyx]

113. Which I have never argued.

Some people who aren't gun owners are racist as well.

Now. That being said...linking gun ownership and racism is disingenious at best...downright dishonest at worst.

[DarkPhenyx]

106. Becuase for some there it was welcome.

For others it wasn't. Some people there would like seeing a UN flag. Others are going to object.

I go to pagan events where my anti-Bush bumper stickers draw heat.

So, again, I ask...what is the point of the post?

[Spoonman]

84. Yea Surrrrrrre..........

It's funny how these shows all seem to have one thing in common.
RULES!

VIRGINIA GUN COLLECTORS ASSOCIATION
GUN SHOW RULES & GUIDELINES
IV. EXHIBIT GUIDELINES
B. Prohibited Categories: The following categories are prohibited. The list is not intended to be all inclusive; it is intended to indicate typical materials which may not be displayed at VGCA shows.
7. Flags (except U.S. and state properly displayed)
12. Mercenary (Soldier of Fortune) type publications
14. Nazi, neo-Nazi, KKK, etc. items and literature

http://www.vgca.org/Events/shows/Rules.htm

Here’s one of the largest shows in the nation

National - GREAT WESTERN SHOW INFORMATION & RULES

Strictly forbidden are: communist or third Reich items of any nature glorifying, perpetuating, propagating propaganda items or displays of any hate material (race, religion, color, sex, etc.). Any of the above-mentioned items found on or under an exhibitor's table must be removed immediately or expulsion from the Show without refund will result. Contact Show Management immediately should you feel that any of your merchandise might fall under this category.

http://www.greatwesternshow.com/

Las Vegas - GUN SHOW RULES & REGULATIONS

II. No Nazi material that glorifies this era. Nothing that gives the feeling to the public that the show or its participants adhere to this line of thinking.

III. No anarchist books, destructive device or bomb material, bomb parts, gun parts designed to circumvent Class 3 laws, machine gun conversion parts, grenades, rockets, shells or ammunition for anything other than small arms. This does not include deactivated Civil War shell, balls, cannon barrels or Gatling guns. Machine guns being displayed must have the proper licenses, permits, etc. displayed with them. They must be displayed with the understanding by the public they are for display only. If any are for sale then the public must be made aware that proper licensing must be adhered to prior to any sale.

IV. Anti-Clinton, A.T.F., sexist, anti-government materials of any kind including videos, books, bumper stickers, T-shirts should not be allowed.

V. No dealing outside the building in parking lots, etc. Security should check this on a regular basis.

http://okcgs.com/xrules.htm


Georgia - Eastman Gun Shows

Anything NAZI other than guns, swords or daggers. Nothing will be allowed in the show that glorifies the NAZI era.

http://www.eastmangunshows.com/dealers/rules.htm

[MrBenchley]

89. TOO TOO funny--"typical materials"

Why do you suppose they have to prohibit these things at gun shows and not at, say, the Hummel Collectors Convention?

"No Nazi material that glorifies this era."
So ordinary Nazi material is hunky-dory...ho-kay.

[Spoonman]

94. What ever

It still demonstrates that your previous assertions were WRONG!

[CO Liberal]

90. Four Shows Out Of HOW MANY?????

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm????

BTW, if no one was looking to exhibit that crap at gun shows, they wouldn't have to make laws prohibiting it, would they???

Face it - gun lovers are a proven market for Nazi stuff.

[MrBenchley]

93. Funny...

When we had a craft show around here, the promoters didn't have to warn those people in writing about hate literature or Nazi crap. But then only decent people were expected at the craft show...not racist psychos.

[Spoonman]

97. Way to many examples to list

but I guess some of you will never get it unless it's shoved down your throat with force.

How many would you like? 20, 30 there all out there. Go get the info yourself, I've made my point, refuting the statements made earlier.

[DarkPhenyx]

102. No, Nazi and racists...

...are a proven market for that stuff. Some of them happen to be at gun shows. Nobody here has said that they aren't.

[DarkPhenyx]

45. So it would be your opinion then.

Fair enough. Since it can't really be proved one way or another there isn't anyplace to go with this portion of the thread. Outside of the wording of your opinion, I have a feeling that there are too many points of contention behind it to go into here.

[Township75]

56. Well, duh!

Seeing how there aren't enough Million Moron Marchers to have a BINGO game much less a march, of course there will be more.

I bet there will be more racists at Million Moron March than at a ASDFC&#$fAFRE For President meeting too...not too many at the ASDFC&#$fAFRE For President meetings.

[CO Liberal]

20. Here Are Some Examples From Here On DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=17703

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=15114

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=8533

[el_gato]

27. prime example

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=20336&mesg_id=20336

"We've seen the sort of ugly racist scum (Lott, Hatch, Nugent, Pratt, Duke, etc.) who push the dishonest "gun rights" agenda..."
mr. b, at the start of his threads

[MrBenchley]

33. So gato....

...what about that IS NOT true? Lott, Hatch, Nugent, Pratt, Duke and a host of other racists ARE all trumpeting that dishonest "gun rights agenda".

[el_gato]

67. just laughing at your attempt to link all gun owners with racism

there is nothing dishonest about the right to own a gun

[MrBenchley]

91. Still spinning, eh?

[el_gato]

152. yep it looks like you are still spinning

[CO Liberal]

96. We're Not Linking ALL Gun Owners With Racism

Just pointing out that many of the more visible people on your side are racists.

[MrBenchley]

112. There must be at least ONE gun owner

who has spoken out on one of the gun owners many forums and called for Ted Nugent to publicly apologize or for Larry Pratt to resign from the GOA?

When Dr. Dean made his misstatement about the Confederate flag, Democrats spoke right up. And what Dean said was only insensitive; it wasn't overtly racist.

Funny no gun owner here has been able to link us to such a statement, isn't it?

[CO Liberal]

122. Maybe They're Afraid to Speak Out

Because all of Nugent's and Pratt's fans are heavily armed.

:-)

[DarkPhenyx]

124. Or prehaps they are smart enough to realize that...

...not all gun owners aren't racist and there is no sense saying otherwise? Or the topic hasn't come up?

[CO Liberal]

127. If They Were That Smart.....

... they wouldn't be fans of Nugent or Pratt.

[DarkPhenyx]

128. You are assuming that because they didn't object...

...that they are fans. Big leap of logic there.

You are also assuming that racists are stupid. That is a dangerous assumption to make.

[CO Liberal]

130. Tell Me, How Many Racists are MENSA Members....

...and how many racists are gun group members?

[DarkPhenyx]

133. Oh Christ! Who knows.

Can you answer either question? You might as well ask how many Catholics are racist...or how many Catholics are members of MENSA. I do know that when I was a member of MENSA my local group was 100% white. What does that mean? Absolutely nothing.

[MrBenchley]

131. So they're not racists

but following racists doesn't bother them even a teeny tiny little bit...

Ho-kay...

[DarkPhenyx]

138. Explain please.

Who are they following who is racist?

[el_gato]

157. more phoney talking points

your trying to peddle gun ownership = racism

patently false trash

[MrBenchley]

160. Are they, gato?

If they're phony it ought to be easy for you to prove them false. So let's see any gun owner complaining in public about Ted Nugent's racism.

[el_gato]

162. yes they are

Hell I know alot of gun owners who have never even heard of ted nugent.

So let's see you make a real arguement for once instead of this pathetic guilt by association trash you keep spewing.

[CO Liberal]

168. When One Of The Most Vocal Spokesmen For Your Position.....

...is a racist scumbag like Ted Nugent, it doesn't make your position look very good.

[el_gato]

173. guilt by association is all you have to go on. NEXT!

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[CO Liberal]

180. Your Fellow Pro-Gunners Do It All The Time

Equating all us pro-control folks to Diane Feinstein and Sarah Brady. Or comparing gun control to Nazi Germany.

It's time to get down off your high horse, el_gato. Your side spews more hate-filled rhetoric than my side does.

[el_gato]

182. i speak only for myself

and you can't point to one instance of guilt by association by me

It's time for you to admit you have failed in trying to equate the right to own a gun with racism.

I see you guys are getting desperate now.

Oh, and if scum like the NRA do something does that make it okey for you to do the same? I don't think so, but then again I have high ethical standards.

[CO Liberal]

187. Then USE Those "High Ethical Standards"

And stop attacking those who disagree with you.

[el_gato]

189. Your arguments are phoney and based on guilt by association

and saying so is a highly ethical thing to do

Why should I agree with you? Just because you can't tolerate anyone who doesn't think exactly the way you do?

[CO Liberal]

164. No One Is Saying.....

...that ALL gun owners are racists. Just that many racists are gun owners.

[el_gato]

166. so how does that translate into your anti-gun ownership stance?

as benchly says "phoney gun rights horseshit"

you need to come up with a better argument instead of your phoney guilt by associaton trash

[MrBenchley]

129. LOL!

Or maybe the NRA hasn't told them what to think on the issue....

[CO Liberal]

134. "Can't Think .... Make Head Hurt......"

:-)

[MrBenchley]

136. LOL!

[DarkPhenyx]

137. ah...

...not only racist but unable to think for themselves.

It's no wonder we can never find a midlde ground with the opposition, we can't keep from alinating our own people.

[CO Liberal]

149. So Show Us Where That Statement is Wrong

PRove that Lott, Hatch, Nugent, Pratt, and Duke are NOT racists. I don't believe you can.

[el_gato]

153. i'm sure they are racist, but does that make all gun owners racist?

no, but you would rather argue with your phoney strawman than be honest

NEXT!

[1a2b3c]

103. Its true

I do it all the time. Its called the Jim Crow laws. The very first gun control laws were only in place for slaves. After the slaves were freed the laws were turned into black codes intended for only the free black slaves.

Some find this hard to believe but when you tell those same people that the war on drugs was also racist and meant for one class or race of people they eat it up. Marijuana was made illegal partly to keep the migrant hispanic workers jailed or kept in mexico. Crack has a longer jail sentence then a pure form of cocaine. These are all racist or classist laws the same as bans on affordable handguns is either racist or classist. May issue CCW's, where you have to go before a police officer (white most likely) to be approved to carry a gun. Hispanics in fresno county apply for more CCW permits than all other races combined yet white males hold more permits than all other races combined. Coincidence? Or racist? You decide.

[CO Liberal]

15. It's Been Done Here Over and Over Again

Pro-gunners claiming that all gun control laws are racist. Same old hash re-hashed......

[el_gato]

22. whatever ha ha aha hahahahah

try again

man you two are the masters of projection

sometimes i feel like i'm talking to ann coulter or something

you realy discredit the gun-control crowd

[Spoonman]

24. No CO

"Pro-gunners claiming that all gun control laws are racist."

That is far from true!

The comparison has been made to the past history of racist governments imposing gun control to control a population.

Once again, let’s not try to imply negative connotations from statements that are clear in their implication.

[CO Liberal]

55. It's Closer To The Truth Than You Care to Admit

And it rears its ugly head every time a pro-gunner starts one of those "gon control = racism/classism" threads.

[Spoonman]

65. Admit what?

That there are at least 10 historical examples of gun control implemented by racist governments?

[el_gato]

69. you have attempted to make the racism=guns point repeatedly

phoney phoney phoney

[MrBenchley]

95. And you've done nothing to disprove it

So where are the gun owners complaining about Ted Nugent's racism?

[el_gato]

151. so you admit to your phoney agenda

[MrBenchley]

154. What I've said all along is 100% true.

You can't show us any racists in public life NOT trumpeting this bogus "gun rights" horseshit.

You can't show us ANY gun owners publicly perturbed about the racist statements and actions of the leadership of the two largest gun owners groups.

And all you and the rest of the RKBA crowd can do is desperately distort what I've said.

[el_gato]

161. you have tried to link gun ownership with racism and failed badly

you say crap like " bogus "gun rights" horseshit" so it is clear you hate gun ownership.

so you desperately peddle the all gun owners are racist line
which is demonstrably false.


If you have a problem with the right to own a gun that's fine.
How bout you put forth an honest arguement against that instead of
your phoney guilt by association line?

[MrBenchley]

167. Not even close to true, gato

If anything, I've shown beyond a shadow of a doubt how closely racism and this bogus "gun rights" crap is linked.

"you desperately peddle the all gun owners are racist line"
Nothing desperate about it....I've demonstrated again and again what racist and bigoted pieces of shit the public figures pushing the NRA's phony "gun rights" agenda are. I must admit, though, I AM surprised that there don't seem to be ANY gun owners in the least concerned in public about the disgraceful pedigree of their champions. As far as I'm concerned, if you line up happily behind Ted Nugent and Larry Pratt, you deserve what you get.

And it's telling that the UNhappiness among the RKBA crowd here is not that such repugnant specimens are their public spokespeople, but that anyone should actually notice or point out in public that such creatures ARE the public spokespeople.

"How bout you put forth an honest arguement"
You first, gato. Try dealing with the actual issue instead of trying so furiously to distort what I've actually said.

[el_gato]

170. you say "phoney gun rights" What's phoney about it?

do you hate guns or do you just hate ted nugent?

I'm trying to make sense of your points here.

Does believing in the right ot own a gun mean you support ted nugent, etc.?

You have a problem with the scum who run the NRA and scum like nugent.
Does that mean I should give my gun over to the government?

Please explain.

[MrBenchley]

177. What isn't?

As former Chief Justice Warren Burger said, " has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, repeat the word 'fraud,' on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime."

[el_gato]

181. so you admit you are against the right to own a gun

even if ted nugent etc. did not exist

[DarkPhenyx]

32. Apparently this argument has been made...

...and I missed it. I conceed the point.

It's a stupid fucking argument though. Those making it are idiots with an agenda.

[Spoonman]

3. Gun Racism

I just hate guns, they're all lazy.
They just lay around all day and wait for someone else to feed them!
They're always wanting someone else to wipe thier ass with an oily cloth, once again too lazy to do if for themselves!
The silver ones are the worst, always showing off. You know what I mean, all the useless glitter and shine!
And let's not forget the "magnums", fucking big bullies are all they are. They think they're so superior!
And then theres the shotguns!
Big mouthed bastards, all they want is attention. They hate all the others because they have bigger shells, and some have two barrels!
They're always pumping out the whole we're better than you rifles horseshit!

[MrBenchley]

5. Too too funny

"somehow all gun owners are racist. "
As HAS BEEN POINTED OUT over and over again, all of the racists that can be found, high or low, are spouting that bogus "gun rights" argument. In addition, the leadership of the two largest gun owners groups ARE racists, with hardly a murmur of protest from the gun owners themselves. (There's no "Get Ted Nugent off the NRA board" movement among gun owners...nor is it even mentioned aloud on the internet that I can find). And when an attempt was made to find Democrats who were "pro-gun" it guttered out after about half-a-dozen names, most of whom were Zell Miller-type DINOs. And the most prominent name on that list, Dr. Dean, is much closer to the gun control crowd's position than the RKBA crowd's position here.

Where are the gun owners disgusted with Pratt's racism calling for him to step down? Where are the gun owners calling for Nugent to apologize publicly for the stuff he spouts? Nowhere to be found.

Even the phony gay gun owners group has a list bashing and calling for a boycott of nearly every liberal or progressive pro-gay group or individual that can be found...but doesn't say boo about bigoted right wing loonies who want gay people dead and burning in hell ASAP.

It was the RKBA crowd themselves who posted the Wall Street Journal's account of the Knob Creek jamboree that pointed out some particiapnts were wandering around in Nazi get-up.

"The other is the idea that all gun owners think the NRA is a good organization, and the idea is to bait gun owners into defending the NRA."
No one is forcing the RKBA crowd to leap to the defense of the NRA...yet pretty much everyone of them does.

"In your opinion do you think these types of arguements honest"
They're a lot more honest than the original summation of them is.

[DarkPhenyx]

11. All you are proving here is that...

...a square is a polygon. Not all polygons are squares though.

You are also assuming that all racists are pro gun. This is not necesarily the case. You discount the possibility of anyone that is anti-gun being completely and throughly racist.

Please try to not let your opinion make you sound ill-informed and judgemental. I know you know better.

[MrBenchley]

13. Easy enough to check out...

"You are also assuming that all racists are pro gun. This is not necesarily the case."
Let's see even one that isn't, then. You'd think if it wasn't the case, at least one could be found.

"You discount the possibility of anyone that is anti-gun being completely and throughly racist."
Again, let's see even one.

[DarkPhenyx]

16. OK...here is one answer, and a clarification request.

"You are also assuming that all racists are pro gun. This is not necesarily the case."
Let's see even one that isn't, then. You'd think if it wasn't the case, at least one could be found."

Easily done. Me. I am devoutly pro-gun and not racist. I was also a member of the NRA at one time, but I disagree with the direction some of their policies are headed.

"You discount the possibility of anyone that is anti-gun being completely and throughly racist."
Again, let's see even one.

In your opinion are blacks and other minorities capable of being racist?

[MrBenchley]

21. Hahahahahahaha....

Nice try.

[Spoonman]

29. The duck and run

Can you ever answer a question in open debate, or should we expect this duck and run tactic forever?

[MrBenchley]

35. Spoon....

If I ever get an honest debate tactic from the RKBA crowd, I believe I'll fall off my chair in shock.

[Spoonman]

39. Hit the dirt....

Here come another question.......

[DarkPhenyx]

40. *laughing*

The same is said by those of us who support gun rights. Now...do you want to try and debate the issue or do you want to continue hiding behind your ignorant rantings and inane beliefs?

[DarkPhenyx]

30. WTF?

no response of any merit? Do I assume that I win now?

[MrBenchley]

36. What merited any response from that?

I asked you to produce even one racist who was NOT trumpeting the gun rights horseshit...and your response is that you're not a racist but you believe in gun rights.

As for the second half, where does THAT come from?
"He cain't be no racist, clem....he's a jew! Them folks is all liberals!"

[DarkPhenyx]

41. I asked for a clarification...

...and you chose not to answer. I assume that means I won the discussion. Now, if I am wrong please answer the question.

[MrBenchley]

46. Assume away...

It's clear what a load of spin and hooey any "discussion" with you amounts to...

[DarkPhenyx]

49. OK, you lose I win.

Thank you for playing.

Too bad really. I was hoping you'd be willing to actually have a discussion instead of choosing not to. How sad.

[Spoonman]

47. Yea MrBenchley

"He cain't be no racist, clem....he's a jew! Them folks is all liberals!"

That's how we all talk down here in the south.

Causen we ain't had us no prawper edumacation an all that faincy stuff you boys up north got.

To bad it's coming across as extremely bigoted and stereotypical from someone trying to paste the "racist" label on others!

[el_gato]

14. you are again avoiding the issues

guilt by association and the crude lumping of people into some monolithic entity is all you have to peddle.

if you want to bash the NRA go ahead but that does not mean
that all gun owners support he NRA. I happen to think that
organization sucks, but that doesn't have any effect on my
views of gun ownership.

So do you have anything better to offer?

[MrBenchley]

28. I'm not avoiding any issue, gato

"if you want to bash the NRA go ahead but that does not mean
that all gun owners support he NRA."
Gee, I've never said that all gun owners support the NRA...in fact, I've consistently posted the polls from The Joyce Foundation and the NORC, as well as other sources, showing MORE THAN HALF OF GUN OWNERS SUPPORT GUN CONTROL. It's not my doing that every thread about the NRA instantly erupts with squalls of rage from the RKBA crowd.

[el_gato]

31. whatever, your trying to change the subject

[foxy]

34. Just at a loss for something of real merit to input maybe?

Conversation ain't going the right direction? Time for a new one.

GOOD LUCK

[MrBenchley]

42. No I'm not...

Show us any gun owners on any gun owners forum complaining about the overt racism of Ted Nugent or Larry Pratt.

[MrBenchley]

50. No, I'm happy to stay on this subject

Show us the gun owners complaining aloud about the open racism of the NRA board....

It's not like there's any shortage of gun owner sites full of gun owner "opinion"

[el_gato]

155. prove all gun owners are racist NRA supporters

you can't

[MrBenchley]

159. Gato, nobody's made that claim but you

But I'd sure love for somebody to show me any gun owner or gun owner group even pretending to be the least perturbed about the open racism of Ted Nugent or Larry Pratt...

You'd think that if all gun owners are not racist, at least ONE would be on record in public somewhere complaining about it. Yet so far, we yet to see even a SINGLE example...although certainnly there's no shortage of gun owner sites where gun owners freely express the NRA's, I mean, their opinion.

[el_gato]

165. take a look at your own statements bench

"You'd think that if all gun owners are not racist, at least ONE would be on record in public somewhere complaining about it."

Do you understand logic?

We have said a million times here that owning a gun does not make you a racist.

We even acknowledge the fact that nugent and some of those other scumbags are racist.

Does that prove that believing in the right to own a gun is a racist act? NO.

So now you try to twist the issue into proving that "all gun owners are not racist" Please take logic 101 and come back.

[MrBenchley]

169. Hahahahahahahaha....

"You'd think that if all gun owners are not racist, at least ONE would be on record in public somewhere complaining about it."
Yup. It ought to be easy enough for you gun owners to post a link to that mythical anti-racist gun owner....but I yet to see even an attempt to do so.

And bear in mind, if the claim that plenty of gun owners are not racist were true, such statements would be all over the web. After all, there's no shortage of gun owners on the web spouting NRA propagand--I mean, their own opinons.

[el_gato]

172. so you can't prove your own assertions

I'm a gun owner, does that make me racist?

Was malcolm X a Klan member?

again your arguments have been a disasterous failure.

[MrBenchley]

179. I more than proved them...

"I'm a gun owner, does that make me racist?"
You tell me....why is it you don't seem in the least upset by racists such as Larry Pratt or Ted Nugent? But you've devoted hundreds of posts to bitching about them being identified publicly AS racists. Which they are.

"Was malcolm X a Klan member?"
What a silly question, gato. But if you've read his autobiography you know that Malcolm X WAS virulently racist most of his life and admitted it, and also explicitly rejected that racism late in life, just before he was shot to death.

[el_gato]

188. you have proved nothing

in fact in other posts i have called nugent racist scum
and bashed the NRA but you conveniently ignore that for
the sake of you phoney argument. Why?


Yes Malcolm X rejected racism. I'm glad you admit that.
If someone was shooting at you would you want to shoot back
or just spout anti-gun rhetoric while they shoot at you?

[MrBenchley]

194. Too too funny, gato

"in fact in other posts i have called nugent racist scum
and bashed the NRA"
Show us.

"[]iYes Malcolm X rejected racism. I'm glad you admit that."
I never denied it. And even he admitted he had been a racist.

[el_gato]

195. here open your eyes and take a look

my postings 182, 170, and even my opening post
bashes the nra and ted nugent

so it's time we moved on to the fact that you are simply against the right to own a gun.

why are you against gun ownership?

and no i'm not talking about ted nugent, i'm talking about why you don't want people to own guns.

[MrBenchley]

196. Three in this THREAD only

too little......too late.

[el_gato]

198. is that the best you can do?

puhleeze
:eyes:

[Spoonman]

37. "polls from The Joyce Foundation"

"showing MORE THAN HALF OF GUN OWNERS SUPPORT GUN CONTROL"
We've been down this road before.... lot's of flat tires for the "Joyce Foundation" who want a total ban.
They're polls are as useful as tits on a hog!

[DarkPhenyx]

43. I also support gun control.

Now...what part of that is hard to understand? Believing that gun ownership should be protected does not mean that you necessarily believe that unrestricted gun ownership is the only other alternative to banning them outright.

Anytime you apply black and white thinking like that to an argument you are already wrong.

[Spoonman]

51. I have been clear in my stance

Sensible gun control laws are fine with me. We have plenty of them "on the books" already.
The solution is not more laws, it is enforcing the ones in place already.

Mandatory SEVER sentencing for criminal acts committed with a firearm, child safety laws etc..

99.9 % of what the gun grabbers want as “new” is not “control”, it is elimination!

[DarkPhenyx]

54. And I won't argue there.

However we are now well off the thread I think.

Since, from your current statement, we can assume that you are at least somewhat pro-gun is it your opinion that people who are pro-gun are racist? This being one of the original point that was brought up in the original post.

[Spoonman]

61. Of course not

As with any group of people there are going to be diversity which results is various "sub-groups".
While I and those on this board IMO are not racist, there are pro gun people out there who are. This does not logically equate to the broad brush accusations presented by some.
On the other side of the coin, the same logic applies. There would most certainly have to be anti-gun people who are racist as well.
The labeling tactic is similar to the playing of the "race card" whether substantiated or not, and when nothing else is working for your argument. It is IMO a desperate attempt to discredit, or draw attention away from, the valid arguments presented by those who disagree with another’s opinion.

For the record, I am not and never have been a member of the NRA. Even though I have made this very clear on numerous occasions, one must continuously restate these things on this board.
I believe that group to be too involved with the Republicans to properly reflect the opinions expressed by myself. They share some of the same beliefs in relation to the 2nd Amendment, safety and training, but I have issues with many of their leaders.

[DarkPhenyx]

62. OK. we re in agreement then.

Yours is a nice succint way of saying things I've pointed out many times in conversations and posts. Unfortunately that tactic is used by way too many people on both sides of the fence and includes such tried and true labels as "sexist", "homophobe", "commie", "anti-American", and many others.

[Warpy]

9. When I lived in Boston

...I was vehemently antigun. It is completely inappropriate to own projectile weapons in such a crowded area, where anyone is likely to get shot by a wild round when a panicked gun owner thinks he's gonna get brave and protect his family (or likelier, get drunk and shoot them). The problem with having guns illegal in Boston but legal at gun shows elsewhere is that there's a pipeline of guns purchased legally in other states and run into Boston (and other northeastern cities with stiff gun laws) and sold for an obscene profit. Most of these guns come from Dixie. Hence, the link between racist rednecks and guns. It's a tenuous link, but geographically, a sound one.

As for the NRA, it was once a proud and decent organization, promoting gun safety and providing gun safety courses. It has degenerated into shilling for the gun manufacturers and the GOP.

Now, nobody wants guns in the hands of psychotics, felons, children, batterers, and others who are likely to use them wrongly. However, the NRA, in its shirll propaganda offerings, is against any sensible regulation of firearms to keep them out of the hands of the above. Filing the distinct "fingerprint" each gun makes before sale so that guns used in crimes can more easily be traced has been loudly opposed by manufacturers and the NRA alike. One would almost think the NRA is in business to protect the felon to the detriment of the larger society!

Since I've moved to bear, cougar and rattlesnake country, I've softened my position against guns. I won't own one myself, but I certainly realize that people in the boonies need them. My position against what the NRA has become has not changed.

Let the flames begin.

[DarkPhenyx]

19. So in your opinion...

Most of these guns come from Dixie. Hence, the link between racist rednecks and guns. It's a tenuous link, but geographically, a sound one.

All southerners are racist? All rednecks are racist? Hell, you seem to be of the opinion that all southerners are rednecks.

Filing the distinct "fingerprint" each gun makes before sale so that guns used in crimes can more easily be traced has been loudly opposed by manufacturers and the NRA alike.

Have you looked into the reasons why they are against it? I agree the fingerprinting is something that can and should be done, however their arguments against it do have some merit.

[TexasMexican]

58. racism???

Whats this crap about gun owners and racism.

I'm hispanic and while I'm sure some gun owners are racist but why should that matter to me?

If the extent of thier "racism" is just talking shit then it doesnt really matter, if the extent of thier racism is trying to kill me well atleast I will have the means to reply in kind (unlike those who are unarmed).

[DarkPhenyx]

60. Apparently the statement has been made that...

...gun owners are racist. It, apparently, has also been said that people wanting to ban guns are racist. Yes...it's confusing.

[MrBenchley]

64. By the way

worth noting that fifty or so posts after my response, nobody has been able to refute the first part of it by:

a) producing a racist public figure not in favor of gun rights, or

b) producing a gun owner or group of gun owners publicly complaining (or even slightly concerned) about the open racism of figures such as Larry Pratt and Ted Nugent.

[Spoonman]

71. I'll bet this guy is on the KKK mailing list

I'm sure he's been a guest speaker at some of there gatherings!
http://www.blackmanwithagun.com/

And how about these people...
You know, something tells me you won't see these guys running around with the shaved head groups!

http://www.jpfo.org/

[DarkPhenyx]

80. Point of order...

...just because they are black or jewish does not mean that they aren't racist.

[CO Liberal]

81. How Appropriate, Spoonman

That was your 666th post.

:-)

[Spoonman]

86. Sorry,

I don't subscribe to that line of thinking either!

[MrBenchley]

100. Don't know whether he's a racist...

but he's certainly a phony created by a right wing "institute".....

Look at this...

http://www.imakenews.com/ontarget/e_article000118313.cfm

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/01/10/ar_northbridge.htm

http://www.badnarik.org/news/01112003.html

Wonder who's funding these bozos?

http://www.northbridgetraining.com/home.html

[Spoonman]

110. A phony

OK let's all take a vacation to gun grabbers fantasy land!

What happened to your original statement, how funny the topic changes so easily with you.

[MrBenchley]

115. Yeah, a phony...

"What happened to your original statement"
Here it is....

As HAS BEEN POINTED OUT over and over again, all of the racists that can be found, high or low, are spouting that bogus "gun rights" argument. In addition, the leadership of the two largest gun owners groups ARE racists, with hardly a murmur of protest from the gun owners themselves. (There's no "Get Ted Nugent off the NRA board" movement among gun owners...nor is it even mentioned aloud on the internet that I can find). And when an attempt was made to find Democrats who were "pro-gun" it guttered out after about half-a-dozen names, most of whom were Zell Miller-type DINOs. And the most prominent name on that list, Dr. Dean, is much closer to the gun control crowd's position than the RKBA crowd's position here.

Where are the gun owners disgusted with Pratt's racism calling for him to step down? Where are the gun owners calling for Nugent to apologize publicly for the stuff he spouts? Nowhere to be found.

Even the phony gay gun owners group has a list bashing and calling for a boycott of nearly every liberal or progressive pro-gay group or individual that can be found...but doesn't say boo about bigoted right wing loonies who want gay people dead and burning in hell ASAP.

It was the RKBA crowd themselves who posted the Wall Street Journal's account of the Knob Creek jamboree that pointed out some particiapnts were wandering around in Nazi get-up.

[Spoonman]

121. Yea right

And yet you still can't see through the fog, or is that steam from the pile of hooey?

So I guess we should all believe it's legal to carry a concealed handgun into an amusement park in Texas too?
What a laugh!

[el_gato]

73. but does that mean if you own a gun you are racist?

NO


more red herrings from benchly

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
:crazy:

[CO Liberal]

75. Conversely......

....if you're for gun control, are you a racist????

HELL, NO!!!!!

[el_gato]

77. nobody made that arguement

have fun beating up or your strawman

[CO Liberal]

82. It's Been Made Here Before

It'll be made here again........

[DarkPhenyx]

78. If you are going to limit to racist public figures...

...IOW the loud and annoying people that get all the press, then it isn't likely that you will find one. However that was not what you originally said.

Even if we cannot find one it still does not prove that all gun owners are racist. Nor does it disprove that all racists are gun owners.

Now, I already addressed your second point. I am a gun owner, and the racism of people like Nugent, be it open racism or hidden racism, bothers me a great deal. There are other gun onwers on this list who feel the same way. As we are all memebrs of DU that, by definition, makes us a group of gun owners bothered by racism.

[CO Liberal]

83. But As Long as Racists Like Nugent Are Spokemen For Your Side....

...your side will be considered racist by some.

[Emoto]

85. Only by shallow thinkers

nt

[DarkPhenyx]

87. That would be the same argument that...

...Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh use to demonize liberals. Find teh one whacko on the opposition side and use it to paint broadly everyone on that side.

Aren't we supposed to be better than that?

[CO Liberal]

148. Many Pro-Gunners Use Feinstein & Brady All the Time

...to portray all pro-control folks. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

[MrBenchley]

150. And bear in mind

that NOTHING about Feinstein & Brady is in the least bit racist, extremist or insane. Cointrast THAT with Nugent and Pratt.

[MrBenchley]

108. Hahahahahahaha...

"I am a gun owner, and the racism of people like Nugent, be it open racism or hidden racism, bothers me a great deal. There are other gun onwers on this list who feel the same way."
Evidently not enough to remark upon it aloud to any other gun owner on any gun owner forum....

[DarkPhenyx]

114. Please prove your final point.

n/t

[MrBenchley]

117. The ball's in YOUR court

Ought to be easy for you to link to one of your posts expressing your outrage over Nugent's overt racism on a gun owner forum somewhere.

[DarkPhenyx]

120. It would be...

...if I belonged to one.

As you seem to belong to all of them however, and read each and every post, it would be much easier for you to do so.

<on edit>

The absence of a post from these sites does not prove anything though. You wanted gun owners who disagreed with Ted. You have several right here.

[MrBenchley]

135. Hahahahahahahaha....

"As you seem to belong to all of them however"
Jeeze, it's amazing what that newfangled "google" invention can fool people into thinking...

"and read each and every post"
I've read enough to turn my stomach....but then I know what a steaming pantload this gun rights crap is....and what kind of specimens are pushing it.

"The absence of a post from these sites does not prove anything though."
Sure it does...it proves that this "gun owners are not racist" claim is based more on wishful thinking than anything else.

"You wanted gun owners who disagreed with Ted. You have several right here."
No big deal being brave over here.....this is a website that's anti-racist by definition. But it's telling that nobody can point to any posts by any gun owners complaining even slightly about the open and virulent racism that infests the leadership of BOTH of the two largest gun owner groups.

Indeed, outside this thread and your johnny come lately murmurs, you won't even find many here.

[DarkPhenyx]

139. "I've read enough to turn my stomach...."

which is exactly what the conservatives say about sites like DU. Nice to knwo you are as narrowminded and backwards thinking as they are.

""The absence of a post from these sites does not prove anything though."
Sure it does...it proves that this "gun owners are not racist" claim is based more on wishful thinking than anything else."

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no it dosen't. Your wanting them to be is wishful thinking though. It would make your world view so much easier to bear adn you wouldn't have to question it at all. Unfortunately it dosen't work like that, and you are wrong. Sorry.

"this is a website that's anti-racist by definition."

Not according to some threads. We're also sexist and homophobic here too.

Your complete lack of supporting evidence and twisted logic astounds me.

[MrBenchley]

144. Gee, what a silly post.

"which is exactly what the conservatives say about sites like DU."
Gee, by that logic, anyone opposed to Nazis is as bad as the Nazis. More of that RKBA "logic"--glad I don't have any.

"Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no it dosen't."
Then it ought to be easy to show gun owners condemning the open racism of, say, Ted Nugent, on some gun owners forum. The NRA enemies list has been all over the news and contained the name of just about every group that's opposed to bigotry and working for tolerance and racial justice. I'm sure all these non-racist gun owners must have been outraged by that.

"Your complete lack of supporting evidence and twisted logic astounds me."
Considering that you have NO ecidence and are desperately TWISTING logic here, I'm less than floored by the charge....

[el_gato]

158. again more efforts to lump all gun owners with nugent etc.

please find a better line, you have failed

try a new tactic

[MrBenchley]

171. Your turn, gato...

Show us some gun owners somewhere on some gun owners site saying loud and clear they condemn racist pieces of shit like Nugent.

Even your phony-baloney Blanchard hasn't got a word to say about Nugent saying black folks have bones in their nose...or Pratt addressing the Aryan Nation....although he's got plenty of time to squawk about the NAACP.

[el_gato]

174. So you aviod the subject

I don't even know who this blanchard is.

guilt by association is all you have to peddle

Please come up with a better argument.

[MrBenchley]

186. Too too funny, gato

"Please come up with a better argument."
You first.

[el_gato]

190. i beleive in the right to own a gun

and it has nothing at all to do with nugent or the nra

your turn

[TexasMexican]

79. MrBenchley

a)Hitler wasnt in favor of gun rights.
b)Why should I be concerned about what they say when I am armed?

[MrBenchley]

109. Tex....

"a)Hitler wasnt in favor of gun rights."
Sez you. The actual loonies calling themselves Nazis say different. And they are in favor of gun rights....as are the KKK, the Aryan Nations, the World Church of the Creator, David Duke, Ted Nugent, Larrry Pratt, Pat Buchanan, Jerry Falwell, John AshKKKroft, Trent Lott, John Lott, Sean Hannity, Bob Barr, etc., etc., etc...

"b)Why should I be concerned about what they say when I am armed?"
Hey, if it don't bother you when the people representing gun owners spout bigotry and racism, it's no skin off my nose. But then don't start bitching when I point out you guys are represented by some of the scummiest people on the planet, and seem pretty pleased about it too.

[el_gato]

66. okay I just got back from lunch

66 posts so far, not bad

[el_gato]

76. my last post before i leave for the day

benchly et. al. have utterly failed in an attempt at
linking racism with gun ownership
as well as linking everyone who owns a gun with
the corrupt leadership of the NRA

some gun owners are racist yes
but that is not a requirement to own a gun or
beleive in the right to own one

same for the nra issue

i'm going to drink some beer now

c ya tomorrow

[beevul]

88. dishonest

n/t

[DarkPhenyx]

99. What is?

fair warning. I think the posting rules require that you post something more than a simple "one word reply". You might wnat to check it out. Besides, one word replys are soooooooooo boring! :)

[CO Liberal]

104. Wrong.

[DarkPhenyx]

116. What's wrong?

Please be more specific. It would be nice to know.

[MrBenchley]

118. What?

[CO Liberal]

123. I Was Making a Point With a One-Word Response

It's not a violation of DU rules, as you maintained.

[beevul]

125. Clarification and apologies

"In your opinion do you think these types of arguements honest or dishonest?"


I was in a hurry, had to pick up number 1 daughter at school....drama class....apologies for the brevity. I was just answering the above Q.

Dishonest with extreme prejudice.

Besides, being new here, I didn't want to jump too far into the fray just yet.....8)

[CO Liberal]

126. No Apologies Needed

Regardless of what some people think, there's nothing in the DU rules that prohibits one-word responses. In fact, many a time I've simply replied with the word "Bullshit".

:-)

[DarkPhenyx]

132. Wasn't there something added about post length?

I could be wrong, but I seem to remember something about it a couple months ago. Regardless. One word responses are entirely not helpful. My opinion is that even a simple post like "bullshit" should carry an explaination of exactly why you think that is the case. Otherwise you may as well not have taken the time to post anything at all.

[beevul]

141. It is understood

That it may not be in the rules, but IS helpful for correct interpretation of ones meaning, to make clear ones position.I think I get what you both are getting at.

In this case I probably should have said that mudslinging,
demonizing,and the like, are in the poorest of taste (IMO)
and typically have the effect of making this stuck-in-the-middle independent voter turn against or further against the source of said mudslinging or demonizing.

Reguardless of who is doing it, or what they're for or against.

[CO Liberal]

119. I Just Did a Google Search on "guns + racist"

And I found all kinds of pages claiming that gun control is racist - all from right-wing wacko sites. And in the middle of it all, I found this story from a few years back. It's gun owners like this that give all owners a bad name. - Wayne

Gun seller in racist shooting spree released from custody

Authorities want to know if Fiessinger supplied weapons to other racist extremists

Shooting suspect's computer confiscated

July 8, 1999

Web posted at: 11:05 p.m. EDT (0305 GMT)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In this story:

Newspaper ad reportedly led Smith to guns

Suspect mailed letter day shootings began

Anti-hate group says letter may be fake

Hale suspected Smith was shooter

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From staff and wire reports

PEORIA, Illinois (CNN) -- A man charged with illegally selling white supremacist Benjamin Smith the firearms that he allegedly used in a deadly shooting spree targeting blacks, Jews and Asians was released Thursday on his own recognizance.

Authorities had asked the judge to hold unlicensed gun dealer Donald R. Fiessinger, 64, until they had a chance to review his gun sale records.

<more>

http://www.cnn.com/US/9907/08/illinois.shootings.03/

[DarkPhenyx]

140. So?

I have already agreed that there are people out there who are gun owners that are racist.

[MrBenchley]

142. Incidentally

it's still worth noting that a hundred adn twenty or so posts in, nobody has been able to:

a) produce a racist public figure not in favor of gun rights, or

b) produce a gun owner or group of gun owners publicly complaining (or even slightly concerned) on a gun owners forum about the open racism of figures such as Larry Pratt and Ted Nugent.

Wonder why that is?

[DarkPhenyx]

143. Nor have you proven any of your points.

Which I believe is far more telling of your position than anything.

[MrBenchley]

145. I certainly have

MrBenchley  (1000+ posts) Tue Nov-11-03 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. Too too funny
"somehow all gun owners are racist. "
As HAS BEEN POINTED OUT over and over again, all of the racists that can be found, high or low, are spouting that bogus "gun rights" argument. In addition, the leadership of the two largest gun owners groups ARE racists, with hardly a murmur of protest from the gun owners themselves. (There's no "Get Ted Nugent off the NRA board" movement among gun owners...nor is it even mentioned aloud on the internet that I can find). And when an attempt was made to find Democrats who were "pro-gun" it guttered out after about half-a-dozen names, most of whom were Zell Miller-type DINOs. And the most prominent name on that list, Dr. Dean, is much closer to the gun control crowd's position than the RKBA crowd's position here.
Where are the gun owners disgusted with Pratt's racism calling for him to step down? Where are the gun owners calling for Nugent to apologize publicly for the stuff he spouts? Nowhere to be found.

Even the phony gay gun owners group has a list bashing and calling for a boycott of nearly every liberal or progressive pro-gay group or individual that can be found...but doesn't say boo about bigoted right wing loonies who want gay people dead and burning in hell ASAP.

It was the RKBA crowd themselves who posted the Wall Street Journal's account of the Knob Creek jamboree that pointed out some particiapnts were wandering around in Nazi get-up.

"The other is the idea that all gun owners think the NRA is a good organization, and the idea is to bait gun owners into defending the NRA."
No one is forcing the RKBA crowd to leap to the defense of the NRA...yet pretty much everyone of them does.

[el_gato]

163. so you have failed

you can't prove all gun owners are racist and you can't prove there is some kind of inherent link between gun owership and racism

so now you come up with phoney garbage like this:
"No one is forcing the RKBA crowd to leap to the defense of the NRA...yet pretty much everyone of them does."

re-read my opening post:

"I personally think the NRA is another corrupt organization that is a political pawn kinda like these religeous conservative fundy organizations that support bush even though he is anything but a good christian."

Of course you have to ignore it, to continue your mythical arguments.

[demsrule4life]

146. I have my own way

they don't get none of my money. :)

[el_gato]

156. so you have utterly failed to prove all gun owners are racist

why do you continue to avoid the subject?

because your peddling phoney arguements

[MrBenchley]

175. Not even close to true.

"why do you continue to avoid the subject?"
I've been right on the subject consistently. And it's VERY telling you haven't even tried to show us a gun owner at a gun owner's site condemning the racism of Nugent and Pratt.


"you have utterly failed to prove all gun owners are racist"
If nothing else, it seems I'm a fair way along proving no gun owners are sufficiently troubled by open racism to ever speak out condemning it to their peers.

[el_gato]

184. why do you continue to avoid the issue

instead you continue to spew the guilt by association trash

Was Malcom X a Klan member?

[CandyCrim21]

147. Propaganda!

As for gun ownership being connected with racism, I think thats one of the biggest myths I've ever heard. I don't know about all that propaganda about the NRA popping up the same year that the KKK was banned but how long ago was that, seriosly?! People grow, they change just like the times. Some people just enjoy the reacreation. Some like to collect. Most of the people I know don't even know that the NRA sprung out of no where after the KKK was banned. They don't care either. I cant speak for everyone but in my own opinion I think thats crap.

As for the other thing. I, myself, am not a gun owner but I was raised around them, my dad owns many and I may own one someday, who knows. But as far as some people are concerned the NRA is just a place to go out and shoot their guns. Not a place to go out and support Bush. Trust me, if that was the issue I think MANY people would cancel there membership to the NRA. I don't really think its a good organization, but I don't really think its a bad organization either. The people that piss me off are the gun nuts at protest rallys waving there guns in the air shouting about the second amendment and there constitutional rights. No body is going to take the guns. Obviously. All these people do is increase gun sales and desires to own guns because they hype up the idea so much, the idea about protecting themselves. Maybe if the media didn't scare the shit out of everyone so much people wouldn't have to own something so powerful to protect themselves. Then the NRA wouldn't have as many people to target with all of their nonsence. Not that I see that happening any time soon, but damn. If you want to hunt, hunt. If you want to collect, collect. But there really is no need to make a mountain into a mo hill.

Overall: Both assumptions, in my opinion, dishonest.

[MrBenchley]

176. By the way

it's still worth noting that a hundred and seventy-five or so posts in, nobody has been able to:

a) produce a racist public figure not in favor of gun rights, or

b) produce a gun owner or group of gun owners publicly complaining (or even slightly concerned) on a gun owners forum about the open racism of figures such as Larry Pratt and Ted Nugent.

Nobody has even attempted to.

Wonder why that is?

[el_gato]

178. because it's a phoney argument

nugent is racist trash

the NRA is a corrupt organization

I'm still keeping my gun benchly.

can you come up with a better argument against gun ownership?

[slackmaster]

183. Because nobody is buying your silly argument in the first place

Your constant displays of prejudice aren't swaying anyone to join your crusade.

[MrBenchley]

185. Too TOO funny, slack

"Your constant displays of prejudice"
Jeepers, I'm not the one lined up behind Ted Nugent here....or the one trying to spin away his leadership of the nation's largest gun owners' group.

[el_gato]

191. why do you continue to use guilt by association?

You are the one trying, so desperately, to paint any one who owns a gun with ted nugent.

If I say ted nugent is racist trash. (which I have)
And I also say I support the right to own a gun.
then how can you make the assertion that:
"Jeepers, I'm not the one lined up behind Ted Nugent here"

Why do you continue to make this phoney argument?

You and co have your backs against the wall now.
Is it because you have to fight the straw man instead of the real issue which is you don't beleive in the right to own a gun.

[CO Liberal]

192. You're Wrong, El Gato

Don't put words in my mouth. I am NOT against the right to own a gun - I'm against guns in the hands of those who should not have them, such as criminals, the mentally ill, and those with histories of domestic violence.

I guess lying about your opponent's position fits in with your "high ethical standards"????

[MrBenchley]

193. Too too funny, gato

"If I say ted nugent is racist trash. (which I have)
And I also say I support the right to own a gun."
Big Deal. Considering how desperately you've distrorted and spun what CO Liberal and I say, I'm content to make the points I've made and let you stew.

How many gun owners ARE lined up behind Ted Nugent, who is on the NRA's board, along with a number of other odious specimens? How many are lined up behind Larry Pratt, who is even scummier? Even a majority of gun owners support gun control.

And it's very telling that we can't even find even a single gun owner on a gun owner's forum saying boo about this "racist scum." And YOU know that's true.

[el_gato]

197. what a pathetic joke

here you try to smear gun owners:

"How many gun owners ARE lined up behind Ted Nugent, who is on the NRA's board, along with a number of other odious specimens? How many are lined up behind Larry Pratt, who is even scummier? Even a majority of gun owners support gun control."

I don't care how many gun ownwers blah blah blah

I believe in the right to own a gun. If you have a problem with that come out and say it.

I am agaist letting this fascist government control gun ownership.
You apparently worship big brother.

[otohara]

199. Locking

This thread has degenerated into a series of personal attacks. Please feel free to start a new thread on the same topic -- minus the personal vitriol.


Otohara
DU Moderator