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Why gun control will never work in the US

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Howzit Donating Member (918 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:30 PM
Original message
Why gun control will never work in the US
http://lawreview.law.wfu.edu/documents/issue.43.837.pdf

INTRODUCTION
Gun control in the United States generally has meant some type
of supply regulation. Some rules are uncontroversial like usertargeted
restrictions that define the untrustworthy and prohibit
them from accessing the legitimate supply.1 Some have been very
controversial like the District of Columbia’s recently overturned law
prohibiting essentially the entire population from possessing
firearms.2 Other contentious restrictions have focused on particular
types of guns—e.g., the now expired Federal Assault Weapons Ban.3
Some laws, like one-gun-a-month,4 target straw purchases but also
constrict overall supply. Various other supply restrictions operate
at the state and local level. Proposals for stricter gun control
typically involve expansion of supply controls toward the goal of
bringing the U.S. rate of gun crime down to the levels of other first tier
industrialized nations—places where background conditions
along with supply-side restrictions have resulted in dramatically
lower inventories of guns than in the United States.

None of these measures have been particularly successful and,
upon reflection, have been somewhat peculiar. We have pressed
supply-side rules at the margin—e.g., with prospective limits on
supply and restrictions on obscure categories of guns—all while
denying that disarmament is the ultimate goal.5 This recipe for gun
control has yielded disappointing results.
Stringent de jure supply restrictions actually have correlated
with higher levels of gun crime.6 This is not surprising. De jure
supply restrictions are not the same as de facto supply reduction.
Effective supply-side regulation requires earnest pursuit and
eventual achievement of an environment where the civilian gun
inventory, both legitimate and contraband, is very small (“the
supply-side ideal”). In the handful of municipalities that have
attempted true gun bans, supply has continued to meet demand
primarily because the existing inventory of guns is vast, and people
have real world incentives to defy gun bans.7 These two phenomena,
elaborated here as the “remainder problem” and the “defiance
impulse,” have confounded supply restrictions for decades.

....

II. CHALLENGES TO THE SUPPLY-SIDE IDEAL
Erring on the high side, there are around 13,000 gun homicides
in the United States each year.19 Suicides with a firearm add
another 17,000 deaths.20 If there were only 30,000 private guns in
America, and we knew where they were, it would be easy to imagine
mustering the political will to confiscate those guns and ban new
ones. If our borders were reasonably secure against illegal imports
and contraband guns could not be manufactured domestically, we
would expect dramatic reductions in gun crimes, accidents, and
suicides.
But our problem is different. The guns used in our roughly
30,000 annual gun deaths are drawn from an inventory approaching
300 million.21 This is far more guns than the countries in any of the
cross-cultural comparisons—22 far more private guns than any other
country ever.23 Americans own close to half the private firearms on
the planet.24 Plus, our borders are permeable, and guns and
ammunition are relatively easy to manufacture. So achieving the
supply-side ideal is not just a matter of channeling enough outrage
to finally get the right words enacted into law.

....

CONCLUSION
Without a commitment to or capacity for eliminating the
existing inventory of private guns, the supply-side ideal and
regulations based on it cannot be taken seriously. It is best to
acknowledge the blocking power of the remainder and adjust our
gun control regulations and goals to that reality. Policymakers who
continue to press legislation grounded on the supply-side ideal while
disclaiming the goal of prohibition are deluded or pandering
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. In DC, you could get on the subway to a gun shop in VA or Silver Spring, MD. nt
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That is a BIG Federal felony.
You cannot do that. To do so, would mean 10 years in Club Fed, for the FFL Dealer.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. It's against the law! Oh my! Nom de Dieu! nt
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. FFL dealers must, by law.....
Keep meticulous paperwork. Some have paid HUGE FINES for useing minor abbreviations, and missing punctuations, ON said paperwork.

And they do get audited quite regularly, they must be able to account for all firearms, and they must keep these records (Form 4473)for many many years.

Any illegal sale, would show up like a sore thumb on the paperwork, as would any "missing" guns.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
20. Good job proving the OP's point.
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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. I think the answer is to get SOME gun control by not being totalitarian about it.
And we do need SOME gun control. As a mental health worker, I can tell you about people I know who have walked the streets, who, if they were able to purchase a gun would kill you - because they saw you raping and murdering the Easter Bunny. Not bad guys mind you, just so effing crazy they don't know that what they saw you do was a hallucination therefore they aren't really avenging the rape and murder of the Easter Bunny.

So we NEED the capability of gun owners to sell and buy guns from each other as they wish, with the capacity to see if the individual they are selling to should own a gun. This means respecting the rights of gun owners enough that they feel confident operating above the table. Just a little individual transparency, coupled with a respect of their second amendment rights should do the trick.
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I think the changes to the current NICS check,....
....since VT went along way in fixing that.

Yes, we do need the capability of gun owners to sell and buy guns from each other, guns are private property. I would like to have a way to check a potential buyer out for myself, but alas, the NICS check is ONLY for gun dealers, and I am not one, So I ONLY, sell firearms to people I know very well, like ONLY my family or close friends.

I have only sold two guns to family members in the past 10 years..And they both had many other guns as well.
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. There are these "Gun Bashes" around here in W PA where, according to
people who attend them that there are no background checks and lots of business is conducted in the parking lots. I hope they are as careful as you are. I have a relative who should not have a gun or easy access to one. We worry about her getting a gun from one of those Bashes through one of her friends.
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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Yeah, that's a very dangerous situation you describe.
I know because a friend of mine had a similar situation, and it did get crazy. Please, stay alert on that one.
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inkool Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. A quick break down of PA laws...
Regarding non NFA gun sales.

If you buy a gun from a FFL you must have a background check.

If you buy a handgun from private seller you must have that gun transferred by a FFL and have a background check.

You can buy a long gun from a private seller without a background check.

Those parking lot sales at gun shows could just as easily happen in the parking lot at Target.

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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Good point about the "parking lot" sales. On buying a handgun from a private seller,
the requirement to have it transferred by a FFL & a background check seems to be a feel good law. Why not just "go to the Target parking lot"?

Laws for acquiring guns don't work to keep them away from those who shouldn't have them. That's why we worry about our relative's access to a gun.
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inkool Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Why do you call it a...
"feel good law"?

It is a felony to sell a handgun without going through a FFL. Most people like to avoid felonies, and will use the FFL. In my opinion this is one of the most effective laws to keep handguns away from prohibited people without putting an undo burden on lawful buyers.

Unless you mean that criminals will not care about this law and get a handgun anyway. In which case all laws a criminal may break are just feel good.
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Your last sentence sums it up for me. It's a feel good law for those who wrote the law.
Anybody with some money can get a gun anytime they want one with or without laws.
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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I'm seeing this more and more as an issue.
What I'm seeing is government squeezing so tight that the create black markets with zero oversite. Here it is with guns, but I was just writing in another post about the Craigslist killer, how we have enabled him by forcing prostitution related financial transactions underground. If the sex worker could operate above the table, we'd have this guys credit card number after the first kill.

What we need is policies that back off this stuff, so people can operate above the table, and have government maintain just minimal oversite, like going after the serial killers and mentally ill buying guns. Transparency of markets should be its fundamental goal. This may sound Libertarian, but what I am actually talking about is reality based leftism. We need to stop deluding ourselves making policies which the enforcement thereof just creates black markets with zero oversite.
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. This.
I really like your use of the term "keeping it above the table".
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. I would also like to use the NICS background check when I sell my personal firearams...
currently I use an approach similar to yours as I only sell firearms to people I know personally and who have a concealed weapons permit. Fortunately, I rarely sell any of my firearms as every time I do, I end up regretting it.

I personally would not be opposed to going to a gun dealer and having him run the background check on a potential buyer before the sale was complete. Of course, I would expect a REASONABLE fee to be charged for the dealer's time. If nothing else, the transaction could be completed in the dealers store rather than my house.

The same requirement could be made at gun shows for sales between private individuals.

While some gun owners would oppose any restriction on their right to sell their personal property, I feel most responsible owners would not object. The cost of the background check would be passed along to the buyer anyhow.

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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. We already have a great deal of gun control, and some of it is quite totalitarian
What do you think is lacking?
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kudzu22 Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. If they're that dangerous
why are they out in public to begin with? Are you saying they won't kill me for raping the Easter Bunny unless they get a gun? They can't use a knife or their car or their bare hands? The problem is the person, not the gun.

BTW, we not only have SOME gun control, we have A LOT of gun control.
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. Very good read....And the last sentance said it all....
Policymakers who
continue to press legislation grounded on the supply-side ideal while
disclaiming the goal of prohibition are deluded or pandering


Also Kicked and Rec...
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. I.e. gun-control won't work unless law-abiding citizens are prohibited from keeping and bearing arms
for self-defense even though government is not obligated to protect individuals and recognizing that when criminals attack and seconds count, police are only minutes or hours away.

Anti-RKBA group want to disarm victims and pro-RKBA group want to disarm criminals.
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