NRA&GOA real goal? The fascist use of chaos to further political ends.

[billbuckhead]

Another poster on another thread was talking about the situation in Iraq and something about how fascists often use chaos to further their political ends. Isn't that what the gun lobby does in the United States thru licencentuous marketing practices abetted by promiscuous gun laws and lax enforcement of the weak laws we have. This domestic arms race is responsible for the highest murder rate in the civilized world, in fact far more Americans are killed by domestic arms and America's thirdworldlike weapons policies, than from all the foreign terrorists combined. It's obvious that the Republicans and their extremist fellow travelers are using guns to foment terror in America.


<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=704443>

[demsrule4life]

1. "thirdworldlike weapons policies"

Most third world countries don't recognize RKBA. Unless you are in the drug trade or a Govt hack, you won't have a firearm.

[billbuckhead]

6. Brazil. Venezuela, South Africa, Afghanistan, tribal areas of Pakistan

Lots of guns and lots of crime.

[DBoon]

7. Iraq under Saddam had lots of firearms

See:

http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20030514/5155439s.htm

My understanding is that Saddam's regime pro-actively armed the citizenry

[Man_in_the_Moon]

12. dupe post

dupe post

[Man_in_the_Moon]

13. Armed the SUNNIs

He didnt arm the Kurds, or the Shiites.

He killed any of those that dared to get guns.

[Romulus]

14. that would be

the pro-active arming of pro-Saddam types:

Virtually every Baghdad family already has a weapon at home. Thousands of rifles were distributed by Saddam Hussein's ruling Baath Party in the months before the war. The regime urged Baghdad residents to use them against invading American troops. Many guns were looted from military bases and carried off by soldiers who abandoned their units. Others were distributed before the 1991 Gulf War and during the war against Iran in the 1980s.


Why are they keeping their firearms?:

''We feel 100% insecure because the American forces are not providing security for us,'' Mohammed says. ''People are buying guns in order to defend themselves against looters and thieves.''

[Romulus]

11. let's see

Brazil : all firearms owners licensed & firearms registered

South Africa: same

Afghanistan (Taliban era): only Taliban allies were "allowed" by the Taliban to keep weapons; others with enough guns kept the Taliban at bay from their regions

"tribal areas of Pakistan": (i.e. Afghan border) - only those guns registered with the Pakistani government are "legal"

"lots of (illegal) guns, lots of crime" - yep

[TexasMexican]

20. whats your point.

The guns are there because there is crime.

The crime there because there are guns.

[slackmaster]

2. Freud once said sometimes a cigar in a dream is just a cigar

I think it's perfectly reasonable to view the NRA and GOA as groups of people who like owning guns, and the gun industry as people who make money by selling them.

[billbuckhead]

4. Brookings Institute. "unique capacity to terrorize the public."

"Compared with other developed nations, the United States is unique in its high rates of both gun ownership and murder. Although widespread gun ownership does not have much effect on the overall crime rate, gun use does make criminal violence more lethal and has a unique capacity to terrorize the public. Gun crime accounts for most of the costs of gun violence in the United States, which are on the order of $100 billion per year."

<http://www.brook.edu/press/books/evaluatinggunpolicy.htm>

[demsrule4life]

5. Gun laws do not effect criminal violence

I have been told this a time or two on this board.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

8. "developed Nations" what an Elitist/Classist/Racist term

I guess they dont consider Russia, Brazil, South Africa to be 'developed nations'.

[CO Liberal]

9. And What's The Murder Rate In The US?

Compared to the rate in Russia, Brazil, or South Africa?

[Man_in_the_Moon]

10. 1/3rd, 1/10th, 1/6th respectively

From what I remember when I last looked.

If I remember right the US had 5 or 6 per 100k

Russia had 18-20 per 100k
Brazil had 45-50 per 100k
South Africa had 35 per 100k

I might be a bit off on some of the numbers but that is the general area I remember.

[1a2b3c]

18. I use to have a much better link for this

But i am not on my computer.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html

South Africa in 1995 had 26.6 per 100k

[solinvictus]

22. Freud

He also said....

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity"

-Sigmund Freud , "General Introduction to Psychoanalysis"

[MrBenchley]

3. Good point.

Both organization serve as stalking horses for the most extreme right wing loonies on the planet.

[mikehiggins]

15. Check your meds

NRA and GOA are special interest groups lobbying for a specific agenda. It couldn't be more open and shut than that. They happen to be better at what they do than a lot of other special interest groups but then again, that's how this system works.

As to weak laws not being enforced, that's hardly the fault of either group. There are already sufficient laws on the books to prosecute and incarcerate gun-using criminals, if they were to be enforced. That is a decision that rests with the police and district attorney's across the US and I doubt you can produce even one case where the NRA or GOA intervened in a case where the law was being enforced.

I have no problem with people owning guns, though I do not own one myself. I am more concerned with people who have a few drinks too many, or a few too many puffs of marijuana and then attempt to pilot their 3000 lb Cadillac down the highway.

I have been robbed at gunpoint by a teenager with a handgun. I'm willing to bet he didn't have a license for that handgun. It wasn't the gun that made that kid a criminal. If he and his two buddies didn't have a gun they might have opted for a baseball bat, or a crowbar or a switchblade. Either way I still would have been robbed.

One of the gripes the NRA guys have is that the "lefties" real intent is to disarm this country and eliminate RTBA outright. Instead the left mumbles how they don't want to do what is clearly part of THEIR agenda, just like the righties claim that stopping "partial birth" abortions is NOT an attack on Roe v Wade.

This country would be a lot better off if we would just be upfront and honest about what we are doing.

But that would require trust in the "sheeple" wouldn't it?

After all, we know what's best.

[billbuckhead]

16. 3000lb Cadillac?

Are there any Cimarons left? Guns multiply violence. It's very simple. That's why armies have them instead of swords or clubs.

[beevul]

19. Guns multiply violence?

Thats funny, I own a winchester model 90 .22 pump(older than most folks here,im sure), a sears "ted williams" .22 semi-auto, (older than many that post here), and a beretta model 96 that I have for self/home defense and target practice, and none of them have EVER multiplied violence in any way. The rifles were my fathers and GRANDFATHERS before mine, and the beretta was a DUTY weapon on one of arizonas finest before I came into ownership of it.

I guess mine must be defective as they each require someone to feed, aim and pull trigger, to even have the potential to "multiply violence" in any way. They sure dont do it on their own. And even then it depends WHAT is aimed at that determines whether violence is present, multiplied, etc, does it not?


Guns are a TOOL, an INANIMATE object, THEY HAVE NO AGENDA OF THEIR OWN, NO WANTS, NO WISHES. Only the same need to be respected, and cared for as any other precision mechanical device.(oiled, kept clean,safe, and taken good care of)

It would be better politically if the antigunners would deal with the folks who use guns to multiply violence WHEN they use guns to multiply violence, and quit with the blanket restrictions that effect those of us that DON'T use guns violently. In other words, be a gun grabber to the n'th degree where a gun is used violently, but leave the rest of the gun owners alone.

Doh, now that everyone knows I own 2 40 plus year old rifles,both family heirlooms and antiques, and a self/home defense/target shooting handgun, I guess Ill be labeled a gun-nut.

[jhfenton]

21. Welcome

Well said. All of my guns must be defective as well. None of them have ever multiplied violence either, at least that I know of. They're always sitting or standing innocently in the safe when I open it to check on them. I assume they've been there the whole time.

"I guess Ill be labeled a gun-nut."

That's alright. You're in good company. I'm a proud "gun nut."

[beevul]

23. Thank you 8)

Im one of those pesky folks that has no plan on ever getting an assault weapon or a .50 but feels its fine for others to own them. If that makes me a gun nut, I guess Im fine with that. :evilgrin:

Thanks again for the welcome.:)

[jhfenton]

24. Well, if they keep changing the definition...

of assault weapon to whatever suits them, your pocket knife may become an assault weapon before too long.

An assault weapon used to be a light automatic or select fire rifle. Then it became a semi-automatic rifle which kinda looks like a military rifle. Now they want to expand it to include many hunting and sporting rifles and shotguns.

Check out awbansunset.com. 301 days till this unconstitutional absurdity expires and we regain a measure of freedom.

Like you, I have no use for a .50BMG rifle. They are outrageously expensive, and I would have nowhere to shoot them.

[1a2b3c]

17. both the anti and pro gun lobbies use tactics similar to this nt