Taking Back the Second Amendment

[jody]

A Seven-Step Blueprint For Democrats to Promote Responsibility and Win the Gun Vote

QUOTE
For example, in the 2000 presidential election, there was a 31-point gap in Al Gore's performance between gun owners and non-gun owners. And the gap was even wider -- 36-points -- for congressional Democrats in 2000. It is no accident that the states that voted for President Bush in 2000 have the highest gun ownership rates (53% of red state voters had a gun in the home, compared to 39% of blue state voters). Moreover, 54% of traditionally Democratic voting union members live in a home with a gun, which gives cause for Democrats to be concerned about losing more base voters.
UNQUOTE

Our platform says we are not gun-grabbers and IMO we should aggressively disavow any gun-grabber who pretends to speak for the Democratic Party on this important issue.

[billbuckhead]

1. We lost the last election because black votes weren't counted

Until we admit that was the major problem and address it, we have no business pandering to the ConFlag crowd.

[MrBenchley]

6. Amen to that!!

The idea that we should spouting the same idiotic lies that John AshKKKroft and Tom DeLay peddle to pander to knuckle-dragging buffoons is disgraceful.

[alwynsw]

59. Not a direct insult

but should RKBA supporting progressives on this board be painted with that brush?

[Agathias]

19. That "ConFlag" crowd was solidly Democrat for a 100yrs

way to complete their turning away from the Party (by dismissing them). The Democratic Party can NOT become solely a party of minorities and liberal elites. Cast aside everyone else, make no effort to INclude anyone else, and the Party will go down in '04 just like it did in the CA Recall, with Party spin-meisters crying 'the electorate are morons'.

[1a2b3c]

47. Whats a black vote?

Are you not the poster who puts himself on a higher platform than all the uneducated people? Do i need to search the old DU archives for some links?

[1a2b3c]

55. I still find the term 'black vote'

To be a bigot statement.

[billbuckhead]

64. The black vote is people who fill out the census as black and vote

The black vote may also include people of other races or people believe race is a hoax anyhow but who are affiliated with "black" people in such a way that they look out for them as friends, neighbors, teamates, business partners, fellow citizens, etc. and who would not like them to be cheated.

As far as old links showing me as some sort of "poster who puts himself on a higher platform than all the uneducated people?". Like Bernie Mac says, "I say bring em on and let America decide.

[La_Serpiente]

2. Geez

What has the DLC come up with again.

[jhfenton]

3. An attempt at common sense. (eom)

[funkyflathead]

4. Agreed.

We should EMPHASIZE LOUDLY that we have not taken away a single gun from any law abiding gun owner.

There have been grandfather clauses in bills such as the 1986 machine gun ban.

Where have Democrats said "hand them in?"

[solinvictus]

5. "hand them in"

Well, Feinstein's famous on record "If I had 51 votes..." was taken as indicative of the official Democratic platform. On a more local level, she was instrumental in removing individual rights to effective protection while she herself had an issued conceal/carry permit. The party needs to distance itself from this attitude in order to win back gun owners.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Agathias]

18. California. Post '89

Since the AWB in CA took effect, and the registration period ended, the state AG has said exactly that - you can't bring them in the state, even if we allow identical weapons to be owned here; you can't will them to family members - when you die it must be turned into the State.

[1a2b3c]

48. and a grandfathered clause makes it right?

[Lefty48197]

7. Here's another way Democrats can get the NRA vote:

Nominate a right winger like George Bush. No thanks.

[jody]

8. That makes as much sense as saying gun-grabbers would vote

for Bush as a Republican candidate if he would support banning guns.

Do you really believe Republicans Sarah and Jim Brady voted for Gore just because Gore sang their ban-guns mantra? If you do, then I've got several acres of ocean front property in Wyoming to sell you.

[jhfenton]

10. Single-issue candidates

If people are anything like me, that wouldn't work. A single issue like the RKBA can veto a candidate, but it's not enough by itself to earn a vote.

That's why I haven't voted for a major party presidential candidate since Clinton in 1992.

[CarinKaryn]

11. If Gore has mouthed all *'s lies he would have won?

I want a candidate who is different from the repugnents. What's the point of having someone who mimics their idiocitic views on guns, drugs, the economy, heath care, etc?

Why don't you just vote repugnent and save time?

[MrBenchley]

12. Amen to that

Why should Democrats pander to a tiny bunch of neurotic Bernie Goetz wannabes? Even a majority of gun owners want gun control.

http://www.emergingdemocraticmajority.com/newsletter.cfm?nl_id=44&nla_id=79

[Emoto]

13. Sorry Jody...

Preserving our civil rights seems to be unfashionable in this forum. Too bad. One would expect liberals to be in favor of preserving the rights that our founding father knew to be so critical in maintaining our freedom, but it seems to be not the case.

[MrBenchley]

14. "One would expect liberals"

Not to parrot the position of the most backward and extremist group of conservatives around....

[Haole316]

45. Do you always vilify everyone that doesn't agree with you?

±

[Valarauko]

53. Of course.

Rational argument for gun control is rather hard to find these days.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[grannylib]

15. My main prob with NRA/ 2nd amendment is that part of it is usually ignored

the NRA wants to focus on the words, "....the rights of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" and don't seem to want us to remember that there is something before that, namely that "A well-regulated militia being necessary to a free state,..."

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

17. Excellent post....

[Agathias]

20. or understand that every other Right in the Bill of Rights...

... is an INDIVIDUAL Right, and so is the 2nd.

[MrBenchley]

22. Hahahahahahaha....

"every other Right in the Bill of Rights...
... is an INDIVIDUAL Right"

And that's why the NRA (the source of this preposterous lie) is suing to overturn campaign finance reform on the grounds that its COLLECTIVE freedom of speech is impaired if it can't hand out blood money to the GOP.

[solinvictus]

21. By that rationale

then the 1st Amendment is a collective right as well, only to be exercised at the discretion of the national government, as it refers to "the people" as a collective.

[MrBenchley]

23. Gee, sol

you mean you think one person can assemble peaceably?

[the_acid_one]

61. It's not a qualifier.

...This has been tossed around so many times down here.

The militia part is simply an example of "why". Not a "Only".

If they meant it like that, they would have said "The right of the militia to keep and bear arms."

The only people who interpret it "collectively" are hard core anti-gunners. Ask 100 random people on the street what the second ammendment means, I doubt even one of them would say "It gives the milita the right to own guns".

This is because it's so patently obvious that it means "the people" as in "the citizens" that to say otherwise is simply ridiculous.

Argue that it's outdated, argue that society has radically changed and it doesnt apply anymore, but dont insult literate folks by saying it doesnt mean exactly what it says.

[beevul]

24. This would do wonders for

"Our platform says we are not gun-grabbers and IMO we should aggressively disavow any gun-grabber who pretends to speak for the Democratic Party on this important issue."

the Democratic Party. This would swing back the many of the independents, and the "I will not vote for any anti-rkba candidates EVER" types. This is the way the Democratic Party could inflict a "shot to the heart" of the republican party, and send them packing(no pun intended).

[MrBenchley]

25. Hahahahahahaha...

"This is the way the Democratic Party could inflict a "shot to the heart" of the republican party"
By becoming just like the GOP? Surrrrrrrre..

*the World Trade Center was blown up and the guy who did it got away because his family's in canoots with the Bush crime family;

*three million jobs have gone down the toilet while the GOP has pushed for tax breaks for billionaires;

*More than 400 Americans have died and thousands more have been wounded, and thousands of innocent Iraqis have been murdered and maimed in a war built entirely on lies that continues to go on months after this unelected drunk dressed up like a pilot and declared victory;

*The church/state wall is being torn down and the Constitution has been trashed;

*The courts are being packed with right wing loonies more fit for a sideshow than for the judiciary;

*Convicted felons have been appointed to positions of trust;

*Open graft and corporate crime have become commonplace; and

*the clock is being turned back daily on the environment, civil rights, labor law, public education and public health.

The tiny clot of voters who think the primo issue is that Dianne Feinstein is going to take away their precious guns are Timmy McVeigh wannabes. They're as likely to vote Democratic in their lifetimes as David Koresh is likely to be the Messiah, arise from his grave and start performing miracles.

[Emoto]

26. You forget your base

Dems used to count on union voters. The union leadership and candidates still make a big deal out of union endorsements. But, who do the rank and file union members vote for? How many union members have you had political conversations with in the past, say, 6 months? I speak with people who are union workers several times a week. None of them will vote for the democratic presidential candidates because of their absurd positions on guns.

[MrBenchley]

27. So union people will vote for the right to work president

because they've got a gun fetish?

"I speak with people who are union workers several times a week. None of them will vote for the democratic presidential candidates because of their absurd positions on guns. "
Yeah, surrrrrrrrrrrre....

[CO Liberal]

28. So Instead......

....they vote for Republicans with their absurd positions on Right To Work. Sounds like the union folks need to rethink things.

[Emoto]

29. I'm just saying....

...what they tell me is all. Go to any union job site or shop and count the NRA stickers on the cars and trucks. They laughed at that staged picture of Kerry hunting with his $5000.00 shotgun. Mind you, I am not arguing what may or may not be in these folks' best interest, just pointing out that alienating a traditional base is not the best way to win elections.

Give them a democrat like JFK who cut taxes and was strong on national defense and doesn't hedge on anything in the Bill of Rights, and you will get their votes. Just my opinion.

[MrBenchley]

33. Yeah,, surrrrrrrre....

"Go to any union job site or shop and count the NRA stickers"
Damn few around here...but plenty of "I'm union and I vote." But then I don't live in a "right to work" state.

[MrBenchley]

32. Sounds like what real union folks used to call "finks"

Don't it?

[beevul]

30. By becoming just like the GOP? Surrrrrrrre..????

Since when does 1 issue somehow equate to "becoming just like the GOP"?

Oh, you mean being pro-choice on guns within the party platform means you HAVE to change positions on ALL OTHER ISSUES as a party platform until you mirror the republican party? I guess you'd rather law abiding gun owners vote for the enemy then. Oh yeah, and 80 million plus potential votes...yeah, thats pretty insignificant...NOT!


Does anyone else here in J/PS agree with that?("becoming just like the GOP") Or is that just YOUR opinion?


"The tiny clot of voters who think the primo issue is that Dianne Feinstein is going to take away their precious guns are Timmy McVeigh wannabes. They're as likely to vote Democratic in their lifetimes as David Koresh is likely to be the Messiah, arise from his grave and start performing miracles."

Cite please proving all this to be fact, instead of more anti-gun retread rhetoric.

In truth, it's probably something more like this:

"The tiny clot of voters who think the primo issue is taking guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens are as likely to hurt the Democratic Party as the republican party is to tell lies."


The fact is- your WRONG about the VAST majority of gun owners. But I guess thats ok with you. I just hope that if the extremist anti-gunners take down the Democratic party YET again, that those in positions power over party platform recognise them, and give them the attention they so richly deserve for aiding and abeting(sp?) the enemy.


"*the World Trade Center was blown up and the guy who did it got away because his family's in canoots with the Bush crime family;

*three million jobs have gone down the toilet while the GOP has pushed for tax breaks for billionaires;

*More than 400 Americans have died and thousands more have been wounded, and thousands of innocent Iraqis have been murdered and maimed in a war built entirely on lies that continues to go on months after this unelected drunk dressed up like a pilot and declared victory;

*The church/state wall is being torn down and the Constitution has been trashed;

*The courts are being packed with right wing loonies more fit for a sideshow than for the judiciary;

*Convicted felons have been appointed to positions of trust;

*Open graft and corporate crime have become commonplace; and

*the clock is being turned back daily on the environment, civil rights, labor law, public education and public health."

What do the above issues marked with a * have to do with the gun issue, other than your attempt to apply guilt by association to issues and try to keep the gun issue one that supports repukes, instead of Democrats?

And anyone who seeks to further divide the Democratic party is supporting * and everything listed above with a * in front of it. No Question Whatsoever.


Stay tuned, I'll have a real life experience to share haveing to do with Loyal Democratic voters who were turned away based on the gun issue and remain so, shortly.

[MrBenchley]

31. The RKBA crowd screams "one issue"

And now you're trying to pretend the other issues are subordinate to it?

Hahahahahahaha!!

"I guess you'd rather law abiding gun owners vote for the enemy then."
Who are you trying to kid? The majority of gun owners support gun control. It's only the tiny knot of NRA fanatics who don't.

"your WRONG about the VAST majority of gun owners."
No,, I'm 100% correct about them...just as I'm correct about the tiny racist bunch pushing the spurious "gun rights" agenda.

[juancarlos]

34. Only in Benchley's world

is five million people a "tiny knot"

[MrBenchley]

35. Only in RKBA fantasyland

is 80 million and 5 million the same number...

[alwynsw]

57. Welcome back, my friend.

If anyone else reads this, I would hope that the gun grabbers poll the UMWA, Teamsters, UAW, etc. members in "flyover country" about restrictive gun laws. I believ that they will find a far greater percentage of union members in the heartland own firearms than they would like to believe.

(Former Teamster Steward here, withdrawn honorably after pronotion to management.)

[beevul]

36. The RKBA crowd DOES scream "one issue"...

Thats the first thing I have seen you say in this thread in which you don't have wrong facts.


Your facts about what they're screaming about are wrong though.

They're screaming :

Fool me once, shame on you,
Fool me twice, shame on me.


"Who are you trying to kid? The majority of gun owners support gun control. It's only the tiny knot of NRA fanatics who don't."

1 We have all the kids we want, don't want any more, thanks.(in fact, I'm trying real hard NOT to "kid" the other half p)

2 Define SPECIFICALLY the EXACT meaning of gun control AS USED in the above quote, then a link or cite showing PROOF that "The majority of gun owners support gun control" AS DEFINED AND USED in the above statement, as well as a link or cite proving that its "only the tiny knot of NRA fanatics who don't", and No anti-gun trash polls, or links to the VPC(Valueing Peoples Cluelessness).

3 Where are all your "pro gun-control" gun owner buddies when they could/should be here to back up what your saying? I mean, with 75 million, a few dozen shouldnt be too tough for you to come up with, right?:eyes: I can just see it now, "75 million Gun owners begging for ban"...:eyes:

"No,, I'm 100% correct about them...just as I'm correct about the tiny racist bunch pushing the spurious "gun rights" agenda"

Perhaps on some other planet, fortunately for gun owners, this is earth.

Again, define SPECIFICALLY the EXACT meaning of gun control AS USED in the above statement, then a link or cite showing PROOF that "The majority of gun owners support gun control" AS DEFINED AND USED in the above statement, as well as a link or cite proving that its exclusively "the tiny knot of NRA fanatics who don't", and no others; No anti-gun trash polls, or links to the VPC(Valueing Peoples Cluelessness), Oh, and don't hand me any "been there done that" elusiveness, since I am new here. The burden of proof to back up your claim is on YOU, prove it,retract it, or you'll be identified to be someone who will NOT debate in good faith, and be ignored.

[MrBenchley]

40. And its a phony issue

pushed by some of the scummiest specimens in public life.

And the tiny segment for whom it is the primary issue hate blacks, Jews, gays, Hispanics, Orientals, and uppity women as much as they love guns and will never vote Democratic.

[beevul]

52. Gave you a chance

Bye-bye :hi:

[beevul]

37. And you're willing................

"*the World Trade Center was blown up and the guy who did it got away because his family's in canoots with the Bush crime family;

*three million jobs have gone down the toilet while the GOP has pushed for tax breaks for billionaires;

*More than 400 Americans have died and thousands more have been wounded, and thousands of innocent Iraqis have been murdered and maimed in a war built entirely on lies that continues to go on months after this unelected drunk dressed up like a pilot and declared victory;

*The church/state wall is being torn down and the Constitution has been trashed;

*The courts are being packed with right wing loonies more fit for a sideshow than for the judiciary;

*Convicted felons have been appointed to positions of trust;

*Open graft and corporate crime have become commonplace; and

*the clock is being turned back daily on the environment, civil rights, labor law, public education and public health."

And you're willing to live with ALL OF THAT, as long as you can keep gun owners demonized and out of the Democratic Party. Show any of us differently, if you can.

[MrBenchley]

41. Not me.......it's the RKBA crowd

that's pushing the Republican agenda...and is putting their gun fetish above sanity.

[1a2b3c]

49. I read your post

and i cant help but think that its the gun grabbers fault. Gore would have won more states if he kept to his pro RKBA possition that he had in the 1980's. Instead he switch to anti RKBA to become appealing to a few gun grabbers in the north. Sure he won the votes in the northern states, he would have even with a pro RKBA possition. But he lost ALL of the midwestern states and i would bet Florida wouldnt have been close, even with voter fraud and dimple chads if he kept his original pro RKBA possition.

Most of these problems you showed would not have happened. Billions wouldnt be wasted on a war we already claimed to have won even when more people are dying after we already declared victory. Gore would probably still be looking for Osama, and i doubt he would be looking in Iraq. I know he would be focusing on the economy.....But.... he had to switch sides to appeal to the New Yorkers. What was he thinking? Does he not think that he ALREADY appealed to these NYers and soccer moms more than *? He voted pro RKBA in TN. Why the switch? Notice, he didnt even WIN TN. Had he not tried so hard to appeal to soccer moms and gun grabbers and kept his ORIGINAL possition on the right to keep and bear arms, we wouldnt be in this mess. Had Gore REMEMBERED that there are NON CONSERVATIVE VOTERS living in conservative states, like say, Kansas or Tennessee, we wouldnt be in this mess.

All of that which you posted, i must place the blame strictly on the shoulders of Al Gore, his campaigne, and the gun grabbing elite.

[MrSandman]

63. He could have won WV

swinging 10 electoral votes...look at the map.

[davidinalameda]

38. Stupid question time

but isn't the average gun owner different from the sterotypical NRA type?

we don't want the NRA type because that would becoming too much NRA-lite but we do need the average gun owner

[jody]

39. Bullseye! "we do need the average gun owner."

:hi:

[MrBenchley]

42. Yeah, and the average gun owner

supports gun control.

[jhfenton]

43. "gun control"

Only if, by "gun control," you mean hitting what you aim at. I'm all for that.

[jody]

44. JH, I believe many gun-control aka gun-safety activists mean gun-ban.

:hi:

[TedinAZ]

46. Wow...

MrBenchley,

You may be the reason I vote Republican someday. I swear, some of the things I see here.

[MrBenchley]

54. Gee...

*the World Trade Center was blown up and the guy who did it got away because his family's in canoots with the Bush crime family;
*three million jobs have gone down the toilet while the GOP has pushed for tax breaks for billionaires;
*More than 400 Americans have died and thousands more have been wounded, and thousands of innocent Iraqis have been murdered and maimed in a war built entirely on lies that continues to go on months after this unelected drunk dressed up like a pilot and declared victory;
*The church/state wall is being torn down and the Constitution has been trashed;
*The courts are being packed with right wing loonies;
*Open graft and corporate crime have become commonplace; and
*the clock is being turned back daily on the environment, civil rights, labor law, public education and public health.

And you think the main issue is whether nutcases can get their sweaty hands on assault weapons? Hahahahahaha....

[alwynsw]

60. Not this average gun owner

We have more than enough controls in place as we speak.

[MrSandman]

62. According to the AGS only 2 of 22 Federal Gun Laws are

enforced. By enforcing these 20 laws, we can in effect increase gun control without more legislation.


http://w3.agsfoundation.com/media/AGS-enf.pdf


DoJ study has found that 2% of armed criminals used a military-style semiautomatic rifle or machine gun and fewer than 2% obtained their guns at a gun show or flea market.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf

Given that, the hysteria about gun show loopholes and evil guns sound either misinformed or hiding another agenda. My guess is most are misinformed. Either way, why spend so much political capital on issues which will make such a small difference...again I go back to the AGS study linked above(and on another thread)...make enforcement of all gun laws a major plank in the party platform. Guns sold by dealers at gun shows require background checks. I am ready to stand corrected.

If anyone has data to refute the frequncy of assault weapon use, please correct me.

If not, the dichotomy of facts and rhetoric may be the reason for the lack of support of gun owners.

[Lefty48197]

50. Most union members and their families know that you can't live

with a minimum wage income, and that's why they became union members: To GET that livable wage. I don't think they're dumb enough to elect Republicans who will fight against their unionization rights, and help roll back those wages. I know a lot of union members, and they're much smarter than you are giving them credit for. As long as the Republicans and their NRA allies keep fighting against unions, I don't think there's any chance of union members becoming Republicans anytime soon. Try again.

[1a2b3c]

51. Most union members also know

That when a depression comes along and you cant go to the store to buy food, or you cant get gas, or there are millions of wandering homeless people looking for food or handouts or something to steal, that a gun is the ONLY thing that will keep them alive. My great-grandpa was a dirt farmer in the great depression. Do you think he made a liveable wage? Do you think he used an old winchester pump action .22 to feed my grandma? I was a union member, and you dont seem to want to give union gun owners credit for being smart enough to know that when the shit hits the fan a good ol .22 cal rifle will probably keep them alive.

[alwynsw]

58. My parents an grandparents made it through the Depression

Granddad said he knew the depression was over when he saw a rabbit run by and no one was shooting at it - including him. A Fox double barrel 12 gauge, a Stevens .22, and a WW I "trophy" 7.72X54 helped feed the family during that time.

I've supplemented my larder with game in the past because it helped financially in my salad days. I hunt now because I enjoy the bounty.

[AfroLib]

65. Gun Control

If Dean wins the Primary then it will be interesting to see how this issue plays out in the Presidential election.