Kentucky pastor welcomes guns in church

[SpankMe]

Source: msnbc.com

LOUISVILLE, Ky. - A gun-toting Kentucky pastor says it's OK to bring weapons to church — at least for one day.


When the event got under way Saturday, about 200 people — many carrying small firearms — sat in the Pentecostal church sanctuary.

The "Open Carry Celebration" included a handgun raffle, patriotic music and screening of videos on gun safety. The church hung patriotic banners on the wall that read "In God We Trust."

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31586660/ns/us_news-faith/

---

I fail to see the link between Christian worship and second amendment gun rights advocacy. To me, this is just plain wacky.

[marmar]

1. Now bow your heads to pray.......OR ELSE !!!!

:scared:

[OhioChick]

2. ........

:rofl:

[nightrain]

3. bring a slingshot instead

[AzNick]

14. Or a flame-thrower

I would find a retired one, of course, non-working, but I'd show up pretending it works. I would figure out how to make a little pilot light on top for veracity and show up dressed like that dude at the beginning of Lethal Weapon 4.

And if anybody complains, I'd say it's my second amendment right to bring such a horrific weapon which could incinerate the whole congregation if I so please.

If I have even more time to prepare, I would rent one of those old tanks and crush a few cars, suvs, pickup trucks and what not parked in front, and if they complain, I would just yell "USA! USA! USA! Yeeaaaaah!"

[gorfle]

22. There is no need to pretend.

Flame throwers are perfectly legal to own in most places without restriction, and are not considered firearms. They are usually considered agricultural implements.

And if anybody complains, I'd say it's my second amendment right to bring such a horrific weapon which could incinerate the whole congregation if I so please.

If I have even more time to prepare, I would rent one of those old tanks and crush a few cars, suvs, pickup trucks and what not parked in front, and if they complain, I would just yell "USA! USA! USA! Yeeaaaaah!"

You have a not uncommon misunderstanding of the second amendment. The 2nd applies to small arms that fire on specific targets. It does not apply to crew-served weaponry nor indiscriminate weapons.

The intent of the second amendment was to arm the citizenry with military-grade small arms so that they would be able to replace, or at least counter, federal infantry forces with similar military-grade small arms.

[AzNick]

41. I understand

But the point is that the NRA has managed to get folks to legally own a combat rifle.

I guess I will just bring a .50 cal machine gun, then.

And don't tell me you need a crew to serve it, I have seen Sylvester Stallone use one on his own.

[X_Digger]

42. "Combat Rifles" have been heavily regulated since 1934

.. and the NRA helped draft the states' legislation that served as a template for the federal legislation.

In order to get a full auto gun of any stripe, you have to pony up a huge chunk of cash (prices start at $7,000), submit to an FBI background check, live in a state that allows them, wait 4-6 months, get the approval of you local law enforcement, submit to BATFE inspections, get fingerprinted..

I wouldn't base policy about weapons on what action flicks show.

[AzNick]

46. "Combat rifle" is the real term, not "assault rifle".

The other term is support rifle, although usually for larger calibers, for instance 7.62mm.

[X_Digger]

53. So.. be so kind as to tell me what you think that means..

"combat rifle" seems to be a fuzzy term- anything from a mauser to a 1903 to an AK. Is that intentional, or do you have some description in mind?

[beevul]

49. I'd really like to know...

Where this particular bit of information came from:

"the NRA has managed to get folks to legally own a combat rifle"


Seriously.

Oh, and what you saw stallone use, was an m-60 machine gun, which was 7.62mm, not 50 caliber, IIRC.

Beyond that, before 1934 one could own machineguns, sawed off shotguns, and pretty much everything else.

Then came the national firearms act of 1934.

After that, one could still purchase mail order rifles and handguns IIRC, until the gca of 1968.


The nra didn't "made it" anything, which is why I'd really love to know the source of your information.

[AzNick]

51. Seriously, have you ever heard of the term "lobby"?

The Federal Assault Weapons Ban was part of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994.

It expired in 2004 and no one in congress had the guts to renew it because of the gun lobby and their public front, the NRA.

Where have you guys been, seriously?

I am a gun owner but I don't own a combat rifle because I don't need one. Most of the time I do not carry a firearm, because I don't need one.

I laugh my ass off when I see a douche bag ride his motorcycle with a firearm in the holster, something which is legal here in Arizona.

What are these people afraid of, seriously?

Although I have never started any fight, I have ended a few, and always without the help of a firearm.

[beevul]

58. Oh, sure I have. However...you've been had.

"The Federal Assault Weapons Ban was part of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994."

True.

"It expired in 2004 and no one in congress had the guts to renew it because of the gun lobby and their public front, the NRA."

Also true.

But this is where the "however, you've been had" part comes in.

The "assault weapons ban" had nothing, zip zero nada zilch, to do with combat rifles of any kind whatsoever.

The assault weapons ban, was legislation aimed at SEMI-AUTOMATIC weapons - that is civilian legal weapons, which were ALWAYS civilian legal before that ban. No, I am not pulling your leg.

You DO know what semi-automatic means, right?

TRUE "combat rifles" are select fire and are classified as machineguns by the government, and have nothing at all to do with the "assault weapons ban".

Once again, what on earth made you think that the assault weapons ban had anything at all to do with machineguns?


"Where have you guys been, seriously?"

Reading the actual legislation to see what it exactly does or does not do and/or cover, for starters.


And you?

[gorfle]

66. Carrying a firearm != being afraid.

I laugh my ass off when I see a douche bag ride his motorcycle with a firearm in the holster, something which is legal here in Arizona.

What are these people afraid of, seriously?

I just want to point out here that carrying a firearm does not automatically mean the carrier is afraid of something.

I have life insurance. This does not mean I spend a lot of time worrying about dying.

I have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers and fire insurance on my house. Yet I have never even seen a house fire before, and I do not spend a lot of time worrying about my house burning down.

I have a spare tire and first aid kit in my car, yet I do not spend a lot of time being afraid of flat tires or accidents.

Someone who avails themselves to modern tools as insurance against bad situations is not necessarily "afraid". They could be simply prudent and are being prepared.

[AzNick]

69. Because they are afraid of being attacked

I have had 5 or 6 flat tired, never was attacked by someone with a weapon, probably because I stay out of the dangerous areas.

Probabilities are much higher in my mind that packing heat will be more likely to make you use your weapon, or call for problems.

It is even very likely that some crooks seeing you packing a nice Glock decide to show up and stick you up for your gun.

How would I say that? Because it has happened countless times, that's why. Idiots using their guns in road rage, or just because they got upset after an argument. Just regular guys, who thought they were on the right side of the law, carrying a gun and using it to commit a violent crime, and this happening more often than the regular guys lawfully defending themselves. No, I don't remember the statistics, and I won't make them up. And people have been mugged off of their handguns here in Arizona.

Yes, packing heat in a totally normal society is a sign of fear.

Now, if I was moving around Teheran or Baghdad, I would surely buy and carry an AK, that's for sure, because the probabilities of having to use it are much much higher than that of having a flat tire.

[Infinite Hope]

39. [crickets chirping]

n/t

[MisterK]

4. Beam me up Scotty

Theres no intelligent life here on Earth anymore.

[Oregone]

5. but not gays i bet

[sarcasmo]

6. You better pay ten percent of your income like the good book says or you might get shot.

[eagertolearn]

27. You got me thinking...if we could just put the 10% of everyone's income towards

health care instead of church everyone could be covered and our government wouldn't go broke!

[Xenotime]

48. Did they put bullets in the collection plate..

I can only give 5 rounds this week...<bang> 4 this week.

[NewMoonTherian]

57. It wasn't a worship service.

I understand why this would be a subject of confusion, but please listen and try to understand the distinction. It was a social event. Completely seperate from worship.

My folks and I put on a haunted hayride for our church every year. We have block parties in the summer and carnivals in the gym of our church school next door. We play paintball. There's a prayer at the beginning and then we have fun. Not a worship service.

They aren't mixing guns with God. They aren't worshipping guns. they aren't obsessed madmen. They're assembling to celebrate the role of firearms in American history and in society today. You may choose to attack them for feeling that way, but I don't think it's right to attack them for doing it as a church congregation.

[rrneck]

71. Heh. Praise the lord and pass the ammunition. nt

[boppers]

7. The link between the two:

Using power and force to control the lives of others.

[madeline_con]

8. Guns and bibles. Hallelujah! n/t

[X_Digger]

9. What is this, the 5th or 6th post on the subject? n/t

[MisterK]

10. First Ive seen

Course Im not here 24/7

[X_Digger]

11. It's made the rounds, but apparently different sources, my bad

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5807708
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x210506
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5936275
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5787114
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x227259
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x226966

[ret5hd]

13. On wacky fuckin' xtians? probably the 5000th.

[Dappleganger]

12. Did they bring out the snakes?

[AzNick]

15. It mangles your hand and you can't shoot

Them snakes do bite, even if Djeebus tell 'em not to.

After that yor hand is all mangled up and ya can't shoot no more.

[rrneck]

72. THAT would have me bringing a gun to church. nt

[ashling]

16. How is this breaking news?

Haven't we been hearing about this for weeks?

[47of74]

17. Suffer the guns to come on to me, sayeth the Lord...

[provis99]

18. Guns in Church? What would Jesus do?

[beevul]

40. I'm pro-gun...but...

Cripes that made me laugh.

:rofl:

[caseymoz]

19. Guns are to Christianity what bagpipes are to Rock 'n' Roll.

I could see where you could love one and the other, just not both at the same time.

[a la izquierda]

26. You're obviously not listening to the right music...

:)

[SeattleGirl]

20. "Killin' Fer Jaysus!!"

"Kin Ah git an Ayemen?"

"YEEHAW!!!!!"

"Yew may be seated now."

[Suji to Seoul]

21. George Carlin put it best:

I'm not worried about guns in schools. I'm waiting for guns in church. Just you wait. . .some guy will go fuckin' apeshit in a church and the media will refer to him as a disgruntled worshiper.

What Would Jesus Pack?

[gorfle]

23. On carrying in church.

While I am at best ambivalent about religion, it is my belief that concealed carry should be allowed in most public or pseudo-public places. By pseudo-public what I mean is any privately-owned property that is open to the public at large during its operating hours.

If a man can walk armed down main street surrounded by hundreds of his fellow men, women, and child citizens without any trouble, there is no reason why he can't do so in a church, or a park, or a school campus.

About the only places where I agree with disallowing firearms are in government facilities like courthouses, jails, or seats of government, because these places are highly emotionally charged, and house public servants that are very likely to be the target of hate and resentment in a known, predictable location, and it is easier at such choke-points to simply check for and screen all firearms than try to discriminate between CCW firearms and other firearms.

[Tim01]

30. This all seems very reasonable to me.

I take my gun just about everywhere.

[Paladin]

31. Yeah, And We All Know From Recent History......

...that neither churches nor school campuses are "highly emotionally charged" venues, right? Jesus wept.

You're just spewing the usual gun militancy agenda, which proclaims that essentially all non-gun-friendly places in this country are an abomination. How about working toward schools and churches where massacres don't occur, rather than making the entire nation even more of an armed camp than it already is? How about avoiding the sort of sick, paranoid mindset that accompanies such an armed camp mentality---the sort of mindset that is on continuous exhibit in the DU Guns forum? I guess those concepts just never, ever occur to you people, do they?

[Tim01]

32. What is your suggestion to make all places safe?

So far, reality is that there are dangerous people in all places in this country. How would you suggest we fix that?

[Paladin]

35. Enhanced Security, Improved Nation-Wide Background Checks....

...and mandatory licensing.

These measures wouldn't prevent every tragedy---the gun militancy movement has guaranteed easy access to a flood of guns in this country for decades---but it would reduce the number of such incidents to something closer to those of other advanced nations.

Do any of these proposals have a chance at the present time? No. It's going to take yet another gut-wrenching political assassination to make them possible. God help us, it's not a question of whether but when......

[Tim01]

36. I think your suggestions are unrealistic in this country.

Such tragedies could be nearly stopped if all communications in the country were monitored by the government and people were jailed as necessary. We don't live in that kind of country as far as free speech or guns. I'd be willing to bet dispensing with the first amendment would make more people safer than dispensing with the second.
But I doubt neither is likely, and I like it that way. Maybe we disagree on this.

Were you talking about other things than restricting guns when you said enhanced security, or is that the same thing.
If you meant something else, could you elaborate?

Would you agree that if guns were not available, and mass shootings ended, the criminal in the alley with the knife would still be there. Or the 3 big guys with ball bats or whatever? Those are really where Joe Average does ok if he has a gun. And I don't know the numbers at all. But I would bet 1000 people die in a dark alley or at the ATM for every one who dies in a well publicized mass shooting.

[gorfle]

63. I don't have a problem with any of that.

Enhanced Security, Improved Nation-Wide Background Checks.......and mandatory licensing.

I don't have a problem with any of these things. In fact I have advocated them in the past.

My proposed solution is very similar to to what the State of Illinois currently does. They require all firearm owners to be licensed, and they require for all private sales that you must request the buyer's FOID before completing the transaction and you must keep a record of the transaction for 10 years.

My only suggested difference is that we issue FOIDs to everyone (after passing the NICS background check), except those who choose to opt-out whenever they apply for a driver's license or state-issued ID. By using an opt-out system instead of an opt-in system, we preserve firearm ownership anonymity, while still providing the ability to trace firearms from owner to owner just as the current Illinois system does.

These measures wouldn't prevent every tragedy---the gun militancy movement has guaranteed easy access to a flood of guns in this country for decades---but it would reduce the number of such incidents to something closer to those of other advanced nations.

Personally I doubt it. I think you'll find that if you removed drug and gang-related firearm crime from US statistics we would already have statistics closer to other advanced nations. And since no firearm licensing scheme is going to stop the multi-billion dollar, multi-national industry that is the drug trade, you'll see very little impact on them in terms of availability of firearms.

Do any of these proposals have a chance at the present time? No. It's going to take yet another gut-wrenching political assassination to make them possible. God help us, it's not a question of whether but when......

I think you would be surprised. Many firearm owners favor universal background checks, even for private sales - so long as you can preserve firearm ownership anonymity. A system like that currently in Illinois would to the trick nicely if you made it an opt-out instead of an opt-in system.

[Paladin]

70. I'm Going To Break My Usual Practice Of Not Posting In The Guns Forum....

...to express my thanks to you for a thoughtful, well-stated response. No, I don't agree with you on every aspect of your comments, but I think you and I are a lot closer on this issue than I would have imagined. Regards......

[FunkyLeprechaun]

61. What would you suggest

in differentiating yourself from the criminal to the cops who arrive on the scene?

[Tim01]

64. If shooting starts you have choices to make.

If you decide to try to prevent the shooter from murdering your friends and family you have already increased the chance you are going to die, that is just life. Or you can run away as the murderer kills people.
Have some call the cops and give them a description of what you are wearing and explain you are not the shooter. It might help, it might not.
It is not likely the cops will get there before you stop the bad guy or he kills you. But if they do you need to drop the gun and surrender like you mean it.

Non-uniformed cops get shot by other cops fairly frequently.

[gorfle]

62. Highly emotionally charged.

Yeah, And We All Know From Recent History.........that neither churches nor school campuses are "highly emotionally charged" venues, right? Jesus wept.

I have found all church services I have ever attended to be very lade back, even somber, and school at be a very business-like atmosphere.

You're just spewing the usual gun militancy agenda, which proclaims that essentially all non-gun-friendly places in this country are an abomination.

Yes, they are. Any place that denies my my constitutionally enumerated rights is an abomination. I find "free speech zones" to likewise be an abomination. I find the idea that when I go to engage in political protest I am relegated to an out-of-sight, out-of-mind location to do it abhorrent.

How about working toward schools and churches where massacres don't occur, rather than making the entire nation even more of an armed camp than it already is?

Human nature being what it is, I have no idea how to make this happen. The best we can do is protect ourselves against human nature.

How about avoiding the sort of sick, paranoid mindset that accompanies such an armed camp mentality---the sort of mindset that is on continuous exhibit in the DU Guns forum? I guess those concepts just never, ever occur to you people, do they?

What you call the "armed camp mentality" I just call the "being prepared mentality". Taking personal responsibility for your safety by being armed is no more an "armed camp mentality" than buying fire insurance or buying smoke detectors or fire extinguishers for my home, or a spare tire or first-aid kit for my automobile. It's not that I'm "paranoid" about fires, or flat tires, or accidents, nor do I even think I will be involved with them very often. Yet it is simple prudence to be prepared for such eventualities.

[iverglas]

45. "pseudo-public"

By pseudo-public what I mean is any privately-owned property that is open to the public at large during its operating hours.


No, really.

What you mean is: "I should be able to do what I fucking well please."

Funny how property rights just fall by the wayside when it's your whims vs. somebody else's property rights.

[gorfle]

65. Says the...

Funny how property rights just fall by the wayside when it's your whims vs. somebody else's property rights.

Says the person who wants to control how everyone's firearms are stored or sold.

[RC]

24. This church must not think their God can protect them from the evil atheists or whatever.

[spin]

54. Do you believe God protects you if you attend church? ...

it would be nice if it were true, however...

On Sunday 27 March 1994, one of the most deadly tornado outbreaks in recent history occurred in the Southeastern United States. The deadliest storms occurred in northern Alabama and northern Georgia, mainly during the late morning and early afternoon hours. Many of the deaths occurred as the largest tornado (ranked F4 on the Fujita Scale) move northeastward from Calhoun County AL into Cherokee County AL, striking the Goshen United Methodist Church at 11:39 AM CDT (1739 UTC) during a Palm Sunday service. As a result, the roof of the building collapsed, killing 20 people and injuring 90 (U.S. Dept of Commerce 1994).
http://www.ems.psu.edu/~diercks/gaddy.html

[flor de jasmim]

25. They want to show they're "responsible" gun owners? Take a picture, not the gun!

[jody]

28. "Put your trust in God, my boys, and keep your powder dry!" from "Oliver's Advice" by Blacker n/t

[Tim01]

29. I don't actually understand what the preacher is trying to accomplish.

He has put together some of the cornerstones of rural America all together. And that is fine. But he is looking kind of wacky while he does it. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Would it make sense to have a gay pride event at the abortion clinic with giant anti-war banners? Probably not.

Maybe this was kind of a protest against what they see as "the other side", the election of Obama, political correctness, and all that.

Just a bit strange.

[defendandprotect]

33. 'Cause that's what Jesus would want --

The Bible sells "god the warrior" --

time to throw that violent "god" overboard!

[Stellabella]

34. WWJS?

Who Would Jesus Shoot?

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

37. I have so much to say about this, but not enough words.

Instead, I'll simply put it this way:

Jesus Wept.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Unca Jim]

38. I like guns and all...

but handguns are *specifically built for killing people*, unlike rifles and shotguns.

They seem a poor choice in a church supposedly obeying commandments about not killing.

[spin]

43. "Thou shat not kill" is a mistranslation...

There are several strong arguments for the case that the sixth commandment should be translated as "Thou shalt not murder." First, the verb used in the Torah commandment is "ratsah," which generally is translated as murder and refers only to criminal acts of killing a human being. The word "kill" generally refers to the taking of life for all classes of victims and for all reasons. This generalization is expressed through a different Hebrew verb "harag."

Another compelling argument against the "Thou shalt not kill" translation is that there are many places in the Hebrew scriptures that command or condone warfare, the sacrifice of animals, and several methods of capital punishment. While there is much in the Jewish tradition that attempts to limit war and capital punishment, and the biblical prophets indicated that God prefers justice and mercy to animal sacrifices, it can’t be denied that some forms of killing are acceptable according to Judaism.
http://www.jewishveg.com/schwartz/killormurder.html

I should also point out that your statement but handguns are *specifically built for killing people*, unlike rifles and shotguns. is totally wrong.

True, a handgun will kill a person. However, it was designed primarily as a defensive weapon. You will notice that a military unit doesn't often launch an assault with the soldiers using handguns. They attack with rifles and sometimes shotguns.

Count the number of handguns the soldiers have in their hands in this picture.


And of course, handguns are often used for sport, from plinking tin cans to Olympic completion. (You can review the Olympic pistol competitions at this link: http://www.myoan.net/shootingart/sm_pist_olym.html

Also, handguns are commonly used in hunting in many states.

Despite the enthusiasm of a small but devoted group of followers, hunting game with a handgun remains a pretty esoteric business. Its satisfactions are great, but its practitioners are few.

Handgun hunting for other game, however, is a growing phenomena. More hunters are going afield with handguns every year, more states are allowing handguns to be used on big game, and better products are making it all feasible. If you've considered hunting with a handgun, now's the time to accept the challenge.
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CFPage?storeId=10151&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&&mode=article&objectID=30232&catID=&subcatID=0

You can argue that many criminals use handguns because they are concealable and easy to access. (And I can argue that many citizens use handguns for self defense, as that is what they were designed for.)

I respect your opinion, but you are sadly misguided to either the Bible or the function of handguns.

I should also mention, that God doesn't put an envelop of safety around churches. In fact some mass murderers view churches as shooting galleries.

[Unca Jim]

50. Not to put too fine a point on it...

How do you defend yourself with a pistol? By killing the other person. Handguns are for killing people.

Arguing whether or not those killings are justified or if they are murder or or if they are prohibited by the bible is a separate issue. Handguns are specifically for killing people.

Rifles and shotguns are mainly used for killing animals.


And yes, I understand that cars and food kill more people than handguns and I understand the vast majority of handgun owners are responsible and don't kill people with their handguns.


In general, religion is not for killing people and handguns are, so the juxtaposition seemed weird to me.

[X_Digger]

55. "Rifles and shotguns are mainly used for killing animals. "

Only 1 in 5 gun owners hunts, so based on common usage, you'd be wrong.

[spin]

60. Another misconception...

You say:

How do you defend yourself with a pistol? By killing the other person. Handguns are for killing people.

Arguing whether or not those killings are justified or if they are murder or or if they are prohibited by the bible is a separate issue. Handguns are specifically for killing people.

In the first place the defense use of a handgun involves stopping an attack, not necessary killing the attacker. The attacker may be killed by a lucky or extremely well placed, shot but more likely, he'll be wounded if hit. Handguns are not as lethal as the movies portray.

I will quote a Dept. Of Justice report:

With the exceptions of hits to the brain or upper spinal cord, the concept of reliable and reproducible immediate incapacitation of the human target by gunshot wounds to the torso is a myth.27 The human target is a complex and durable one. A wide variety of psychological, physical, and physiological factors exist, all of them pertinent to the probability of incapacitation. However, except for the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed, none of the factors are within the control of the law enforcement officer.

Physiologically, a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed.28

****snip****

Conclusions

Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.
http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html

If you find the source of the article questionable check this PDF version which does not allow any copying:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

And if you take the time to read newspapers you will find scores of incidents where people have been shot in the body and survived.

The old quote "handguns are specifically built for killing people" is patently false and merely Brady Campaign propaganda. Handguns serve many purposes but if they are designed only to kill people, they fail miserably at that function. They are a good self defense weapon for stopping an attack if used proficiently. They also serve in many other functions as a tool for sport or hunting.

You could also make a similar statement that a locking pocket knife is designed for killing people as when locked it is in effect a deadly fixed blade knife. Of course this ignores the many purposes pocket knives or even fixed blade knives serve. This might sound ridiculous until you check the knife laws in the United Kingdom where carry of a common locking folder is illegal in public unless required as a tool for a job you are working on at the time.

There are a number of good arguments that you can use to oppose handguns. And I, and others on this forum, can reply with good arguments to counter yours. The idea that handguns are only for killing is old and worn out. Let's debate on newer, more up to date arguments.

We both might enjoy the exercise.

[rrneck]

73. In general, religion is not for killing people and handguns are

It's always interesting to check out the Guns forum and then check out the Religion/Theology forum. They are remarkably similar.

Just as a firearm can be used for offense and defense, religion can be used to enlighten or to condemn.

It's all in how they are uses since they are both just tools.

[Tim01]

68. I dissagree

If a cop carries a handgun it is to get a bad guy to stop hurting people, more or less.
Civilians carry the handgun for the same reason. I carry to prevent bad guys from hurting me or innocents. If the bad guy gets killed in the process it is a side issue. If I could carry something that was actually effective that wasn't dangerous I would be really pleased to carry it. But nothing else works nearly as well.

[iverglas]

44. but I'll bet you can see the link

between right-wing assholes and gun militancy.

Pagano's Protestant church, which attracts up to 150 people to Sunday services in a conservative neighborhood of southwest Louisville, belongs to the Assemblies of God. He thought up the event after some church members expressed concern about members of President Barack Obama administration's views on gun control, though the president hasn't moved to put new restrictions on ownership.

Across town, a coalition of peace and church groups concerned about Pagano's appeal to gun owners staged their own gun-free event.

... Pagano's event also troubled his church's longtime insurance carrier, which declined to insure the event and informed him it won't renew the policy. He found a new carrier at a cost of $700 for the day, but guns had to be unloaded.

Snork.

Oh, ignorant right-wing assholes.

Pagano says (apparently in an NYT interview quoted around the net):
"Guns and God were part of the foundation of this country."
"As a Christian pastor I believe that without a deep-seeded belief in God and firearms that this country would not be here."


You just know that Pagano and his flock voted a straight Democratic ticket, doncha?

I just can't figure how it is that right-wing fundies -- the ones who oppose equal rights for gay men and lesbians and try to deny women access to reproductive health care and brainwash children into believing that "abstinence" will keep them safe -- are the only religious types that anybody can ever dredge up to show ... well, I don't know, what are we seeing here?

That right-wing assholes are right-wing assholes?

Yeah, I think that's it.

[Xenotime]

47. The RW terrorists are really at it. This is going to get out of hand if something isn't done..

I'm just saying.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spin]

56. Thou shalt not MURDER is the correct translation...

Read the Bible, killing was rather common and accepted even after the Ten Commandments.

Consider the aftermath of the Battle of Jericho where the walls came tumbling down.

The Bible tells us that after crossing the Jordan, Joshua led the Israelites into Canaan where they laid siege to the city of Jericho. God spoke to Joshua telling him to march around the city once every day for six days with the seven priests carrying ram's horns in front of the ark. On the seventh day they were to march around the city seven times and the priests were to blow their ram's horns. This Joshua did, and he commanded his people not to give a war-cry until he told them to do so. On the seventh day, after marching around the city the seventh time, the priests sounded their ram's horns, and Joshua ordered the people to shout. The walls of the city collapsed, and the Israelites were able to charge straight into the city. The city was completely destroyed, and every man, woman, and child in it was killed. Only Rahab and her family were spared, because she had hid the two spies sent by Joshua. After this Joshua burned the remains of the city and cursed any man who would rebuild the city of Jericho at the cost of his firstborn son. emphasis mine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jericho

[Xenotime]

59. Clinging to their religion and their guns all in one location. Convenient

[slackmaster]

67. Amazingly, nobody was injured or killed

:D

[rrneck]

74. To me, this is just plain wacky.

You have a gift for understatement.