GUNS IN THE NEWS--November 19, 2003

[MrBenchley]

As CO Liberal sez:
Please try to adhere to the following guidelines, in order that we can have an orderly discussion of gun-related news topics:
1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current for the Monday thread, stories should have been originally posted to the 'Net on Saturday, Sunday, or Monday. (This allows for the fact than many people are off-line over the weekend, allowing the Monday thread to be a weekend summary.) On all other days of the week, stories should have been originally within the previous 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board.
2 - Both pro-gun and anti-gun stories are welcome in this thread, as well as gun-related editorials, as long as they're current. Please do not post links to stories or articles from a few years back that support your position.
3 - Bear in mind that any links to extremely right-wing sites (such as Newsmax, CNS, or the Washington Times) or intentionally pro-gun or pro-control sites (such as the NRA's or Handgun Control, Inc.) are not cosidered reliable sources by many DU-ers. If at all possible, try to find a link from a more mainstream source, such as a general-circulation newspaper or magazine site.
4 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People", or anything else that changes the meaning of the story.
5 - If it's not clear from the title where the story occurred, add the city, state, or country in parentheses after the title.
6 - Comment on a story by replying to that story.
7 - Please direct your comments to the story, rather than attacking the person posting the story or any person responding to the story. In accorance with DU rules, any messages that appear to be personal attacks against another DU-er will be reported to the moderators.

[MrBenchley]

1. 3-Year-Old Shot by 4-Year Old Brother (UT)

On National Ammo day, another family made safer by guns...

"WEST VALLEY CITY, Utah - A 4-year-old boy shot his 3-year-old brother to death after apparently unlocking a home safe where a handgun had been stored, police said.
West Valley Police Captain Craig Black said the 4-year-old apparently found the keys to the safe, unlocked it and used the handgun inside to shoot his brother in the head. The 3-year-old died at the scene.
The children's mother was home when the shooting occurred in this Salt Lake City suburb. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031119/ap_on_re_us/child_shot_2

"A MESSAGE FROM YOUR PEDIATRICIAN

Whether you have an infant or a teenager, keeping a gun at home poses a very real danger to your family. As a parent, you are already familiar with safety measures such as seat belts, bicycle helmets, window guards, and locking up medicines and poisons. This brochure provides easy steps you can take now to reduce the risk of gun injury— steps that can save you and your family considerable pain later.

The safest thing is to not have a gun in your home, especially not a handgun."

http://www.aap.org/advocacy/d1family.htm

[CO Liberal]

2. Looking for Girl, D.C. Police Find Guns Instead

I don't care HOW they find illegal weaons, as long as they find them. - Wayne

* * * * *

Looking for Girl, D.C. Police Find Guns Instead

Officers Stumble Upon Illicit Cache

By David A. Fahrenthold
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, November 19, 2003; Page B03

A D.C. police raid aimed at capturing a teenage girl instead turned up a cache of 16 rifles, pistols and shotguns early yesterday morning in a Northeast Washington apartment, authorities said.

Police said their discovery was a stroke of luck: The teenage fugitive turned out not to be home, but as officers searched the apartment, they saw rifles in a bedroom.

Three men and a woman were arrested at the apartment in the 1400 block of Eastern Avenue NE, including a man who lit a marijuana cigarette while officers were questioning him, police said.

Police Capt. Christopher Cummings said the discovery was an important find. "We can't say, 'We got X amount of guns off the streets, we stopped X amount of crime,' " he said. But, he added, "This is a good day, to say the least."

<more>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59692-2003Nov18.html

[DoNotRefill]

16. So house-to-house searches...

without probable cause that a crime has been committed, is A-OK with you, as long as they're looking for guns?

So much for your masquerading as ANY kind of civil libertarian....

[CO Liberal]

19. Wow.....What a Stretch!!!

They weren't conducting house-to-house searches. It was a targeted search, and while they didn't find the person they were looking for, they did find illegal guns.

:shrug:

[DoNotRefill]

25. Actually, I was referring to this:

"I don't care HOW they find illegal weaons, as long as they find them. - Wayne"

[CO Liberal]

30. Boy, You Sure Read a Lot More Into That Than I Wrote

Looks like your paranoia is showing......

:-)

[DoNotRefill]

46. How is it paranoia?

You made an extremely broad statement. The scenario I put forth CERTAINLY falls within it.

[CO Liberal]

3. Deputy shoots man threatening wife with gun (TX)

Another family kept safe by guns on National Ammo Day. - Wayne

* * * * *

Deputy shoots man threatening wife with gun

By S.K. BARDWELL
Copyright 2003 Houston Chronicle

A Baytown area man was shot and killed by a sheriff's deputy overnight as he raised a gun during a dispute with his wife.

Deputies were called to the home on Docent near Sjolander near midnight to deal with the man, who was reported to be threatening his family with a gun. Deputies said they had been called to the home before in response to disputes.

Looking into the home through a patio door saw the man raise his weapon, a deputy fired one time, killing the man, deputies said.

The man's wife was unharmed, and deputies said two children in the home were asleep when the shooting happened.

<more>

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2234450

[CO Liberal]

4. Kennedy: GOP senator holding bill for plastic gun ban

The Republicans do the gun lobby's bidding, in honor of National Ammo Day. - Wayne

* * * * *

Kennedy: GOP senator holding bill for plastic gun ban

WASHINGTON (AP) --A bill to ban plastic guns which terrorists could slip past airport metal detectors has been blocked in the Senate by an anonymous GOP senator, Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass. said Tuesday.

"That's unacceptable, and the Senate leadership has a responsibility to act," Kennedy said. "The need for action before Congress adjourns is obvious. An undetectable Republican senator cannot be permitted to embarrass the entire Senate by blocking action" on the bill.

Under Senate rules, any senator can stop a bill from being approved by placing a "hold" on the legislation without their name revealed.

Lawmakers want to reauthorize the Terrorist Firearm Detection Act of 1988, which bans the creation or possession of plastic firearms. Military and intelligence agencies are exempt.

<more>

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/11/18/national1840EST0743.DTL

[MrBenchley]

7. You might recall....

that back in 1988, virtually the only numbnutz to vote for plastic guns was Deadheart Dick Cheney.

[demsrule4life]

12. Moot point

It was proved in the senate building that a toy gun made 100% out of plastic could not escape the x-ray machine.

[madddog]

22. You're obviously a firearms expert...

so could you please tell me where I can find a plastic gun? I've looked for them, but I can't find one ANWHERE. Could you please tell me who makes a plastic gun, and where I can look at one? Thanks...

[MrBenchley]

23. Duhhhhhh!!

"could you please tell me where I can find a plastic gun? I've looked for them, but I can't find one ANWHERE."
Gee,, I wonder why that is?

"Lawmakers want to reauthorize the Terrorist Firearm Detection Act of 1988, which bans the creation or possession of plastic firearms."

RKBA "logic"....No wonder these folks think Mary Rosh is a real scientist.

[jhfenton]

29. Imaginary Weapons

I can tell you why there are no undetectible plastic firearms: because the technology to make them doesn't currently exist, and won't exist in the foreseeable future. Any composite material dense enough to withstand the pressures required for a firearm will show up on X-ray machines as easily as metal.

This is just another gun-banner red herring. Why don't we ban the creation of phasers and laser pistols? They could sneak through airport security posing as MP3 players.

[MrBenchley]

31. And real-life scum

And if there hadn't been a ban, the corrupt industry that gave America the Bushmaster, the fingerprint-proof finish and the Bullseye Gun Shop would have these on the market...and ravimg gun loonies all over the internet would be gloating that no law could have prevented the tragedies that had occured.

"This is just another gun-banner red herring."
You stand over there with Cheney, then...and I'll stand over here with decent sane people..

[pnb]

39. ha ha ha!!

You can actually make a wild leap like that after lambasting someone else for their "logic?!?"

That's the funniest thing I've read all week!

[Stilgar]

49. Wow with logic like that

who can argue.

I can. There is no such thing as a plastic gun. Titanium guns still have to have steel barrels to fire.

You argument lacks this fatal flaw in logic though - If we didn't have this ban, their would still be no plastic guns.

When you make a law that has no hope of doing anything, it is a dumb law. Their is no use in pushing a law that does nothing.
What is worse is that to justify a law, they are pointing to a Clint Eastwood movie as the only real proof that a law is needed, and the gun in the movie was a prop.

Lets make a law barring invisable friends. What's the harm, they dont exist anyway.
Someone needs to show congress better time waisting activities, like solitare, or hearts, at least I would think congress is doing something more important than trying to ban things that dont exist.

[MrBenchley]

50. Tell it to Dick Cheney

He's the idiot who voted for them.

[Wild Bill]

26. thanks for the heads up on....

Thanks for the heads up national ammo day. I had forgotten. I will have to buy a brick of lr 22 when I go grocery shopping.

Hey it’s also the 140th anniversary of the Gettysburg Address today.

[jhfenton]

28. National Ammo Day

Thanks for supporting National Ammo Day. I guess you missed the entire National Ammo Day thread I started. :) I'm going to buy some .22LR and some .40S&W at lunch today, myself.

[DonP]

35. .223, Mauser 8 mm, .303 and 7.62 x 54R

Got to feed my two EBR's and growing Milsurp collection and I gots lots of 30-06 for the Garands.

[CO Liberal]

5. Gun lobby hinders FBI terror hunt

For those of you who belong to the Nuts Ruining America, this is yet another example of your dues money at work. - Wayne

* * * * *

Gun lobby hinders FBI terror hunt

Julian Borger in Washington
Wednesday November 19, 2003
The Guardian

The FBI now has the power to conduct extensive surveillance of suspected terrorists except if the suspect successfully buys a gun, because of a loophole backed by the gun lobby, the Washington Post has reported.

The Post said the FBI is alerted if a terror suspect enters a gun shop and applies to buy a weapon under the National Instant Check System. But federal agents will not be told details of the purchase, or its location. Nor can they stop the sale on the grounds that the buyer is a suspected terrorist.

If the sale is blocked (on other grounds), the FBI will have access to all available information. If it goes ahead agents will remain in the dark, because justice department rules reflect the National Rifle Association's (NRA) demands on privacy for gun-owners.

The attorney-general, John Ashcroft, is a member and enthusiastic supporter of the NRA and was instrumental in thwarting the FBI from cross-checking lists of terror suspects against a list of approved gun purchases after the September 11 attacks.

<more>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usguns/Story/0,2763,1088057,00.html

[MrBenchley]

9. "Nor can they stop the sale" to a terrorist

Koresh forbid ANYTHING interfere with gun industry prof--I mean, principle and freedom.

[DoNotRefill]

14. So much...

for due process...or "innocent until proven guilty"...

Considering how many leftists are on the "watch lists" and "do not fly" lists for activities like protesting on various issues, I'm surprised that you're advocating stripping them of their rights when they haven't been accused of a crime, much less convicted. Oh, wait. Never mind...

[MrBenchley]

17. What a pantload...

"I'm surprised that you're advocating stripping them of their rights when they haven't been accused of a crime"
No, I'm advocating not letting the corrupt gun industrry arm them...which is not a "right" except in the minds of a handful of extremists.

[pnb]

41. Anyone who thinks that should be different...

...should also agree with denying suspected terrorists their rights to a speedy trial, etc.

Can't separate the two because someone might not like guns.

[CO Liberal]

6. Meth user brings gun into church (Nevada City, CA)

Another RKBA poster boy, in honor of National Ammo Day. - Wayne

* * * * *

Meth user brings gun into church

School emptied as man seeks to flee 'demons'

A 45-year-old Nevada City man fleeing imagined demons and carrying a loaded revolver was arrested at a church Monday afternoon, causing an evacuation of the site's preschool.

Dale Buchanan went to Calvary Chapel of Grass Valley, 10050 Wolf Road, in search of a safe haven from demons that he said were haunting him, Assistant Pastor Jeff Alaway said. Buchanan, who authorities said was high on methamphetamine, was carrying a .22-caliber fully loaded revolver for protection from demons, leading Alaway to call the Nevada County Sheriff's Office for help.

Alaway said kids were in after-school day care at the Christian preschool at about 2:30 p.m. when Buchanan came into the church paranoid and distraught. He told Alaway he had been to the gates of hell, shooting 60 rounds at demons in his trailer the previous night and using a roll of duct tape to protect the inside of his trailer.

"He said if it wasn't for Jesus Christ and this gun, he wouldn't have made it out of the trailer," Alaway said.

<more>

http://www.theunion.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20031119/NEWS/111190021

[pnb]

42. Not a legal gun owner though

n/t

[CO Liberal]

8. Doyle vetoes concealed gun bill (Wisconsin)

Gov. Doyle of Wisconsin has the balls to stand up to the gun lobby. - Wayne

* * * * *

Doyle vetoes concealed gun bill

Says it's unworkable, creates problems for kids, cops

Gov. Jim Doyle today vetoed the bill to allow the carrying of concealed weapons in Wisconsin, saying it "has serious flaws and is unworkable."

Joined by law enforcement officials at the Dane County Law Enforcement Training Center in the town of Westport, Doyle said concealed weapons would compromise the safety of children, create problems for business owners, require training that would ultimately be insufficient, and pose both financial and safety problems for police agencies.

"Wisconsin is one of the safest states in the country and boasts one of the lowest crime rates nationally," the governor said in his message to the Legislature. "Violent crime has decreased dramatically in our state in the past decade. We have maintained this low crime rate at the same time we have banned the carrying of concealed weapons.

"I join the majority of Wisconsin law enforcement in my belief that lifting the state's 133-year-old ban on the carrying of concealed weapons is neither warranted nor appropriate."

<more>

http://www.madison.com/captimes/news/stories/61511.php

[MrBenchley]

10. Frrom the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel:

"Doyle also said the measure would cost the state's 72 sheriffs about $3.7 million to administer and the state Justice Department about $1.8 million to do first-year criminal background checks on applicants for concealed weapons permits.
The veto was praised by the National Association of Social Workers; the Wisconsin Coalition Against Domestic Violence; a group of owners of Wisconsin Dells-area businesses; law-enforcement groups that included the Wisconsin Troopers' Association and the Wisconsin Sheriffs & Deputy Sheriffs Association; the Wisconsin Counties Association; and the Wisconsin Council on Children and Families."

More folks for the NRA blacklist there. Meanwhile the ban on concealed weapons had stood since 1870...and most citizens of the state oppose arming neurotics willy-nilly.

[madddog]

20. that's odd

the 40 plus OTHER states that have similar CCW laws on the books don't have similar problems...must be all the CHEESE they eat up there.

[DonP]

27. Veto over ride on the way

They already have the required 28 votes to over ride the veto.

They only need 24 votes and the original bill passed with 28 . The opposition is probably already lining up the court actions to stall the inevitable. My Wisconsin family said that it's important for Doyle to posture on this one, hence the high profile veto.

All the "blood in the streets" and "traffic shooting" rhetoric that always comes up and never happens didn't change anything.

The financial details are a bit misleading too. The licensing proposal would actually generate revenue for any sherriff office that participated.

My "cheddarhead" cousin is a deputy sheriiff up in Eagle River and they are "not" opting out of the measure. They think it will raise over $70,000 in extra funds for the force over the next five years. The more sherriff's that opt out, the more licenses they will be able to sell.

Of course I'm sure all the people that voted for it in Wisconsin are in the pocket of the evil, corrupt gun industry, just like every other legislator in all other 40 plus states that have allowed concealed carry for citizens. A lot of corrupt legislators out there, huh?

Don P.

[MrBenchley]

32. Yeah,, the gun lobby doesn't care

what citizens actually WANT...as long as a handful of armed neurotics can be loosed on the citizenry.

"A lot of corrupt legislators out there, huh?"
They're called the GOP.

[DonP]

33. Wow, all those corrupt states are GOP run?

Could'a fooled me. Including California, New York, Vermont et al. That will come as a real surprise to the Democratic legislators and governors in many of those CCW states.

So, if they vote for concealed carry they are automatically either GOP scum or DINO scum that sold out to the corrupt gun lobby for a handful of silver, (but wait, we have been told the NRA never gives to Democrats anyway so it can't be for money).

Nice circular logic. No "real" Democratic controlled state has ever let it's citizens carry I guess, since we have all been informed that you can't be a "real" Democrat and be for concealed carry or guns in general?

All 40 plus states must have had their citizen's real wishes over ridden by a few corrupt GOP officials and after all these years have done nothing about it. In fact even more states are passing this legislation every year.

Boy those citizens must all be so stupid out there that it's amazing they can even breathe with out guidance from the more enlightened amongst us.

But what anyone "thinks" doesn't count, what counts is how they vote and like it or not, it's the law in all those states and the trend is towards more.

Muster the votes., change the tide of opinion and we'll talk. Oh wait, if they can't get the votes to overturn the CCW then it's because the elections were corrupted too.

Don P.

[MrBenchley]

11. Gun Store Robbed of 30 Guns Was Hit Before (MD)

Some sure-fire deterrrent to crime these guns turned out to be, eh?

"(Burtonsville, Md.) - A Burtonsville gun store that was robbed this week was a target earlier this year as well.
At least 30 guns were stolen from "The Gun Rack" two nights ago, including 20 semi-automatic handguns and ten assault rifles. . Police say the door of the store was forced open and a glass display case was shattered. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/wjla/20031119/lo_wjla/gunstorerobbedof30gunswashitbefore

Sounds like they replaced the glass after the first robbery...what a sense of public responsibility they showed!

[pnb]

43. Huh?

"Some sure-fire deterrrent to crime these guns turned out to be, eh?"

Has ANYONE claimed that guns that aren't loaded or are just sitting around with no one to actually fire them were supposed to be some sort of threat or deterrent to criminals?

"Sounds like they replaced the glass after the first robbery...what a sense of public responsibility they showed!"

What should they have done then?

[MrBenchley]

13. Woman Shot In Back, Man In Custody (PA)

"A man who police believe shot a woman in the back, is in custody Tuesday.
Witnesses say they heard a gunshot in or around the house at 2680 Lititz Pike, and that shortly afterward, a woman who appeared to be in her late 20s ran across the street to a Turkey Hill.
The police responded to a 911 call from the clerk at Turkey Hill and found the woman wounded at the store."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031119/lo_wgal/1883924

[CO Liberal]

15. FYI.....

"Turkey Hill" is a chain of convenience stores in Pennsylvania, similar to 7-11.

[MrBenchley]

18. There's also a chain in the region called Wawa...

As in: "Go till you see the wawa and make a left...."

[CO Liberal]

21. One of the Items From "You Know You're From NJ When....."

You know what a Wawa is, and the locations for at least six of them.

:-)

(I'll send you the entire list by PM, MrBenchley.)

[MrBenchley]

24. Sounds good....

[MrBenchley]

34. Man killed in robbery after stopping for breakfast (WI)

"John P. Bagin often stopped for a quick breakfast at the McDonald's at N. 20th and W. Walnut streets on his way to work as a parking attendant downtown.
As he pulled into the parking lot early on the morning of Nov. 6, three young men were waiting. Within minutes they would end his life for the $62 in his pockets, according to a criminal complaint charging the men with felony murder.
Bagin, 30, refused several orders to get out of his car, even when one of the defendants pointed a gun at him. To rob him, he told the men, "You're going to have to shoot me."
So one of them did - although who pulled the trigger is in dispute, as the defendants blamed each other in statements to police."

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/nov03/186189.asp

[CO Liberal]

37. Happy National Ammo Day!!!

"Do you want hash brown with those bullets?"

[MrBenchley]

38. Next up:

February Third: Shoot A Stranger and Claim Self-Defense Day.....

...and don't forget to leave your loaded gun where the toddlers can get it for Eddie Eagle Day, June 7...after all, the onus is on them to go get an adult, not you to look after the rugrats' safety in any way.

[MrBenchley]

36. Greenville County Shooting Leaves Two Dead (NC)

"Investigators are at the scene of a reported shooting that has killed two people.
Deputies responded to the home on Club Road around 9:30 a.m. after EMS got a call from someone saying there was a shooting. When they arrived, they found two men dead. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031119/lo_wyff/1884373

[MrBenchley]

40. Shooting On Local Street Labeled Hate Crime (OH)

Bigotry AND guns...it's the true spirit of National Ammo Day, all right!

"A shooting on a local street early Wednesday is being called a hate crime by police.
Jamar Erkins, 22, who also goes by the name Tiffany Erkins, was shot in the leg just after 3 a.m. while walking on Vine Street in Over-the-Rhine, WLWT Eyewitness News 5 reported.
Erkins told police that two men pulled up in a car while she waited at a bus stop. The men yelled anti-homosexual slurs and fired five or six shots, police said. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031119/lo_wlwt/1884418

[MrBenchley]

44. HENNEPIN COUNTY: Suspect seeking lawyer change (MN)

"The woman charged with fatally shooting one person and injuring another at the Hennepin County Government Center cursed her predicament and asked for a new attorney during a hearing Tuesday.
Berkovitz, 52, of St. Paul was indicted in October on charges of first-degree murder and attempted first-degree murder. She was arrested shortly after the Sept. 29 shootings on the 17th floor of the government center outside a courtroom.
Killed was Berkovitz's cousin Shelley Joseph-Kordell, 56. Injured was Joseph-Kordell's attorney, 53-year-old Richard Hendrickson. Berkovitz and conservator Joseph-Kordell were involved in a long-running dispute over the estate of Berkovitz's parents."

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/local/7295651.htm

[MrBenchley]

45. Body Found In N.E. Bexar Co. Home (TX)

"The body of a 54-year-old man was found late Tuesday night at a home in northeast Bexar County.
Accompanied by a maid who had a key to a home at 6822 Burnley, Bexar County sheriff's deputies found the man laying in the master bedroom floor with multiple gunshot wounds around 9:30 p.m. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=391&ncid=391&e=3&u=/ibsys/20031119/lo_ksat/1884665

[MrBenchley]

47. Teen Brothers Accused Of Interstate Crime Spree (OH)

"Two teenage boys are facing charges in an interstate crime spree involving stolen guns, drugs and violence, according to police.
Paul Horton, 18, and his 16-year-old brother, of West Chester Township, are being held in South Carolina while authorities decided which state will be the first put the pair on trial, WLWT Eyewitness News 5's Joelle Girone reported.
According to police in Monroe, Ohio, the spree began Nov. 8 when the teens broke into a flea market, kicked down the door at the New World Arms gun shop and stole 11 guns, including two AK-47 assault rifles. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=410&ncid=410&e=1&u=/ibsys/20031119/lo_wlwt/1884109

[MrBenchley]

48. Mom: Couple Argued Over Internet Chats Before Murder-Suicide (OH)

"The mother of a man who allegedly fatally shot his wife over an Internet chat before killing himself says the two often bickered about the issue.
Police said Curtis H. Downs, 28, shot Daleleen Downs, 25, in their home Sunday night before shooting himself.
Curtis Downs' mother, Cynthia Downs, told an Indianapolis TV station Tuesday that she had advised the couple to stop Internet chats, which she said was a source of frequent argument.
"She would get on the computer and talk to guys, and she stated he had done the same -- talked to women on there," Cynthia Downs said. "And I told them, 'You might need to get rid of it if it's going to cause arguments between you two.' " "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=410&ncid=410&e=3&u=/ibsys/20031119/lo_wlwt/1884552

Maybe they were chatting with John Lott/Mary Rosh....