GUNS IN THE NEWS--November 21, 2003

[MrBenchley]

As CO Liberal sez:
Please try to adhere to the following guidelines, in order that we can have an orderly discussion of gun-related news topics:
1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current for the Monday thread, stories should have been originally posted to the 'Net on Saturday, Sunday, or Monday. (This allows for the fact than many people are off-line over the weekend, allowing the Monday thread to be a weekend summary.) On all other days of the week, stories should have been originally within the previous 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board.
2 - Both pro-gun and anti-gun stories are welcome in this thread, as well as gun-related editorials, as long as they're current. Please do not post links to stories or articles from a few years back that support your position.
3 - Bear in mind that any links to extremely right-wing sites (such as Newsmax, CNS, or the Washington Times) or intentionally pro-gun or pro-control sites (such as the NRA's or Handgun Control, Inc.) are not considered reliable sources by many DU-ers. If at all possible, try to find a link from a more mainstream source, such as a general-circulation newspaper or magazine site.
4 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People", or anything else that changes the meaning of the story.
5 - If it's not clear from the title where the story occurred, add the city, state, or country in parentheses after the title.
6 - Comment on a story by replying to that story.
7 - Please direct your comments to the story, rather than attacking the person posting the story or any person responding to the story. In accordance with DU rules, any messages that appear to be personal attacks against another DU-er will be reported to the moderators.

[MrBenchley]

1. Roommate Shot, Killed During Apparent Gun Game (MI)

Another responsible gun owner in action....

"Police say two roommates in their 20s were playing a game involving a 12-gauge shotgun -- in which they apparently imitated being SWAT agents -- when the weapon was fired.
One of the roommates was shot in the stomach and fell to the living room floor, according to police. He was later pronounced dead.
"We think they believed the shotgun was not loaded. Unfortunately, it was, and somehow the shotgun was discharged in the course of those games," said Lt. Don Foster of the Royal Oak Police Department. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031120/lo_wdiv/1886779

[CO Liberal]

2. Seeking the smoking gun in American violence

Food for thought - Wayne

* * * * * * * * * *

Seeking the smoking gun in American violence

If it weren't for Michael Moore's tendency to overstate his case, `Bowling for Columbine' would be even more disturbing and powerful in its portrayal of a country racked by fear and armed to the teeth

By A. O. Scott
NY TIMES NEWS SERVICE
Friday, Nov 21, 2003,Page 20

Michael Moore's new documentary, Bowling for Columbine, rapturously greeted at the Cannes Film Festival in May, opens tomorrow in Taipei after screening for over a year in other parts of the world to considerable controversy. Not that Moore, a cheerful rabble-rouser and author of the best seller Stupid White Men, would have it any other way. But in times of political anxiety and global insecurity -- most times, in other words -- arguments have a tendency to turn into shouting matches.

The most disappointing -- and the most likely -- response to Moore's disturbing, infuriating and often very funny film would be uncritical support from his ideological friends and summary dismissal from his foes. The slippery logic, tendentious grandstanding and outright demagoguery on display in Bowling for Columbine should be enough to give pause to its most ardent partisans, while its disquieting insights into the culture of violence in America should occasion sober reflection from those who would prefer to stop their ears.

I hope the movie is widely seen and debated with appropriate ferocity and thoughtfulness. Does that sound evasive? I'm sorry if it does, but at the moment, political certainty seems to me to be a cheap and abundant commodity, of much less value than honest ambivalence.

Moore, in the good-natured, confrontational style familiar from Roger and Me and TV Nation, his sadly short-lived series on Fox, tracks his subject far and wide: a little too far and a little too wide perhaps. His starting point is the horrific massacre at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado. Like everyone else, he wonders how such a thing could have happened and what it says about contemporary US society.

<more>

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2003/11/21/2003076754

[CO Liberal]

3. Taft's latest demand may derail new gun bill efforts (Ohio)

One voice of reason in Ohio. BTW, he's a Republican; probably the only Republican besides Sarah Brady who does not kiss the gun lobby's collective ass. - Wayne

* * * * * * * * * *

Taft's latest demand may derail new gun bill efforts

By JIM SIEGEL
Eagle-Gazette Columbus Bureau

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

COLUMBUS -- Gov. Bob Taft is threatening to veto legislation that would allow people to carry hidden guns unless it requires the state to disclose the names of those who are issued permits.

A joint House-Senate committee is working to craft a bill Taft will sign, but his latest demand may derail the effort.

Taft sent a letter this week to House and Senate leaders saying people have the right to know who is carrying a concealed weapon. He said he will veto the bill if current language remains that would keep private or destroy documents related to the gun permitting process.

"It's also important for the public and, on behalf of the public, the news media to have access to basic information about the permit process itself -- information to determine, for example, how many permits get issued and where they are issued," Taft wrote.

<more>

http://www.lancastereaglegazette.com/news/stories/20031121/localnews/682717.html

[jhfenton]

22. Actually, Ohio is cursed with several.

Gov. Bob "Tax Hike" Taft
Sen. Mike DeW(h)ine
Sen. George Voinovich

Taft has made himself irrelevant. He's about as popular as ex-Gov. Davis was in California. I was at our Democratic Club meeting last night talking with my state rep, and Taft is a huge joke up in Columbus now. The only reason anyone listens to him is that he holds appointments over the heads of term-limited reps and senators.

[CO Liberal]

4. Teen Shot Dead Playing with Gun (Texas)

Yet another family kept safe by guns. I know the general rule is only fouor paragraphs, but I included more because they're single-sentence paragraphs. - Wayne

* * * * * * * * * *

Teen Shot Dead Playing with Gun

Two teens playing with a gun, now one of them is dead. Paul Guajardo's family laid him to rest Wednesday, and they want the shooter to pay.

By Matari Jones
News 4 WOAI

Chris Spencer was Paul’s best friend. “He was more than a friend,” says Spencer. “He was like a brother to me.”

Bianca Guajardo is PAUL’s Twin Sister. “He was funny, loving, out-going, and had a good sense of humor.” Said Bianca.

And Paul was popular. Hundreds of friends gathered to say goodbye to 16-year old Paul Guajardo.

Crystal Ojeda was Paul’s Classmate.

“He was very nice and loving and he never did nothing wrong and no one knows why this happened,” Crystal told News 4 WOAI.

What happened is that Guajardo was shot dead after he and a friend were playing with a gun.

<more>

http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=22CA7295-D138-4845-9274-39CE7AB7A8A6

[CO Liberal]

5. Hunter loses gun on opening day (Michigan)

Yet another responsible gun owner - Wayne

* * * * * * * * * *

Hunter loses gun on opening day

Gladwin County Record

Michigan State Police Troopers at the Gladwin Post received a report of a lost firearm on opening morning of deer season.

A Beaverton man told Troopers that he drove from his resident on Oak Ridge Drive to Beaverton Road via Hunter Road, M-18 and Dale Road, and upon arriving at his hunting area, realized his gun had fallen from the back of his truck.

<more>

http://www.gladwinmi.com/placed/story/11-20-2003lostgun.html

[CO Liberal]

6. ATF Cracks Down On Illegal Gun Possession (Vermont)

Taking this to its logical conclusion, if "gun control" is "crime control", then "pro-gunners" are "pro-crime", right? - Wayne

* * * * * * * * * *

ATF Cracks Down On Illegal Gun Possession

ATF Agent: It's Crime Control, Not Gun Control

POSTED: 8:52 p.m. EST November 20, 2003

BURLINGTON, Vt. -- Federal law enforcement officials are calling a new program to crack down on the illegal possession of guns in Vermont crime control, not gun control.

Police said the goal of Project Safe Neighborhoods -- PSN -- is to get guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them in the first place. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agent David Campbell said lots of guns are moving in and out of Vermont quickly. He said the weapons are used almost like a form of currency.

"There is a major concern about people dealing drugs and using drugs being in the state, and coming into the state for the purpose of possessing firearms," Campbell said. "It's not an epidemic yet, like it would be in New York City or some other major urban areas, but it's something we're beginning to see and PSN will help to stem that tide."

"We have a tremendous history of responsible gun ownership in this state, but you know the saying, a few bad apples can spoil the barrel," said Vermont Attorney General William Sorrell.

<more>

http://www.thechamplainchannel.com/news/2654066/detail.html

[Wcross]

35. About time

"We have a tremendous history of responsible gun ownership in this state, but you know the saying, a few bad apples can spoil the barrel," said Vermont Attorney General William Sorrell.

Maybe he is on to something- go after the criminals with guns?

[CO Liberal]

7. 1 gun seizure in carthage 11-21 (Indiana)

Interesting name for a newspaper, the Rushville Republican. :-) - Wayne

* * * * * * * * * *

1 gun seizure in carthage 11-21

Weapons cache confiscated in Carthage

Acting on a tip, officers from the Rush County Sheriff's Department along with Carthage Town Marshal Russell Silver conducted a search of a Carthage residence early Thursday morning. As the officers searched the dwelling, David L. Winship, 36, of Carthage, returned home.

Detective Joe Jarman of the RCSD said he contacted personnel from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) and learned that in 1999, Winship had been convicted of being in possession of a sawed-off shotgun.

As a result of that conviction, he was prohibited from being in possession of firearms or assault weapons of any kind.

During the search of the residence located at 15 Main Street in Carthage, officers confiscated seven weapons including two pistols, a shortened-barrel 12 gauge shotgun, two Mac 90s (which are similar to AK-47s), and two SKS assault weapons.

<more>

http://www.rushvillerepublican.com/cgi-bin/LiveIQue.acgi$rec=16900?rr_story

[MrBenchley]

10. You know the top stories in that paper...

...concern holiday decor going up on lampposts around town and a mountain of cornccobs in a field catching fire...damned liberal media must be covering up the stories about the hordes of murdering heathens roaming the countryside that would make an arsenal like that so necessary...

[Wcross]

36. About time

Maybe more enforcement of current gun laws should be done before we talk about new gun laws?

[MrBenchley]

8. Grunow's Attorneys File Appeal In Gun Decision (FL)

"Attorneys for the widow of a teacher who was fatally shot by a Lake Worth Middle School student filed an appeal Wednesday in their case against a gun distributor.
Attorneys for Pam Grunow, whose husband Barry Grunow was killed by Nathaniel Brazill, filed an appeal in the case against the Valor Corp.
A jury originally found Valor partially responsible for Grunow's death, but a judge reversed the verdict earlier this year."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031120/lo_wpbf/1886597

Cat-killer Frist better hustle that bill through Congress, or Valor might actually have to pay for its irresponsible behavior!

[BullDozer]

37. Greed

A jury originally found Valor partially responsible for Grunow's death

5%, the jury found Valor to be 5% at fault for selling a gun to a dealer in excess of thirteen years before this murder happened.

The gun is manufactured by Raven (Went out of business in 1991 due to a fire).

The distributor sells the gun to a shop (1987 or before) (shops insurance company paid $275,000 to head off any litigation)

The store sells the gun to someone not named in the lawsuit (appx 1987)

Gun is given or sold, by said person or other person unknown to me, to McCray.

Murderer steals gun from McCray in May of 2000 and on May 26th goes to his school and kills Barry Grunow.

Follow the money
Manufacturer Raven - $0, no money to be had they are out of business.

Distributor Valor- $1.2million(5% of $24 million), then plaintiff asked for the entire $24 million to be assigned to them. At that point the judge found fault in the initial finding of blame and threw the $1.2million award out.

Seller-Hypoluxo Pawn Shop settled for $275,000 in lieu of court.

Unknown intermidiate person- $0

McCray, 77 years old, who had the gun for eight years before it was stolen by Brazill,- $12 million (found to have 50% liability) Settled for $300,000.

The School District that didn't provide tight enough security so that a kid couldn't get a gun into the school? (Found to be 45% responsible) "In 2000, Pam Grunow and the school board reached a settlement that included buying an annuity for $245,000 to ensure the widow and her children receive Barry Grunow's salary for 17 more years. In return, she agreed not to sue the school district. "


She is looking for a fat wallet to rape and there is only one left exposed because everyone else has been settled with.

She got greedy once before, when she asked that the entire $24 million settlement be assigned to Valor, and got thrown out of court because of it. It should happen again. And her scumbag lawyer shoudl be disbarred for being an idiot;Bob Montgomery, a prominent personal injury attorney (ambulance chasing greaseball!) who won an $11.3 billion settlement against the tobacco industry, had sought $76 million in damages against Valor..

[MrBenchley]

43. Ugliness...

A jury originally found Valor partially responsible for Grunow's death, no matter how hard you spin it, dozer.

And the only idiot around here is anyone who pretends that Valor has no responsibility....or that this widow is greedy.

[BullDozer]

49. Try the facts

A jury originally found Valor partially responsible for Grunow's death, no matter how hard you spin it, dozer.

There was no spin, in my post I wrote "5%, the jury found Valor to be 5% at fault for selling a gun to a dealer in excess of thirteen years before this murder happened."

The widow Grunow got into trouble when she revelad her greed by asking that the entire $24 million settlement be assigned to Valor and the judge in that case found that the jury could not assign any fault to Valor citing the fact that the jury held the firearm used was not defective, so Valor could not be held responsible when it had legally sold a lawful, non-defective firearm.

The jury held the firearm used was not defective, so how is Valor really at fault here?

Face it Bench she is showing her greed.

Her lawyer initially wanted $76 million.

They got a $24 Million award

$12 million of the fault was assigned to a guy who settled for $300,000

$10.8 million of the fault was assigned to the school district who settled for $245,000.

$1.2 million of the fault was assigned to Valor, who the jury in fact found did nothing wrong, and the greedy blood suckers then went after for the full $24 million and it got thrown out of court.

Those are clear and simple facts and any honest person can see that it's all about greed at this point.

[MrBenchley]

50. I stick with the facts, dozer...

Now go snivel about how awful it is that a jury ruled against your holy fetish object to some fellow worshiper.

[BullDozer]

51. No you don't

Now go snivel about how awful it is that a jury ruled against your holy fetish object to some fellow worshiper.

Uh no they didn't! Try reading and comprehending the FACTS!


The jury could not assign any fault to Valor citing the fact that the jury held the firearm used was not defective, so Valor could not be held responsible when it had legally sold a lawful, non-defective firearm.

[MrBenchley]

55. Sure I do.....

The jury found Valor responsible. Now go snivel about what a shame it is to somebody who shares your tender concern for this corrupt bunch of scum.

[BullDozer]

56. No

The jury found Valor responsible

The jury could not assign any fault to Valor. Period.

Otherwise why did it get overturned?

greed greed greed, period.

[MrBenchley]

58. Yes...

"A jury originally found Valor partially responsible for Grunow's death, but a judge reversed the verdict earlier this year."

Now go on sniveling about it...

[BullDozer]

60. No

The jury could not assign any fault to Valor citing the fact that the jury held the firearm used was not defective.

The jury could say that Valor was at fault but the jury themselves negated that by holding that the firarm sold was not defective.

[MrBenchley]

61. Yes

"A jury originally found Valor partially responsible for Grunow's death, but a judge reversed the verdict earlier this year."

Now go snivel about the insult to your holy fetish to someone who gives a crap.

[BullDozer]

63. No

I don't care what that article that is clearly wrong says and that you are basing your entire arguement on.

The jury could NOT in fact find Valor to be responsible because the very same jury held that the firearm used was not defective.

Valor was not negligent in supplying (to a licensed gun dealer) the small, cheap pistol, nor did it sell an "unreasonably dangerous and defective product."


No go try to sell your bullshit to ignorant people who might be conned into believing you.

The widow Grunow is greedy and has a blooodthirsty scum sucking piece of shit for a lawyer. Hell McCray and the school board were not even defendants in the suit.

She didn't sue them because there was no money to be had from them!

[MrBenchley]

64. Hahahahahahaha!!

Between the newspaper article and you,, which one do you suppose has the credibility? Here's a little hint:

"A jury originally found Valor partially responsible for Grunow's death, but a judge reversed the verdict earlier this year."

[BullDozer]

65. Greed greed greed

Between the newspaper article and you,, which one do you suppose has the credibility?

Here's a big FACT for you.. When it comes to an issues involving guns most people, after reading the crap you post, are going to find that bush and ashcroft would be a better judge of credibility than you are. How very sad for you.



In fact since you seemd to be in love with this sentence A jury originally found Valor partially responsible for Grunow's death, but a judge reversed the verdict earlier this year lets see how it compares to the bradybunches version. Oh no they say "The jury verdict has since been invalidated through a directed verdict by the judge.".

Exactly why is that? It's because the jury found that Valor was not negligent in supplying (to a licensed gun dealer) the small, cheap pistol, nor did it sell an "unreasonably dangerous and defective product."

The 5% bullshit was pure pity for the widow Grunow. I'd bet they wouldn't have tried to award that, while at the same time including a decision that would ensure they weren't actually awarding it, had they known how great her greed truly is.

In fact lets see what else the bradybunch have to say about the lawsuit "Before the jury trial, the lawsuit resulted in two favorable settlements for the Grunow family. Before the complaint was even filed, the Grunow family obtained a settlement of its claims against McCray for negligently storing the gun. On December 14, 2000, the dealer who sold the gun, Hypoluxo Pawn Shop, also agreed to a substantial payment to settle the claims against it."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA the bastards are too lame to admit that those two settlements only totaled $575,000. Yet the greedyfuckstick of a lawyer wanted to get after Valor for $76 millon.

In fact the greedy widow Grunow has only been able to force people to pay $820,000 so far($300,000 from Mckray, $275,000 from the pawnshop, and $245,000 from the School District) yet the greedy widow wants $24 million from Valor, the $1.2 million she might have been able to squeeze out, had she not gone after the $24million from them, wasn't enough for her and her piece of shit lawyer!

[Wcross]

67. I have to agree with you dozer- GREED

Why not assign blame where it belongs- the punk kid and his parents? 100% liable in my book.

[MrBenchley]

70. Not even close to true...

"bush and ashcroft would be a better judge "
Bush and AshKKKroft are lying asswipes...but the RKBA crowd would rather have lies than fact.

Now go snivel about this to someone who gives a crap.

"A jury originally found Valor partially responsible for Grunow's death, but a judge reversed the verdict earlier this year."

[BullDozer]

72. 100% true

The jury found that Valor was not negligent in supplying (to a licensed gun dealer) the small, cheap pistol, nor did it sell an "unreasonably dangerous and defective product.


The widow Grunow got greedy and her greasy paw is stuck in the cookie jar.

[MrBenchley]

73. Not even close to true

And your continuing slander of this poor woman shows it.

[BullDozer]

75. No slander here

1)Law. Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
2)A false and malicious statement or report about someone.

Sorry nothing but facts on my side and that negates your bogus charge of slander.


Your pity for her is touching but the fact is that the actions taken by her or on her behalf by others have shown that she's being driven by wreckless and wanton greed.

[MrBenchley]

76. Funniest thing you've said yet...

You're so willing to pimp for the gun industry you'll publicly attack a widow...and then you piously claim you didn't.

And there's nothing even remotely resembling facts on your side.

[BullDozer]

78. feelings nothing more than feelings

Because you have no facts.

...and then you piously claim you didn't

No assmunch I said I didn't slander her. I really fukking wish that you could go out and buy the ability to produce an accurate quote as you've been misquoting me ever since you brought your stinking of raw sewage self into J/PS.

Tell your sob story to someone who will wallow in pity for the greedy with you.

She's greedy and it's clear to anyone who isn't blinded by their senseless rage against anything gun related.

[MrBenchley]

81. Gee, dozer...I'm the one with the facts

and you're the one screaming in rage because your sacred fetish is being profaned by the unbelievers.

Of course you're also trying to pretend that the sentence "A jury originally found Valor partially responsible for Grunow's death, but a judge reversed the verdict earlier this year." is radically different than the sentence "The jury verdict has since been invalidated through a directed verdict by the judge.".

If you want to slander a widow, go ahead...it tells volumes about the character of the sort of person who makes up the RKBA crowd.

[BullDozer]

82. Where are those?

If you want to slander a widow, go ahead...it tells volumes about the character of the sort of person who makes up the RKBA crowd.

Where's the slander?

Why put her on a pedestal because she's a widow? There are plenty of widows in the world, hell I date a couple of them from time to time and none of them expect any special treatment because their husbands died. Let alone get lawyered up and go after $76 million.

She's greedy, it's been shown, and any intelligent and honest person would agree.

Now why don't you tell us EXACTLY]/b] what Valor did that would warrant them paying out $1.2millon, $24million, or $76millon?

Especially when those that the jury decided (yet were not involved in the lawsuit) were 9 and 10 times more responsible only had to pay, by Pam Grunows choice, $245,000 and $300,00 respectivly.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[BullDozer]

92. The facts are all here

Pam Grunow turned down an offer of $200,000(from Valor) in March 2002 to settle her lawsuit without going to trial.

The settlement offer was rejected because it didn't even cover the expenses to that point in preparing for the lawsuit, Larson said. During the trial in October, Montgomery told the jury he was seeking a jury verdict of $75 million.

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:5EuMGb4baYQJ:www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/news/grunow24.html+grunow+%24200,000+settlement&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

That's rich she settles with;

Person the gun was stolen from for $300,000
The School Board for $245,000
The pawn shop that sold the gun for $275,00

and rejects a $200,000 settlement offer from the distributor for a chance to hit the jackpot for $75 million.

Tell us again how she's not greedy.

[CO Liberal]

9. 3 shootings renew calls for stronger Utah gun laws

Guns kept all those kids safe - NOT!!!

Incidentally, I originally found this story linked to the jointogether.org web site. Since many pro-gunners disregard anything they see there, I kept searching until I found it on a more mainstream source. - Wayne

* * * * * * * * * *

3 shootings renew calls for stronger Utah gun laws

By Doug Smeath
Deseret Morning News

Utah children have been victims of accidental shootings three times in the past week. This time a child died.

Gun-control advocates in the state are reacting by reiterating their desire for stronger legislation, while gun-rights activists say such shootings are rare and overplayed in the news media.

Marla Kennedy of the Gun Violence Prevention Center of Utah said while no official statistics are available, the group's unofficial count puts at 67 the number of children younger than 18 shot by other children since 1988. The actual number, she said, is probably much higher.

Kennedy said no official numbers are available because the state has no central way of keeping track. Numbers from the state Department of Health's Bureau of Vital records, however, put at 11 the number of children 14 and younger killed by firearms from 1988 through 2001.

<more>

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,525039179,00.html

[MrBenchley]

11. It's funny...

jointogether.org supports pretty much every liberal and progressive cause, doesn't it?

[gibbsvol]

12. more guns in my school..

Hey guys,
I posted here a couple of days ago about a student found with a gun in my school here in atlanta. Well, two days later, and another student was found to have a gun. So that's two kids with guns found at the same school in three days! I'm really worried. I posted this info on a more conservative board and got this response:
"I think it is more than pure co-incidence that after 130 years of Democrat Party rule in Georgia we are #1 in high school drop-outs and #50 in SAT scores.
The single biggest problem in this country today is children born out of wedlock to poor single parents. Every study ever done shows that they are more likely to drop-out of schools, abuse drugs and run afoul of the law. Do we blame the children or give up on them, of course not. It obviously is not their fault. What is the solution, I don't have the faintest idea, but I do know one thing for damn sure. Having 3rd generations of families on welfare and living in the projects sure hasn't solved the problem . Hopefully with the huge political re-alignment coming next year the system will be overhauled."

What are your responses to this? It seems that conservatives are ready to blame anything except the availability of guns.

[MrBenchley]

13. Exactly so...

What a terrifying situation.

"families on welfare and living in the projects"
More and more I suspect that "gun rights" is the newest code word for odl fashioned racism...

And yes, something desperately needs to be done about the easy availability of guns and ammunition. And letting assault rifles back on the street and shielding the industry from liability for its irresponsibility ain't it.

[Wcross]

38. Not exactly....

"More and more I suspect that "gun rights" is the newest code word for odl fashioned racism..."

"gun control" is the code word. Your actions would remove the only effective tool a minority may have to defend themsevles. Look at the success your crusade has had in Chicago and D.C.

Guns were available by mail order before 1968, in what way are guns more available now? Something has changed in our society, guns have been easily available for hundreds of years.

P.S.- And you had the nerve to attack my spelling the other day?
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[MrBenchley]

44. Yes, exactly.....

Exactly what David Duke and Ted Nugent and Larry Pratt are all peddling...and it shows.

[Wcross]

45. Bring back Jim Crow Mr Benchey?

I don't agree with you. I see no reason people of color should be denied the right to defend themselves. I support the right of ALL Americans to keep and bear arms. In what way does the pro-gun stance equate to racisim? I have never seen any proposal that would disarm minority's offered up by the gun-rights side. I have seen plenty from your side of the fence.
Gun control efforts have disarmed people of color, I cite Washington D.C. as a perfect example. You will notice that the effort did nothing to end criminal homocide in D.C.

[MrBenchley]

47. That's what "gun rights" is shorthand for

"I support the right of ALL Americans to keep and bear arms."
Hilariously, so does the KKK and David Duke....

[Wcross]

54. Seek help MrBenchley

"Hilariously, so does the KKK and David Duke"

I wouldn't know what they say, I don't waste my time trying to find out.

Do you really think that is a convincing arguement? They also gather at rally's and cite their 1st amendment right to do so- is that next on your list?

I sure am glad you are not representitive of the average democrat in regards to gun control, I would hate to see four more years of the shrub.

[MrBenchley]

57. Not me, cross....

"Do you really think that is a convincing arguement?"
In a word...yes. I think it's pretty convincing that:
--pretty much every racist that can be found anywhere, including, Trent Lott, Jesse Helms, Orrin Hatch, John AshKKKroft, Jeb Bush,, David Duke, Randy Weaver, Bo Gritz, John Trochman, William Pierce, etc., etc., etc., is spouting this gun rights horseshit;
--that NO racist can be found who isn't ALSO spouting "gun rights" crap;
--that racist crap is pretty common at gun shows;
--that many of the same arguments supporting gun control are the same ones that used to support segregration;
--that many on-line gun owners forums are rife with openly racist statements;
--that we've yet to find even a single example of anyone on those same forums objecting to those racist statements;
--that the NRA, the main source of this "gun rights" horseshit is headed by a number of blatant racists;
--that the GOA, the second largest "gun rights group," is headed by Larry Pratt, a guy so racist even Pat Buchanan had to bail on him;
--that there's no sign that members of either group is at all troubled by the open racism;
--that pretty much every group anyone can think of opposed ot racism ended up on the NRA's enemies list;
and
--that pretty much everybody publicly opposed to racial bigotry in public is also in favor of gun control.

If you want to pretend that's just coincidence, you can do so...but it sure isn't very convincing that it's all coincidence.

[Wcross]

68. Racisim is not the issue Benchey

The issue is gun control. Why would a gun rights group even consider a position on racisim? Why would it even be debated among members? I belong to A.O.P.A, (airplane owners and pilots assc)- they don't have a position on racisim. I also belong to the investors allience- another group with no position on racisim.

If you were a black man and took issue with racist pro-gun groups I would listen. The fact that you are using racism to enhance your position on gun control makes your arguement laughable. There are pro-gun black men on this board that see things a bit differently. You have NO moral authority on this issue.

Lets stick to debating gun control and save racisim for the designated forum on DU.

[MrBenchley]

71. The hell it's not....

"Why would a gun rights group even consider a position on racisim?"
Larry Pratt practices it....so does Ted Nugent. They just happen to be the leadership of the two largest gun rights groups...with nary a murmur of audible discontent frrom their membership.

"I belong to A.O.P.A, (airplane owners and pilots assc)- they don't have a position on racisim."
Gee, don't see much hate literature handed out at air shows. Nor do we find only racists claiming that airplanes can fly. I also find it hard to believe that any of the directors of the A.O.P.A. rants publicly about black people having bones in their noses.

"If you were a black man"
What makes you think i'm not?

"The fact that you are using racism to enhance your position on gun control makes your arguement laughable."
No, what's laughable is that you think that the racist nature of the gun rights crowd is deniable...or that it isn't its most salient feature.

And I for one plan to keep pointing it out...especially since it was just the other day one of you "enthusaists" linked to a website with lots of openly racist bits of rubbish.

"sig454 Posted: Nov 7 2003, 11:45 PM
Well, Negros kill more Americans every uear than the Total of Americans killed by Muslim in the last 10 years.
Every day PRO-DEATH libers kill more American babies than all ther Americans every killed by Muslims.
So, WTF, why the big deal about some towel heads ??? "

http://www.glocksunlocked.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=941&hl=racist

"sig454 Posted: Nov 7 2003, 11:58 PM
Wisconsin is the safest state in America because it has the lowest population of negros in America.
period.
no big mystery "

http://www.glocksunlocked.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=862&hl=negros

"Volponi Posted: Nov 9 2003, 02:04 AM
"Word up, dat guy sho do be havin one damn fine looking booty. I be wundrin if he be OK wit havin me pump muh ma fuckin junk all da way up in his manhole. Brace yourself foo', nahh dime sane? Be undastandin dis negroid-american languag, foo' "

http://www.glocksunlocked.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=968&hl=blacks

[Wcross]

79. Your right MrBenchley- I now support new gun laws

NOT!

Can we discuss gun control on its own merits? I do not belong to any gun-rights group so it doesn't fall on me to defend the leadership. I do believe in the right to keep and bear arms, I find your accusations to be a real weak reason to change my position on the issue.

[MrBenchley]

87. Gee, cross, weren't you bragging about your GOA membership

last month? As I recall, you were saying you didn't care about Larry Pratt's racist gibberish as long as he told the lies you wanted to hear about your sacred fetish object.

"I find your accusations to be a real weak reason"
Suit yourself. But then don't bitch when I point out what scummy thugs peddle that rubbish on the national stage.

[CO Liberal]

15. Interesting.......

Doesn't that moron realize that that increase in the dropout rate and the fall in SAT scores coincided with the rise of the GOP??

As in perhaps there are dumber voters out there????

:-)

[MrBenchley]

19. Not to mention...

that even when the Dixiecrats ruled Georgia there was rarely a liberal idea spoken aloud in the state...

[MrBenchley]

14. Statewide Alert Issued After Mask, Gun Found (FL)

"A statewide alert to law enforcement agencies in Florida was issued after a routine traffic stop in Titusville, Fla., uncovered several suspicious items inside the vehicle, according to Local 6 News.
During the stop, the officer discovered that the driver, Johntel Duwayne Bolden, 26, of New Smyrna Beach, was a convicted felon.
Little then searched the vehicle and found a semi-automatic handgun, a black ski mask, a black jacket, and $1,800 in cash. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031121/lo_wkmg/1887534

And thanks to the corrupt gun industry and GOP pieces of shit like Jebbo Bush, this guy could have waltzed into any gun show in Florida and bought all the guns he wanted without a background check.
What else are those two bunches of scumbags up to in Florida? Well, they just filed a bill to make shooting ranges immune from liability for the environmental damage they cause, and another to keep cops from checking on ALL firearm purchases.

[slackmaster]

16. MrBenchley reminds me of something that happened in Botswana

Before the official end of apartheid in South Africa, bureau of the Botswanan government issued an edict that in all television and radio news broadcasts the nation of South Africa would always be referred to as "racist South Africa". A columnist pointed out the absurdity of the edict, noting that he had heard a weather man on Botswanan TV saying "A cold front is moving in from racist South Africa."

MrB's consistent use of the word "corrupt" in reference to the gun industry sounds just as ridiculous.

[MrBenchley]

17. Gee, slack...

Tell us again how right wing pieces of shit have a right to troll on any forum where someone disagrees with them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=22570&mesg_id=22723&page=

[Spoonman]

27. Gee Slack

No need to write it again, your old post is just as valid today as the day you wrote it.

We should all thank Mr.B for the reminder!

[MrBenchley]

28. Gee, spoon....

I'm always happy to remind the board what desperate and dishonest tactics the RKBA crowd finds it necessary to sink to....and what piffle passes for RKBA "logic": "Bad man profane sacred fetish object--must troll!"

[Spoonman]

29. Gee Mr.B

Tell it to someone stupid enough to believe it, or someone who gives a shit.

[MrBenchley]

31. Gee, spoon...

Next ask me where I'm likely to find REALLY stupid people like Ted Nugent and Larry Pratt...

Or people who don't give a shit about anything but their neurotic gun fetish.....

[Wcross]

40. Throw enough crap against the wall.......

Some might stick!

[MrBenchley]

41. And you'll end up with the National Rifle Association

[Wcross]

39. Lying again mrbenchley?

And thanks to the corrupt gun industry and GOP pieces of shit like Jebbo Bush, this guy could have waltzed into any gun show in Florida and bought all the guns he wanted without a background check.

You know that this is a lie. The Bradey bill requires all FFL holders to run a check on all firearms they sell. The majority of firearms sellers at a gun show are dealers. Yes, there are private sales at gunshows but they are few and far between. You know this yet you spout these falsehoods. Shame on you.

[MrBenchley]

42. Yes, you are, cross...

It's called the gun show loophole.

And shame on you.

[Wcross]

46. Shame,Shame,Shame.

You call it the gun show loophole...... I call it private sales. You can't come right out and say you want to ban private sales now can you? Shame on you.

You claim mass neurosis among gun owners yet you have no medical training. Thats practicing without a license- Shame on you!

You claim the belief in gun rights makes one racist, yet your efforts are an attempt to disarm people of color. Shame on you.

[MrBenchley]

48. Yes, you are shameful...

And it shows in every one of your posts.

[Wcross]

53. Shameless

No Benchy,
I am shameless in my defense of all law abiding Americans to have the right to keep and bear arms. You can accuse me of racisim, you can accuse me of mental health problems, you can accuse me of anything you wish.

Your lack of a credible arguement is no reason to post grade school rubish.

[MrBenchley]

59. Who the hell are you trying to kid, cross?

What you're defending here is people with criminal records going into Florida gun shows and buying guns without a background check.

And for that you ought to be thoroughly ashamed.

Now post your "grade school rubish" to someone dumb or dishonest enough to fall about it. Try the gun show...there's plenty of idiots and criminals there.

[Wcross]

66. You ASSume he obtained the firearm from a gunshow

The story said nothing about where the scumbag got his gun. You know that less than 3% of crime guns come from gun shows. I disagree on principle with more gun laws. You have never expressed your concern with the lack of enforcement the current laws enjoy.

Why aren't you pushing for prosecuting those that tried to obtain firearms and were denied by a background check?

How would you know what happens at a gun show- you have never went to one- another ASSumption? BWAAAAAAAAA

[MrBenchley]

74. Not even close to true, cross

"The story said nothing about where the scumbag got his gun."
And I said that he could have walked into any gun show in Florida and gotten one thanks to the Republican party and the corrupt gun industry...which is 100% true.

"You know that less than 3% of crime guns come from gun shows"
No, I know that 100% of RKBA enthusiasts peddle that lie.

"How would you know what happens at a gun show- you have never went to one- another ASSumption?"
Yeah, that's another one of your ASSumptions, cross. You seem to specialize in either misinformation or arrogant and unfounded assumption.

[slackmaster]

83. OK, then your statement about gun shows was a red herring

Thanks for the clarification.

[MrBenchley]

88. Not even close to true, slack....

But thanks for weighing in with your usual mindless foolishness...

Slackmaster (#32): "The presence of a few idiots in Nazi uniforms need not spoil a family outing."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=22105

[MrBenchley]

18. Shooting Injures 1 Person Friday Morning (MO)

"A person is in serious condition after a shooting early Friday, KMBC reported.
Police were called to 10th Street and Brooklyn just after 1 a.m. Investigators have not released details about the shooting -- only that the shooter has not been arrested. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031121/lo_kmbc/1887755

[MrBenchley]

20. Police battling shooting spree (CA)

"A rash of daytime drug- and vengeance-fueled shootings in East Palo Alto since early October has left 10 people injured and one man dead.
"We have a couple little wars going on,'' East Palo Alto Police Chief Wes Bowling said Thursday.
By police count, there have been 14 shootings since the beginning of October, including some where homes were hit, but not people. Four shooting victims were 20 or younger. Tomas Lozano, 25, of East Palo Alto was the crime spate's sole fatality. He was shot several times on Cooley Avenue on Oct. 20 and died from his wounds."

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/7316765.htm

[MrBenchley]

21. Producer Phil Spector Charged With Murder

"ALHAMBRA, Calif. - Record producer Phil Spector, the 1960s recording-studio wizard who created pop music's Wall of Sound, was charged Thursday with murder in the shooting death of a woman at his home last February.
But there apparently was a dark side to Spector's genius, with stories of drunken rages, violence against a former wife, and a penchant for brandishing firearms.
Spector's last major album was a 1980s collaboration with the Ramones, "End of the Century." During the session, the late bassist Dee Dee Ramone said Spector pulled a gun on the band. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=529&ncid=529&e=2&u=/ap/20031120/ap_en_ot/spector_killing

Apropos of nothing but absurdist spectacle, here's Spector's Humvee stretch limo...

[MrBenchley]

23. Video Store Shooting Injures 1 (TX)

"Houston police investigated a shooting Thursday morning at the DT 24-Hour Video store off of the Gulf Freeway at Hollock.
Police received a call at 6:56 a.m. Thursday morning regarding a shooting at a store in southeast Houston. They were unable to say if the incident occurred inside or outside the business.
Officials reported that Curtis Green Jr., 33, was transported to Ben Taub Hospital with a gunshot wound."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031120/lo_kprc/1886763

[MrBenchley]

24. Trooper Shot Trying To Stop Albertsons Robbery (LA)

"An off-duty state trooper was injured Friday when he walked into a Baton Rouge grocery store and interrupted a robbery in progress.
The trooper and one of the suspects was wounded in the ensuing exchange of gunfire. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031121/lo_wdsu/1888460

[MrBenchley]

25. Officer Shot After Stopping Driver for Running Red Light (DC)

"(Washington) - A District police officer was shot in the hand early Friday morning after he stopped a man for running a red light in Northwest.
Moments earlier the suspected gunman shot two men in an alley. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=404&ncid=404&e=2&u=/wjla/20031121/lo_wjla/officershotafterstoppingdriverforrunningredlight

[drumz4hire]

52. And this...

in a city with the most strict gun-control laws
in the nation....how could this be?

[MrBenchley]

62. Easy...

We've got scum in a bunch of nearby states with really really crappy gun control laws funneling guns into the cities...and the GOP and the corrupt gun industry keeping Senator Schumer's anti-gun running bill bottled up in committee...

Just like the anti gun-running bill in the last Congress was bottled up in committee by the same extremists...

[drumz4hire]

69. What's this gun-running bill you speak of?

I thought gun running was already illegal?

[MrBenchley]

77. Try learning something about the issue

[slackmaster]

84. The only anti-gunrunning bill in Congress is H.R.221

"Latest Major Action: 3/6/2003 Referred to House subcommittee. Status: Referred to the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security."

See http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:h.r.00221: - You must include the colon at the end of the link.

[MrBenchley]

26. Girl, 13, Shot While Apparently Skipping School (TX)

"A 13-year-old girl was in critical condition Friday after she was shot twice at a northwest Houston apartment.
Police said Amanda Martinez skipped school Thursday and invited friends to her family's apartment in the 4200 block of West 34th Street around 3 p.m. One of them was a 15-year-old boy who had a gun, according to authorities.
Police believe that Martinez was accidentally shot when the boy showed off the gun.
She was hit in the head and the foot, and taken to Memorial Hermann Hospital for treatment. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031121/lo_kprc/1887922

[MrBenchley]

30. Police Search For Gunmen In Double Shooting (FL)

"Police are searching for two men involved in a double shooting Friday morning.
It happened around 6 a.m. at the Plaza del Fuente Apartments near the Florida Mall, WESH NewsChannel 2 reported.
An apartment resident called 911 when one of the female victims ran by screaming for help. The other victim was found in a ditch and died later at a hospital. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031121/lo_wesh/1888138

[MrBenchley]

32. Man Wanted In Connection With Metro Murder Turns Himself In (OK)

"A man wanted in connection with an Oklahoma City murder turned himself into police on Friday.
Police believe Davis was part of a group that killed Jerry Lynn McQuin Jr. Tuesday night at a home in the 700 block of Northeast 81st Street.
Officers said the group purposely took McQuin out of the house and shot him before leaving in a black sport utility vehicle. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=299&ncid=299&e=1&u=/ibsys/20031121/lo_koco/1888305

[MrBenchley]

33. Man Wanted In Connection With Metro Murder Turns Himself In (OK)

"A man wanted in connection with an Oklahoma City murder turned himself into police on Friday.
Police believe Davis was part of a group that killed Jerry Lynn McQuin Jr. Tuesday night at a home in the 700 block of Northeast 81st Street.
Officers said the group purposely took McQuin out of the house and shot him before leaving in a black sport utility vehicle. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=299&ncid=299&e=1&u=/ibsys/20031121/lo_koco/1888305

[MrBenchley]

34. Boy Brought Gun to School, Police Say (WI)

"According to De Pere police, a 13-year-old brought a handgun to West De Pere Middle School on Friday morning. The other boy had the gun in his locker.
The investigation started that morning when students started telling school officials they heard rumors about a gun at the school. Police and school officials say they acted quickly to get to the subject of the rumors.
They found a Rugar 9mm handgun in a locker. It wasn't loaded but there was a loaded ammunition clip in the locker."

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=1536071

[DocSavage]

80. Here is some news

Benelli With A Twist


The Italian shotgun giant enters the centerfire rifle market with a unique autoloading sporter.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/long_guns/benelli_1027/

[slackmaster]

85. A bit pricey but maybe worth it if you want multiple calibers

Thanks for the link, Doc!