GUNS IN THE NEWS--November 24, 2003

[MrBenchley]

As CO Liberal sez:
Please try to adhere to the following guidelines, in order that we can have an orderly discussion of gun-related news topics:
1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current for the Monday thread, stories should have been originally posted to the 'Net on Saturday, Sunday, or Monday. (This allows for the fact than many people are off-line over the weekend, allowing the Monday thread to be a weekend summary.) On all other days of the week, stories should have been originally within the previous 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board.
2 - Both pro-gun and anti-gun stories are welcome in this thread, as well as gun-related editorials, as long as they're current. Please do not post links to stories or articles from a few years back that support your position.
3 - Bear in mind that any links to extremely right-wing sites (such as Newsmax, CNS, or the Washington Times) or intentionally pro-gun or pro-control sites (such as the NRA's or Handgun Control, Inc.) are not considered reliable sources by many DU-ers. If at all possible, try to find a link from a more mainstream source, such as a general-circulation newspaper or magazine site.
4 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People", or anything else that changes the meaning of the story.
5 - If it's not clear from the title where the story occurred, add the city, state, or country in parentheses after the title.
6 - Comment on a story by replying to that story.
7 - Please direct your comments to the story, rather than attacking the person posting the story or any person responding to the story. In accordance with DU rules, any messages that appear to be personal attacks against another DU-er will be reported to the moderators.

[beevul]

1. Andrews man aims for safety

"ANDREWS — W.D. Brannan is a straight shooter.
At age 78, W.D. Brannan is teaching people how to be safe with concealed weapons.
He started instructing people from his home in Andrews in 1996 and has had more than 250 students.
“I’ve shot competitively for 30 to 35 years. I knew how to teach a person how to shoot accurately. … I thought I might as well get into it and make a little bit of money.
Students are asked to bring guns and ammo. Brannan makes his own because he shoots more than 1,000 rounds a month.
At the end of the course, Brannan gives students a 50-question test.
Brannan has his own shooting range.
“It’s on my cousin’s place, but I have total control of it,” he said, adding that it’s state certified.
Brannan said he reviews the law — what they can do, what they should do.
“They’ve (students) been thoroughly checked by the state. It’s known they wouldn’t harm anyone unless someone harmed their friends or family,” he said."


http://www.oaoa.com/news/nw112303f.htm

[MrBenchley]

2. Guard shot at grocery (CO)

"Denver police hope that surveillance footage of a brazen robbery attempt will help identify a gunman who seriously wounded a security guard at a 24-hour supermarket early Sunday.
The robber escaped without any money, leaving 52-year-old Karim Alsubhi sprawled on the floor behind the counter. Alsubhi, shot once in the upper torso, was in serious condition in the intensive care unit of a local hospital Sunday night."

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_2452294,00.html

[beevul]

3. Gun policy gets update by Justice

"WASHINGTON — The Justice Department has ordered the FBI to increase scrutiny of suspected terrorists who attempt to purchase guns after discovering that a dozen individuals on the government's main terrorist-watch list have bought firearms in the past eight months, according to officials and documents.


Under the new rules, the FBI will have as long as three days to run additional checks on prospective gun purchasers listed on the Violent Gang and Terrorist Organizations File, a database of more than 10,000 names that includes al-Qaida operatives and other militants, according to a memo this week from Acting Deputy Attorney General Robert McCallum Jr.

McCallum also indicated in the memo to FBI Director Robert Mueller that only one prospective gun purchaser included on the terrorist list had been blocked from buying weapons since March.



http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001798408_terror22.html

[MrBenchley]

4. NN woman is slain in Wal-Mart's parking lot (VA)

Another family made safer by guns...

"NEWPORT NEWS -- A Newport News police negotiator, talking to a man on his cell phone, was able to persuade him to surrender in Delaware five hours after the man allegedly shot his former wife to death Sunday afternoon in the Newport News Wal-Mart parking lot.
A 4-year-old boy - the son of the man, Michael DeWayne Jackson Sr., and his former wife, Jamila Chons Reaves - was with his father and was "in fine condition," police spokesman Harold Eley said. Police earlier had issued an Amber Alert for the boy because they were concerned about his safety after Reaves was killed and Jackson and their son disappeared.
About 2 p.m. Sunday, police received a call about a shooting at Wal-Mart. Reaves, 26, of the 100 block of Shady Terrace in Newport News, had been shot once - between her shoulder blades and her head - and had died at the scene."

http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-15811sy0nov24,0,6196712.story?coll=dp-aol-yahoo-nws-hed

[Stilgar]

5. Texas Police Say Eizember Was Shot Four Times

Another family made safe by guns.


Lufkin, TX - The search for accused double murderer Scott Eizember is over. Police in Lufkin, Texas say Eizember is hospitalized in stable condition after being shot four times by a man he allegedly kidnapped Sunday.
(snip)

O'Keefe says it's believed that Eizember took the woman's vehicle to Fort Smith, Arkansas, where he then kidnapped a doctor and his wife at gunpoint. They have been identified as Dr. Samuel Peebles and his wife, Suzanne, of Nashville, Arkansas.

Eizember forced them to travel south, where, near Lufkin, Texas, Dr. Peebles was able to retrieve a handgun that he had concealed in the minivan and shot Eizember four times in the chest area.

http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/1103/111537.html

[hijinks]

8. those people should have just gave him what he wanted

"Lufkin, TX - There is new information about the events that led to the capture of double murder supsect Scott Eizember. Eizember is in a Texas hospital recovering from four gunshot wounds that came from a gun concealed by one of his alleged kidnapping victims. "

http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/1103/111537.html

[Stilgar]

9. thanks hijinks

forgot to post the link, fixed now.

[MrBenchley]

6. 3-11 Boyz Related Suicide (NV)

"Police say that 18-year-old Justin Swisher told his parents that he was in a fight with the 3-11 Boyz before shooting and killing himself over the weekend. Eyewitness News reporter has learned this wasn't the first time the teen had been involved in a fight with the suspected gang.
In the infamous fight tape confiscated from one of the alleged 3-11 Boyz homes, 18-year-old Justin Swisher was identified as one of the teens. In the video clip, he is seen on the right, agreeing to engage in a fight with another teen while the camera was rolling. On-lookers didn't break up the fight until Swisher is clearly hurt.
Justin Swisher was a student at Centennial High School until he dropped out in March of this year. The 3-11 Boyz gang became known after 9 teens were charged with the attempted murder of Cimmeron Memorial High School student, Stephen Tanner Hansen. The teens' attorneys are challenging the charges. The trial is set for May 2004."

http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1531283&nav=168YJGy4

[MrBenchley]

7. Indy Murder Suspect Allegedly Shoots Officer

"A police officer in southeast Indiana was injured Saturday evening in a shootout with a suspect.
The shootout happened at about 6:30 p.m. near the intersection of U.S. Route 50 and state Route 48 in Aurora, Ind., Cincinnati TV station WLWT reported.
According to the Indiana State Police, Aurora police officer Josh Daugherty was driving east on U.S. 50 when he spotted a westbound vehicle matching the description of a vehicle driven by Tracy Thomas Jr., who was wanted in connection with a murder investigation in Indianapolis.
When Daugherty turned around to pursue the vehicle, Thomas allegedly fired at Daugherty's car several times. One of the shots struck the officer's left hip, police said."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031124/lo_wrtv/1890030

[Turbineguy]

10. I'm not sure this qualifiies but

I wrote it to another BBS I belong to. There are a few serious freepers on there and changing their minds is hopeless but none the less, one must endevor to persevere.

This was in response to the Big Shitlist put out by the NRA. I tried the link I had, but the site has been redesigned. These are all the dangerous people, like Pediatricians and such. (OK, Al-Qeada No. 2, Sahwiri is a pediatrician, but he's not mentioned so he must be OK)

The post is edited slightly

"OK, there's about 6 million people in the NRA. That's a powerful force. A powerful force that could be used for good. If Alcoholics Anonymous suggested that the way to cut down on alcohol related car crashes was to build more liquor stores, what would that be? Notice all the health related groups on the list.

It seems to me that the NRA is precisely in the right position to advocate a sane gun policy for this country. Here you have people who know about guns, who are mature, responsible citizens. The NRA (as a non governmental entity with a wide socio-economic cross section of the American population in the membership) is ideally situated to be the threshold for gun ownership. This would fit in with the Framers views on controlling the power of the government.

Because that's what all the Amendments are about, controlling the power of the government. The First Amendment was not put there to assist pornographers. And contrary to what Mr. Ashcroft may think, the Fourth Amendment was not put there to help criminals.

Where are you guys?

I think it safe to say that NRA members are not the ones going around shooting people. I'm not worried about NRA members shooting me. I worry about some drunken idiot who is playing with his gun and can't tell (even when he's sober) if it's loaded. Guns are inherently dangerous and just like automobiles and (Nuclear)plants, should not be operated be by idiots or small children.

If Gore had gotten the Whitehouse, there can be no certainty that he would have "taken away" the guns (after all, during the Clinton Administration, we did still have the Balance of Powers Doctrine in effect). Just as there can be no certainty that Israeli Intelligence would not have warned us about the impending 911 attacks had the Dems been in charge. (Remember, they knew in advance about the Beirut Marine Barracks attack but said nothing.)

If the NRA was responsible for Bush getting the Whitehouse, how about those patriotic 6 million members stepping up to the plate and donating 1 million a piece to offset the portion of the National Debt the Bush Administration has created? (Not to mention the other issues!) Or would such a suggestion be considered unpatriotic? If so, I withdraw it, and send it to my Grandkids (if I ever have any)."

[Turbineguy]

11. I followed that post with this little (mostly true) story

Hey! What prompted this thread?

OK, I'll tell you. Last Thursday I had to take my Son to the Madigan Army Medical Center, "Nucular" Medicine Dept. at Fort Lewis for a bone scan (if you have to go there, remember to allow an extra hour to go through the motions of security!). It seems he got a stress fracture in one of his shins during his recent USMC basic training. This is quite common and no cause for panic.

While I was sitting in the waiting room I started reading the NRA publication "American Hunter" (I am not a NRA member, and rely on the popular press for my info. You members please correct me if needs be). I guess they changed the name from "American Rifleman" while I wasn't looking, so as to not associate themselves with rifle toting dope dealers (although I recall there was a loosely organized group in Miami that preyed on tourists, that called themselves "Hunters", but I digress).

The mag gets the blood boiling by starting out with several anecdotes about how armed and free citizens were able to protect themselves, their property and damsels in distress from harm by the criminal element, dispatching several evil-doers to the next world in the process. I can only be thankful that in the critical moment these armed and free citizens remembered the combination to their gun safes, did not fumble with the keys to the trigger locks and were adroit at loading ammo into those 30 round clips. Whew, a couple of tense moments!

I realize what I terrible risk I took, leaving my bed that morning! And to think that I took my kid to Hooters for lunch. Talk about a security breach! It's amazing I still live! I must have some survival skills, I wasn't even aware of! OK, I guess I'm pretty hot shit when it comes to cheating death. I then look around at the other people in the waiting room and wonder if I am at risk for not being armed. I spot a particularly dangerous looking (possibly Pakistani, I would say) Physician, but he seems not interested in committing some act of terror against the rest of us. Other persons who could be carrying bombs under their white coats come over to confer with an Army Colonel.

Then we get a long diatribe by the President of the NRA on how Democrats want to keep you from using bazooka's to hunt wild turkeys . The article is also filled with bill numbers and exhortations to threaten your Representative or Senator into remembering if they do what's good for the nation, they will be looking for work along with the other 3 million schmucks who are not in line to benefit from the Bush Regime largesse.

All this, while a TV set is blaring something about "Do we have to invoke the 25th Amendment to get somebody who's not crazy in there!?" Could this guy be talking about Our Great President?

Suddenly my Crap Detector Alarm (this is standard equipment carried by all skeptics) is beeping so loud that I am amazed nobody else seems to hear it. Maybe they are all reading the same magazine and theirs are drowning mine out!

(BTW, some nice glossy adds for collector quality weaponry.)

My Son's bone scan was analyzed by 3 excellent and kind Physicians who explained the nature of the problem and answered all our questions and I am sure everything will turn out fine.

[Stilgar]

14. no not the right topic

This is gun related news, not about what you read in a magazine. Start your own topic and read the news posting guidlines at the top of this page.

The NRA has 4 magazines, American Rifleman, American Hunter, America's First freedom, and Womans Outlook.

Your post is long changes topics quite quickly. I am at a loss as to the point of your post but here I go.

The members of the NRA should pay for protections after 9/11 since Bush is the one in office? So if Gore were in office, members of DU should pay?

You are surprised that a pro-gun magazine from a pro-gun group has stories of people defending themselves? That makes your blood boil?

You feel no need to carry a weapon. Good for you. Hey, neither do I. If you believe that no one will harm you if you don't harm them, I would like to live in that fantacy. Other people that live or work in high crime areas actually have bad stuff happen to them for no reason. To rely on yourself for protection instead of someone else is not being paranoid.

An article telling you about bills in congress that you need to be aware of and what you should do about it is completely normal. You see, you need to tell your Rep how you as the person they are representing feels.

[Turbineguy]

17. OK, fair enough

I do not think the NRA Members should pay for post 9/11 protections. The election was before then anyway. It is obviously rediculous to expect NRA Members to donate 1 million each to offset GWB's adventures in economic policy.

The magazine did not make my blood boil but I think the anecdotes are designed to provoke a basic emotional response of fear.

I do not carry a weapon at all times. I do own 2 guns. They have trigger locks and the ammo is in a safe. I have no problem with those who own guns perse. Fortunately, my life is such that I never venture in high crime areas.

But consider this.

There are 6 million Members of the NRA. But there have to be at least 150 million potential gun customers out there in the U.S. If the product liability rules for gun makers were the same as for Boeing Airplanes, the price of a gun would rise by about $50,000.00.

So my question would be this: does the NRA exist to protect gun ownership as a Second Amendment Right or does it serve to protect those who make and sell guns as a commodity? Well, I say both. But I think the Second Amendment is something of a red herring.

[Stilgar]

19. I agree with you here in part

The articles are made to make you fear a little. But, it is reminding you of what actually happened to real people. Meaning this could really have been you.

Would you fault the Brady center or Million Moms from posting articles of people that have died from guns?

The only differece between the two types is NRA has a potental victim as the writer and BC or MM has a close relative as the writer.

The question of the NRA, I believe they want to protect gun makers and sellers as much as possible. They tend to give less protection the less money you have. On the other hand, they do thier best to get you to learn and like guns. This is another arm of the NRA and ensures that the guns they protect are actually wanted by someone.

So to protection in courts/making of laws, I say commodity protection.

[LARED]

12. Town passes law requiring guns at home

GEUDA SPRINGS, KANSAS -- Residents of this tiny south-central Kansas community have passed an ordinance requiring most households to have guns and ammunition.

Non-complying residents would be fined $10 under the ordinance, passed 3-2 this month by City Council members who thought it would help protect the town of 210 people. The town does not have its own police force but is patrolled by county sheriff's officers.


Town passes law requiring guns at home

[MrBenchley]

15. Wow...

Crime is that bad in Geuda Springs?

You'd think the Topeka Capitol Journal would have something on this crime wave....

http://www.cjonline.com/

Don't see a thing there about "Bloodbath in Geuda Springs"...

[LARED]

18. Just think of it as

proactive crime prevention.

[MrBenchley]

20. Or Paranoid Loonies on Parade

What was the town in Utah that made the United Nations persona non grata and required guns?

[LARED]

25. Could be just

paraniod lonnies on parade. One way to get the paraniod lonnies to heel would be for the SC to correctly affirm the second amendment protects the individual right to bear arms.

[MrBenchley]

26. Hey, maybe if pResident Turd

gets a few more right wing whackos on the Supreme Court, you could get your wish....but until then you're stuck with that the Connstitution actually says and what the courts have affirmed..which is that the Second refers to a well-regulated militia, just as it says.

[LARED]

28. Now you're being funny

Although it's not surprising given the level of sophistry you employ.

but until then you're stuck with that the Connstitution actually says and what the courts have affirmed..which is that the Second refers to a well-regulated militia, just as it says.

Is still wishful thinking on your part as it is hardly a settled matter.

[MrBenchley]

29. I'm being funny and honest

But hey, keep on hoping the GOP can ram another dishonest piece of shit like Scalia on the court...and then maybe you'll get your wish....

[hansberrym]

32. Maybe someone like Laurence Tribe?

[MrBenchley]

35. Or David Duke

Which do you think this unnelected drunk is more likely to nominate....remember, the GOP is still trying to ram through that racist asswipe Pickering onto a lower court.

[hansberrym]

41. You can't dismiss L.Tribe as a racist

so how do you account for his views on the RKBA?

What about Michael Kinsley (another racist piece of s**t?)
I think not.

[MrBenchley]

44. Are you REALLY trying to pretend

that this unelected drunk would put Tribe up for a Supreme Court vacancy...

Wow, you guys really ARE desperate.

As to whether he's a racist or not, I couldn't say. But his opinion is just his opinion...whereas the collective nature is backed up by history, the court decisions, the cowardly and dishonest actions of the gun lobby, and even the Madison quote that somebody else dredged up.

[hansberrym]

47. What history?

You have yet to cite a single source from the founding era that backs up your exclusively collective rights interpretation.

[MrBenchley]

49. Jeeze, hans....

the Madison quote one of your fellow gun nut provided does that quite adequately.

[hansberrym]

55. Only if you ignore the reference to "in person"

Or the meaning if the term "keep" in context, or "bearing arms".

But hey, if you can ignore all that, then you can convince yourself of just about anything.

[MrBenchley]

59. Not even close to true...

But be sure and keep on trying...it's providing some big laughs.

[hansberrym]

65. But then its easier to laugh then to come up with an argument

[MrBenchley]

68. Some "arguments" deserve only laughter in response

[hansberrym]

69. I see, when you don't have an explanation

you just insist that one it is not needed.

[LARED]

34. Maybe you can hope that some piece of crap like

Madison could get on the court.

The original proposed text of the second amendment.

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed, and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person.

Very interesting read.

http://www.jmu.edu/madison/madprobll.htm

[MrBenchley]

36. Hahahahahaha...

You really think that pResident Turd is going to nominate another James Madison? That's so hilarious.

"The original proposed text of the second amendment.
The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed, and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person."
Gee, that certainly says that the right Madison means is that of serving in the collective militia, not owning a gun.

[LARED]

38. In your dreams

Gee, that certainly says that the right Madison means is that of serving in the collective militia, not owning a gun.

You're such a kidder, not even you can believe that.

[MrBenchley]

39. You put the quote up...and now you don't like what it says?

Tough titty, pal.

[LARED]

40. I like what is say just fine.

It's not my fault you can't understand it.

[MrBenchley]

50. Gee, obviously I understand it

and you don't...

[LARED]

53. Not really

You have made it clear you really don't understand the issue.

You are just unaware of your ignorance.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LARED]

57. My ignorance is showing

Thanks for heads up.

I incorrectly assumed MrBenchly actually believed what he says.

Based on what you're telling me, it was an easy mistake on my part as I assumed dialectical materialism is nearly extinct.

It rare to run across such an anarchistic way of thinking in this modern day.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

62. Hans, when you have to resort to redbaiting

I know you're really getting desperate...

"He is still practicing the Dialectic as laid out by Marx/Lenin. "
Hahahahahahaha.....yes, those wily reds would often wait until somebody posted a quote by James Madison, and then point out what the quote acctually said.

[hansberrym]

66. Just calling them like I see em'

You still haven't answered why there would be an exclusively collective right to do a thing (bear arms) that was discussed as the action of an individual during the ratification debates. Or why the word "keep" would not refer to individuals.

[MrBenchley]

70. Hahahahahaha!

"why there would be an exclusively collective right to do a thing (bear arms) that was discussed as the action of an individual"
Actually the right in Madison's quote was the right not to participate in the collective activity.

But don't let pesky things like facts get in the way of this silliness, hans. Otherwise we'd have to notice that Madison's version was voted down in favor of the actual second amendment, which mentions no individual right whatsoever.

[hansberrym]

76. I have a right not to vote, but then voting is an individual action.

I do not have a right to prevent the the collective action of electing a representative; since that right is held collectively by all of the people, that decision must be made by the people collectively.

Since Madison and others proposed that there should be a right not to "bear arms" they must have understood the term "bear arms" to refer to the action of an individual. This is supported by the language used: "in person", no person, pay another to bear arms in his stead", etc.

[MrBenchley]

60. What I've made clear

is that your own Madsion quote supports my point of view, not yours.

[LARED]

64. I'm sure you believe that

My kids used to believe all sorts of things. After they developed better critical thinking skills they had an easier time sorting fact from fiction.

[hansberrym]

42. Just what do you think Madison meant when

he added the words "in person" ? Do you think he meant "in person" in the collective or individual sense?


Madison was a Virginain and was certainly aware of the act below
which is cited from Miller vs US.

Note that the militia is not a select militia and it includes all free male person between 18 and fifty years old.

Note that the Preamble of the 1785 act below expresses the same meaning as the first part of the Second Amendment: "The defense and safety of the commonwealth depend upon having its citizens properly armed and taught the knowledge of military duty." is similar to "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, ..."

Note that each individual was to purchase the arms himself and to
constantly "Keep" them ready to produced wwhenever called for by the commanding oficer.

Furthermore the other 2 states cited in Miller had simila militia acts, and the US (Federal) Militia act of 1792 followed the same patterns (Not select and the individual supplies arms)

(From Miller vs. US)
The General Assembly of Virginia, October, 1785 (12 Hening’s Statutes c. 1, p. 9 et seq.), declared: ‘The defense and safety of the commonwealth depend upon having its citizens properly armed and taught the knowledge of military duty.’ It further provided for organization and control of the Militia and directed that ‘All free male persons between the ages of eighteen and fifty years,’ with certain exceptions, ‘shall be inrolled or formed into companies.’ ‘There shall be a private muster of every company once in two months.’ Also that ‘Every officer and soldier shall appear at his respective muster-field on the day appointed, by eleven o’clock in the forenoon, armed, equipped, and accoutred, as follows: ... every non-commissioned officer and private with a good, clean musket carrying an ounce ball, and three feet eight inches long in the barrel, with a good bayonet and iron ramrod well fitted thereto, a cartridge box properly made, to contain and secure twenty cartridges fitted to his musket, a good knapsack and canteen, and moreover, each non-commissioned officer and private shall have at every muster one pound of good <307 U.S. 174, 182> powder, and four pounds of lead, including twenty blind cartridges; and each serjeant shall have a pair of moulds fit to cast balls for their respective companies, to be purchased by the commanding officer out of the monies arising on delinquencies. Provided, That the militia of the counties westward of the Blue Ridge, and the counties below adjoining thereto, shall not be obliged to be armed with muskets, but may have good rifles with proper accoutrements, in lieu thereof. And every of the said officers, non-commissioned officers, and privates, shall constantly keep the aforesaid arms, accoutrements, and ammunition, ready to be produced whenever called for by his commanding officer. If any private shall make it appear to the satisfaction of the court hereafter to be appointed for trying delinquencies under this act that he is so poor that he cannot purchase the arms herein required, such court shall cause them to be purchased out of the money arising from delinquents.’

[MrBenchley]

45. Who are you trying to kid, hans?

What can that individual do "in person?" "render military service"--a collective activity.

And I don't see a single word about an individual OWNING a gun in what Madison wrote.

[hansberrym]

48. Why does Madison use the words "in person" ?

In fact two other proposed amendments, in addition to Madison's draft, use the term "bearing arms" in a distictly individual nature.

Madison: “…no person scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person ”.

George Wyethe of the Virginia convention: “…that any person scrupulous of bearing arms ought to be exempted upon payment of an equivalent to employ another to bear arms in his stead.”

From the Rhode Island convention: (Nearly identical to Wyethe)
“…that any person scrupulous of bearing arms ought to be exempted upon payment of an equivalent to employ another to bear arms in his stead.”


Note that all three sources use the term “bearing arms” to indicate an individual’s action- as opposed to a collective or state action.


What do you think "keep" arms meant if not owning a gun, ammunition, and other equipment.


I quess "Keep" is yet another word that means its opposite in Benchley-speak. (See the citation in previous post from Miller vs. US)

[MrBenchley]

51. Why does he use the words "render military service"?

And all three of your examples mean military service by "bear arms". But thanks for playing "What's my RKBA fantasy."

[hansberrym]

54. That too easy

Because military service is one aspect of "bearing arms".

The general meaning of the term is to use or carry weapons in an offensive or defensive manner against another human being. That would include both military service and also self defence.

The problem for your side is that you have staked out an exclusive argument. You say it is ONLY collective and in NO part individual despite the evidence to the contrary.

The argument put forth by L.Tribe and others is that it is both an individual right to self defence AND the right to defend the state.
This interpretation does not have to explain away language used during the ratification debates and also fits with the earlier state
bills of rights such as PA which read "the right of the people to bear arms in defence of themselves and the state shall not be questioned "

This interpretation also fits with the well known statements of John Adams, Sam adams, Thomas Jefferson, etc.

[MrBenchley]

61. Hahahahaha...

"The problem for your side is that you have staked out an exclusive argument."
And the problem for your side is that your position is hooey...no matter how often you mention the high priest Lawrence Tribe.

"The argument put forth by L.Tribe and others"
Others include John AshKKKroft, Tom DeLay, Ted Nugent, Larry Pratt and Trent Lott...a sterling cast of characters, renowned for their integrity and devotion to principle....NOT.

[hansberrym]

72. that's a new twist on the ad hominem

I suppose if you can't attack the argument, or the man(in this case L.Tribe), attack someone else who makes similar arguments.

the ad hominem once removed?

[hansberrym]

43. Before you go calling Madison a "revisionist"

please look up the meaning of the word.

[MrBenchley]

46. Before you make up lies about what I have to say

perhaps you ought to read what Madison wrote.

[hansberrym]

52. If a thing can be accomplished in person, can it be a purely

collective endeavor? (no, duh!)


It is clear form reading the quote I supplied earlier that "bearing arms" was the action of an individual.

You might recall a lesson in grammar and usage that Iverson gave some time ago in which He/she used the example of "electing" a representative as a Collective action, and "voting" as an individual action. We collectively "elect" representatives, But we "vote" as individuals. (I have used this same example myself so I was glad to see Iverson employ it, only I wish he/she had taken the line of argument to its logical conclusion)

The usage of the term "bearing arms" during the ratification debates clearly demonstrates that the term was used to indicate an individual's actions. The term "keep" also supports an individual interpretation since each person was to "keep" a supply of arms as per the 1785 Virginia militia act cited in Miller vs. US.

The exclusively collective rights argument is not supported by the historical record or by the language of the amendment.

[MrBenchley]

63. What a silly question.....

If one person decides not to join a collective endeavor due tro personal scruples, does that make the endeavor any less collective?

If youu sit out the dance, the dance goes on without you.

"We collectively "elect" representatives, But we "vote" as individuals."
We keep and bear arms as a people through our well-regulated militia. But one serves in that militia as his own individual choice, abilities permitting.

[hansberrym]

67. Every once in a while you let your guard down and

speak the at least a partial truth.


(quoting Mr Benchley)
We keep and bear arms as a people through our well-regulated militia. But one serves in that militia as his own individual choice, abilities permitting.
(unquote)


Now that you have said that it is an individual's choice,
How can you deny that it is an individual's RIGHT?

[MrBenchley]

71. Have somebody explain to you the difference between

a "choice"

and

a "right".

I see no reason to play Mr. Dictionary.

[hansberrym]

73. If the Constitution protects an individual's choice to do a thing.

Wouldn't that mean that the individual has a right to do that thing?

[MrBenchley]

74. Too TOO funny...

So did Madison's version make it into the Constitution, hans?

And by the way, what was the individual to be allowed to choose in Madison's proposal? To abstain from the collective activity for reasons of his own conscience.

I have the right to open my yap and continue this absurd collective discussion of Madison's rejected proposal as long as I wish. Guess what I choose, hans?

[LARED]

75. Madison's rejected proposal ?

"snort"

[hansberrym]

77. Your argument is circular

you insist that "bearing arms" is an exclusively collective activity,
and then use that assertion as a conclusion. Where did you show that
"bearing arms" is a collective activity?


Also you have still not answered why they used phrases such as "...provided he pay another to bear arms in his stead..."

Unless the words "he", "another" and "his" refer to some collective entities you are SOL.

The activity that the individual was to perform was "to bear arms"
not to "take part in the collective act of bearing arms".

[LARED]

13. Children who hunt taught to respect guns

Children who hunt taught to respect guns

Gannett Wisconsin Newspapers
and Wausau Daily Herald
Thousands of north central Wisconsin youths headed into the woods this weekend carrying high-powered rifles and shotguns. But parents and firearms instructors say they've also armed them with a healthy respect for safety.

Allowing 12-year-olds to hunt during the nine-day deer season does not mean desensitizing them to the dangers of guns. It's quite the opposite, proponents say.

"In our classes we aren't teaching them how to hunt. We are teaching firearm safety," said David Gliniecki of Wisconsin Rapids, a volunteer hunter safety instructor since 1992. "What we're trying to teach them to do is have a systematic approach to firearms."
The classes in north central Wisconsin are well-attended, which shows not only that hunting is popular but that safety lessons are reaching a broad audience, said Stuart Smith, a state Department of Natural Resources warden in the Wisconsin Rapids office. Any first-time hunter born after 1973 must complete a hunter safety course to buy a license.

[MrBenchley]

16. Robber Shoots, Kills Owner Of Longwood Restaurant (FL)

"A restaurant owner in Longwood, Fla., was shot and killed during a robbery at Amici's Italian Kitchen & Pizzeria Saturday night, according to Local 6 News.
Jose Garibaldi Dantas, 34, was working at the restaurant on state Road 427, near 434 at about 7 p.m. when an employee took trash out the back door and was forced back inside by a masked gunman.
The gunman entered the restaurant and fired several shots, one of which hit Dantas, police said.
Dantas was taken to Orlando Regional South Seminole Hospital, where he died. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031124/lo_wkmg/1890195

[MrBenchley]

21. Police chase ends in shootout on Far Westside (IN)

"A birthday sleepover turned into a harrowing ordeal when a gun-wielding assailant burst into a Wayne Township home while trying to escape police early Sunday.
Frank and Christa Detzel were hosting five girls 5 to 8 years old when a man kicked in the front door about 7:45 a.m.
The man police have identified as the intruder, 43-year-old Eric Uhls, of Roachdale, reportedly began making demands for a ride. Frank Detzel quickly persuaded him to let Christa Detzel and the children leave.
When the door rose, sheriff's deputies were waiting outside, guns drawn.
Uhls quickly fired five shots from his .357-caliber Magnum, police said. Hendrickson said Detzel dived for cover, and the deputies fired back four times."

http://www.indystar.com/articles/2/095942-2082-009.html

[MrBenchley]

22. Bullet wounds KKK initiation participant (LA)

Celebrating gun rights in their own special way...

"JOHNSON CITY, Tenn. (AP) — A bullet fired in the air during a Ku Klux Klan initiation ceremony came down and struck a participant in the head, critically injuring him, authorities said.
Gregory Allen Freeman, 45, was charged with aggravated assault and reckless endangerment in the Saturday night incident that wounded Jeffery S. Murr, 24.
A bullet struck Murr on the top of the head and exited at the bottom of his skull, authorities said.
Freeman fled the ceremony but was arrested near his home, authorities said. He was released on $7,500 bail."

http://www.nola.com/newsflash/national/index.ssf?/base/national-13/106969944216800.xml

[MrBenchley]

23. Investigation continues in boy's shooting death (VA)

"SMITHFIELD -- With the arrest of Daniel Lee Pittman in Hampton Thursday night, Smithfield police have arrested all six identified suspects in the shooting death of 8-year-old Kyron Butler.
Smithfield police have described the Oct. 16 shooting that sent a random bullet into Butler's bedroom as a gunfight between two groups. The six suspects arrested and charged with second-degree murder were all on one side of that fight, but no one from the other side has been identified."

http://www.dailypress.com/news/yahoo/dp-kyronn21nov21.story

[MrBenchley]

24. 2 sought in driver's shooting (IN)

"The incident occurred at 6:45 p.m. Friday at a mini-mall at the southeast corner of Moller Road and 34th Street.
William M. Riley, 25, of Gary, had just gotten into his 1996 Pontiac Grand Am and was driving from the lot when a man ran alongside the car, opened a door and jumped into the passenger-side seat, said Indianapolis Police Department Det. Ken Martinez.
Witnesses then heard a popping sound and saw the gunman roll out of the car. The gunman got into another car that sped east on 34th Street.
Riley, who was shot in the head, died today at Wishard Memorial Hospital, police said."

http://www.indystar.com/articles/4/095365-2274-093.html

[MrBenchley]

27. Police: Man Shoots Wife In Front Of Child (MI)

"Police arrested a local man Monday after he allegedly fired shots at his wife in front of their 9-year-old daugther, Local 4 reported.
The two had reportedly been arguing in their home on Oregon Street when the 37-year-old woman attempted to leave, according to the station's reports. Police say that's when her 45-year-old husband grabbed a handgun and fired at least eight shots at the woman.
Police say the mother of four was somehow able to call for help after being shot."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031124/lo_wdiv/1891586

[MrBenchley]

30. Gunman Shoots Couple On Westside Porch (FL)

"A man and woman shot Sunday night by a masked intruder who appeared on the porch of their Westside home and told them to put their hands up.
A police report says that when the man said "You're joking," the suspect shot them.
The couple was taken to the Orange Park Medical Center, but their injuries were not believed to be life-threatening."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031124/lo_wjxt/1891519

[MrBenchley]

31. Man Shot In Front Of Wife, Child (CA)

"Sacramento police are looking for a gunman who shot a man in front of his wife and 3-year-old daughter.
Police said a family was selling clothing out of the back of a U-Haul truck when they were approached by the gunman, who tried to rob them. A scuffle broke out and a shot was fired, wounding the father in the cheek.
"The female was also injured. We're not sure how, if she was struck by a bullet or hit with a weapon or blunt object, but she did have a laceration to the temple of her head," Sacramento Police Department spokesman Bill Beerman said."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031124/lo_kcra/1891414

[MrBenchley]

33. 13-Year-Old Shot Several Times in the Back (DC)

" (Washington) - A 13-year-old boy is in stable condition after being shot several times in his back.
The shooting took place overnight in the 4,400 block of Pond Street in Northeast. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/wjla/20031124/lo_wjla/13yearoldshotseveraltimesintheback

Worth noting that GOP pinhead Orrin Hatch is trying to put more guns on the streets of DC..

[MrBenchley]

37. Man Shot Outside Modesto Nightclub (CA)

"Modesto police are looking for anyone who may have witnessed a deadly shooting outside a nightclub.
Adolfo Romero, 28, of Delhi, was found by a security guard bleeding from a gunshot wound. He was rushed to an area hospital where he died a short time later. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031124/lo_kcra/1891465