The same old routine. Too many guns.

[sharesunited]

Typical day. Yawn. Snoozers.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/08/13yearold-playing-with-gun-in-carson-dies-man-fatally-shot-in-maywood.html

[derby378]

1. The title of your OP is seriously misleading

This was a kid who was apparently too dense to realize that guns are not toys.

His father deserves some of the blame for leaving a loaded gun where his son could get to it without his supervision.

This was an avoidable tragedy. I should know, because something similar almost happened to a relative of mine.

[sharesunited]

2. Darwinian thinning of the herd, eh? Guns improving society once again?

[derby378]

3. Spare me

That boy didn't deserve to die. His father was too much of a dolt to have taught him better.

I've spoken my peace. Have a good morning.

[SteveM]

9. You are not only unbearably self-righteous...

you are seriously cruel. Do you enjoy that?

[sharesunited]

10. 2A gun worshippers are the self-righteous and cruel ones. That's the way I see it.

As for unbearable, let's just say uncompromising. You ought to feel a sting from it.

[SteveM]

11. That's what I figured. Your private pleasures are most important (nt)

[rrneck]

4. From the link in the OP

In the Carson case, the boy and a friend, also 13, were playing with video games when they discovered a locked closet, broke in and found the gun, said Sheriff's Deputy Aura Sierra

There always seems to be more to the story. I have a hard time forming an image of the 13 year old or the family dynamic that would make it seem a good idea to force his way into a secure location in the home. Was this tragedy a result of precocious mischief or was the 13 year old on track to be a member of a gang?

That's the value of posts like the OP. It raises questions and asks us to consider the reality on the ground surrounding the issue.

Your sarcasm is misplaced.

Edited due to lack of coffee.

[slackmaster]

5. I doubt that sharesunited read the whole story before posting about it

He probably saw the word "gun" and couldn't wait to tell us all about it.

[sharesunited]

6. You are correct to this extent. Gun and Dead Child. But at least he wasn't exploited for porn.

[rrneck]

7. Nevertheless,

it seems that others are giving a great more consideration to the reality on the ground surrounding than you are.

[sharesunited]

8. The reality is six feet under. There's your reality.

[rrneck]

12. Who is six feet under?

A child who found an unsecured weapon or an individual that needed one to defend themselves in an assault?

Impassioned pleas contribute nothing to a solution. They do, however, contribute to the caricature that liberals are all bleeding heart ninnies ensconced in safe upscale urban centers sipping lattes and scolding others who actually have to face the real world every day.

[sharesunited]

13. The real world is one in which guns are a scourge and more guns are the claimed solution.

If I can see that from my latte sipping perch, it must be a thousand times more obvious in Compton.

[rrneck]

14. Then I suggest you

get over there and save some lives.

The reality on the ground is that there is a disparity of force between one group of people and another group of people who would do them harm. That harm almost always happens when there is no help in the form of civil authority to offer assistance. Most people in the real world know this. That awareness prompts them to acquire means to defend themselves. The best means to do that comes in the form of firearms.

Of course we all know that firearms are dangerous and designed to be so. All too often innocent people get killed with them. These deaths are a tragedy and deserve all the compassion and effort you and I and everybody else on this board expends on the issue. But compassion does not offer a solution.

The advocation of a firearms ban, or a ban at some future date through the cessation of their manufacture, has always and will continue to result in the same reply from people in the real world. That reply is "Fuck you. If you can't save me when I get assaulted I'll do it myself". But you won't get that reply face to face. It will come in the form of the continued increase in gun sales and legislation to determine when and where guns can be carried. It will come in the form of support for politicians who write that legislation. It will come in the form of the political marginalization of those who advocate emotionally based utopian solutions that bear no resemblance to people's everyday experience.

[JonQ]

16. Swimming pools kill more children than guns

based on collected data.

I suppose you hold the same visceral hatred of them?

Also, we should avoid teaching children to swim because that will only encourage them to try it.

[fedupinhouston]

18. And if you got down from your moral high horse

put down the latte and learned a few things, you might realize your desires wouldn't do a thing to stop the misuse of firearms.

Do you have anything constructive to offer other than the fantastical approach of doing away with all firearms and somehow changing human nature so that nobody wants to harm another?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

22. Who claimed that more guns are the solution?

Everyone here seems to think that fewer guns in the hands of criminals is a great idea.

[sharesunited]

25. To achieve that desirable goal, you need to accept fewer guns generally.

Now THERE's a great idea!

Less ammo would be a big help too.

[fedupinhouston]

26. What desirable goal?

What is the goal you seek? Fewer guns in existence? Good luck with that.

I know you want to imagine that a law will somehow make this happen, but it will not. Guns, with minimal care, will outlast the original purchaser. That's a simple fact. Some of the very first firearms ever made are still quite serviceable as designed.

You cannot make them simply disappear.

Criminals aren't going to give up theirs either.

So tell us please, how would you achieve your goal? I am not saying it is desirable mind you, because I do not believe it is. Even if you COULD achieve it, all you would do is disarm the law abiding. The state, and the lawless, would still be armed.

We understand you dislike firearms. You're welcome to that opinion. However, setting aside the wanton violation of other's rights, your desire is a pure pipe dream.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

27. Life in prison for gun crimes would achieve it just as well.

[JonQ]

15. Sounds like too many video games

that's where they got the idea. We should ban them.

For the children of course.

[iverglas]

20. you are truly despicable

Police said Christian Madrigal and his friend had been playing video games at a home in the 21400 block of Orrick Avenue at about 2:40 p.m. The boys somehow got into a locked gun cabinet inside the home and got out a gun.

I dunno, can you tell? Is that a gangsta name? Was it the geography? I'm unfamiliar.

There had to be SOME reason why you read a story about two kids AT THE PRECISE AGE when kids are most likely to take risks and least likely to be able to assess the consequences of risk-taking, playing video games in a home WHERE THERE ARE GUNS that are obviously accessible to them (they accessed them), and your immediate thought was gangs! gangs! gangs!

I have theories, but I'd love to hear your thought process.

This is your brain on guns, indeed ...

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

23. Pot meet kettle.

[tortoise1956]

24. Kinda harsh there

You sure took a left run from what he put in the email. There was no accusation of being a gangbanger, just a valid question based on the story itself-a teenager breaks into a LOCKED closet, plays with guns, and someone gets killed.

Now, before you accuse me of being a child-hating psycho, let me say that I have some friends whose (ADD/ADHD/you name it) teenage son is out of control. He steals anything he thinks he can sell, shows them no respect, and comes and goes as he wishes. Unfortunately, society has crafted laws that prevent his parents from getting meaningful help or relief until he turns 18. It has gotten so bad that they finally ended up giving me all their firearms to hold for them until he moved out, because no place in the house can be made secure. Right or wrong, that is one of the first possibilities I saw when I read the story.

So, there it is. I don't hate children, I just profile them...

[rrneck]

29. Cha ching - and another Glock goes out the door. nt

[iverglas]

35. and another despicable

... hey, you can complete the sentence.

[rrneck]

39. What are you afraid of? nt

[Euromutt]

43. You put your finger on an interesting point

See, I know that when I was a kid, I loved to snoop around when left alone in the house. But what I did not do was leave evidence that I'd been snooping, and nothing forms more permanent evidence of unauthorized access than a broken lock. If I came upon a locked container, I'd see if I could find the key; if I could not, I'd leave it alone.

they discovered a locked closet, broke in and found the gun, said Sheriff's Deputy Aura Sierra.

I don't buy that sequence of events. You don't just happen to break into a locked closet which then happens to contain a gun; they were going after the gun.

I also have a problem with the LA Times' description of the discharge as "accidental." If some teenage kid breaks into a garage and steals a car to go joy-riding in it, and then kills himself when he rams the car into a tree, I don't call it an accident.

This is a good example of failing to "gun-proof" your kids.

[gorfle]

17. Some obeservations.

According to the article, the firearm was kept locked up in a closet, but the child broke into the closet and got at the firearm.

A 13 year old boy should have been taught by that age how to properly handle a firearm.

Buy a gun safe. You can get a 14 gun safe for $150. I got mine at Dick's Sporting Goods. It's made by Stack-on. It's not much, but it's probably better than a closet door.

[jeepnstein]

19. The gun was locked up.

If the kid had to break into the closet to get access to the gun, well, there's your sign. He broke into a locked closet to get the gun. The firearm was not left lying about amongst whiskey bottles.

A 13 year old boy should know full well not to break down doors to get at things that don't belong to him.

[rrneck]

21. Closets

aren't normally lockable. They are designed that way to keep people from accidently locking themselves inside them. Not only did somebody have to change the knob from a passage to keyed entry, they probably had to secure the hinge pins since almost all closets open into the room. Somebody went to some trouble there and it still didn't work.

Of course if the parent knew s/he had a hard to control kid, they bear most of the responsibility. Not every home should have a firearm in it and if there is a kid there willing to tear shit up, that's a good candidate.

[iverglas]

31. so what was your first clue?

Closets aren't normally lockable.

Police said Christian Madrigal and his friend had been playing video games at a home in the 21400 block of Orrick Avenue at about 2:40 p.m. The boys somehow got into a locked gun cabinet inside the home and got out a gun.

They are designed that way to keep people from accidently locking themselves inside them. Not only did somebody have to change the knob from a passage to keyed entry, they probably had to secure the hinge pins since almost all closets open into the room. Somebody went to some trouble there and it still didn't work.

Something that makes little sense, well, makes little sense. But it was good enough for you.

Good enough for anybody, if their real aim is to discredit any notion that firearms in a home are virtually never secure from either children or thieves, and paint a 13-yr-old who accesses a firearm as a gangbanger, i.e. not a real child. Musta been a monster (gangbanger, sociopath ...), one way or another.

Never just a kid doing what kids do: what they're told not to.

[rrneck]

33. From the link in the OP.

A 13-year-old boy playing with a handgun in Carson was killed Thursday afternoon when the weapon accidentally discharged, authorities said.

Homicide investigators from the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department were investigating the shooting and a second, unrelated fatal shooting that occurred a short time later in Maywood.

In the Carson case, the boy and a friend, also 13, were playing with video games when they discovered a locked closet, broke in and found the gun, said Sheriff's Deputy Aura Sierra

The rest of your post doesn't merit comment.

[iverglas]

34. oh no, Paco!!!

The media, of course, never get things slightly confused.

Nooooo. When they say AK47 machine gun, they mean AK47 machine gun, 'cause that's what it was.

When one media source says "locked cabinet" and another says "closet", why the one that said "closet" must be correct.

And the kids must be gang-bangers.

[rrneck]

38. And sometimes negligent DUers

quote from sources without a link.

[iverglas]

41. oh, you poor baby

Your google news is broken.

http://news.google.ca/news/search?pz=1&ned=ca&hl=en&q=carson+locked+handgun

Damn, wouldya lookit that.

The particular one consulted:

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=6964877

How did I ever find that????


13-year-old dies in Carson while playing with gun
Daily Breeze - Larry Altman - ‎16 hours ago‎
According to deputies, Cristian and the other boy had been playing video games, but gained access to a locked gun cabinet and retrieved a handgun. ...

SoCal boy killed while playing with handgun
San Diego 6 - ‎Aug 14, 2009‎
Los Angeles County sheriff's Deputy Aura Sierra says the boy and a friend had been playing video games when they broke into a locked gun cabinet inside the ...

Carson youth killed in accidental shooting
Contra Costa Times - ‎Aug 14, 2009‎
The unidentified teen and a friend had been playing video games on Thursday when they broke into a locked gun cabinet inside the home, officials said. ...

Carson Boy, 13, Killed While Playing With Handgun
CBS 2 - ‎Aug 14, 2009‎
The victim and another boy had been playing video games but then got into a locked gun cabinet inside the home and brought out a handgun, Sierra said. ...

Teen killed while playing with gun
abc7.com - ‎Aug 14, 2009‎
(KABC) -- A 13-year-old boy was killed when the gun he and a friend were playing with went off in Carson on Thursday. Police said Christian Madrigal and his ...

KTLA
Boy Playing With Gun Accidentally Shot to Death
KTLA - ‎Aug 14, 2009‎
Madrigal and another boy, also 13, had been playing video games but got into a locked gun cabinet inside the home and brought out the handgun, according to ...

[rrneck]

42. Well done!

Maybe when you get your knuckles off the ground you'll find your common courtesy under there.

[westerm]

28. buy a real safe

you can break into those stack-on "gun cabinets" with your hands and feet. a kid could probably break into one of those with whatever you happen to have lying in the same room, or he could just go grab a screwdriver or even a sturdy knife and pry the thing open, no problem.

[gorfle]

30. Feel free to donate to my "real safe" fund.

The simple fact of the matter is with a prybar you can break into one of those $1000+ safes pretty easily, too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2EyFNCAX3s

They crack into one of the usual gun safes in about a minute.

Of course, they break into one like mine in just a few seconds.

My safe is CDOJ rated, which means that it passes what the State of California says is a minimum for safe firearm storage. For $150, I'm content that I've got something that will keep my kids out of it at least until they are old enough to know how to handle firearms.

I've like to have one of those Liberty Centurion safes, but they start at around $800.

Steve

[Euromutt]

40. FWIW, UL-rated "Residential Security Containers" are supposed to last five minutes

Admittedly, that's against one guy with "normal" hand tools. Add a second guy, or power tools, and all bets are off.

Now, do note that in that video, they start with the "safe" on its back, which gives them a major advantage right off the bat in that they can use gravity to apply force to their tools. In practice, any owner of an RSC or other safe will have it with its back to a wall (ideally in a corner), and bolted to the floor, which makes the job significantly harder.

The fact does remain that a determined and halfway professional burglar will be able to defeat a "Residential Security Container," almost as readily as he can defeat a "Stack-On" cabinet, athletic locker, or similar. That doesn't mean either class of container is worthless. An RSC may well deter a "casual" burglar, like a junkie or some dumb neighborhood kids, while any kind of locked container may quite readily deter children in the household. See, kids are curious, and while they're quite willing to snoop inside cabinets, cupboards and containers they've been told not to look into, they don't like to leave evidence that they've been snooping. And broken locks are strong evidence indeed. So in practice, if it's the children you're concerned about, the fact that they could theoretically break into a container is mostly irrelevant; the question is whether they can gain access without leaving evidence that they have.

[Euromutt]

32. Yep, same old routine

Present anecdotal evidence, make unsupported assertion about how it's all the guns' fault, with implication that if only we didn't have firearms, we'd be living in a violence-free paradise.

According to one historian, the murder rate in 14th century England may have been something in the order of 12/100,000, which is more than twice the U.S. homicide rate over the past decade, even though man-portable firearms were practically unheard of outside of warfare during that period. How could that be?

[iverglas]

36. indeed indeed indeed!

Yep, same old routine
... make unsupported assertion about how it's all the guns' fault

Same old and very tired routine!

Claim that someone has ascribed fault to an inanimate object ... trying thereby to make said someone look like a delusional fool ... when no one did it. But hey, if someone reads your post, they might think someone did!


According to one historian, the murder rate in 14th century England may have been something in the order of 12/100,000

Whoa, congratulations! It should only take you another 600 years or so to halve your homicide rate again, to where it matches the rest of the similar world today.

But who knows, by then we may have built a moat around you and your "man-portable firearms" and gone about the business of human progress on our own.

[beevul]

37. Yes indeed, same old routine.

scaresunited inciting the moral panic.


At least you're consistant, scares...

[Tejas]

44. too many lead pipes

Suspect Arrested in Attack on Milwaukee Mayor

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/53344837.html

Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett is in stable condition at the hospital after a suspect beat him in the head with a metal pipe in West Allis.

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