Did pipes embolden this crime?

[friendly_iconoclast]

http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/53344777.html

Yep, looks like. Pretty much.

Would the crime have occurred without access to blunt objects?

No, probably not.

Thanks, Home Depot!

I just feel the need to answer posts which praise or defend pipes, or proselytize that more of them is some kind of good thing. Don't mass produce the stuff and make it available for retail purchase at a store which a DIYer can stop in at the way to work, where he is headed to take care of what he considers to be a problem boss or problem co-workers.


I know that we are all becoming numbed by the growing number of random beatings. But it is a public safety problem which eventually must be confronted and dealt with by removing the dangerous product from society.

You know what I'm talking about. They can go to the hardware store when they are angry or depressed or have some personal grudge to settle

Stop the sale of new pipes and other blunt objects. Pinch off the source.

[rrneck]

1. Watch it.

You're going to hear from Joe the Plumber about that.

[friendly_iconoclast]

2. Licensed plumbers would be exempt

After a thourough background check, and with strict licensing of course.

There is no need for an ordinary civilian to posess one of these deadly objects that are ruining our society.

A program of confiscation and reeducation for offenders will be necessary. An atmosphere of zero tolerance,
like that for child pornography, must be encouraged...

[rrneck]

5. Oh, okay.

Of course, every home and business structure would have to be periodically searched to insure that no pipes have been removed and converted into deadly automatic assault pipes.

And PVC would have to be outlawed since it won't trip a metal detector.

[friendly_iconoclast]

8. The real world is one in which pipes are a scourge and more pipes are the claimed solution

Wherever there is a pipe worshipper berating a guy who favors eradication, I'll be there.

Yeah, I'm Tom Joad.

[rrneck]

12. Betcher ass I worship my pipe.

:evilgrin: :bounce:

[sharesunited]

3. Genius. The perp couldn't afford a gun, which is A Very Good Thing.

Scarcer guns = more expensive guns.

Scarcer ammo = more expensive ammo.

Both which mean less guns and ammo being used in society: A Very Good Thing.

[rrneck]

6. Lets work on that a bit.

Scarcer guns = more expensive guns.

Scarcer ammo = more expensive ammo.

Both which mean less guns and ammo being used in society by people who need to defend themselves: A Very BAD Thing.

[sharesunited]

7. By people who need to defend themselves against the guns you want them to have.

The easier to get guns and ammo, the more guns and ammo are put forward as a "solution" to the guns and ammo problem.

Let's turn that runaway bus to Crazytown around.

[friendly_iconoclast]

9. Yeah, we can revert back to the 15th century version of gang violence

Instead of getting your muscle from the trunk of someone's car, you'll reruit it at the local gym.

Then we'll have to regulate weightlifting equipment and martial arts training, of course.


Google 'football firm' to see what even untrained melee fighters can do when they're organized.

[Statistical]

10. Not to defend against another gun but rather to defend against the weapon of choice A PIPE!

Didn't you even read the thread?

How am I going to defend myself from an expert pipe wielding felon. I mean he is a "professional criminal" I can never hope to match him in pipe smashing skills.
Plus I think my employer has a "no pipe" policy. So I need a gun to protect myself from pipe felons.

[sharesunited]

13. Yes, I know this story. If the perp had a gun the lady and the mayor would be dead.

A more desirable outcome? I don't THINK so.

[Statistical]

14. Or he would have simply threatened them with the gun or...

they would be one of the millions of people who survive a gunshot wound every year.

It is strange how instantly your mind goes to the worst possible scenario involving a firearm.

gun = auto death no exceptions. an unloaded gun kills all forms of life within 1000 m by its powerful death ray.

[sharesunited]

15. There is a whole spectrum of gunshot survival. Brain damage to never bathing normally again.

[Statistical]

16. Yup once again worst possible outcome.

It is utterly fascinating.

I would love to see you describe some inkblots

"That one looks like a gun"
"That one looks like an assault gun"
"That one looks like a gun killing someone"
"That one looks like an ER full of gun victims"
"That one looks like a table....... with a gun on it".

[sharesunited]

18. Maybe you're a good sport about being shot. Not me!

[Katya Mullethov]

30. The odds of you collecting a round are infinitesimally small

But you're gonna have to go outside to find out .

[rrneck]

19. It's true.

But you have to have one of these hats for it to work.

[friendly_iconoclast]

20. Newsflash for ya, shares: BEATINGS CAN BE FATAL!

Or permanently disabling.

Even the ones *without* blunt objects. Hands and feet will do nicely if the assailant is motivated.

In the days of my misspent youth, there was a charming local practice known as the "urine test", to wit:

Beating, punching or kicking the victim about the abdomen so hard they pissed blood. To deliver this was known
as 'giving a urine test'. One guy I knew was beaten to the point he became a partial hemiplegic.

Eliminating guns won't eliminate violence, no matter how attractive the idea may be.

[sharesunited]

22. You want to make inflicting death and injury easier?

Yes you can be killed by being beaten or stabbed. But that takes some effort on the perp's part. The victim can fight back or run away. They can't outrun a bullet!

[GreenStormCloud]

25. Often the intended victim can't run or fight back

You said: Yes you can be killed by being beaten or stabbed. But that takes some effort on the perp's part. The victim can fight back or run away. They can't outrun a bullet!

I am a senior citizen, with some infirmities in my legs. I would not be able to run away from a youthful mugger, or even a middle-aged mugger for that matter. Nor could I effectively fight back against such a person. But the two guns that I carry on my person give me the ability to effectively resist violent attack.

My first defense is being aware of my surroundings, and trying to see and avoid trouble. But if trouble come to me anyway, I am ready.

Your solution would leave me at the non-existent mercy of criminals.

[pipoman]

26. Explain how

this man

can defend himself against this man



regardless the implement used by the latter.

Removing guns from the law abiding will and has resulted in brutal survival of the fittest and victimization of the weakest.

[Pangolin2]

29. I'm sure Matthew Shepherd appreciates your insight.

Oh, wait, he can't, he's dead...from being beaten to death.
:grr:

[Euromutt]

36. Your position is inconsistent

After, you keep going on about how "guns embolden crime," the logical upshot of which is that, absent a firearm, this assault shouldn't have happened in the first place.

But it did.

So now you're conveniently ignoring the evidence that violent crime can occur without firearms, and quickly shifting the goalposts to "well, it would have been worse if there'd been a gun involved." Which is arguably true, but doesn't alter the fact that this violent crime occurred in spite of the offender not having a firearm.

You're also conveniently overlooking that, with only a modicum of bad luck, this assault could have had a nastier result as well. Mayor Barrett took at least two blows to the head, both requiring medical treatment, and it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that if those blows had landed a few inches off from where they did, they might have had severe and lasting repercussions.

What, in short, does it take to convince you that violent crime would continue to occur even if firearms could be completely eliminated from American society? What does it take to convince you that the decision to use a firearm for nefarious purposes usually follows the decision to engage in unlawful activity, and the possession of a firearm in and of itself does not precipitate that decision?

[rrneck]

11. I don't necessarily want anybody to have a gun.

Where did you get that idea?

I suggest you give some consideration to the disparity of force between everyday folks and others who prey on people for a living. Lets flog that mathematical metaphor some more.

On the one hand we have a ninety pound mother of two vs. a 190 pound rapist armed with a pistol. That's a very wide disparity of force.

Now, lets take the gun away from our rapist and give him a knife. The mother of two will still lose in any confrontation with the rapist because of the still very wide disparity of force.

Okay, lets disarm the rapist entirely. The mother of two still won't have a chance. He will be able to beat her to a pulp.

Now I guess you know what's coming next. Give the mother of two a handgun and the disparity of force will be narrowed considerably. It will not be equalized, that's impossible. And since firearms can be very dangerous she must use care since accidents can happen. But at least she will have a chance.

You seem an eloquent fellow. How would you explain how not having an effective means of self defense would be a good thing to the friends and family of someone who died for its lack? Type it up. I'd like to read it.

Innocents die every day from bullet wounds, sometimes because of negligence, other times from malice. Just making the guns go away is not an adequate solution.

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. Read some of the replies at this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x249145

Apparently, the shooter harshed the mellow of the three yoots who only wanted a snicky-snack, it seems.

Some of the more delicate flowers there just couldn't seem to understand that a gang beating can be fatal,
with no more weaponry than a shod foot, much less a pipe or baseball bat.

[rrneck]

21. I don't get it.

I have a scar on my chin. Not from a fight, but I got hit by a jack handle (yeah, just like in the cartoons). It broke three teeth and hurt a fair bit.

Nobody has ever looked at me and thought, "Here comes an ass whipping". I've never been in a fist fight much less a gun fight but I am aware of physics. Reading some of the comments here makes me wonder if there are actually people who have never been so much as bumped in their entire lives.

No wonder liberals take so much heat from Republicans.

[spin]

4. K&R (n/t)

[AtheistCrusader]

23. *SNORK*

A thing of beauty, but technically, I belive this parody might count as a callout.

[proteus_lives]

24. Well Done!

I tip my hat to you!

Of course it's wasted on the intended audience. He's far too faithful and ignorant for satire.

:rofl:

[zbdent]

27. Ted Stevens would introduce legislation which affirms the right to carry tubes ...

[benEzra]

28. Five to ten times as many people are murdered with blunt objects as with "assault weapons."

Ban bats and pipes, for the children! If you don't support a ban, you don't care about the suffering of the victims and their families! And are just a mindless stooge of the pipe lobby and the baseball bat lobby!

[gorfle]

31. More on this story from CNN

http://www.ktvu.com/news/20558671/detail.html

Once again, we have someone bent on mass murder who has feelings of being slighted by his peers and is out for revenge.

"San Mateo Police Chief Susan Manheimer said Tuesday afternoon that Youshock's "sole intent was to kill, injure or commit mayhem to as many students, staff and faculty as possible," and that the motive was "self-construed revenge.""

Video:
http://www.ktvu.com/video/20558709/index.html

"He was never really talkative...he was always just...really quiet".

"...a techno-wizard..."

[friendly_iconoclast]

32. I had forgotten about the "pipes as part of an IED" angle. Thanks, gorfle!

Another reason to severely restrict them, along with pipe cutters and threaders. Someone can make a bomb using them.

[JonQ]

33. Really the attacker is as much a victim in this as anyone

A victim of the pervasive pipe culture that we have in this country. And greedy pipe companies forcing these things on an unsuspecting populace.

I think there should be strict regulations on the size, weight, and material pipes may be built from. Also they can't be painted black, or concealed on your person or hidden in the walls of your house.

[backwoodsbob]

34. nothing yet about a big pipe making up for other shortcomings?

I'm disappointed

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

35. Shocking Statistic!! - Pipes found in nearly 99% of homes in US.

Clearly, the agenda of the Pipe Manufactures and National Pipe Association are responsible for this egregious uniquely american condition.