Sportsmen and gun groups outraged at new California law...

[spin]

Sportsmen's and pro-gun groups are up in arms over a recent bill signed by Calif. Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger that puts restrictions on the purchase of certain ammunition beginning Feb. 1, 2011.

The National Shooting Sports Foundation and the California Assn. of Firearms Retailers are highly critical of the decision to sign into law AB 962, which will require firearms dealers and ammunition vendors to keep a registry of all buyers of handgun ammo. The bill also bans all mail order and Internet sales of such ammunition and reloading components.

***snip***

"This legislation will drive many small, independent retailers already struggling in a poor economy out of business or force them to flee California," said CAFR President Marc Halcon.

"Those retailers who can afford to stay will be forced to substantially raise prices to law-abiding consumers who, under AB 692, will now be fingerprinted like common criminals simply for exercising their Second Amendment rights," continued Halcon. "It is silly, at best, to think criminals will stand in line to be fingerprinted to buy ammunition from licensed retailers."

"Gov. Schwarzenegger has just created an underground black market for ammunition," Halcon added.

Ammo sales, already at an increased level from gun enthusiasts, including hunters and target shooters fearing stricter gun laws, will likely now become more robust in the coming months.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/outposts/2009/10/ab-962-sportsmen.html

Many, many years ago in Florida I remember having to show my drivers license whenever I bought any ammo that could be used in a handgun. My name, drivers license number and the type and amount of ammo I purchased was recorded in a log kept by the store owner.

It was a "feel good" law that accomplished nada, zip, nothing. After a few years it quietly went away.

I've tried to research details on this law, but my Google-fo has failed me. I'm not sure whether the law was at the local, state or national level.

The Governator should stick to acting or maybe become a spokesman for the Brady Campaign. His future in politics looks grim considering the situation in California.

[nykym]

1. The Second Amendment says

this: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.. Nothing about buying ammunition.

[proteus_lives]

3. That canard has been passed around and discarded.

Try something else and see if it sticks.

[BOSSHOG]

7. Why aren't NRA

members part of a WELL REGULATED MILITIA?

What's hunting animals have to do with THE SECURITY OF A FREE STATE?

Check out this canard. See way back when the founding fathers needed armed citizens to defend the country so they wrote the second amendment. If ya want canards join the NRA. If ya want to drop any arguments about the second amendment lets have a constitutional convention and word it accordingly. Like bring it into the 21st century.

[friendly_iconoclast]

11. Someone needs to read up on his Supreme Court decisions

Heller removed that bit.

Do try and keep up, mmkay?

[BOSSHOG]

14. You mean conservative judicial activism

If Heller was correct when it was passed, why wasn't it correct 200 years ago? When ya stack the court with conservative neanderthals you get Heller's.

Heller was not the founding fathers intent. A constitutional convention would clear these matters up which beats the hell out of interpretation. But the NRA's of the country wouldn't want that.

[rd_kent]

17. So, whenever a decision is made that you dont like, it's JUDICIAL ACTIVISM?

That term is so bunk.

[Hoopla Phil]

31. Heller is exactly the fathers intent. Read the research and footnotes in Heller.

Seriously. You really need to study up on it because you are contradicting it badly with your unsupported statements on it.

[gorfle]

52. Please share with us.

Heller was not the founding fathers intent.

Please share with us your interpretation of the founding fathers' intent concerning the second amendment.

[rd_kent]

16. Heres the link to Heller...you can read it yourself and remove your ignorance on the subject

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

[Hoopla Phil]

30. "the Second Amendment right is exercised individually and belongs to all Americans."

That is from the Heller decision. You can learn a lot about the meaning and intent behind the 2A by reading that decision. It is very well researched and foot noted.

[beevul]

44. Ahh, another poster ignorant of what the bill of rights is...

Color me shocked. Not.


Here, boss, heres some facts for you to chew on. Remember to chew completely, and not to eat them too fast or you may get indigestion...

The bill of rights is a laundry list of declaratory and restrictive clauses, aimed at ensuring that government does not misconstrue or abuse its power. What? Don't believe me, or think maybe thats just an opinion or a wrong interpretation? Its an nra talking point, right? :sarcasm:

Here ya go, from the document itself:

The First 10 Amendments to the Constitution as Ratified by the States December 15, 1791

Preamble

Congress OF THE United States begun and held at the City of New York, on Wednesday the Fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

THE Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added : And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution

http://billofrights.org/

Now, lets look at the second amendment (the one that was actually ratified):

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."




Heres the declaratory clause:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state,..."

And heres the restrictive clause:

"...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."


Game over.

You lose.

Now that you have been shown the facts, can we assume that you'll no longer be spouting that militia nonsense?

[gorfle]

51. THEY ARE.

Why aren't NRA members part of a WELL REGULATED MILITIA?

The Dick Act of 1903 created the Organized Militia (the National Guard) and the Unorganized Militia - all able bodied men aged 17-45 not already in the Organized Militia.

If you are a man aged 17-45 you are already in the militia. Thus a good chunk of NRA members, like myself, already are in the militia, and are quite well regulated.

If ya want to drop any arguments about the second amendment lets have a constitutional convention and word it accordingly.

Feel free to round up the political support for such a Constitutional amendment.

Like bring it into the 21st century.

The fears of tyranny by the central government are as relevant today in the 21st century as they were in the 18th. If anything, the people are now in need of even more defensive capabilities.

[nykym]

10. Well you seem to have

all the answers, Lets hear them and please no tired old canards that have been passed around for years. How would you propose to make it safe for people to own guns.

[BOSSHOG]

15. Give me

the intent of the founding fathers not an attempt to change the subject. Hell lets arm all high school students for SAFETY'S SAKE. Great pro gun idea huh?

[Hoopla Phil]

32. LOL Ha Ha Ha. Funny hyperbole there.

[gorfle]

53. Red Herring.

Give me the intent of the founding fathers not an attempt to change the subject. Hell lets arm all high school students for SAFETY'S SAKE. Great pro gun idea huh?

Nice red herring. No one has advocated arming all high school students. Noe one has claimed that this was the intent of the founding fathers.

Please share with us your interpretation of the intent of the founding fathers.

[nykym]

12. Well you seem to have

all the answers, Lets hear them and please no tired old canards that have been passed around for years. How would you propose to make it safe for law abiding citizens to own guns.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rd_kent]

13. Your ignorance is exposed, thanks to Atheist Crusader

From another thread, courtesy of Atheist Crusader

The Militia Act of 1792 (One year after the ratification of the 2nd amendment) required males to posses a rifle and a certain amount of shot/powder.

Act of May 8, 1792; Second Cong., First Session, ch. 33

'Arms' are useless, and actually just clubs, without ammunition.



Now you can stop with the ammo not included meme.

[nykym]

19. Lots of talk but no

real answers. How bout we make all gun owners walk barefoot!

[rd_kent]

21. WTF are you talking about? The answer is right infront of you.

The last part is an excerpt from THE CONGRESSIONAL RECORD!!!!

[nykym]

22. Thats right lets all

sweat the minutia and not try to solve the real problem. I guess your ammo is more important than a citizens life.

[rd_kent]

26. Hahaha! Minutia? The congressional record on the subject is minutia?

Whats the REAL problem you are referring to then?

[nykym]

28. It's really simple.

How do we get meaningful legislation that serves both those who love guns and those who don't. It is not about how much ammo one can buy and what restrictions are imposed for that end. And it really doesn't matter what the OP is for this. It's all small talk until the real problem is solved. At that point there might not be a law in CA that we have now.

[rd_kent]

34. I dont LOVE guns

I do LOVE the constitution though, and the last time I checked, it says my right to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

The real problem is criminal behavior and the lack of enforcement for that criminal behavior. If someone uses a gun to commit a crime, a life sentence without parole should be imposed. Very simple, not "gun laws" needed. Criminals go to jail, citizens get to exercise their constitutional rights. Win-win!

[gorfle]

54. This issue is not about loving or not loving guns.

How do we get meaningful legislation that serves both those who love guns and those who don't.

How about not? Because the issue is not about the love of guns, or lack of love for guns.

The issue is the Constitutional right to keep and bear arms as a final check against tyranny and oppression both from within and without.

That is the issue. Either you support the people having the tools to be able to do this, or you don't.

[spin]

38. Why don't we try to control gangs in California...

The dialogue enabled high school students, educators, community leaders and others throughout California to examine and discuss the many critical issues concerning gangs in California.

Gangs and gang activity are much more than the subject of movies and song lyrics for many California teens. Gangs are a way of life for some youths in the state and many others are indirectly affected by gang activity. Though by some measures, gang activity has been decreasing in recent years (US Department of Justice, 2002 National Youth Gang Survey Fact Sheet, April 2004) some communities are reporting increases in gang violence, and there is evidence that gang activity has become more deadly. In any case, participation in gangs is a persistent problem. The California Department of Justice puts the number of gang members in California at an estimated 300,000.

More than 1,400 criminal street gangs exist in Los Angeles County. Gang crimes – from graffiti and quality of life problems to murder and extortion – devastate a community’s well-being and sense of security. To fight gang activity, the District Attorney’s Office pursues a comprehensive strategy that includes suppression, intervention, and prevention.
http://da.co.la.ca.us/gangs.htm

Gangs today draw members from all races, classes, and ethnic groups, which means that communities that once felt immune to gang activity are now having to address the problem. This is especially true for schools, which have increasingly felt the need to reduce and prevent gang activity.
http://archive.webdialogues.net/cs/legischool-gangs/view/di/74?x-t=home.view

Eventually, James started talking. He told me he’d started gangbanging when he was 12. “I got shot when I was 15, and that’s when it got bad,” he said softly. “I got extreme after I got shot.” James started teaching youngsters from Nickerson how to gangbang. Using rival gangbangers for practice, he taught his students how to hunt and kill. “You teach a person how not to take losses, how to be gladiators, run them down, gun them down,” he explained.

James wasn’t remorseful, but he was far from proud. In truth, he seemed numb; his life of crime and death hung about him in a static haze. There is a personal demilitarized zone in the advanced lives of former hardcore gang members, should they survive their 20s, where they live as neither soldier nor citizen. James said he struggles to keep a gun out of his own hands every day, but that in January he was tempted to join the battle with the Grape Street Crips after a young Bounty Hunter he knew was killed.
http://www.laweekly.com/2007-12-13/news/l-a-gangs-nine-miles-and-spreading/1

The solutions to violent gang crime are far from simple and involve far more than law enforcement.

But seriously, wouldn't it be better to work on real solutions to the problem of gang violence rather then pass "feel good" laws that target and harass honest gun owners and have little or no effect on criminals?

[Hoopla Phil]

35. Like it or not Ammunition IS part of the definition of Arms as used in the 2A.

You may not WANT to accept it but the definition is what it is.

[Hoopla Phil]

29. The definition of Arms includes firearms AND the ammunition that goes in them.

[proteus_lives]

2. It's a bullshit, do-nothing law.

You're right about "feel good" it accomplishes nothing and should be struck down. I hope it's challenged soon.

[imdjh]

4. What a load of crap. Remember when California kind of represented freedom?

And then all those hippies got together in one place and started thinking about ways to oppress. Don't do this, don't say that, don't eat this, don't smoke that, but it's OK to smoke this....

[rrneck]

6. Tennessee was like that too. nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

8. While gun shop owners in Oregon, Nevada, and Arizona are overjoyed.

Hope they will send Ahnuld a nice fruit basket for Christmas. He just ensured them a happy and prosperous 2010.

[aikoaiko]

9. While the .50 cal ban didn't impact many and the bullet ID thing fell through...

making everyone give a thumbprint will irritate a lot of average law abiding folks for being too intrusive.

Here's to hoping that Ahnold and the legislators who voted for this pay the price.

[oneshooter]

20. Both the California Assembly and Senate

are majority DEMOCRATS.

"Here's to hoping that Ahnold and the legislators who voted for this pay the price."

Still feel the same?
Who should we trust?

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[aikoaiko]

25. Yes, there are better Democrats out there than the ones who voted for this.

I say that as an act of faith.

[slackmaster]

18. It doesn't ban mail-order sales of reloading components

Someone didn't check the facts.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20091011_chaptered.html

[oneshooter]

23. It seems the law covers more than "ammunition"

" (2) For purposes of this subdivision, "ammunition" shall include,
but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with a deadly consequence. "Ammunition" does not include
blanks.

If you want to purchase a 20rd mag, stripper clip, speed loader(for revolvers, or "projectile" aka bullet for reloading you have to give up a thumb print.

Congratulations California!!!! The police nanny state is approaching rapidly!!!

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[slackmaster]

24. That language refers to the section that provides a penalty for selling things to prohibited people

Convicted felons, people under restraining orders, illegal aliens, etc.

Note this part just above:

(b) (1) No person prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm
under Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103
of the Welfare and Institutions Code shall own, possess, or have
under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded
ammunition.

It has nothing to do with mail-order sales. Unfortunately, many sellers will be confused or unsure of the meaning of the law, so they will stop sales to California of items that are perfectly legal to ship to California.

:argh:

[spin]

27. This may spread like the swine flu to other states...

It seems to be the path the anti-gun groups intend to follow.

[spin]

33. Deleted by poster...

replied to wrong poster.

[Hoopla Phil]

36. K&R

[spin]

37. Cabela's restrictions on shipping ammo to California...

To: Cabela's California Customers
From: Cabela's Communications
Subject: California Assembly Bill 962
Date: Sept. 22, 2009

We are writing to inform you of pending legislation that will restrict purchases of handgun ammunition in California and will terminate our ability to service your needs for certain products.

On Friday, Sept. 11, the California Assembly passed Assembly Bill 962, by a 44-31 vote.

Among other regulations, AB 962 would:
• Ban all mail-order and Internet sales of handgun ammunition.
• Prohibit the retail sale, the offer for sale or the display of handgun ammunition in a
manner that allows ammunition to be accessible to a purchaser without assistance of a
vendor or employee.
• Require that the delivery or transfer of ownership of handgun ammunition occur in a
face-to-face transaction, with the deliverer or transferor being provided bona fide
evidence of identity of the purchaser or other transferee.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/email/092409/092209al.jsp?cmCat=email&cm_cat=4971&cm_ven=email-nl&cm_pla=HA-0100&cm_ite=092209al.jsp&eid=2122720&cmp=I090922A&seg=BG1&cnt=4971&ctb=092209al

That should piss a lot of shooters off in California.

[-..__...]

39. Logging ammo sales was a Federal thing...

part of the 1968 Gun Control Act.

Fortunately it was repealed by the Firearm Owners Protection Act (FOPA)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act

Unfortunately however, due to an underhanded move by the gun grabbers, the same legislation also included the 1986 ban on newly manufactured full-auto firearms to civilians.

[Tejas]

40. So, would FOPA prohibit fingerprinting ammo sales?

I'm confused.

[-..__...]

42. IANAL...

but my best guess is no.

What the FOPA did was lift a few restrictions imposed on firearms/ammo sales at the Federal level (FFLs, interstate commerce).

While the 68 GCA banned mail order ammo and mandated record keeping of ammo sales (both since rescinded), fingerprinting was never one of those requirements.

The FOPA is irrelevant to AB 962; however, there is one little bit of ray of sunshine on the horizon for California gun owners (at least for mail order ammo sales)...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=230676

At least they have plenty of time to work on that and I wish them the best of luck.

[Euromutt]

47. I'm pessimistic

I just went through that thread, and nobody seems to have clocked the major sticking point, which is that even if interstate deliveries by "air carriers" are pre-empted from regulation below the federal level by the FAA Authorization Act, ORM-D materials (such as ammunition) aren't shipped by air, they're shipped by ground. I dropped an e-mail to Bill Wiese via Guntards.net (we both have accounts there) pointing that out; I hope I don't wreck his day.

[one-eyed fat man]

41. Ammo sales logbook requirement

That requirement was in the Gun Control Act of 1968 at its inception. Any ammunition sold which could be used in any sort of handgun had to be logged by the seller. The requirement was eliminated at the Federal level in 1986 after it was determined to be largely useless.

[spin]

45. Thanks, I wasted a lot of time trying to find that...

but it does show that history repeats itself and the anti-gun groups have resurrected an old failed program.

[Israfel4]

43. Someone is going to make

ALOT OF MONEY by opening an ammo shop on the Nevada/Cali border in 2011. Unless it's struck down by then of course.

[Hoopla Phil]

46. So how does this law square with The Interstate Commerce Clause?

It would seem to me that a state putting up barriers such as this to another states products would be in violation of that constitutional clause.

[slackmaster]

48. There is all kinds of precedent for states doing that

For example, California has its own set of emissions standards for cars. I'm not sure this is still true, but for a long time car manufacturers made two versions of their products, one for CA and another for the other 49 states.

Fireworks can be sold in many states, but not in California because of fire danger here. Same is true for tracer ammunition.

[Hoopla Phil]

49. I know that CA has done these in the past. But have any of those ever been challenged

as violations of the Commerce Clause?

[spin]

50. Attempt to repeal law before it takes effect ....

REPEAL OF AB 962 IS IN THE WORKS

Outrage! That's the reaction that CRPA and NRA members in California are understandably having to the news that the Governor signed AB 962 into law on October 11, 2009. AB 962 is slated to go into effect February 1, 2011. But we are not going to just stand by and wait. CRPA and NRA have already started the legislative wheels turning to halt AB 962 before the 2011 implementation date.

CRPA and NRA members want this bill reversed, and that is what we are going to do! Assemblyman Curt Hagman (R- Diamond Bar) has stepped up and agreed to carry legislation on our members' behalf. Earlier this year Assemblyman Hagman introduced AB 373 which proposed to streamline the sale of handguns. He has now agreed to amend AB 373 to call for the repeal of AB 962.
http://www.gunnewsdaily.com/index.php/article-archives/157-repeal-of-ab962-in-the-works