How many innocent people are you willing to sacrifice?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

The facts are clear the vast majority of gun homicides and gun assaults are committed by people who are barred from firearm possession. So let's say that those here who wish to ban all private possession of firearms get there way and repeal the 2nd Amendment. The criminals aren't going to turn in their guns. So after all the innocent people are disarmed, how many innocent people will have to be murdered, raped, beaten before we put a serious dent in the number of firearms in society held by criminals? Will you mourn for them or just consider them collateral damage?

[Hoopla Phil]

1. If a gun ban COSTS a human life then the ban is not worth it.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

2. Thanks for your response.

[Arctic Dave]

21. Guns already cost lives, are they worth it.

Absolutionist ideals don't work either way.

[pscot]

3. I'm flexible

Define innocent.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

4. Law abiding citizens who are victimized by murderers, home invaders and rapists.

[rrneck]

5. Good point. nt

[1]

6. laws make people feel good. do you want to stop drug abuse? pass a law...

does the terrible abuse of prostitution bother you? pass a law...

see what i just did there? i just ended drug abuse and prostitution. just like that. by passing laws. now we can all feel good. rest our tiny little heads on our pillows at night and sleep well.



well actually, i didn't. there are already laws banning these things.

and yet these things still go on. hummm...



the biggest problem i have with those that wish to pass "laws" to feel good is their ignorance. (yes, you are that ignorant. i'm looking at you. yes, you...)

[greennina]

7. Considering it's those "legal" gun owners who give guns to the lunatics...

They are to blame for the mess we have. All new guns sold require a background check. The Republicans that buy them pass the background checks then give them to people that can't legally possess them. Another way to look at it is that if you're stupid enough to buy a gun, you're too stupid to keep it safe.

[eqfan592]

8. wow, I'd be interested to see in person the twisted reality you exist in! :P (nt)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

10. You have some statistics that show the political persuasions of straw purchasers.

I'd love to see them.

[friendly_iconoclast]

16. Wait, is it only Republicans that buy guns, or they're the only straw purchasers?

Why don't you go have a rest, and come back when you're somewhat less confused...

[Hepburn]

20. +1

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rl6214]

26. WOW

You are really some messed up kind of crazy. Republicans buy guns legally so they can pass them to people that can't legally possess them? If you are stupid enough to buy a gun, you are too stupid to keep it safe?

How do you figure this out and what are you on when you do it?

[benEzra]

31. Only half of gun owners are repubs, dude.

The other half are Dems and indies, as Clinton and the DLC found out the hard way in November 1994.

[taurus145]

36. Odd thing

I've been reading DU for years and finally joined. It seems that I remember a thread in the Gungeon several years back about Sarah Brady and a straw purchase. I don't think Sarah was too cozy with the republicans at the time.

In short, do you have anything in the way of statistics to back up your claim?

Last I checked, crime knows no party or political bounds.

Now we can spin off into space with "What about...?"

[Birthmark]

9. You are missing the *real* culprit.

It is a fact that 100% of all murders is the direct result of human interaction. Therefore, I propose that as soon as humans are born that they be placed in 10'x10'x8' escape-proof cubicles for the safety of themselves and others. I guarantee that adopting this proposal will prevent ALL murders.

Hey, crazy is FUN!!!

[divideandconquer]

11. Violence begets violence, gun nuts are to blame for all this domestic terror

They dance in the blood and scream for more guns. If American society won't confront the gun nuts/neo-cons, then no one is innocent. That's how the rest of the world sees us.

[kelly1mm]

12. Why didn't I get an invite to the dance? Quit holding out on me!

what a joke.

[Birthmark]

13. No, nuts are to blame for any terror.

Their choice of tool to express their crazy is of little interest to me or them. Even if guns are removed, they'll find another means.

In the meantime, some of us actually *need* guns. For instance, I live about one hour from the nearest help...under normal-to-good circumstances. If the weather is bad or the county cop is on the other end of the county, it could be *much* longer. Are you suggesting that I should disarm myself and trust to luck?

[eqfan592]

14. Ahhh, smell the sweet projection! (nt)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

15. I'm glad I don't know any gun nuts.

[Euromutt]

29. I dont think my guns have nuts

Screws and roll pins, yes, but no nuts.

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. Wow, you have THE answer to terrorism: Take away guns and it'll go away!

And with them will go religious and political fanaticism, socioeconomic stress, mental illness, and just plain meanness.

Guns cloud the mind, according to another DUer.

The new Eden is at hand, if we but listen and obey...

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

18. Well said! +1000000

[rrneck]

19. Waaaaay more heat than light there.

[rl6214]

27. Can you show me one single gun owner

(I won't use the term gun nut because it's just plain STUPID) that is dancing in blood and screaming for more guns? Just one?

[spin]

40. Nuts are to blame for domestic terror...

as are drug gangs.

How do you define a "gun nut"?

[AusDem]

23. I beg to differ

its not about banning private possession of firearms, its STRICTLY regulating who can buy a gun and in what circumstance. We went through this whole process in Australia after a crazy massacre of 35 people at the hands of a troubled man.

Read this article, its like no-one in the states really cares about the huge toll on lives that indiscriminate sale and re-sale of guns:

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/americas-gun-outrage-276-people-killed-or-wounded-a-day-20091109-i4gj.html?autostart=1

That's more than the number of people that Grayson said die from lack of healthcare.

In the decade before tough gun laws were introduced, Australia had 11 mass shootings. In the decade after: 0

I'm still free, i have freedom, I haven't had to fight for it with a firearm.

The other telling comment "It doesn't help that Hasan simply walked into the Guns Galore shop in Killeen, Texas, and bought the gun he used, an FN Herstal Five-seveN, quite legally. According to the website, they sell for about $US1000 and are about the most murderous handgun it is possible to buy, designed to shred body armour and favoured by the Mexican drug cartels."

[Merchant Marine]

24. What tripe

The 5.7 is a glorified .22 magnum, which is a popular round for hunting squirrels. It sacrifices expansion for penetration, that is the designers decided that it would be better to make a small hole in armor than a big flat lump on it.

Its worth noting that the responding officer, Sgt. Munley, was shot 3 times and minorly wounded. Hassan was shot twice with a 9mm and is in critical condition. The 5.7 "Cop Killer" failed miserably to kill a cop in this case.

"Favored by Mexican Drug Cartels" What a load of sensationalist crap. Did they ask the cartels? And how exactly do you quantify "Most Murderous"? Cho killed more people with a 9mm and a .22lr.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. Keep eating the lies, hook line and sinker, with your ignorance.

The FN 5.7mm is not even CLOSE to the most 'lethal' handgun by ANY measure. Plus, only the armor-piercing ammo, which has been PROHIBITED for sale to the public since 1994, can penetrate body armor when fired from this pistol.

You cannot buy ANY ammo off the shelf that will penetrate body armor with this pistol. Period. Only military and law enforcement can purchase it.

[AusDem]

28. ok, i'll freely admit that I'm no gun expert

hence the reliance on a journalist that works for a generally reputed newspaper. I'd have to do my own research before I can argue that ONE point. I suppose I was taken in by the "sensational" aspect of it. But regardless of that, the point being made is not whether the particular gun used was more or less deadly, its whether the relatively lax gun laws in the states are on the whole worth it?

[Euromutt]

30. We tend to think so

The available evidence (not speculation, evidence) indicates that privately owned firearms in the U.S. are used more often to prevent crimes than to commit crimes. By a very conservative estimate--which acknowledging the inherent difficulty in estimating how often something didn't happen--defensive gun uses save more innocent lives than are taken in firearm homicides (many of which are organized crime hits, so its not exactly as if the victims are innocents).

In the overwhelming majority of DGUs, no shots are fired, so because essentially nothing happened, these stories are not newsworthy. And the amount of publicity given to mass shootings is not only well out of proportion to the percentage of overall homicides they represent, that same amount of publicity is also likely to engender more of these killings. There's no better way to become internationally famous than to murder someone famous or, failing that, senselessly murder a large number of non-famous people. Though when it is the publicity that is being sought and gained by the slaughter, then the killing strictly speaking ceases to be senseless, doesn't it?

[PavePusher]

32. "Journalists" are notoriously ignorant on any technical subject.

I believe the correct phrase here is "Caveat Emptor", if I'm remembering my Latin correctly.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. What aspect of the laws are 'lax'?

Hasan passed a background check, as you could expect any active duty military to do so.

What further restriction would have prevented this tragedy?

[taurus145]

37. Try this

Google Remington, Federal, Norma, Winchester, or ammunition manufacturers. Most have ballistics tables on their sites.

You can do your own research in about 10 minutes and prove the "journalist" doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground about firearms. Unless, he/she was simply promoting an anti-gun platform through false reporting.

[spin]

38. It's unfortunate but media reporters seem to have no more knowledge about firearms...

than you do.

OR - they do have much more knowledge than you but will purposefully lie or distort stories on firearms in order to push an agenda.

If the first possibility is true, it's quite plausible that media reporters and their bosses are incredibly lazy and refuse to learn the basic facts about a subject as simple as firearms. The issue has been in the new for years and a simple search of the internet would educate the average person let alone a competent reporter.

If so, it's difficult to trust any information you hear on news reports about far more complicated subjects such as the economy.

BUT if they are knowledgeable but chose to print false information, then you can not trust any article on any subject you read as being informed and reliable.

The most important of the amendments to our Constitution is the 1st which grants freedom of religion, of speech, of the press, to assemble, and to petition.

The second most important amendment is the 2nd which grants and enumerates the right to keep and bear arms. This right helps to preserve all the other rights in the Constitution.

Both the 1st and 2nd amendment involve serious responsibility. A free press should report the news and the facts in an informed manner without bias. Those who chose to exercise their right to own firearms should do so responsibly.

Our founding fathers expected no less.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

34. Beg all you want.

[spin]

39. The Five-seven is heavily hyped ...

But without the proper ammo it's no more then a glorified and slightly improved .22 magnum.

Ammunition

Particularly significant to the design of the Five-Seven is the 5.7x28mm cartridge created by FN for use in it. This cartridge weighs roughly half as much as a typical 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge,<19><20> allowing extra ammunition to be carried more easily. It also produces roughly 30% less recoil,<16><20> improving controllability.

One of the design intents of the SS190 variant of this cartridge (not sporting variants) was that it have the ability to penetrate Kevlar protection vests such as the NATO CRISAT vest.<16> In testing conducted by Passaic County, New Jersey Sheriff's Department, the SS190 penetrated 11 inches in bare ballistic gelatin, and penetrated 9 inches in gelatin protected with a Kevlar vest.<17> The SS190 and similar 5.7x28mm projectiles have been shown to yaw or "tumble" in testing in ballistic gelatin and other mediums,<16><17><21> using the .850 inch projectile length<9> to create a larger wound cavity. However, some are skeptical of the bullet's performance and question whether this behavior is sufficient to overcome the bullet's small diameter.<16>

Since the SS190 projectile does not rely on fragmentation or the expansion of a hollow point, FN claims the cartridge (and the Five-Seven) are suitable for military use under the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, which prohibit use of expanding or fragmenting bullets in warfare.

***snip***

Controversy

* The Five-Seven and 5.7x28mm ammunition were the target of brief controversy in the United States in 2004<16> when it was claimed by the Brady Campaign that commercially available SS192 penetrated a Level IIA vest in testing.<22> However, armor piercing variants of the 5.7x28mm are only offered to law enforcement and military customers.<23>Commercially available variants of the 5.7x28mm cartridge are classified by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) as being not armor piercing<24> and it was claimed that the SS192 and SS196 cartridge variants did not penetrate Kevlar vests in tests conducted by FNH USA.<24> emphasis added

* The Five-Seven pistol and 5.7x28mm cartridge were specifically targeted for a U.S. federal ban in 2005, which failed.<25>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven

As a handgun cartridge, the 5.7 round is an interesting concept. I have often recommended the .22 Winchester Magnum handgun to folks who write to me asking advice on a defensive handgun, when there are physical problems which do not allow the user to handle a cartridge with even moderate recoil, such as a .38 Special revolver or a 9mm pistol. The .22 Magnum penetrates better than a .38 Special in flesh, and the light recoil makes hitting the target repeatedly a lot easier than with a heavier-recoiling cartridge, for people who have weak hands or crippling arthritis. Even for those of us with normal strength in our hands and wrists, the .22 Magnum cartridge, fired from a hand gun, is a pretty good choice for many applications. The 5.7x28mm cartridge is very similar to the .22 Magnum cartridge in application, but offers even better performance.

http://www.gunblast.com/FN-FiveseveN.htm

The United States is not Australia. The cultures are far different. If you have had success in reducing massacres in your country, then you deserve congratulations. However, firearms and firearms ownership is part of our culture and while accurate estimates are hard to come by, there are possibly 80 million handgun owners in the U.S. owing somewhere around 300 million firearms. The founding fathers of our country gave citizens the right to own firearms. At the best any effort to ban or confiscate firearms in our nation would probably result in many or most owners refusing to turn their weapons in. At the worst, such an attempt would result in enormous bloodshed and a possible civil war. It could tear our country apart.

Do rely on news stories you read about firearms as they are often biased or totally inaccurate. Do some research or ask questions in the Gungeon. The pro-gun posters spend a lot of effort to correct media stories and we provide references to back our opinions up.

Please research any stories you read that originated with the Brady Campaign. Those folks love misinformation and deceit. While they may be trying to effect positive change, they seem to believe that the end justifies the means.

(But to be fair the NRA-ILA is no paragon of virtue.)

I have no problem with those who oppose gun ownership, I just wish they would take the time to learn a little about the subject and offer a challenge to debate. (No insult intended.)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

35. Unable to justify your own intent.