Illinois allows carry of firearms in car consoles!!! ....

[spin]

Nov 10, 2009 5:08 pm US/Central

Police Decry High Court Ruling On Guns In Cars

CHICAGO (CBS) ―

An Illinois Supreme Court ruling in October allows drivers to have an unloaded gun and an ammunition magazine in their glove box or arm rest console, holding state law allows someone to transport an unloaded gun in a vehicle if it's in a case.

***snip***

... The ruling indicates drivers may conceal guns and easy-to-load magazines of ammo in the arm rest console, where they can lock and load in a matter of moments, introducing a new element of danger to routine traffic stops.

***snip***

Before the Illinois Supreme Court's ruling, drivers who carried even an unloaded gun in the glove compartment or arm rest console were subject to a felony charge of unlawful use of a weapon.

Cook County State's Attorney Anita Alvarez said she was flabbergasted. She said she wants the General Assembly to rewrite the law to require that, if guns and bullets are in a vehicle, they're far away from the driver, who might be tempted in the event of road rage.

***snip***

The heart of the Illinois Supreme Court's ruling is that a container is a container and the law permits someone to transport an unloaded gun in their vehicle if the gun is stored in a case. The ruling held that a case includes a car's glove compartment or arm rest console.


An Illinois Supreme Court ruling in October allows drivers to have an unloaded gun and an ammunition magazine in their glove box or arm rest console, holding state law allows someone to transport an unloaded gun in a vehicle if it's in a case.
http://cbs2chicago.com/politics/guns.in.cars.2.1304326.html

[beevul]

1. Oh man...

Daley muct be going ballistic...

[onehandle]

2. Good. When you Really get a bad case of road rage, the solution will be within arms reach.

'You kids quiet down back there or I'll put a cap in your ass.'

[eqfan592]

7. Yep, because having a gun near by...

...turns everybody into psychopathic killers! OH yeah, that's not reality. Only a total idiot would think that. Seriously man, didn't you meet your quota for stupid ass posts with the NRA one tonight?

*Edited to tone it down a bit by me.*

[Old Codger]

10. LOL

In Oregon any citizen can carry loaded in plain sight on the seat next to them.. never ever heard of ANY road rage incidents... Anyone who makes those accusations has no real feel for the reality of the situation, a very very many guns are already out in vehicles and the road rage syndrome just doesn't seem to manifest very often.

[spin]

16. To people who are unfamiliar with states who allow citizens to carry in cars...

it's not unreasonable to believe that all sorts of shootings will occur if t becomes legal in their state.

It goes against logic, but in reality it's extremely rare to see firearms carried in cars being misused.

[eqfan592]

40. 10 or 15 years ago, I may have agreed with you.

But now, with so many states allowing it, and so much data available, a person has to almost go out of their way to make such an assumption as this, because the data is out there to show that these upswings in violence and "road rage" shooting incidents just don't happen simply because people are allowed to carry in their cars.

There's just really no excuse for somebody to not look at the data that is readily available and just jump to conclusions as onehandle did.

[spin]

52. The problem is that all too often people get their info...

from the Brady Campaign or the local news media.

I have heard people spout information from a "reliable news source" that was totally false and was a fabricated lie designed to push an agenda.

[eqfan592]

60. Yeah, good point spin.

I sometimes forget that not everybody is willing to spend the time to independently research these issues. I stand corrected, then.

[spin]

8. Maybe people from Illinois are different from those in Florida...

but legal loaded firearms are common in cars in this state.

We don't seem to have any major problems.

[Electric Monk]

22. "We don't seem to have any major problems." Ever watched COPS?

and fark.com has a special FLORIDA tag why?

[spin]

51. So allowing honest citizens to carry a firearm in their car in your state...

should be even safer. Your rules say the weapon has to be unloaded and would require an extra step before use compared to Florida. We can keep our weapons loaded in the car.

[rl6214]

21. I always have a gun within arms reach when in my car

I haven't shot anyone yet and I've been doing it for years.

Don't be so dramatic about it, it's not going to happen.

[cognoscere]

55. Same here.

Never even had my hand on it, although with two separate rageholes, had I been stuck with them in traffic, or otherwise stopped, it probably wouldn't have turned out good for either side.

[slackmaster]

33. Sounds like projection to me - Counseling can help with road rage problems

How often do you get a bad case of road rage, onehandle? I haven't even had a mild case of it in over 20 years. I used to have that problem, but mellowing with age plus a little help from a psychologist stopped it cold one day, actually in the blink of an eye. Really, a wise and empathetic man helped me cure myself by uttering a single sentence which I will be happy to share with you if you ask. It's a simple bit of wisdom that led to a significant change in the way I look at not only other drivers, but other people in general.

The purpose of driving is to get from one place to another safely no matter what happens along the way. A good driver rolls with the punches and doesn't lose his or her cool when another driver is out of control or is acting juvenile.

I think you are afraid that you would lose it and shoot someone who crossed you on the road, if only you had a gun handy. You may believe that not having a gun is the only thing keeping you from going on a murderous rampage at the slightest provocation, and you may be right. That's your problem, it's a potentially deadly one to yourself and perhaps others, and in your case not carrying a gun is probably a wise policy.

The first step to a solution for that kind of problem is admitting that you have it. I wish you the best of luck with yours.

'You kids quiet down back there or I'll put a cap in your ass.'

The correct expression is "bust a cap in your ass" BTW.

[cognoscere]

56. So what is that simple bit of wisdom? n/t

[slackmaster]

64. OK, and please pardon me if it seems anti-climactic (it was profound to me at age 31)

The people on the road who tailgate you, pass you on the right, go slow in the fast lane, cut you off, don't use their turn signals, yell at you, throw things at you, flip you off; we have a word for them: They're ASSHOLES.

The last thing you should want to do is engage assholes, because that will only provoke them and escalate the situation. It also makes you an asshole.

The right way to respond to assholes is to put as much pavement as possible between you and them. You'll keep yourself safe, you'll keep yourself out of trouble, and once you teach yourself to always respond to assholes in that way, you will be a calmer, happier person.

[spin]

66. When I started carrying a firearm in my car....

I suddenly became more polite and stopped giving the drivers you correctly call "assholes" the finger.

I also stopped flipping on my lights to make the tailgater think I had hit my brakes and when he was wise to that trick, to downshift into a lower gear to decelerate and punching the accelerator pedal just before he slammed into me. I also stopped speeding up to pass them and cutting in front of them with only inches to spare.

Looking back, I was a very aggressive asshole before I put that firearm in the glove box.

Perhaps there is some truth in the statement, "An armed society is a polite society".

[taurus145]

57. Wouldn't you just

sic Unit 7 on 'em?

[slackmaster]

68. I believe you mean Unit 3, and he's hiding in his Ammo Fort right now

He knows it's time for his medicine and he doesn't want to take it.

[taurus145]

71. Oops!

I'm always getting names wrong.

If I couldn't call Ol' Whatshername "Honey", I'd be sleeping on the sofa.

[GreenStormCloud]

42. Hasn't caused any problems in Texas.

Here we can carry loaded guns, concealed in the car, even if the person doesn't have a CHL. None of the claimed problems have happened.

[AtheistCrusader]

47. And what do you do when the OTHER guy is a road-rager?

Someone comes at me with a tyre iron, I'm not going to go get my tyre iron, I'm going to get my gun.

Getting beat to death by some raging asshole doesn't sound like a good way to end my day.

Edit: Also, this is already the law of the land in Washington State, and has been for decades. We DO have an occasional road rage incident involving a firearm, but they are extremely rare.

[madrchsod]

3. this is`t going to turn out well......

[spin]

5. Why? (n/t)

[madrchsod]

11. the cops are going to freak...

i live in a city of around 20,000 where the cops usually use at least two or three cars to pull someone over that looks suspicious. now they will have guns at ready for just about any stop. the big cities/urban areas will be even worse....

[eqfan592]

12. Ummmm, we don't even allow what's in the OP in wisoncsin...

...at all, and the cops ALWAYS approach a vehicle with extreme caution, typically with their hand very near or on their firearm, ready to draw (at least this has been my experience the few times I've been pulled over in my lifetime). With or without this law, a criminal could be keeping a firearm in their car. Every cop knows this. This law doesn't change anything in that respect.

[cognoscere]

53. I think it kind of depends.

Like, if some asshole has called the cops and told them your car was stolen, then they both get out of the car and come at you from both sides with their hands on the weapons. (when they found out that I owned the car, they were a lot pissed - at whomever called it in) If it's just a stop for a burned out light, not so much. But, as you've probably already seen on the news, the Milwaukee police have an entirely different view of "to protect and serve" insofar as they tend to protect themselves by serving up some hot lead to even the slightest threat, whether real or perceived.

[eqfan592]

61. Oh yeah, lot's of hot lead.

And yeah, I'm sure it's a bit different from situation to situation, and from cop to cop. But ultimately, a law isn't going to prevent a criminal from keeping a gun in their car, so cops already have to be cautions at least to some extent, and that was my main point. Are you from Wisconsin as well?

[cognoscere]

69. Yes, even though my profile says Chicago -

don't really remember why I set it up like that. You're right though, any law to restrict guns will be ignored by criminals. I was in a citizen police academy(highly recommend the experience) a few years ago and to a man/woman they agreed that next to domestic disturbance calls, traffic stops were the most dangerous and they acted accordingly. That doesn't mean they think every one is going to end in a shootout - more along the lines of they are prepared for the worst and are grateful when the preparation turns out to be unneeded.

[spin]

14. I live in Florida where firearms in cars is common and many citizens carry legally..

I also personally know many police officers.

The local police have no problem with honest citizens having firearms in their vehicles or those who have a license carrying concealed. When asked, the police officers have told me that they have never had any serious problems with a concealed weapons permit holder and rarely have problems with other honest citizens with firearms in their car. They do have problems with criminals who are armed.

But we have allowed citizens to carry in their cars and have have concealed carry permits for many years.

It make take a while for the average street cop in Illinois to realize that not all people with firearms are criminals or will suddenly turn into one if stopped on the road.

Five years down the road they might feel the same as cops in Florida.

[Old Codger]

41. Same here

I have talked with many police here in Oregon and they actually feel much safer when they call in to check a license plate before pulling someone over and are told that person has a CW permit, they know that this person has been background checked and is probably not a criminal... ALL police when approaching a car are alert to ANY movement taking place in that car and will have their hands close to their weapon almost always and are prepared to defend themselves instantly... The poster who based their judgment on watching "Cops" on TV needs to remember that that is a put together TV program and has many many incidences shown but their is no time line indicate as to how long it took to find all of these incidences...Anyone can look up stats on this if they care to take the time to be informed of reality.

[Euromutt]

23. Because criminals would ordinarily never keep a gun within reach, right?

This isn't a repeal of the law of physics. It was already physically possible for someone engaged in criminal activity, possibly with a few outstanding warrants (the kind of person most likely to take a shot at a police officer, I think we'll agree) to have a loaded handgun on the seat beside them, and the cops would be crazy if they didn't already take that possibility into account. As far as potential threats to LEOs go, this changes nothing.

[slackmaster]

36. Cops already have guns handy when they pull someone over

Not only that, but by time they get out of their police cars they already know all kinds of things about the registered owner of a vehicle they have pulled over: Wants and warrants, criminal record, expired registration and other DMV issues, and whether or not the person has a concealed weapons permit. In Illinois I would bet that the cop knows whether or not the person has ever had a state Firearms Owners ID (FOID) card.

[PavePusher]

38. They seem to deal with it quite well...

IN EVERY OTHER STATE IT'S ALLOWED.

Or are you saying your police are poorly trained, poorly screened and outright incompetent?

[GreenStormCloud]

43. Hasn't happened that way in Texas.

We have some rather large cities here too. Dallas-Ft. Worth, Houston, El Paso, Amarillo, San Antonio, Austin, Corpus Christi, Brownsville, Galveston, and other.

And lots and lots of small towns too.

If it hasn't been a problem for us, why should it be a problem for you?

[AtheistCrusader]

48. If they do, they need some training.

This is already the law in many states, including Washington.

I had an officer disarm me once, because the door asshole at Fry's accused me of shoplifting. It's no big deal. He took the gun, interviewed me, gave me the gun back and sent me on my way.

No harm, no foul. Well, I was pretty pissed at the asshole from Fry's. But that's a different story.

[taurus145]

54. Probably not

Cops know very well that it's not the law-abiding gun owner that they have to fear.

Nope. Not a cop, but I have worked very closely with them for many years.

[HALO141]

58. If that's the case

then they need to be disarmed in the interests of public safety.

[X_Digger]

4. Well, a container is a container..

If a 'container' wasn't defined, then a tupperware container sitting on the center console would qualify as well as the console or glove box.

Now if they'd specified 'locked' container.. some glove boxes and center consoles would still apply :)

[spin]

6. Does anyone from Chicago know how this effects your city? (n/t)

[armueller2001]

25. It won't affect Chicago at all.

Handguns have been banned since the mid 1980's. Of course, those laws don't affect criminals, they'll just keep them in their cars or carry them anyway.

[spin]

65. Thanks, that is what I assumed. Sad, very sad. (n/t)

[DonP]

46. I'm confused ...

Chicago already bans handguns and I'd have a hard time fitting an M1 Garand in my center console.

I can't understand why our idiot law enforcement team, with such a sterling track record for honesty and race relations, would be concerned - since they know that no one can have a handgun, except for the Mayor's pet aldermen and his and his family's personal security detail, and anyone else he grants permission to.

[Endangered Specie]

9. Sooner or later the US govt needs to step up and shove common sense gun laws

down Illinois' throat.

National CCW, force them to get with the times.

[doc03]

13. I can carry a loaded CCW in my console in Ohio

I have had a CCW permit for a couple months haven't carried a CCW yet probably never will.

[spin]

15. While you probably will never need to use a concealed firearm...

but how do you know?

I asked a concealed carry permit holder who ALWAYS carried why he did so. (He owned his own business and carried a full size SIG while at work.)

His reply was that he didn't have a calendar on his wall or in his computer to remind him that on any given day, he should carry his weapon as he would need it.

The range master, who was a retired police officer, often told me that all concealed carry permit holders should carry. His argument was that the law was passed to reduce crime. It might just work if everybody with a permit carried.

Now I really don't care if you do or not. But two questions...

1) If you were not carrying and you were attacked and hurt, possibly crippled and in a wheel chair for the rest of your life, how would you feel? (Obviously, you could be killed but then the question would be irrelevant.)

2) If you were not carrying and you found yourself in a situation where you could have used your weapon to save other lives, how could you look at yourself in the mirror. Say you were in a dinner and some nut started shooting people and was close enough for you to shoot and possibly slow down or stop his killing spree.

[doc03]

17. Sorry I just don't see the need to carry a gun

First of all to carry a concealed weapon is just plain uncomfortable and I don't want that responsibility. If someone breaks into my house I will shoot them. I may possibly carry a gun someday in my car if I go out fishing by myself in some remote area but just don't have any desire to carry a gun.

[eqfan592]

18. I respect your choice there.

And I think spin does as well, though I won't speak for him. But I have to be honest. If I knew that I had the opportunity to carry, and if the need were ever to arise where I needed it and I failed to have it on me, I might have a damned hard time forgiving myself after.

[spin]

19. I have to agree that concealed firearms are uncomfortable...

and I respect your opinion. A lot depends on where you live.

Still you have the permit and if for some reason you ever need to carry concealed - you can.

[slackmaster]

37. Try a US military M7 side holster

They're very comfortable. I just learned about them this weekend. The weight of the gun is on your shoulder rather than your belt, and there is nothing pulling your pants down or interfering wtih wearing a seat belt.

[spin]

50. That does look like it would do the trick, thanks. (n/t)

[one-eyed fat man]

59. Several generations

of tank crewman and pilots have used the M7 holster and its predecessor, the M3 to keep an M1911 out of the way, yet with them. I still have a well-used one from back in the day. They still make a good holster on the tractor, a four-wheeler, anyplace where concealment is not a factor but utility is.

[GreenStormCloud]

44. Uncomfortable? Try a different sized gun and holster.

I carry all the time and it is quite comfortable.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

49. I originall got my OH CCW to just "keep a gun in the glovebox"

I only had a 1911 at the time. Not the smallest or lightest to actually carry.
Plus, the early OH CCW legislation was even mroe restrictive.
Then I got a Glock 19 and an LCP along the way somewhere and life changed.

The G19 is much lighter/smaller than my .45 and pretty comfortable to carry.
But it still stayed in the car about 50% of the time. They do make smaller glocks though.
Ugly gun, great function though.

But the LCP... oh my! Literally, it's a pocket gun. The LCP has a little square holster and is more comfortable to carry than my wallet. Front pocket, side pocket, back pocket, vest, coat... it goes ANYWHERE and is very light. To all people w/ a CCW, I reccomend trying an LCP or airweight revolver. It's so light, that even when I'm wearing the glock, I toss the LCP in my jacket pocket anyways. At under $300, it's becoming one of my most essential pistols. The ONLY downside is you could never attach a silencer to it.

[eqfan592]

63. You can also get little pocket pistols from Kel Tec.

They are around the same pricing point as a Ruger LCP, and come in .32 auto, .380 auto, and 9mm options. I have no personal experience with them, but I've heard a lot of great things about them. WHEN we finally get CCW in Wisconsin, I'll likely be carrying one of these.

[spin]

70. Like you, I got the carry permit because I had a gun in my love box...

A co-worker with a concealed carry permit talked me into getting one. His argument was that if I were to be stopped by the police when I was on my way to work late at night, I could hand the officer my license and my carry permit. The officer would be far less worried about the fact that I had a firearm in the car. (Note, carrying a loaded firearm in a car does not require a permit in my state.

And like you I tried to carry a full sized Colt .45 auto. I then purchased a mid sized Beretta Centurion .40 cal. I purchased a good shoulder holster rig and found this firearm easy to carry. The problem was putting the shoulder holster rig on. It wasn't difficult, but it was a pain in the ass. Often the gun stayed behind.

So I decided to buy something light. I picked a S&W Model 64 .38 +P revolver. I found this very light revolver solved my problems. When I want to go somewhere, I simple grab the revolver and its pocket holster. I place them in my right front pants pocket and a speed loader in my other front pocket and off I go.

My son-in-law seen advertisements for the Ruger LCP and after a long wait, I provided the money and he bought one. His carry weapon before that was a Glock 27 40 cal. He could drop it into his pocket but found it a little heavy and irritating to carry. He loves his Ruger LCP.

[ChicagoSuz219]

20. Oh, good... now they can steal something besides your radio! nt

[armueller2001]

28. The previous Illinois law states

that a handgun has to be unloaded and in a case. In cities other than Chicago (where legal handguns are banned), I follow the law by keeping my firearm in a zipper case under my seat, with the magazine out. Now the court has ruled that a center console can be included in the definition of a "case." How is this any more or less dangerous than keeping a handgun and magazine in a zipper case under the seat?

NOTHING WILL CHANGE. Criminals will still continue to own and carry firearms illegally. Law abiding citizens will continue to follow the law.

How god damn ignorant can people be? They act like this minor clarification of what constitutes a "case" is going to be the end of the world!! OH MY GOD THERE'S GOING TO BE BLOOD IN THE STREETS!!! Nevermind the fact that citizens can carry guns on their person virtually everywhere in 48 states, with no problems.

[ChicagoSuz219]

67. I hope you're just ranting...

...& those comments weren't directed at me, personally.

[usregimechange]

24. The right to drive by law?

[pipoman]

27. Uh, the right to keep and bear arms law...AKA 2nd Amendment..

[armueller2001]

29. How does this have anything to do with drive bys?

[SteveM]

31. I've been "driving by" for years, don't need a law (nt)

[slackmaster]

34. No, driving on public roads is still a privilege

HTH

[PavePusher]

39. Try not to be an asshole.

Try hard.

[DonP]

45. Ironically, but not surprising, a "drive by" poster...

making a post about "Drive bys" ... who shows up, knows little or nothing about the actual subject but has a really "neat" bumper sticker level of insight to add to the serious discussion. Then, when no one notices or appreciates their brilliant wit, they never come back.

[pipoman]

26. Jez..

people don't still believe this crap do they?

introducing a new element of danger to routine traffic stops.

-snip-

...if guns and bullets are in a vehicle, they're far away from the driver, who might be tempted in the event of road rage.

It's time for IL to recognize that their fear is irrational based on every model in the US today.

And what's up with this (from the article):

The NRA's next move will be to push for a "concealed carry" law allowing someone to carry an unloaded weapon on their body if it is stored in a fanny pack or other carrying case.

An unloaded weapon? Why?

[TheWraith]

35. An unloaded weapon because Illinois bans all concealed carry.

They still subscribe to the discredited belief that allowing people to legally carry guns means blood running in the streets.

[JonQ]

72. The absolute irrational paranoia surrounding guns from the left

is alot like the absolute irrational paranoia surrounding gay marriage from the right, or pornography, or violent videogames (both sides on that one).

They are absolutely certain that if you allow these things to fall in to the hands of adults then absolute chaos will break out and it will bring about the end of days.

When legalized and nothing happens, the situation if anything improves, they will still claim that its coming, then ignore you and any further facts.

[one-eyed fat man]

30. Just goes to show

that sometimes even lawyers get it right and read what it says.

Where is all the hand wringing from the Cook county DA on all the poor chumps who went downstate before this appeal? Real thugs in Cook county, like most decayed urban areas, are almost never prosecuted on gun charges. It'd be some poor schmuck from out of state stopped on the Ryan who gets railroaded for a .38 in the glovebox.

And as far as routine stops go, by any police agency bigger than Mayberry, when the cop stops your car and punches in your plate, he already knows who you are supposed to be, if your driver's license is suspended or revoked; the tags and registration are current; plus any wants, warrants or priors and in EVERY state that issues CCW, if you have a CCW, BEFORE he even gets out of the car.

[slackmaster]

32. "...a new element of danger to routine traffic stops" my ass

This ruling isn't going to make any difference to individuals who are actually dangerous to a cop who pulls them over. That kind of person already doesn't obey laws or follow rules.

[JonQ]

73. That argument assumes

that what is stopping people inclined to shoot cops over a traffic ticket is a poorly enforced ban on keeping unloaded guns in your car.

Somehow I think that isn't the limiting factor.

[aikoaiko]

62. We should brace ourselves for the responses from anti-rkba politicians and activists

I predict much of the following:

[happyslug]

74. The actual opinion:

http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinions/SupremeCourt/2009/October/106367.pdf