Groups Urge Obama to Ban Armor-Piercing Gun Used at Fort Hood

[spin]

WASHINGTON -- In a letter sent today to the White House, America’s six national gun violence prevention (GVP) organizations–the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, Violence Policy Center, Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, Freedom States Alliance, Legal Community Against Violence, and States United to Prevent Gun Violence–as well as 21 state and regional GVP groups strongly urged President Barack Obama to use his executive powers to ban the import into the U.S. of the FN Herstal Five-seveN armor-piercing semiautomatic pistol.

A Five-seveN was used in the Fort Hood attack earlier this month that left 13 dead and 34 wounded. The Belgian-made weapon, widely available on the U.S. civilian market, is also a favorite of Mexican Drug Trafficking Organizations (DTOs), who refer to it as the “mata policia,” or “cop killer.”

In the letter, the 27 organizations state:

“While we urge you to join us in pushing for other much-needed policy changes to help reduce America’s epidemic of gun violence that were also relevant to the Fort Hood shooting, such as gaps in the federal background check system that allow suspected terrorists to legally buy guns and the ready availability of high-capacity magazines (including the 20-round magazines used by the Fort Hood shooter), preventing the importation of any more Five-seveN handguns is an important step that can be accomplished immediately through administrative action by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF)–without the need for any action by Congress.

“Under longstanding federal law, ATF has the clear authority to prohibit the importation of any firearm or ammunition unless it is ‘generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.’ This provision of the 1968 Gun Control Act has historically been used to exclude from import many non-sporting firearms, including so-called ‘Saturday Night Special’ handguns, ‘Street Sweeper’ shotguns, and many foreign-made assault weapons. The FN Five-seveN handgun is clearly the type of firearm to which Congress intended the import restrictions to apply.”
http://www.opposingviews.com/articles/opinion-groups-urge-obama-to-ban-armor-piercing-gun-used-at-fort-hood-r-1258658558

[derby378]

1. Somebody PLEASE call the waaaahhmbulance

A pistol, by itself, is NOT considered "armor-piercing." Only the bullets are considered AP, and AP rounds for pistols (and some rifles) have been banned from the civilian market since 1994.

How many times do we have to explain this? :grr:

[Orrex]

2. You don't know what you're talking about. A pistol is most certainly armor-piercing.

You just have to throw it really, really hard.

[derby378]

3. Do you have the video for such a demonstration?

Or do I need to toss a Five-seveN into a EF3 tornado and see if it will hurl the pistol at 1-inch steel plate? :rofl:

[Orrex]

4. No video, but we did a lab on it in my high school physics class

Honest!

[derby378]

6. Saaaa-LUTE!

:toast:

[Travis_0004]

5. The FN Five Seven Armor piercing round is NOT AVAILABLE in the US!

There is not one spot in america where you can buy armor piercing rounds for the 5.7.

You would have to acquire them illegally. I am willing to bet the fort hood shooter did not use armor piercing rounds.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm

(Keep in mind, my link is from the ATF, an organazation is probably more biased against guns than for them, and would have every reason to post accurate information if their test proved that the round was more lethal.

The 5.7x28 rounds was stopped by level IIIa bullet proof vest, as would be 9mm, .40, .45. A vest of that size probably wouldn't stop a single rifle bullet, short of .22LR.

[derby378]

8. I know...

...the only way you can legally buy AP rounds for the Five-seveN (and the local legal experts may have some comments about this) is if I find a private gun owner who purchased his AP rounds before 1994, and if he's willing to sell them, and if I'm willing to pay the exorbitant price he's going to ask for those AP pistol rounds. Considering when the Five-seveN was actually put on sale for the first time, that's darned near impossible.

We're just taking a ridiculous situation and making it even more so, that's all. :hi:

[Travis_0004]

9. Sorry, that reply wasn't meant towards you.

The reply was a response to the original post, but I happened to be on your post when I hit reply.

I think you are very reasonable when it comes to Guns, and I agree with almost all of your post.

[Euromutt]

15. I doubt even that scenario is possible

For the very simple reason that FN won't sell, or allow sub-contracting manufacturers to sell the SS190 round to anyone except government agencies. So any private citizen in possession of SS190s would have had to buy them from a law enforcement agency, which would have had to buy the ammunition the year it came out, and immediately resold it.

[GreenStormCloud]

25. Well, you could make your own. Very illegal, worth some years in a federal prison.

But not too hard to do. Can be made in any caliber.

[pocoloco]

11. repugs stirring up shit!

Sure way to pick up a bunch of votes!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. Brady Bunch are Repukes?

If the Obama does anything with this request the Repukes will indeed pickup votes.

[Euromutt]

17. For all practical purposes, yes they are

Helmke, the organization's president, is a long-standing Republican, and the Bradies themselves were assuredly Republicans to James getting shot (he was Reagan's press secretary at the time, after all), after which Sarah, at least, is known to have become an Independent, but not a Democrat, which suggests that gun control is the primary issue on which she diverges from the GOP.

And since the Brady Campaign doesn't have any actual members, you can't deduce anything about the organization's position on the basis of the members' political affiliations.

[krispos42]

16. Unit 42 on scene...

Somebody need a binkie?

:-)

[bluestateguy]

7. It's a military base

Those places tend to have a lot of guns, or so I have heard.

Scarcely do these gun grabber groups miss a chance to chase the ambulance for cheap political points when a tragedy like this happens.

[PavePusher]

19. Most of which are under lock and key at all times...

and thus rather poorly suited for self-defense.

[doc03]

10. There is no such thing as armor-piercing pistol. There

is armor-piercing ammo but it is not available to the general public. That pistol with available ammunition doesn't have a lot of knockdown power actually not much more than a 22 Magnum rim fire. But the gun grabbers never let facts get in their way, this was predictable every time some nut shoots someone it is the gun's fault. If it wasn't for PC there were lots of red flags on this character that should have alerted someone.

[benEzra]

12. Except that it's no more "armor piercing" than an ordinary .357.

But don't let silly things like facts get in the way of a good scarefest.

[slackmaster]

18. They'll call for banning the .357 next

No doubt.

[spin]

13. The Brady Campaign and the other anti-gun groups never learn from their mistakes...

True, they may get a slight increase in donations but in the end run they will make the FN Herstal Five-seveN a far more popular firearm than it ever was. The price of the weapon will skyrocket and instead of being a relatively rare curiosity, it will become a far more common weapon.

When the anti-gun groups hyped semi-auto "assault weapons" sales increased dramatically. Suddenly a high percentage of shooters ran out to buy one. The Assault Weapons ban was a total fiasco. Manufacturers merely changed the cosmetic appearance of their products and they sold like hot cakes.

I'm a rare exception to the craze to buy an assault weapon. The semi-auto handguns I own have less than 10 rounds in their magazines. The one rifle I own is a bolt action 6.5 X .55 Swedish Mauser that hold 5 rounds. The one shotgun I own is a 12 gauge side by side coach gun. Two rounds and I have to reload. My carry weapons are 5 shot revolvers. Do I feel that I'm at a disadvantage in case of a Zombie attack. No.

But while I personally see little need for a high capacity weapon, I can understand why others do. Certain firearms gain popularity because of advertising or hype by the anti-gun crowd. I remember the S&W .44 magnum craze that happened after the Dirty Harry movies hit the screen. Years later, after the craze ended, I bought a .44 magnum. True it's a powerful weapon but I find it fun and challenging to shoot. Shooting it did what I hoped. I learned how to handle the recoil of a .45 auto.

I may buy a "assault weapon" in the future. I like the looks of a AR rifle and I might buy one in .308. It would make a fine hunting rife if I decided to take up that sport. Currently, I see no real need and I wouldn't feel that it would be an important item to add to my firearms collection. But that's me. Others feel differently.

I have seen one FN Herstal Five-seveN that belonged to a police officer. He was proud of it and said he enjoyed shooting it.

But the anti-gun crowd will push as hard as they can to ban the Five-SeveN. The commotion they stir up will just cause a repeat of the increase in assault weapons sales that has happened since Obama's election. The NRA will use the Five-SeveN controversy to increase their donations. Gun owners, believing that the Democratic Parry is anti-gun will show up at the polls at the mid-term to vote for the supposedly pro-gun Republicans.

Sometimes I wonder if the people who run the anti-gun groups have large amounts of money invested in gun manufacturers stock. If they do, they have probably made a killing on their investment since Obama took office.

[benEzra]

20. As I recall, the gun-ban lobby helped launch the Glock in this country as well...

back in the late '80s. A number of them bleated from the housetops about the new "plastic gun" that was undetectable by airport metal detectors, and called it "a gun only terrorists could love." Which was utter BS, since most of a Glock's mass is steel (including the entire slide, barrel, and most of the firing mechanism), but the publicity got people to notice the innovative new handgun, and as word of its reliability and durability got out, police departments and ordinary citizens alike started adopting it in droves. It quickly became the single most popular handgun in the United States---a lot sooner than it probably otherwise would.

As another example, I believe California's ban on .50 caliber rifles, and the ".50 Caliber Terrah" BS nationwide, probably increased sales of .50 BMG target rifles tenfold.

I guess the Brady Campaign wants to shift the gun market toward FiveSevens now...

[spin]

21. I remember the Glock plastic gun promotion well...

Anti-gun groups babbled bullshit and promoted fear so well that made it to the nightly news on a regular basis.

The guns were supposedly made of plastic and no airport x-ray machine would detect it.

The gun which started all of this nonsense is the Austrian made Glock 17. It is a semi-automatic 9 mm pistol which is 83% steel by weight (19 ounces). The lower half of the pistol, the receiver, is mostly a polymer material. This results in a durable, lightweight pistol. Even though the pistol has a large amount of polymer in its construction, it still looks like a pistol under airport x-ray equipment. Astrophysics Research Corp., the world's largest manufacturer of x-ray security screening equipment and the manufacturer of the units currently used at over 90% of U.S. airports, in a response to Representative Mario Biaggi (D-NY) stated, "Fully assembled, the Glock 17 looks exactly like any other automatic pistol when viewed on the television monitor of our Linescan airport x-ray security machine. Further, it causes our Mark 100 Metal Detector to alarm at the normal setting just as any other pistol does. When the Glock 17 is broken down into its three basic components...all three components are still visible and identifiable on the television monitor of the x-ray system by a trained security operator. In all tests, the Glock 17 was x-rayed while inside a standard briefcase with a normal amount of paper (approximately 1" thick) and other items usually found in a briefcase. Even the plastic frame shows clearly.
http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/plastic_gun.HTM

I remember how I felt at the time. I was all for banning the Glock until I saw a picture of what it looked like in a briefcase passing through a X-ray scanner. I felt I had been lied to by politicians I had trusted. And I was right!

[benEzra]

22. Yup.

And then that BS was further transmogrified by Hollywood, gun experts that they are:

That punk pulled a GLOCK 7 on me. You know what that is? It’s a porcelain gun made in Germany. It doesn’t show up on your airport X-ray machines, and it costs more than you make here in a month. --Bruce Willis, Die Hard 2

...which then filtered its way to various street-level gun experts:

SCHERERVILLE -- It sounds like something out of a "Police Academy" movie.

Cook County correctional officer Jermaine Bell, 36, of Lynwood, Ill., was at the Schererville Golf and Fun Center with his son late Sunday when he took out his gun and accidentally fired it into the ground.

Schererville police responded to the scene at 10:11 p.m. Bell told them he was trying to put the safety on when he accidentally fired the weapon. Bell showed police his Cook County officer's badge, and said he was carrying a Glock 7 handgun.

But Cmdr. Randy Reno of the Schererville Police Department said a Glock doesn't have an external safety switch. And a Glock 7 isn't even a real gun. It's a fictitious, porcelain gun-type fabricated for the 1990 action movie "Die Hard 2."

:rofl:

[PavePusher]

23. Mistake #1:

"I felt I had been lied to by politicians I had trusted."

Do not trust politicos, even if they appear to be on your side!

"Eternal vigilance...", etc.

How to tell if a politician is lying:
A. Their lips are moving.
B. They have a pulse.
C. They are less than 6 feet underground.

[spin]

24. I learn from mistakes...

Remember this controversy happened during the late eighties.

[PavePusher]

27. Just pulling your leg.

I made a mistake once, too.

Never done that again...

:evilgrin:

[spin]

28. Along the way...

I learned to never trust a used car salesman or a politician.

[GreenStormCloud]

26. I do see a reason for high-capacity magazines in self-defence.

I carry a S&W 642 as my primary carry weapon. Spin knows what it is, but for anybody who may not, it is a small, five-shot, .38 revolver. I also carry a Bersa .380 with an extended magazine (9 + 1) and an extra mag or two.

The old self-defense doctrine was to fire two rapid shots at the center of mass, pause to evaluate and check for other threats, repeat as needed. The new doctrine is to fire rapidly at center of mass until the threat is neutralized, reload, then check for other threats. The exception is if you start out with multiple threats, then you drop back to fast double taps. Anyway, it is easily possible to unload a bunch of shots into a bad-guy before he falls down. There have been cases posted here on DU in which a defender emptied a magazine into an attacker. Should I ever have to defend myself, I can easily see how five rounds could be fired into one goblin before he fell over.

[spin]

29. Very true...

I carry the S&W 642 95% of the time as it is easy to carry and draw from my front pants pocket. Since I live in Florida, it's hard to carry a larger weapon such as a .45 auto as you have to pick different clothing to cover the weapon and often your attire looks out of place in the summer heat. It's a dead giveaway that you are packing to experienced and observant people. The cops are no problem, all the locals know I have a carry permit and have no problem with legal carry. The bad guys are a different matter. I don't like to advertise the fact that I have a firearm as it makes me a target. Plus I can draw my weapon faster from my pocket than I can from an inside the waist band holster under a shirt.

My model 642 is loaded with 38+P rounds designed to be effective in a snub nosed revolver. Still, it may take five shots to stop an attack. Revolvers do not reload as fast as a semi-auto. True, I carry a speed loader. A speed loader works but it would be easy to fumble it in a fire fight.

In the winter months, I sometimes carry a S&W Model 60 .357 five shot revolver in an inside the waist band holster under a jacket. I don't look out of place and the weapon is definitely a better man stopper.

I carry because a person can never predict when a bad situation might occur. I'm not paranoid and I avoid places where I might be exposed to danger. I doubt and hope that I never find myself in a situation where I might have to use my weapon. Still any gun is better than no gun in an encounter where you may be seriously injured or killed. If I was caught by surprise, a revolver is very easy to use. Pull the trigger and it makes a loud noise, if that fails just pull the trigger again. Semi auto pistols have a far more complicated procedure to follow if you have a misfire or a jam.

If I expected trouble if I were to go somewhere, I just would not go there. If there was no choice, I would probably carry both the S&W 642 and a Colt .45 auto. I might also have a 12 gauge coach gun in my car.

[GreenStormCloud]

30. We think pretty much alike. N/T

[taurus145]

31. .45 Millennium Pro, 2 extra mags

With one up the pipe to start, that's 31 rounds available. Add the Kel Tec 380 in a pocket rig with a couple extra mags and I've got 19 extra piss 'em off rounds available.