MI Militiamen insist they're just ordinary folks with guns and a deep paranoia about the government

[onehandle]

It's not news to regular C&L readers that militias are forming again in rural areas, a reality confirmed this summer by the SPLC. It's deja vu all over again. And just as they did in the '90s, they're all insisting they really are just sincere patriots concerned about the looming tyranny of the federal government. And just as in the '90s, journalists are lapping it up.

Two reports this week on the Michigan Militia continued in this vein, though they at least contained some notes indicating that something darker is at work with militia organizing than the image the militiamen themselves want to cultivate -- that of ordinary citizens who are being civic-minded and patriotic.

Which is true. What's also true is that they're jacked up on large doses of paranoia about a "tyranny" that simply doesn't exist (particularly a fear that President Obama plans to take their guns away). What's striking to me is how they sound just like the militiamen I met in the 1990s when they knew reporters were around (and, as we learned eventually, it was quite different from the way they talked among themselves in private). But even then, they sounded fairly extreme and marginal in their beliefs.

Now, they sound just like your average Tea Partier. Indeed, it's remarkable how much their rhetoric is echoes Glenn Beck.

...Lee Miracle does offer a novel reason why it's unfair to connect the militias to Tim McVeigh: “Let's say after the Oklahoma City bombing they said Timothy McVeigh, a known bread eater, blew up a building. Now when you go the store and buy some bread they're going to say, 'Oh he's eating bread just like Timothy McVeigh,'” said Miracle.

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/michigan-militiamen-insist-theyre-ju

This all sounds familiar...

[sharesunited]

1. This is why Heller and Federalist No. 29 are gibberish.

When people with guns get together because they share a similar political viewpoint, it is for an unwholesome purpose and is wholly inconsistent with domestic tranquility.

[cowman]

3. Ohh I

see. So when I get together with my LIBERAL friends and we all have guns, according to you, I have an unwholsome purpose and it is wholly inconsistant with domestic tranquility. What kind of an idiotic statement is that? When we get together, we do so because we enjoy target shooting each others company. The "domestic tranquility" is not threatened by us. BTW, I am a Las Vegas Firefighter/Paramedic and I have been fully vetted by the state to carry concealed so I don't think I am any danger to anyone except criminals and then I would think very carefully when and where to use my firearm so please, continue to spout your dribble but know you and your anti-2nd amend are badly losing the RKBA argument

[cowman]

4. Whoops

meant to say target shooting and enjoy each others company

[sharesunited]

5. I may be losing the gun love popularity contest. But I am not losing the argument.

There is such little justification for guns and ammo in the hands of the general public, the case practically argues itself. All I need to do is point and say "See?"

[cowman]

6. Well apparently

you are because more and more states are allowing the general public to arm themselves and the courts keep on giving us 2nd amend proponents victory after victory but go ahead keep deluding yourself that you are winning the argument

[SteveM]

8. "The" argument? You've lost ALL of 'em. nt

[cowman]

10. Ever notice that

when Shares is called out he just seems tooooooo disappear or start really making ridiculous statements

[SteveM]

30. A scattering of roaches in the kitchen light is common, here. nt

[cowman]

9. Oh yeah

and when I finally retire this year I am going to go buy myself a few more guns and "gasp" "assault rifles" "gasp" and do some more sport shooting. How does that make you feel?

[MineralMan]

12. You've made zero successful arguments.

There are many perfectly valid reasons for gun ownership. I own some. You can point at me all you like and say, "See." It will just make you look foolish.

[aliendroid]

14. "All I need to do is point and say "See?"" I keep pointing and saying see, but you run away

Look guy, I'm pointing here and saying see:


You post up individual stories, now based on the first chart there, you can see where the violent crime has dropped, each point of drop, each individual violent crime that was reduced is one anecdotal story that did not occur thanks to concealed carry. You post up a few links to horror stories, but my graph shows that we have avoided as many as tens of thousands of horror stories thanks to shall issue concealed carry over the past few decades.

[cowman]

17. man

I love those graphs, they usually shutup posters like Shares

[AtheistCrusader]

64. Totally off-base on the 'nazi' gun control act of 1938 by the way.

The Weimar govenment pretty much banned ALL civilian firearms well prior to the rise of the Nazi regime. The 1938 gun control act you speak of actually allowed GREATER civilian ownership of firearms, it just left the prohibition intact for certain 'undesirables' like the jews.

[aliendroid]

76. not really

Actually NAZI firearms act of 1938 allowed more civilian ownership to NAZIs with registration and many other things left in it from the act of 1928, kind of similar to the firearms bills today pushing for registration of firearms. It's still strong gun control if you limited who gets to own the guns.

Next, it wasn't just a few 'undesirables' that would not be allowed to own guns. The entire world after the germans took over were the 'undesirables' and thus these elites (NAZIs) would own the guns, but the rest of the non-germans and non-nazis would not own guns and they make up the larger population, similar to how many DC politicians and even some police officers want to take guns out of the inner cities but they get to have guns themselves.

It's hard to find a pro-gun control law that isn't racist or classist in nature.

[aikoaiko]

15. You only win the argument with pro-authoritarians.

Self-defense against tyranny (including tyranny from civilian criminals or governments) is a perfect justification.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoopla Phil]

50. Ha Ha Ha. As if "justification" had anything to do with the 2A. Glad I

don't need "justification" To exercise any other constitutionally affirmed rights. Or do you think that is the case too? LOL

[rrneck]

84. You have yet to even attempt to support

whatever argument you may think you are making. You can't lose because you aren't playing. You only heckling.

[Hoopla Phil]

53. You may not agree but that does not make them "gibberish".

Both are well reasoned and easily read. That does not meet the definition of "gibberish".

[farmout rightarm]

78. Well, the solution is obvious. Invade and kill them before they do something nasty

like Bush did to Iraq.

[spin]

104. So gun ranges are unhealthy by your definition ...

that's where people who have a similar viewpoint toward the political issues involving RKBA gather to enjoy shooting.

At the range I used to shoot at, the regular shooters had a very low opinion of anyone who appeared to be a militia member. Usually they felt unwelcome and never came back.

One of the reasons I own firearms is in case I need them to defend myself and my family from fools like that.

[Walk away]

2. The good news is that they can have their annual picnic in National Parks!

I'm sure they just want to have "personal security" from the United States. :sarcasm:

[SteveM]

7. Around the park rangers... who have always been armed. Why dat? nt

[PavePusher]

32. You don't have much of a grasp of history, do you.... sigh. n/t

[Walk away]

39. History of what? Not the 2nd Amendment again.....or maybe a statistic...

from the 60,000 Pro-Gun apologist sites on the Internet. I'm sure the above mentioned militia nuts use the same resources. Sounds like 'bagger history to me.

[cowman]

41. More like

60,000 pro-2nd amend rights sites on the internet which just proves that we are winning the RKBA argument

[PavePusher]

43. Ah, you are a student of Newspeak I see.

We are at war with Eastasia. We have always been at war with Eastasia.

[AtheistCrusader]

54. Why would the MI Militia carry CONCEALED weapons in the parks?

I don't understand.

[aliendroid]

11. the government thinks gays are "undesirable" people also, so I wonder...

if I met a militia member, I wonder if they really are right wing extremist trolls with green eyes who eat babies. Or maybe they're just normal people who either were wronged by the government at some point or close to an incident in which people were wronged by the government.

[cowman]

16. I think you

are right on both instances, there are RW crazies out there and there are wronged people who form groups with peaceful intentions

[SteveM]

13. I recall the main reasons for the 14th Amendment, that bulwark of civil rights...

The Congressional debate associated with this amendment (1868) was centered on how best to secure the Second Amendment rights of newly-freed slaves. The language of the 14th Amendment recognized that blacks needed more protection for their 2A rights by both defining a U.S. citizen, and preventing the states (most esp. Southern states) from "abridging the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States..."

And what was threatening this Second Amendment right? Gangs, the KKK, local law enforcement ...and state MILITIA.

The fundamental right to keep and bear arms, Mr. Onehandle, is what both ensures the existence of the militia -- and protects against the militia, or anyone or anything which threatens citizens of the United States.

You seem worried about the Michigan militia, or in the alternative, wish to associate tens of millions of American citizens with the outlook of this group. Is it the latter?

[Don Caballero]

18. These types of hate groups should not even be allowed to exist.

I wish DHS, ATF etc... would go in and arrest these kind of people. They bring nothing but fear and hate to their communities.

[cowman]

19. No it's

people like you that bring fear and hate to this forum. I seem to remember a little thing called the 2nd amend right. you may not like what they stand for or have to say but they still have the right to say it and until they break the law I will defend their right to say and believe in their cause even thought I wholeheartedly disagree with them

[cowman]

21. Excuse me

got to typing to fast there, I meant the 1st amend right. so put that in your smoke and pipe it

[aliendroid]

20. what hate groups?

Wait, so if I disagree with the .gov you want to be able to push a button and have me arrested. uhhh ohhhh, I'm in trouble now, the authoritarian brigade is here to stop me from having a view on an issue that is against their absolute and complete power over society.

[Don Caballero]

23. I grew up in Michigan

These so called "militias" were deeply embedded in small towns all over the SE and SW of the state. Organized groups with large caches of weapons are a threat to everyone, especially minority groups.

[cowman]

24. And when

they do break the law then I fully support prosecuting them to the full extent of the law, but just because they have large caches of weapons doesn't mean they are a threat to anyone. I have a large cache of weapons 5 handguns and several "gasp" "evil assault rifles" "gasp" and I am no threat to anyone except criminals

[Katya Mullethov]

25. I can only imagine the look on your face

When they drag you out of bed too . A sort of shocked disbelief .

[Don Caballero]

26. I am a white male. The militia people are racists.

Although I think they are thugs and extremists, I have nothing to worry about from them. If I were a minority I would be worried.

[cowman]

28. And until

they break the law they have the right to their racist views however repungent it may be. I totally disagree with certain groups philosophy but I certainly don't think they should be outlawed because that just starts the slippery slope to censorship. Do you want that

[aliendroid]

29. So they are out of control rabid racists? Better tell those black militia members that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqXDY2rsk5s

Here's a black militia member, it seems he hasn't been lynched yet. Look. If you go against the government. The government will label you as extremist, racist, violent, evil, troll, or whatever they can get away with. It is a method for the government to keep all of you little sheep out there under control and behaving yourselves like you should and as the government makes progress toward removing your freedoms and putting you back under a dark ages feudalistic style government again, where they control everything, they don't want people to get in their way.

I don't know anyone in the militia, but I'd say this, from what I can see most members are libertarians (even the feds admit this), and I have never met a racist libertarian.

[Don Caballero]

31. Oh look we gots us a black militia member! Puh-lease. PR stunt by these racists

Sorry I don't buy that the militia members are racist extremists. I grew up watching them in supermarkets with their camo gear and big pickup trucks. Timothy McVeigh was a militia member.

[aliendroid]

36. the only bigot here, grouping people and talking bad about them is you

If you hear someone is in the militia, you label them, you automatically tag them with words like racist, extremist without ever getting to know any of them.

Neo-NAZI, KKK thugs pretty much label anyone with dark skin with horrible adjectives without even knowing them as persons.

The reality is you are an intolerant bigot who is ignorant of another group of people and you make yourself feel good when you call them names. Sure there are some racists in their group but that does not mean their rate of racism is higher than obama supporters or McCain supporters.

[cowman]

37. Soooooooo according

to you anyone who wears camo and drives a big pickup truck is dangerous. Will hot damn I must be a dangerous person because I still wear camo pants on occasion and do drive a big ass pickup truck. Oh my god I must be arrested because I am going to start killing people. How asnine is that?

[cowman]

42. And

according to your philosophy this forum could be considered a hate group, quick, quick disband this group before the guvmint comes to take us all away:rofl:

[PavePusher]

47. Again you use a fallacious logic chain...

McVeigh was a "militia" member, therefore all "militia" members are bad.

EPIC. FAIL.

[Don Caballero]

52. McVeigh was trained and encouraged by the militia to kill civilians

[cowman]

59. Nothing illegal there

until they actually carry it out. I agree it's repungent but thats the price we pay for a free country

[aliendroid]

67. once upon a time, there was this and there was that, but...

That is one incident. Show me the graph that shows that the millions of americans in militias tend to commit more crime than the regular population.

When a muslim commits an act of terrorism, it's easy to get mad at all muslims than I remember that their population in the USA as a whole does not add their fare share to crime.

[Don Caballero]

75. Millions in militias? LOL. Yeah right

Quit trying to inflate your numbers.

[aliendroid]

80. don't worry about it

not my numbers, I didn't come up with that number, that was an estimate from a while ago, that there were up to 5 or 6 million members at its peak but it's picking up again in the last decade.

I'm not a member. But as they are now mainstreaming and showing that they commit less crime than the average person and that they do volunteer service, and that they are not racist and while people like you keep trying to group "those people" and label them in a bigoted way, you will only bring more people into being sympathetic to their cause. As they mainstream their members will be more willing to come out of the closet. I bet you work with people who are militia members in secret.
You should get used to them. In ten years they'll be like the boy scouts for men.

[onehandle]

73. He virtually lived at gun shows. nt

[PavePusher]

87. So? What's the link? n/t

[cowman]

99. And

your point is?:banghead:

[rrneck]

86. Actually,

he was trained by the United States Military. Your tax dollars at work.

[PavePusher]

90. Excuse me....

I'm a member of the U.S. military, and have received training that would enable me to kill dozens, hundreds or thousands of people. So have millions of other Citizens. Note that 99.999999-odd percent of us haven't done so.

Please, don't play, or even imply, the same conflation game as onehandle, merely in a different direction. Thanks.

[rrneck]

97. Point well taken

and my apologies. No insult was intended.

McViegh was an aberration and obviously not representative of the purpose, ethics, or quality of training in the United States Military.

Nevertheless, the training he received, much like the gun on the hip of a CCW holder, has much more to do with what the individual who possesses it opts to do with it than with the object itself. McVeigh wasn't cut out to be a soldier and I expect never should have been. I think it was a failure of the selection process, not his training. Sound fair?

[PavePusher]

98. No insult taken, or perceived.

Sorry if I implied that you were being intentionally or inadvertently insulting. I was more worried about the folks around here who are a little more... literal minded.

And yes, you have a good point about the selection process. It happens from time to time, I have personnal experience with discharging people who don't belong in the Military. Another example would be the recent Ft. Hood incident. Fortunately, none of the people I've ever dealt with did anything even remotely like that.

[Don Caballero]

101. Are you comparing our military to crazed racist militia members?

That really is quite sick.

[rrneck]

102. No Don, Try and keep up.

Those dotted lines are there for a reason.

rrneck (1000+ posts) Sun Feb-14-10 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #90
97. Point well taken
and my apologies. No insult was intended.

McViegh was an aberration and obviously not representative of the purpose, ethics, or quality of training in the United States Military.

Nevertheless, the training he received, much like the gun on the hip of a CCW holder, has much more to do with what the individual who possesses it opts to do with it than with the object itself. McVeigh wasn't cut out to be a soldier and I expect never should have been. I think it was a failure of the selection process, not his training. Sound fair?


Don Caballero (769 posts) Sun Feb-14-10 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #86
101. Are you comparing our military to crazed racist militia members?
That really is quite sick.

[aliendroid]

35. This hispanic guy explains the militia for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xiray71lc-g

[Katya Mullethov]

40. Yep shocked disbelief

Didnt think this police state thing all the way through did we ?

[AtheistCrusader]

58. Pretty broad brush you're swinging around there.

I've heard the MI Militia(TM) has had some white separatist or supremacist issues, but that does not mean every state militia does.

In Washington State, the civilian militia is under the authority of the Governor. A democrat. Not a 'government hating' entity.


If an entity claims to be a 'militia' but does not recognize a lawful order from a civilian authority, it is not a Militia. It is something else entirely, no matter what it calls itself.

[PavePusher]

91. Note that there may be varying interpretations of what...

"a lawful order from a civilian authority" means. And they may not all be non-congruent or mutually exclusive.

[rrneck]

85. Do you think the term

"minority" only applies to race? They are a minority as well, and you are advocating their incarceration based on their beliefs.

Wow. Just - wow.

[PavePusher]

34. Ooooo, have they started their insurrection, yet?

I must have missed it in the news...

[farmout rightarm]

79. I used to be in an organized group with large caches of weapons.

The U.S. Air Force. Hell, we had weapons that could vaporize a large city.
:shrug:

[X_Digger]

22. Chuck the first amendment out with the second. Gotcha. n/t

[spin]

105. Maybe we could do that and get a King...

Oh, we went down that road in the past. It didn't work out well.

[PavePusher]

33. That's it! We'll get rid of the people who don't think right!!

Very American of you. Isn't that what we say the Right wants to do? Mirror, mirror, on the wall....

[aliendroid]

74. Mao and Stalin, starved off those people who didn't think right also

[PavePusher]

96. Those cheapskates!

Besides, that's a really slow method. Granted, they had an order or two of magnitutde larger population to work with than their immediate example of good 'ole Adolf...

:sarcasm: Just for those impaired folks who might take me seriously... Sigh.

[Katya Mullethov]

100. A year maybe with the Kulaks

[slackmaster]

38. We ought to get a bunch of people together and go teach those hate groups a lesson

Wait a minute...

[aliendroid]

72. Hitler thought the jews shouldn't exist. Just saying

[proteus_lives]

103. Wow,

Such an authoritarian.

And a bigot.

[safeinOhio]

44. I would hope that this group has all of its' rights until it breaks a law

and should be treated just the same as anti-war groups by the government. They should be infiltrated with FBI agents, wired tapped and set up to break the law and then busted. In other words, keep an eye on em cause they are dangerous.

[PavePusher]

45. "set up to break the law"?!?!

I don't think I want my government doing things like that.

That is a slippery slope if I ever saw one....

[safeinOhio]

49. Just saying this already goes on with peaceful anti=war groups.

I don't agree with that, but as long as it is done to them, I see no reason not to use the same tactics on right wing groups. My guess is that everyone in those Michigan groups are already on the "list" and will be the first to get what ever they are afraid of. The safe way to protect your food and water is the STFU and do it on your own.

[AtheistCrusader]

60. Not just the anti-war folks.

Possibly happened to the AppleSeed project.

[PavePusher]

92. Just because it is already used in one direction...

is not a valid, reasonable or just excuse to use it more, and it really disturbs me that you seem to think it is. Have you really thought out where such justifications can take us? I think I have, and it's not a pretty place. Not at all.

[Don Caballero]

46. Armed groups should not have a right to exist in the first place

We have our Army and National Guard to protect the country. These nutcase racists have no rights.

[cowman]

51. Have no rights

well I guess the same could be said of you because you are saying that armed groups have no right to exist. What about when I get together with my friend with firearms to do some target practice. should I be arrested? People like you are more dangerous than the militias because you advocate taking away my basic rights without due process.

[AtheistCrusader]

62. Where do you live? Germany?

Only place I can think of, fascist enough to outright ban beliefs. Well, France too.


You are ALMOST correct, in some cases. Here, I'll help you:

SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.


This is from the Washington State Constitution. There is a reason corporations like Blackwater (or Xe or whatever they're calling themselves this week) don't originate in Washington State. But we DO have a militia, and it is not a racist, anti-government thing. The Governor has a lawful way to call up able-bodied males in the militia for all sorts of things, even sandbagging for floods. It hasn't been used, to my knowledge, and it's sexist, but it's there, at the disposal of a Democratic Governor and Legislature. People of all colors are welcome. People of all political stripes are welcome.

It's not about being anti-government, it's about the security of a free state, keeping society safe from all sorts of dangers, even natural disasters.

If the MI Militia is racist, or anti-government, this is not an indictment of all militias. Even michigan state may have an actual Militia, that recognizes that it is subject to a civilian authority. (the State Governor)

Just because the MI Militia has co-opted the word 'militia' for it's name, doesn't mean all militias are shit.

[X_Digger]

63. Quick, ban shooting clubs.. and police.. and the olympics!! OMG! n/t

[rd_kent]

68. Well, its a good thing YOU are not in charge.

[aliendroid]

69. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, all thought the same thing, now 100+ million dead

Hitler, Stalin and Mao, and their supporters all thought the same thing. Why have armed groups when the government is so moral and should control all the guns?

The lack of logic in some anti-gun people is profound.
some of you thought bush had a capacity to be a fascist but you are willing to give the government all the guns
some of you think obama has a capacity to be a fascist but you are willing to give the government all the guns

I don't want to have to go through a lecture, so I'll let the Jews for the Preservation of Firearm Ownership do it for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwdO2FLg1Rs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaAr_1ugxu8

there are 6 parts, those are 1 and 2, when you open youtube you'll see the other parts in the related videos.

[farmout rightarm]

81. Are you under the impression that the army can legally operate against people inside the USA?

:eyes:

Have a look at federal law 18USC-p1385

[rrneck]

88. And they're doing a fine job of it in Iraq and Afganistan...

Oh, wait...

[cowman]

48. I see

so you advocate the FBI breaking the law. Setting up anti-war groups is illegal and immoral as well as setting up militia movements. Your argument holds no water

[safeinOhio]

56. Setting up anti-war groups is illegal and immoral and is

done all the time. I have never advocated it. The only reason my argument does hold water is because it is done. So, you are against the legal, post 9/11, surveillance of potentially violent anti-government hate groups?
As I said protect their rights while closely watching them and if your going to go overboard on left wing group, do so with the other side too.

[cowman]

61. I never said

I was against watching them, I am against infiltrating them to set them up for illegal acts, this includes any group and when they do break the law prosecute them to the full extent of the law. And yes I do not like the patriot act, it gives the govt. way to much power

[X_Digger]

66. Wait, you're saying because it's done, it must be legal?

"Setting up anti-war groups is illegal and immoral.. So, you are against the legal, post 9/11, surveillance of potentially violent anti-government hate groups?"

Which is it, legal or illegal? If it's illegal for one group, but legal for the other, what's the distinction?

I smell a double standard there.

[rrneck]

89. What makes an anti-war group illegal and immoral? nt

[PavePusher]

93. Egads, do you even hear the words coming out of your head?!?! n/t

[aliendroid]

70. deleted

nevermind

[Glassunion]

55. Unbelieveable

So all anti-war groups should be infiltrated by the federal governtment and then entrapped into commiting crimes.

You are a sick and twisted person. I would not like to live in your little totalitarian world. Basically there would be two groups of people. The government and the criminals.

[Don Caballero]

57. That really is going over the line

Set up to break the law? Anti war groups should be left alone because they do no harm. Hateful right wing militia groups stated purpose is to overthrow the government and kill minorities. They pose a real danger to the communities in which they operate.

[cowman]

65. They can advocate

all they want until they actually break the law. It's callled the 1st amend. I have said time and time again when they actually break the law then prosecute them, until then they have a 1st amend right to spout their crap

[aliendroid]

71. lies lies lies, lie all day long but that does not force it to be true

militias have minorities, I showed you this. You will ignore it I guess.

militias are not set up to attack the federal government but to defend their own state in case the feds send out forces to disarm and to take control of states.

[Katya Mullethov]

77. I think I might understand the confusion

Did you think Marxist was a race ?

[farmout rightarm]

83. No. You're right about the antiwar groups and you're wrong about the others.

That's an insane double standard that has no place in a civilized country. And I still think you're right
about population control so you're ahead...sorta.
;-)

[farmout rightarm]

82. Did you maybe forget the "I'm just shitting you, I'm not nearly that fucking stupid" smilie?

Just wondering

[PavePusher]

94. Ooooo, nicely done!

:rofl:

[farmout rightarm]

95. I know it was risky but I figured what the hell...

;-)