GUNS IN THE NEWS--December 30, 2003

[MrBenchley]

As CO Liberal sez:
Please try to adhere to the following voluntary guidelines, in order that we can have an orderly discussion of gun-related news topics:
1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current, stories should have been originally posted on the Internet within the previous 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board. On Mondays (since many people do not log in to DU over the weekend), stories can be posted from Saturday, Sunday, or Monday.
2 - Both pro-gun and anti-gun stories, editorials, and press releases are welcome in this thread, as long as they're current. Please do not post links to items from a few years back that support your position.
3 - Bear in mind that any links to extremely right-wing sites (such as Newsmax, CNS, or the Washington Times) or intentionally pro-gun or pro-control sites (such as the NRA or the Brady Campaign) are not considered reliable sources by many DU-ers. If at all possible, try to find a link for your story from a more mainstream source, such as a general-circulation newspaper or magazine site. If you choose to use a slanted site, be prepared for any negative feedback you may receive.
4 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People", or anything else that changes the meaning of the story.
5 - If it's not clear from the title where the story occurred, add the city, state, or country in parentheses after the title.
6 - Comment on a story by replying to that story.
7 - Please direct your comments to the story, rather than attacking the person posting the story or any person responding to the story. In accordance with DU rules, any messages that appear to be personal attacks against another DU-er or violations of any other DU rule will be reported to the moderators.
8 - If you object to these guidelines, do everyone else a favor and go to another thread.

[MrBenchley]

1. Man robbed, shot outside east Charlotte grocery

"A man was robbed and shot in the leg outside an east Charlotte grocery store Sunday, police said.
The man had just left Food Lion on The Plaza near Matheson Avenue about 3:30 p.m., Charlotte-Mecklenburg police said. Two other men took cash from him; one of them shot him, police said."

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/7589141.htm

[MrBenchley]

2. Shots Fired Into North Side Bar, One Man Injured (PA)

"A man shot in the back on the North Side is in serious condition this morning and police are still looking for his attacker.
It happened around midnight at Jim's Monterey Inn on the 1400 block of Monterey Street.
Police said the victim was sitting at the bar when someone fired four shots through the locked bar door. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031230/lo_wtae/1936961

[MrBenchley]

3. 2 men charged with murder of Monroe man (SC)

"Two men have been charged with murder in the Saturday night shooting of a Monroe man in South Carolina.
The Lancaster County, S.C., Sheriff's Office went to an Indian Land residence on Doby Bridge Road on Saturday at 9:42 p.m. after a neighbor reported a fight and gunshot, said Sheriff's Lt. Christy Rogers.
Authorities found Jason Burgess, 21, in the driver's seat of his running parked car in the driveway of the home, where acquaintance Shannon Myers, 31, lives. Burgess had been shot once in the left side of his body from outside the car; the bullet traveled through the driver's side door, Rogers said."

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/7596096.htm

[Romulus]

4. Ex-Sheriff Criticizes Law over Burglaries

this made it to the net today - Karan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/kent/3355561.stm

A former high sheriff of Kent, who has been burgled three times, has criticised the law for not protecting homeowners.
Robin Baker White's family have lived at the house in Street End near Canterbury for 150 years but since 1999 the property has been broken into three times.

During one of the raids, Mr Baker White used his shotgun to fire a warning shot in the air to scare of the burglars - and as a result the police confiscated the weapon.

*snip*

"The police cannot have it both ways - they cannot tell us that we are not allowed to defend ourselves in our own homes and then are unable to give us security."

*snip/end*



That sums up the gun-owner's rights issue in a nutshell.

[MrSandman]

23. England...

I read this and wondered why would someone fire a "warning" shot. If he feared for his life there was no time, if he did not fear for his life, it was neglegient IMO. Then the "Kent" and UK registered. If he had actually shot a home invader--they are not burglars if someone is home--he would have been confiscated by the police.

[MrBenchley]

5. Two dead in N. Phila. shooting

"For hours yesterday afternoon, they waited outside in the cold, ignoring the nosy passersby, the reporters, the cameras. Police would not tell them what was going on, they said, but they knew.
They had received the calls at home, at work, on their cellular phones, and they had rushed to this block of Lehigh Avenue in North Philadelphia, where they waited for someone to confirm the news: Their friends, their loved ones, were dead.
About 12:20 p.m., police said, Shawn Gilmore shot coworker Vivian Figueroa in the head in the third-floor office area of Liberty Management at 1007 W. Lehigh Ave. Next, he put the handgun to his own head and pulled the trigger. The weapon was found on the ground next to him."

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/7594815.htm

[MrBenchley]

6. Sports Authority Exec. Shot At KC Car Wash

"John Friedmann, the executive director of the Jackson County Sports Authority, was shot during an apparent robbery attempt at a car wash Sunday evening, KMBC reported. The 71-year-old Friedmann underwent surgery at an area hospital on Monday.
The shooting occurred in the 3100 block of Van Brundt Boulevard around dusk. Police said the victim was hit on the head and shot in the side. Friedmann managed to make it to a nearby convenience store for help. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031230/lo_kmbc/1935770

[MrBenchley]

7. Vest saves officer; suspect fatally shot (IN)

"A bulletproof vest saved a police officer in a gun battle Monday night that left one man dead on the Northeastside.
Police said Justin Coates, 23, of Indianapolis died after exchanging shots at close range with Patrolman Adrian S. Aurs, striking the officer at least once.
Police said Aurs' vest stopped the bullet. An off-duty gun that Aurs was wearing on his chest also was struck by a bullet. It was unclear whether it was the same round."

http://www.indystar.com/articles/9/106952-9529-009.html

[demsrule4life]

8. Wilmette Man Shoots Home Intruder

WILMETTE, Ill. -- A Wilmette man shot an intruder who broke into his home wearing a ski mask, police said.

http://www.nbc5.com/news/2731845/detail.html

Guess this guy didnt believe in the stories that home invasions only happens in the minds of paranoid RKBA minds.

[MrBenchley]

9. Fatal shooting is 1st slaying in Tipton this year (IN)

Guns and the GOP...a swell combination....

"A fatal shooting in the home of Tipton Mayor-elect George Ogden's son has been ruled a homicide, police said Monday.
Police in Tipton, a community about 35 miles north of Indianapolis, found Morris W. Moody, 35, near death about 12:30 a.m. Saturday.
He had suffered a gunshot wound to the head. Authorities pronounced him dead at the scene a short time later.
The incident happened at a house Moody shared with Robert Ogden, the son of the town's newly elected Republican mayor.
Robert Ogden rented an upstairs bedroom to Moody, police said.
Tipton Police Chief Gordon Tocco said investigators have not ruled out Robert Ogden as a suspect."

http://www.indystar.com/articles/4/106807-4674-009.html

[MrBenchley]

10. Anderson shooting investigation (IN)

"Anderson police on Monday said an under-21 club was closed at the time of a parking-lot shooting that claimed the life of an Indianapolis man over the weekend.
City police detectives made two arrests in the case and said a third arrest was pending. They also said the parking lot had been a gathering spot for young people.
Crane D. Fletcher, 35, Indianapolis, died around 3 a.m. Saturday from multiple gunshot wounds to the torso."

http://www.indystar.com/articles/7/106809-5787-009.html

     

[MrBenchley]

11. Man, 19, jailed in fatal shooting (TX)

"FORT WORTH - A 22-year-old man died from a gunshot wound early Saturday after scuffling with a female acquaintance's live-in boyfriend east of the Stockyards, police said.
Authorities arrested the boyfriend, Joshua Lascano, 19, hours after finding John Avrelio Garcia shot in the neck in the 2600 block of Glendale Avenue.
Lascano, whom police said had been wanted on an escape from detention warrant out of El Paso, is being held on $100,000 bail.
Garcia was walking home with a friend from a bar about 3 a.m. when he told the friend that he planned to knock on the woman's door and ask for a ride home, according to police reports."

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/local/7597718.htm

[MrBenchley]

12. West side homicide investigated (TX)

"FORT WORTH - Police are investigating the fatal shooting of a 28-year-old man who was gunned down early Tuesday after he opened the door of his west Fort Worth apartment to talk to someone, police said.
Homicide Sgt. J.D. Thornton said details were sketchy Tuesday and no motive had been established for the slaying at the Commons at Riglea Apartments in the 6000 block of Westridge Lane.
Thornton said Henderson was shot multiple times after answering the door of the apartment he shared with his girlfriend, who was sleeping when the gunfire rang out."

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/local/7599513.htm

[MrBenchley]

13. 3 Teens Suspected Of Shooting Horse, Other Animals (MO)

Praise Jeebus! The Spirit of the Wilderness Descends Again...

"Three teenagers are suspected of shooting a horse and other animals while on a joyride in rural Clinton County Friday night, KMBC's Krista Tatschl reported.
The teens, ages 15 to 17, allegedly shot a 17-year-old quarterhorse named Grady in a pasture. Grady's caretakers said that 50 to 200 lead pellets are permanently lodged under the horse's skin. A regimen of antibiotic shots and ice have kept the swelling to a minimum.
Tatschl said that a cow and a hog also were shot. They were in different locations. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031230/lo_kmbc/1937714

[MrBenchley]

14. Apartment manager shot by tenant dies (MD)

"A 50-year-old apartment complex manager who was shot this month by an enraged elderly tenant has died of her wounds, Baltimore police said yesterday.
Stephanie Gilliam was shot Dec. 8 by a 78-year-old tenant upset about a $10 increase in his rent at a senior citizen apartment complex in Baltimore. The tenant, Cephus Smith, was shot and killed by officers after they failed to subdue him with high-voltage shocks from a Taser gun, police said.
The slain apartment manager, who lived in the 1800 block of E. Federal St., was recalled by family members and a city councilman as a community organizer dedicated to rehabilitating the blighted Pennsylvania Avenue area.
Hoping to restore the community to a hub of commerce and night life, Gilliam served as president of the Pennsylvania Avenue Committee, an organization that focused on reviving the neighborhood. She also helped stage the avenue's annual Father's Day Cadillac Parade.
"She was one of Baltimore's greatest citizens," said Gilliam's husband, George Gilliam. "She was one of the greatest people you would ever want to meet. ... We were trying to preserve a legacy. We were trying to do work that would make it a better community so others would know that great African-Americans came from that area." "

http://www.sunspot.net/news/yahoo/bal-md.slay30dec30,0,3520483.story?coll=bal-newsaol-headlines

[MrBenchley]

15. Pair sought in death of Rodeo man (CA)

"Authorities seek two West County men in connection with Saturday's shooting death of 19-year-old Hamilton Meyers in a Rodeo public housing project.
Emergency calls of gunfire about 3:54 p.m. led Contra Costa sheriff's deputies to the 300 block of California Street, where they found Meyers with a gunshot wound in his abdomen, sheriff's Lt. Daniel Terry said.
Meyers died of his injury at John Muir Medical Center in Walnut Creek."

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/7597191.htm

[MrBenchley]

16. Girl, 11, Killed by Bullet While Sleeping (NC)

"LUMBERTON, N.C. - An 11-year-old girl was killed in her sleep in a drive-by shooting at her older sister's mobile home.
Fourth-grader Nicole Oxendine, who was visiting 23-year-old sister Bridget Oxendine for the Christmas holiday, was struck in the head by a bullet Monday, sheriff's Lt. Ken Sealey said.
The older sister, her newborn twin daughters and boyfriend were not hurt."

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/breaking_news/7600372.htm

[MrBenchley]

17. Girl, 11, Killed by Bullet While Sleeping (NC)

"LUMBERTON, N.C. - An 11-year-old girl was killed in her sleep in a drive-by shooting at her older sister's mobile home.
Fourth-grader Nicole Oxendine, who was visiting 23-year-old sister Bridget Oxendine for the Christmas holiday, was struck in the head by a bullet Monday, sheriff's Lt. Ken Sealey said.
The older sister, her newborn twin daughters and boyfriend were not hurt."

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/breaking_news/7600372.htm

[furrylitldevil]

19. which is why I support Chris Rock's opinion

of how bullets should cost $5000 each, then there would be no accidental shootings. I'm sure this little girl is thankful that so many people are exercising their 2nd Amendment rights

[Wild Bill]

20. yeah no bullets for poor people.

I can't trust anyone that can't afford $5000 bullets

[furrylitldevil]

21. Ask yourself

who commits these drive by shootings? I didn't read that the people drove away in a BMW.

Besides, everybody could still have their precious, precious guns that they love so dear.

[slackmaster]

22. Considering the customization on their Acuras and Hondas

With what they paid for their special low profile wheels, tires, paint jobs, suspension work, tinted windows and $3,000 stereo systems a lot of those punks actually could have bought an entry-level Beemer.

Step back for a moment and look at the reality behind the price of ammunition. The components to make a round cost pennies and can be improvised from inexpensive and readily available materials. The idea of charging a lot of money for ammo is absurd because of the obvious unintended consequences: People would simply "roll their own".

Besides, everybody could still have their precious, precious guns that they love so dear.

Illogical statement. You are not capable of reading other peoples' minds or otherwise divining their internal feelings about their possessions.

[furrylitldevil]

27. Sounds like someone's over-generalizing

With what they paid for their special low profile wheels, tires, paint jobs, suspension work, tinted windows and $3,000 stereo systems a lot of those punks actually could have bought an entry-level Beemer.

or stero-typing, I can never remember which is called for. I don't believe that the precious, precious gun statement is an illogical statement. In an era where the necessity of a firearm is non-existant, the only logical conclusion a reasonable person can come to is the overwhelming love of an inanimated object made from metal, plastic, and (in some cases) wood. What other motivating factors or internal feelings come into play?

[slackmaster]

29. And that's different from what someone else is doing

How?

In an era where the necessity of a firearm is non-existant...

Your personal opinion, unsupported by any hard data.

[furrylitldevil]

30. I simply asked a rhetorical question

based on the news article above. I don't recall the article saying anything about gold-plated rims or hydrolics or customizations. I'm sure if there had been something outlandish on the car, it would have made it more "memorable" in the eyes of the witnesses.

Good for you, avoiding the other topic like that.

[slackmaster]

31. You implied that drive-by shootings were all done by people

who drive crappy cars. 'taint necessarily so.

Good for you, avoiding the other topic like that.

What topic?

Oh, some criminals, in we-don't-have-a-clue-what-kind-of-car, other than a "white" one, murdered a young girl.

That sucks.

Or perhaps you are referring to your ridiculous No True Scotsman fallacy "...the only logical conclusion a reasonable person can come to... remark. Or your support for an unenforcable and unfair increase in the price of ammunition.

Whatever.

[furrylitldevil]

36. That's the kind of reply I expect

and you are absolutely right, why, I've read hundres, no wait, thousands of articles about well to do teenagers who commit a drive by or break into someone else's home. Must be that they want to show off their custom rides and shiny new guns to all their neighbors and friends.

The fact of the matter is, if you can afford to purchase a gun from a retailer, you can afford to buy a security system. Since that seems to be the mantra of the gun-nuts (personal protection, damnit!! PERSONAL PROTECTION!!!!!) then a home would me much more secure from a break-in if a bunch of lights and loud noises were to go off than if a gun were in a house. When last I checked, guns offered no magical force-field of protection over a house, and owning a gun doesn't render one invencible against the bullets of another, different gun.

[MrBenchley]

38. In fact....

not so long ago the RKBA crowd was wailing and moaning that having their popguns made them MORE vulnerable to crime that ordinary decent folks, and that it was absolutely vital that their identities be kept secret so that they could hide among us unarmed folks...

(And of course this had NOTHING TO DO with keeping newspapers and social scientists from finding out how many permit holders were committing crimes.<snicker>)

As Iverglas posted some months ago, you will notice you NEVER hear these folks asking for any sort of body armor.

[slackmaster]

41. A Straw Man from MrBenchley

not so long ago the RKBA crowd was wailing and moaning that having their popguns made them MORE vulnerable to crime that ordinary decent folks, and that it was absolutely vital that their identities be kept secret so that they could hide among us unarmed folks...

The context was whether or not newspapers should be allowed to publish lists of people who had been issued permits to carry concealed weapons. Among those people are victims of violent crimes - Rape, assault, etc.; people who are being stalked or threatened; and people who carry large amounts of cash or valuables on the job.

Do we really want newspapers publishing their names? Why not photos and addresses too while we're at it?

(And of course this had NOTHING TO DO with keeping newspapers and social scientists from finding out how many permit holders were committing crimes.<snicker>)

If MrBenchley had bothered to do even the most rudimentary research he'd have discovered that states that issue permits actually DO track that kind of information and make it available, as statistics, to the public. Because not everyone in state legislatures agrees that liberalized permits is a good idea that kind of tracking is commonly adopted as a compromise to ensure that shall-issue bills get passed. Here's an example:

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/chlsindex.htm

All kinds of data there, including demographics and conviction rates for permit holders.

But MrBenchley seems to be content to run on propaganda and assumptions as long as they paint gun owners in a bad light.

So sad to see someone who claims to be a liberal or progressive operating with closed-minded "techniques".

[slackmaster]

40. You may pick your own security devices and let others choose theirs

The fact of the matter is, if you can afford to purchase a gun from a retailer, you can afford to buy a security system.

A gun IS a type of security system, or part of a suite of systems to provide security, when it is used for personal protection.

Since that seems to be the mantra of the gun-nuts (personal protection, damnit!! PERSONAL PROTECTION!!!!!)

A Straw Man. Many people here, myself included, have expressed many different positive reasons for owning guns. Personal protection is just one of them.

...then a home would me much more secure from a break-in if a bunch of lights and loud noises were to go off than if a gun were in a house.

Pure speculative nonsense. People who break into homes care only about two kinds of noises: Large dogs and armed occupants.

When last I checked, guns offered no magical force-field of protection over a house, and owning a gun doesn't render one invencible against the bullets of another, different gun.

Wow, another Straw Man! Nice going. Two in one post.

[the_acid_one]

45. Oh no, bright lights and loud noise!

Well hey, guess what, Guns make flashing light and loud noise to, The differance? I can put a gun in my pocket and have my security system with me all the times.

When last I checked, guns offered no magical force-field of protection over a house, and owning a gun doesn't render one invencible against the bullets of another, different gun.

And a security system does? A dog does? I cant name anything barring an armored vehicle that makes one invincible to bullets.

How about we compromise? Since you dont like guns, how about, you dont own one, and since I do like guns, I will, and then we both win.

Unless maybe you're against people having the freedom to make decisions for themselves....

[the_acid_one]

33. That certainly puts things into perspective.

Guns arent necessary, wow! Someone tell the military and the police! We've found the answer to their budget problems, They can save all kinds of money by not buying guns!

Geez, Why didnt they think of that before? Such a great idea....

We should have known all along that we should let "reasonable persons" like yourself to make decisions about personel protection for everyone. Who needs their own opinion? We've got yours instead.

[furrylitldevil]

37. oh wow! Sarcasm!!

And I was beginning to think no one here had a sense of humor!

The fact is, for private citizens, guns are not a necessity. Also, if we didn't have such a war-mongering president in the white house, we could save billions not only on guns, but on military as a whole. So, with your endorsement, I would gladly make a few decisions about personal protection or everyone. As you said, we need to let "reasonable people" in on this decision making process.

[slackmaster]

42. You are not qualified to make that statement

The fact is, for private citizens, guns are not a necessity.

Speak for yourself. Different individuals have different needs. You are not in a position to judge what others need or do not need.

Also, if we didn't have such a war-mongering president in the white house...

Please spare us the Red Herrings.

[the_acid_one]

44. Nice to see you noticed

Well, you see, in America, you know, land where my fathers died, land of the pilgrims pride. Our forefathers felt it was necessary for private citizens to have arms, that's why they wrote the Second Ammendment, which guarentees (not grants) the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

And furthermore, you speak of our war-mongering president, talk about how Bush is out to squash civil liberties and put dissidents in Guantanamo Bay is all the rage here. Is this how you feel? If so, then why are you so eager to let Bush and all the people under government control, have all the weapons?

Now, I personally do not feel that Bush is out to get me, I also dont think he's evil or bad, just more powerful then I am, and not in agreement with the way I'd like to see some things done.

However, I still am not going to give up my best means of insuring that I can protect my freedom to this, or any government.

Right now you dont feel that guns are a "necessity".

I'll wager we ever have massive rioting and people burning buildings and looting (Rodney King Riots, anyone?) your idea of guns not being a "necessity" will change quite rapidly.

Personally, I'd rather have a gun and it be unneccessary then to need a gun, and not have one.

If you are so concerned about people having only what is a "necessity" and not having any guns, go to prison. There's no guns there and you'll get all the things you "need".

[furrylitldevil]

46. Okay, here it is, the very last statement to be said

You show me a man has to resort to using a gun, and I'll show you a man who's all out of ideas.

[slackmaster]

47. I have a better one

“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.”

- Bertrand Russell

I don't believe I am competent to judge your needs. Why are you so sure you are to judge mine?

[the_acid_one]

48. Nice sound bite...

..but sound bites almost inevitably fall apart under scrutiny.

Here's another sound bite.

"Show me a man who resorts to using a gun, and I'll show you a man who's out of options.

[MrSandman]

34. Only air, food, and water are necessary.

Some actually have fun. Some actually resent others telling them how to have fun.

I shouldn't shoot for pleasure because a very small criminal element uses guns? Forget 60-80 million votes.
I shouldn't hunt because some find it uncivilized? Forget what, 12 million votes(probably more, but I will use the 6%fiure previously posted from an anti-hunting site).
I shouldn't drive an automobile because some drink and drive? Forget ???

Oh hell, I give up...no more fun for me.

[furrylitldevil]

39. I'm sure smoking pot is a lot of fun

along with tripping acid, and I'm positive that owining a horse would be fun as well, yet for some reason, where I live, it's all illegal. Stupid Government telling me what to do with my free-time.

[slackmaster]

43. Are you sure you cannot legally own a horse

And keep it somewhere else, like a riding stable?

I'm interested to know what state or locale bans ownership of horses.

[the_acid_one]

24. Damned straight.

Anyone that cant afford to defend themselves shouldnt be able to.

Not only that but I'm sure a black market for bullets wouldnt pop up withen about...a day.

I dont find stand up comics to be the best source of great ideas.

[furrylitldevil]

25. That's a very Republican statement

Anyone that cant afford to defend themselves shouldnt be able to.


At the very least, it would put the issue into perspective. Let's ask this 11 year old girl what she thinks...oh, wait...

[the_acid_one]

32. Isnt it though?

However, As I recall, you're the one that suggested Chris Rock to have great idea's on crime control, and that we go with his idea of bullets costing an exorbant price. I simply echoed the basic idea of what you were saying in a more...sarcastic manner.

[MrBenchley]

35. You'll find a lot of that in the RKBA crowd here

This is a bunch that reads only crap like Newsmax, cheerleads for AshKKKroft's boondoggles, and actually pimps for Freepers.

[CO Liberal]

26. I Don't Find Ted Nugent to be a Good Source, Either

Or any of the other assholes in NRA leadership positions.

[furrylitldevil]

28. You and me CO

We're (amazingly) in this together.

[MrBenchley]

18. Westside Shooting Leaves Man In Critical Condition (FL)

"The Jacksonville Sheriff's Office Homicide Unit is investigating a Tuesday shooting on the Westside.
Investigators said James Matthews was leaving his house at Beaverbrook and McDuff Avenue when two men approached in a green car.
"Once they passed him, they got out of the vehicle and started shooting at him," said JSO Sgt. Vander Collier.
Investigators said the men were armed with an assault rifle and a sawed-off shotgun. Neighbors heard the shots and called police. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20031230/lo_wjxt/1938149