Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

E-mail exchange between pro/anti gun control physicians

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU
 
jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 11:26 PM
Original message
E-mail exchange between pro/anti gun control physicians
Edited on Sun Apr-04-10 11:37 PM by jazzhound
Having witnessed (and participated in) numerous debates between proponents of gun control and proponents of gun rights I've noticed that (with rare exceptions) the same dynamics play out during each conversation. For the sake of expediency I'll designate pro gun rights advocates as GR's and pro gun control advocates as GC's is describing my observations. Further, let's define the vague phrase "gun control" to mean laws which restrict the number of firearms available in the marketplace:

* GR's are generally familiar with the design characteristics of various firearms -- GC's........not nearly so much. In fact, a large percentage of GC's are unable to even define what differentiates a fully automatic firearm from a semi-automatic. Further, GC's seem to be of the opinion that knowledge regarding the design and function of different firearms is unimportant. Disturbing -- given the fact that a basic knowledge of firearm design/function is required to engage in honest debate in this arena.

* GR's argue primarily from a fact-based perspective while GC's argue primarily from an emotion-based perspective. While it it true that GC's quote statistics to argue their case, they're less interested in gaining a deep understanding of the relevant data and how that data interconnects because they believe that gun control is primarily a moral imperative in pretty much the same way that the anti-abortion crowd believes in the moral imperative of their cause. It's actually quite predictable that GC's lack knowledge in numerous areas of the gun control issue, as it is human nature for people to invest time in areas that interest them. With regard to firearms, GC's interest typically ranges from *dis*interest to absolute contempt -- not a strong starting point in terms of investigative motivation. GR's are typically able to box GC's into a corner very quickly in data-driven arguments since they have a much more deep and authentic understanding of firearms as they relate to crime and crime prevention, and when this occurs it is typical for the GC's to revert back to emotion-based argumentation.

* While GR's (including myself) are perfectly capable of ad hominem attacks, they are typically defensive in nature in response to a veiled insult or clearly disingenuous comment from a GC. GR's simply don't have to resort to ad hominem with the same frequency as GC's because the facts are on their side. Just one glaring example would be the number of states that have become "shall issue" in terms of concealed carry since 1986 with no overall negative consequence.

* While it is very common for GR's to point out basic errors in reasoning in GC argumentation, GC's are rarely able to honestly point to flaws in GR logic. Again -- this is evidence of desperation on the part of the GC's. GR's have the facts on their side. Another glaring fact in case: no correlation between the numbers of weapons and the level of violent crime. Don Kates refers to a condition known as "gun-aversive dyslexia" which prohibits many GC's from interpreting even relatively simple firearm data due to the fear and loathing they have for guns and gun owners. (a section-title of one of Don's writings describing portions of the gun control movement is "Fear and Loathing" as a Social Science)

* When confronted with information that challenges their positions, GR's are less dismissive of the information because they know that public support for gun control is steadily eroding -- and it only hurts their cause to appear closed-minded. On the other hand, GC's -- from their position of desperation -- are forced to dismiss everything that challenges their platform because they simply have no ground that they can afford to lose. Or if (as is usually the case) the GC has very little knowledge of the gun control issue the dismissal is based on their ideological rigidity and inability to keep their ego in check.

* GC's are much more prone to generally disingenuous argumentation -- again, as a result of desperation. It is *relatively* rare that a GC is able to identify disingenuous argument on the part of a GR. Recent glaring example: dismissing the sum total of the information presented in an article due to distaste for the messenger and portions of the writing.

* It is common for GR's to have spent a very large amount of time in researching the subject of guns as they relate to violence. It is less common for GC's to have done so -- again, because they have little or no interest in the subject. I have yet to meet *one* GC supporter (face to face) who has read *one* book on the subject of gun control, while the GR's I have spoken with have at minimum a strong working knowledge of the main players in the debate and the relevant statistics.

Forgive me if this is ground that has been repeatedly covered, but encountering this e-exchange prompted me to babble a bit. Obviously my bias shows. With more thought I'm sure I could go on at much greater length, but I imagine my fellow gun rights advocates will be more than happy to add to the list. In closing, I'll provide a link to the dialogue I referred to in the subject bar. You'll notice many examples of what I've mentioned above come into play in the e-conversation. The text of the gun control physician is in red, the gun rights physician in black.


http://www.dsgl.org/Articles/exchange1.htm


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. The same is true of discussing choice with pro life advocates.
Edited on Sun Apr-04-10 11:47 PM by flamin lib
When discussing one of the worlds great religions it isn't really possible to cite facts, statistics and reason as those things conflict with the one and only truth as held dear by the participant.

You figure out which side I'm talking about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
2. Often times anti-gun posters/peoples don't just dismiss technical information as unimportant
They view any technical knowledge as a sign that something is wrong with the person, that they are "obsessed" or that gaining even an extremely elementary knowledge of firearms beyond "they shoot stuff" is a negative.

When you cannot even describe (correctly or in greater than two year-old language anyway) what an object or feature of a firearm you are trying to ban from use on firearms, you are in the wrong game.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing ...
as it can lead to faulty conclusions.

Unless you can intelligently argue both sides of an argument, it's better to listen, research and learn.

I often find it sad that I can present better arguments in favor of gun control than the people who favor it can.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. There's plenty left for me to learn, particularly in the area of
registration laws as they vary from state to state, and the means by which law enforcement connects unregistered firearms to perps in states that don't have registration laws. I know I've got people in this forum who can fill me in. There have been times when my sentiments have been at variance with those of an RKBA advocate who's knowledge exceeds my own -- and more often than not I've amended my opinion based on their input. Why? Because they've been able to immediately back up their opinions by directing me to a source which corroborates their statements. And if my opinions don't change as a result of a conversation with another 2A backer, at least I can respect the fact that he/she has done the legwork necessary to earn the right to have what can honestly be described as
an *informed* opinion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. +1
:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. "I often find it sad that I can present better arguments in favor of gun control
than the people who favor it can".

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts along these lines, spin. What approaches to gun control do you favor, and why?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. That generalization is more or less true of the "peer reviewed" literature...
in which physicians pretend to be criminologists and hold forth on topics they know little about.

Even when the topic is something that is within the purview of an M.D. (e.g., wound trauma), excursions into ignorance abound, e.g. Trask, Richards, Schwartzbach, and Kurtzke, "Massive orthopedic, vascular, and soft tissue wounds from military type assault weapons: a case report," J Trauma 1995 Mar 38(3):428-31, attempting to make the case that them evil assault weppins oughta be 'ginst the law. That article ascribed magic wounding powers to low-energy 7.62x39mm caliber bullets, overstated their kinetic energy by 40%, and claimed that low-velocity AK rounds have greater velocity than high-velocity hunting rounds. As long as the article reinforces a certain editorial position, the attitude seems to be "Peer review? We don't need no steenkin' peer review!"

More heartburn-causing examples may be found in the following review of the literature (a little dated, but the pattern continues to this day):

Kates et al, Guns and Public Health: Epidemic of Violence or Pandemic of Propaganda? (61 Tenn. L. Rev. 513-596 (1994))

Do a search on "gun-averse dyslexia" in there, and be prepared to smack your forehead and yell "duh" a lot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yes, benEzra........familiar with the Kates article as it is included in his
book with Gary Kleck "Armed -- New Perspectives in Gun Control". In fact I included this link in an earlier post. The misinformation promulgated by the medical wing of the gun control movement is particularly egregious because people expect physicians to bring the same cool analytical powers to bear in analyzing gun control data that they use in analyzing medically related data. Of course anyone who has put some time into studying physician involvement in the gun control cause is aware that honest peer review is an absolute joke. Following the publication of the Kates article you provided the link to, (and possibly *because* of it) editors of both the New England Journal of Medicine and the Journal of the American Medical Association were fired for their lack of oversight relating to dishonest presentation of the facts relating to gun crime and violence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. I don't know who first used this analogy...
Edited on Tue Apr-06-10 10:15 AM by benEzra
but the situation in the medical literature re: guns is exactly the same as if police officers and criminologists, distressed by the mortality and morbidity that HIV/AIDS causes, decided that the solution to the problem was to "treat HIV as a crime".

If police and criminologists proceeded to publish reams of superficial, egregious-error-ridden articles on HIV/AIDS in criminological journals, written by police and criminologists, about how the medical approach to HIV/AIDS prevention is all wrong, and LAW ENFORCEMENT has the real answers to the problem, I doubt they would be taken seriously. Yet that is exactly what self-styled M.D. "gun experts" strive to do.

If I want to read a careful treatment of bridge failures, I'll look in engineering publications for articles written by engineers; I would take article written by an M.D. in a medical journal on that topic no less critically than I would take any other article on a specialized topic written by a layperson.

That is not to say that an M.D. is prima facie wrong on gun issues, but an M.D. writing on gun policy, gun ownership, gun technology, or gun law is speaking as a layperson, and should be weighed as such.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. A useful (and humurous) analogy I once read based on this idea:
"That is not to say that an M.D. is prima facie wrong on gun issues, but an M.D. writing on gun policy, gun ownership, gun technology, or gun law is speaking as a layperson, and should be weighed as such."

Putting MD's in charge of gun policy is like putting auto body repairmen in charge of writing traffic laws.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. Generally speaking (at least here)
I tend to disagree with pro gun and anti gun people more or less equally. At least it seems so. The difference is that responses to the gunnies have to me more carefully thought out.

Throwing shit doesn't take that much concentration.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. You're obviously a thoughtful poster, rrneck.........
........I'm more than a little curious about the RKBA positions that you take issue with. Love to hear your thoughts if you care to share them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Thanks.
Edited on Tue Apr-06-10 12:33 PM by rrneck
Generally speaking the legal trends surrounding RKBA seem about right to me. Given the real need for people to defend themselves and the technology available for that purpose, the laws regulating the use of that technology seem to to be the best available cultural response for those human needs. They also seem to be well suited not only for the regulation of that technology, but to help raise the bar in terms of educating people about when and how violence should be used.

As best I can recall, here are some points of disagreement with the pro gun people I have had here at DU (I rarely discuss firearms issues with anybody else)

Carry at universities.
There isn't a giant gong in the sky that declares someone competent and responsible on the moment of their twenty first birthday. In fact, although I don't have supporting documentation, I have been told by mental health professionals that males don't develop an adequate understanding of consequences until well after their mid twenties. A college or university has a very complicated mix of people when it comes to guns. There are people who are on the cusp of legal carry in close proximity with others who are not in an environment that is designed to encourage them to mix and mingle physically, intellectually and emotionally. Also, having taught at a university, I know that the presence of a firearm in a classroom will be a disruptive influence on that environment.

Of course, having said that I see no reason to deny carry at colleges and universities. Twenty one is the accepted legal age in this country and physically restricting firearms at a university in any meaningful way would be more disruptive of the learning environment than their presence. The closest I can come to a solution is more education for college students regarding the use and misuse of force. Hell, they're supposed to be there to learn anyway. Hey, I'm a liberal and us liberals are always for empowerment through education.

Choice.
Let's face it. People who initiate violence are assholes. The decision to initiate violence is always a bad decision. But the primary reason for the continued ownership of firearms in this country is that we cannot fully anticipate or understand the circumstances surrounding a particular violent conflict. We certainly can't legislate those circumstances. They can only be understood and dealt with by those involved at that moment. I won't judge somebody if they want to carry or if they have to use the weapon in self defense, nor will judge I their attacker. As far as I am concerned both parties were at the mercy of a whole range of circumstances beyond their control and understanding those circumstances will help us keep it from happening in the future.

In terms of perceptions and politics I think it is unwise to project a "he-deserved-it-fuck-him-good-riddance" attitude when an assailant gets killed in an assault. It leaves one open to an accusation of creating a pre justification for homicide whether the person expressing that desires it or not. Like you said, a lot of people have little or no experience with firearms and that lack of experience should be taken into consideration on a public forum.

Homicide
Killing people is wrong. Every time. Killing someone to rob them? Wrong. Defense against assault? Wrong. A dozen ninjas attacking your grandmother? Wrong. Sometimes the use of deadly force is necessary. Necessity precludes the availability of a choice. Moral behavior assumes a choice. Necessity cannot beget morality.

Uh-oh, this post is getting way long. I better go to work.

Spell check? Wazzat?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Thanks, rrneck
Don't have time to address your points now, but thanks for laying this out!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
9. They support legislation from ignorance
It is the worst kind of legislation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC