Federal gun law does not mix terms

[demsrule4life]

The thought of her son dying in a federal prison breaks the heart of Wally Martinez's mother. But it is a reality that mother and son are trying to come to terms with.
http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Jan/01042004/utah/126034.asp

If you can't do the time don't commit a crime with a gun.

[DonP]

1. Hard to feel sorry for him

I'm sure there are some folks that see this "kid" as the victim, but he made a choice and has to face the responsibility.

From the article it doesn't sound like he gets it, even now. "They are killing me ...", with that sentence he makes it pretty clear that he doesn't realize that his decision to use a gun in the commission fo a felony is what is putting him in prison. It is still somebody else's fault.

My youngest was robbed at gun point on the EL about 5 years ago. The gang banger that did it was thankfully caught, prosecuted and sentenced for the robberies only. They didn't even use any of Chicago's extra gun laws for the extra time.

Do I feel sorry for the person that shoved a gun in my kids ribs? Not bloody likely.

May this guy serve all 65 years in the slammer.

[SmokingLoon]

2. He's a criminal

he made his bed, now he can lay in it. Good riddance.

[alwynsw]

3. Sorry about his luck

Having worked as a supervisor in a maximum security state facility (Kentucky State Penitentiary), all I can say is: tough.

In reading the article, it appears that the punk is a violent repeat offender. "On average, one person a day was sentenced to federal prison for gun crimes in Utah, with some of the most violent offenders facing 50 or more years without the possibility of parole. The average sentence is 3 1/2 years.

Good riddance.

[Wcross]

4. Gee, a gun control law that works?

Go figure.

[grayrace]

5. this isn't gun control this is mandatory minimum sentcing

which is a bad idea, as most judges are now realizing. Proper gun control, what this country needs would have kept him from getting a gun in the first place.

[MrBenchley]

6. All this idiotic program does

is pad Federal stats...

And of course, it's John AshKKKroft's baby, which is why we've had three (or is it four) posts from the RKBA crowd here pimping it.

[Superfly]

7. It's a good program

Project Safe Neighborhoods works.

I am 100% behind putting crooks who use guns in crimes behind bars for a very, very long time.

I really don't understand why anybody would oppose this program. And just because it allegedly "pads federal stats" or it's "Ashcroft's baby" is not enough.

On edit: changed Project Exile to Project Safe Neighborhoods.

[RoeBear]

8. Some people who support gun control...

...support Project Exile.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=31640#31662

Could you please tell me what you think of various programs?

"Project Exile seems to be working."

[DoNotRefill]

10. Ummmm...doesn't this program date back...

to the Clinton years?

[SmokingLoon]

12. Dates back to the Clinton years...

Therefore, your post is incorrect.

[SmokingLoon]

14. EXILE started in 1997 in Richmond VA

A Clinton program. Safe Neighborhoods is modeled on it. Pimping for Ashcroft? I don't think so.

[MrBenchley]

16. Yeah?

And was Clinton pushing it?

[Superfly]

17. Yes, he was....

Link

Mr. Speaker, it is truly heartening to sit on this floor and watch my colleagues on the other side of the aisle trip over themselves to embrace Project Exile and find a way to somehow do it without giving credit to the creators of the program. Project Exile, as we all know here, is a Clinton administration policy. It was put into place by a Clinton-appointed U.S. Attorney.

[SmokingLoon]

18. Yes he was, according to this Democratic Congressman

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/ny09_weiner/statement.exile.041100.html

How do you feel about it now? Are we "pimping" for Ashcroft? Check your facts next time.

Try this too.

http://clinton3.nara.gov/WH/New/html/20000614_1.html

[SmokingLoon]

19. Still not convinced?

www.house.gov/judiciary/earlatt.htm

So, is my support of a Clinton/Reno program "pimping" for Ashcroft?

You were wrong.

[MrBenchley]

22. No, I was right....

Four threads supporting the GOP for doing this and NOTHING ELSE....and ignoring stuff like this...

"But my friends, as they try to ride the Clinton coattails on crime, they have made some mistakes, some omissions. First, they have left out the other half of the crime-fighting plan, and that is reasonable gun control legislation, gun locks, an enhanced Brady law.  I could not help noticing they also left out about 40 States. Surprise, Florida is not one of them. I am shocked that Texas is one of the States that is eligible. Apparently, if one's Governor is not named Bush, they really do not need to apply to this program this year.  "

"COMMON-SENSE GUN MEASURES ARE STILL NEEDED AND LONG OVERDUE. While pursuing an aggressive enforcement budget, the President will continue to call for much-needed reforms to our nation’s gun laws to keep guns out of the wrong hands. Despite the continuing occurrence of numerous gun-related tragedies across America - including the National Zoo, schools, places of worship, day care centers and retirement homes - Congress has allowed common sense gun safety legislation to languish for an entire year. The President will urge Congress to put the interests of American families above those of the gun lobby and pass this legislation to require background checks at gun shows; mandate child safety locks for handguns; ban the importation of large capacity ammunition clips; and bar violent juveniles from owning guns for life. "

[SmokingLoon]

23. Your statement is incorrect.

Support was for the Project. Even if we may not like the current administration, that does not make the Clinton/Reno Project Exile invalid and wrong because it has been even further expanded and is now administered by Ashcroft. Just becuase Clinton and Reno's project is now being run by another, does not make it bad. It is still a wonderful project.

[MrBenchley]

26. Hahahahahahaha...

It's the ONLY part of the Clinton/Reno program being used by Chimpy and his gang...and then just to pad federal stats so they can make a phony claim about "doing something".

And the fact that two of the other members of the RKBA crowd are trying to push this as "Gun Control that works" when it isn't gun control and doesn't do dick exccept pad federal stats is proof enough.

[SmokingLoon]

27. Incorrect.

As the criminals go to Federal prison, where parole is much less likely to happen. Therefore, it keeps gun criminals locked away for longer, which means that they will not be out shortly committing more crime. You also write that it is the only part being used by the current President. So what? Does that mean that a Clinton/Reno project is ineffective? Do you oppose this Clinton/Reno project because it is also supported by people whom you don't like?

[MrBenchley]

30. It's padding federal stats

and nothing more...

[slackmaster]

32. Those stats reflect real people going to real prisons

Who otherwise would not have, or who would have gotten shorter sentences.

If that's padding then we need more padding.

[Superfly]

35. I agree....let's pad the hell out of those stats!

NT

[SmokingLoon]

37. Padding is good.

When it sends criminals to prison.

[MrBenchley]

39. So are you telling us

these criminals would not have gone to prison under Utah state law?

[SmokingLoon]

41. They probably would have.

For a shorter period of time. There is no parole from Federal Prison, besides, what is wrong with enforcing Federal Law? Are you opposed to enforcing Federal law?

[MrBenchley]

44. Yeah, they probably would have

and who knows how much time they would have got?

"what is wrong with enforcing Federal Law? Are you opposed to enforcing Federal law?"
Wow, could you get any more desperate? Utah, to point to the current example, has some of the most idiotic gun laws on the planet. Gun nuts there erupted in rage because the Olympics wouldn't let them carry their popguns to the events. So the rest of us have to pay the upkeep to put Utah gun loonies away after they shoot each other?

As we say in Jersey, fuck THAT shit.

[SmokingLoon]

45. Do you consider Federal law to be desperate?

well? And if Utah has "idiotic" gun laws, why would you oppose using Federal laws where Utah's are insufficient?

[MrBenchley]

47. I said what I meant

"if Utah has "idiotic" gun laws"
IF? Nuff said.

[SmokingLoon]

49. No, not nearly "Nuff said"

Why would you oppose using Federal law where Utah's is insufficient?

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

52. 'Nuff said.

[SmokingLoon]

53. I wanted to know.

Why you oppose using Federal law where Utah's is insufficent?

[Superfly]

40. Padding is very good

when it sends criminals to prison....and keeps them there.

[rusk2003]

82. I wonder if that will increase Sexsual asssults in Club Fed

Since Violent offenders who usely end up in State Prisons who violate Gun Control they likely will being going to Federal Prison and Club FEd is mostly non violent White Collar type stuff. Iam sure the Corporate Crooks are not too happy to hear it lol.

[slackmaster]

28. MrBenchley got one thing and only one thing right

It's not gun control, it's criminal control.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SmokingLoon]

21. Amazing

The equating of support for a Clinton/Reno program with "pimping" for Ashcroft makes no sense. Does one think that Clinton and Reno were "pimping" for Ashcroft too? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. The premise that supporting Project Exile is "pimping" for Ashcroft is wholly without merit, logic, reason or fact.

edited for clarity, brevity, and niceness

[MrBenchley]

24. Easily amazed, then.....

One of the threads on this crap last week even announced out loud it was a good thing by this administrration...

Of course the same thread also falsely claimed it reduced crime....a boast not even the GOP hack being quoted could make.

[SmokingLoon]

25. Are you saying that...

Using Federal law to put away gun criminals is a bad thing, since it is currently being done by President Clinton's successor?

[MrBenchley]

29. I'm saying that this is padding stats

and nothing else. And it's such a hotshit program that in Albuquerque its funding is being cut this year.

Here's one of your fellow RKBA "enthusiasts": "Wow, who'd a thunk it? Actually prosecuting those who committ crimes with guns and enforcing the thousands of gun laws already on the books! One of the few things this administration has actually done right."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=29823&mesg_id=29823

Gee who would guess that the party whose unelected drunk leader would parade around the Baghdad airport with a prop turkey for the cameras would do something meaningless just for show?

[SmokingLoon]

31. Thanks for the link

it supports my position that this Clinton/Reno project is a good thing, no matter who the current President is.

[MrBenchley]

33. Not even close to true

By the way, if it's such a hot shit priority to keep violent criminals from getting their hands on guns, why does this corrupt appointistration OPPOSE closing the gun show loophole?

[SmokingLoon]

34. That is irrelevant

the discussion is about EXILE, please don't try to change the subject. I encourage people to stick to topic. Staying on topic, I ask, are you opposed to the Clinton/Reno Project Exile? Feel free to start another thread about your "loophole".

[MrBenchley]

36. Sez who?

It's certainly relevant to the issue...and it shows even more starkly what a sham AshKKKroft and his padded stats are.

Next ask me what I think about an NRA life member doing all he can to protect gun industry profits....

[SmokingLoon]

38. Please stick to discussions on EXILE

Changing subjects is not an accepted debate technique. Sticking to topic, I'll ask you if you think that President Clinton and Attorney General Reno were wrong to implement Project Exile?

[MrBenchley]

42. Why?

The whole point of this is whether or not AshKKKroft's phony-baloney program is doing anything effective...which it clearly is not. It might do something as point of a broad overall gun control program such as Clinton proposed, but we ain't got anything like that.

Instead we got an NRA life member padding federal stats for show. And FOUR threads from the RKBA crowd shouting "Wheee!" over this empty bullshit.

"Sarnacki says sending gun criminals to federal instead of state prison has saved Utah $4.5 million in the past four years in housing costs alone. "
Guess who's paying that $4.5 million now?

[SmokingLoon]

43. Please try to pay attention.

It has been established that the program is a Clinton/Reno program. Above, you called it "phony-baloney" and "AshKKKroft's". It has also been established that Federal criminals spend more time in prison. Do you believe that Clinton's program is "phony-baloney", or did you accidentally write that?

[MrBenchley]

46. I AM paying attention

"It has been established that the program is a Clinton/Reno program."
Clinton and Reno have been out of office three years...and it was only one step of a broad program of theirs that has bene all but jettisoned.

"It has also been established that Federal criminals spend more time in prison."
Yeah? By who?

"Do you believe that Clinton's program is "phony-baloney" "
I don't believe having this and this alone WAS Clinton's program....and I think you know that too.

[SmokingLoon]

48. reply

Established by a different thread where the US Attorney stated that Federal prisoners don't get parole and average 90% of their sentence behind bars.

You wrote "I don't believe having this and this alone WAS Clinton's program....and I think you know that too." Who else deserves credit for it? It is a wonderful program.

[MrBenchley]

51. Hahahahahaha.....

Of course, in another thread we found that in 40% of the cases there's been no jail time, and for the majority of those where the criminal DID go to jail (AFTER committing the crime with the gun he got his hands on easily), he pled guilty to get a shorter sentence. Yeah, the program's a ball of fire,all right.

[SmokingLoon]

54. Well, I am glad to know

That you oppose Bill Clinton and Janet Reno's Project Exile. If you don't support it, are you opposed to all Federal gun-control statutes? Or do you support ones that don't put criminals in jail? What exactly are you for, if not for using Federal law to put gun-criminals in prison?

[MrBenchley]

55. Spin and spin and spin

It's clear you can't discuss the issue on the level.

Clinton and Reno never intended it to be a stand-along program, and as such it does nothing now but produce bullshit stats for propaganda purposes. One more sideshow from an appointistration that's all show and no go.

[SmokingLoon]

56. I'm not the spinner

I support Clinton's program, no matter who the current administration is. Hell, I'd support it if GWB started it. I support using Federal law to put gun-criminals in prison. I support using State law to do it. I support locking the bastards up for as long as possible. Spin that.

[MrBenchley]

57. Sure you are...

You're the one trying to pretend that this is Clinton's program (and not just part of it) and you're the one desperately trying to pretend this does anything but pad empty stats for propaganda purposes.

"I support using Federal law to put gun-criminals in prison."
As long as the gun industry gets to cash in first, eh?

[SmokingLoon]

58. Please, using reason and logic, explain

how putting gun-criminals in Federal Prison (which you appear to oppose) lets the "gun industry" "cash in first".

I can't wait to see this one.

[MrBenchley]

59. Been there, done that

"33. Not even close to true
By the way, if it's such a hot shit priority to keep violent criminals from getting their hands on guns, why does this corrupt appointistration OPPOSE closing the gun show loophole?"

[slackmaster]

60. Totally absurd reasoning

The misnamed gun-show loophole has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on profits for the gun industry because it concerns only the secondary market, i.e. private-party transfers of USED firearms.

There is NO gun-show loophole for newly manufactured firearms.

:hippie:

[SmokingLoon]

61. Please don't try to change the subject, again.

You should know better than that.

[MrBenchley]

63. Been there, done that

Tough titty you don't like the answer to your question.

[SmokingLoon]

64. Dodging the question is not an answer...

but it does show that the dodger has no reasonable answer.

[MrBenchley]

65. The only dodging is yours

But hey, maybe screaming "you changed the subject" can fool some people...

[SmokingLoon]

66. guffaw!

I'm amused now. Thanks for sticking to the Project Exile topic. Why don't you support Clinton's program? Why don't you support putting criminals in Federal prison when you imply that Utah's laws are insufficient to do it on a state level?

[MrBenchley]

67. Too frigging funny....

"SmokingLoon
58. Please, using reason and logic, explain how putting gun-criminals in Federal Prison (which you appear to oppose) lets the "gun industry" "cash in first"."

<sarcasm>But please please please be sure not to mention anything BUT Project Exile.....especially not one of the other KEY pieces of the program Clinton and Reno ACTUALLY supported.</sarcasm> Yeah, ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ght.

[SmokingLoon]

68. Are you ever going to bother to answer the question?

In 58? Your response was a question, not an answer. Please attempt an answer.

[MrBenchley]

69. Been there, done that.

"33. Not even close to true
By the way, if it's such a hot shit priority to keep violent criminals from getting their hands on guns, why does this corrupt appointistration OPPOSE closing the gun show loophole?"

You tell US what the obvious answer to that question is.

[SmokingLoon]

70. Hey, let's play dodgeball and try to change the subject!

Not going to work. Once again, I ask you to respond to the question with an answer, not a question.

[MrBenchley]

71. Better yet....

Let's pretend that what what Chimpy and AshKKKroft are doing is exactly what Clinton and Reno would have done, annd scream in rage whenever somebody points out what a pile of crap that assertion is.

[SmokingLoon]

72. Unreal

Obviously if one who opposes Clinton's Project Exile were to answer the question in #58, the answer would show the theoretical respondent's views to be absurd or unreasonable. After all, who could possibly be against enforcing the law against criminals? Maybe somebody who wants to make sure the gun laws don't work so that screaming for confiscation could commence. "HEY, the laws don't work (because they aren't enforced) let's go door to door!" I would feel sad for any person who theoretically thought like that.

edited to say: I am theoretically done with this conversation.

[MrBenchley]

74. Yeah....it is unreal to pretend this is what Clinton intended

But RKBA arguments have nothing at all to do with reality...as we see every day.

[SmokingLoon]

75. I CAN'T resist!

Bench does everything but say directly that President Clinton did not intend to send criminals to Federal prison for gun crimes. So now you think he was against enforcing the law. You, sir, are a true classic.

[MrBenchley]

76. Yeah, one has to wonder

about a "movement" that has to rely as regularly on distortion and outright deception as the RKBA movement does.

[SmokingLoon]

77. I refer you to #58

How about an answer? What's holding you back?

[MrBenchley]

78. Been there, done that.

Who's putting the gun indfustry's profits above public safety?
John AshKKKroft...annd he's using crap like this boondoggle to hide it from the public.

Can't wait to see who cheers "hooray!" this fall when the Republicans announce federal gun convictions are up. Until then, let's all wonder why another thread on this crap is based on outright fraud, and another one claims a reduction in crime that doesn't exist, and this one is trying so hard to pretend that this is the sum total of Clinton's anti-crime program instead of a tiny little piece.

[SmokingLoon]

79. I find it sad

that you would prefer convictions to go down. I'm done with this conversation, as it seems impossible to get a reasoned response. I might reconsider if one could actually use reason and respond to #58. Alas, I fear that is an impossible request. Bye bye.

[MrBenchley]

80. Next ask me if I care what you find sad

or how much you want to pretend these people wouldn't be convicted without this boondoggle..

And for the record, in New Mexico, 40% of the defendants were getting no jail at all under this program (just 274 out of 442 convicted)....and funding is being cut. That's some hot shit program the GOP is running, all righty!

http://www.abqtrib.com/archives/news03/121803_news_guns.shtml

[slackmaster]

73. Uh-oh, another Straw Man

Let's pretend that what what Chimpy and AshKKKroft are doing is exactly what Clinton and Reno would have done...

But nobody has done that.

[DoNotRefill]

9. It's not mandatory minimum sentencing...

it's charging people for breaking the law.

If you read the article, you'll see that sentences under the program ranged from a low of 3 months to a high of 65 years. That sounds like they're covering the full range of possibilities.

[alwynsw]

13. Proper gun control?

Criminals, by definition, break and/or circumvent laws. How will new laws correct this?

The law on sentencing in this case uses a sliding scale ranging from a few months to decades. I cannot see the validity of your statement that this is mandatory minimum sentencing.

Proper gun control - to use an old saw - is putting youor rounds in the target.

[DoNotRefill]

11. I've got mixed feelings about this.

While it's good that they're enforcing the law, it makes me nervous that they're giving gun crime different treatment than other forms of violent crime. After all, you can be made just as dead by an armed robber with a knife or a bomb or whatever as you can with a gun. Why should a criminal who uses another weapon and kills somebody with it be sentenced less harshly than if they used a gun? The victim is just as dead...

[alwynsw]

15. We're working on that in Kentucky

The motto is "Gun Crime Means Double Time". The law actually extends to any crime committed with any weapon. That includes knives and bombs. Even a size 12 broughan used as a club.

[GRClarkesq]

62. No problem with these guys going to prison

but they should be going to state prison. Federal law enforcement has better things to do than investigate and prosecute people for local gun crimes. Federalism anyone?

[rusk2003]

81. Harsh No Doubt

But I would like to know hy would any crook use a Firearm During the Commission of A Felony since it has ver harsh penalties. I think that is the only way too reduce Gun Crime is to make any crime used with a Firearm the death Penality if it is a Felony and 5Years and A STIFF FINE If it is a Misderminor