Delafield gun club foes say bullets have flown off range

[onehandle]

Delafield — Opponents of the Hartland Sportsman's Club say the stray bullet that grazed a diner at the Delafield Brewhaus last month is at least the fifth errant slug that has left the gun club's grounds over the years.

Citing safety as a factor, they say the club, which existed before much of the development sprang up in Delafield, should be shut down for good.

"We are in uniformity on this. It is a real major safety issue," said Wayne Dehn of Delafield, who lives on Broken Bow Trail near the gun club and is among a group of residents urging the city to close the gun club. "It really comes down to that it just doesn't fit anymore."

A police investigation into the April 29 stray bullet incident that injured a Waukesha woman determined that a berm that is supposed to stop shots on the club's 50-yard range is insufficient and it is possible for shots to clear the barrier.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/waukesha/93904904.html

[HopeHoops]

1. Isn't that a little like people who move into a house near an airport and then complain about noise?

:shrug:

[Bonhomme Richard]

2. That's a joke. Right? n/t

[HopeHoops]

13. Oh no. Some developer put up a bunch of high-end houses near HIA and PEOPLE BOUGHT THEM!

Now, of course, they're complaining about the airplane noise.

People buy new high-end houses right near a highway and then bitch about road noise - so GUESS WHAT - we all get to pay for their sound barriers.

[damntexdem]

4. No, it's more like a child who is born and later complains about the preexisting idiocy of society.

A society that would allow a gun club to continue to exist in a now-developed area without an adequate berm to protect that area.

[Deep13]

7. Usually the rule with property rights is...

...first in time is first in right.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

15. Not when bullets start flying off the property.

Your little property rule doesn't hold up when little old ladies start getting their hair parted by .45 slugs.

[Deep13]

17. The point is that rural residents should not have to see...

...the rural character of their property destroyed because greedy developers insist on turning it into subdivisions. Yeah, the town is not going to let people get shot by accident. By if they were being fair, the solution would be to zone the commercial area agricultural and not the shooting club mixed use. If some business has to change the nature of their operation, it should be the new one, not the one that has been there since mid-century.

I ran into a similar problem myself. I moved to a rural county into a 30-yr.-old house partly to take advantage of the relatively dark skies for amateur astronomy. There was a farm behind us that had been partly developed, but the county told us that the undeveloped part close to our property was for common use. Within months, more prefabricated houses on tiny lots went up and all over town too. Now the sky sucks again.

And by the way, the Common Law is not my little rule. It's COMMON to all the country with specific exceptions to previously French or Spanish colonies.

[katzenjammers]

22. It isn't a 'little property rule', it's a basic principle of a civilized society.

Do you find that offensive? Maybe some developer will come around and get you evicted from your home because he thinks your lifestyle is incompatible with his ideals...

[Hassin Bin Sober]

25. "basic principle of a civilized society"

So is not shooting your neighbor. :rofl:

I'll keep this thread in mind when I see the the biggest mouths in this forum strut round and boast how professional and proficient they are with weapons and how they should be trusted with CCWs due to their training .....

What were those rules about shooting and knowing what is down-range before you fire?:rofl:

[PavePusher]

24. 5 instances in ten years...

Teh stoopid, it burns.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

32. 5 ... REPORTED ... instances in ten years.

Maybe you should rub some gun oil on it make the burning all better. Then give it a break for a few hours.

[oneshooter]

38. If it ain't reported, it didn't happen. n/t

[Hassin Bin Sober]

40. Talk about "teh stoopid"

So let me get this straight -

Is it your contention that 100% of the relatively tiny rounds, dispersed over potentially several square miles, were noticed and reported?

:rofl:

LOL at the pro-gun posters here showing their TRUE colors.

I always sorta suspected it. I mean all the huff and puff here about safety and responsibility.

I can't help but think about attitudes like yours when I can't hike with my dog on my in-law's down-state Illinois posted and fenced acreage during deer season. Or when I visit Michigan and my friend points to the lard ass at the IGA dressed in camouflage loading his trunk with beer and says THAT'S why we aren't hiking this week.

[shadowrider]

41. I'm having trouble with your reluctance to see truth in that statement

When pro-gun people say citizens use their weapons defensively, without shots being fired, to prevent a crime, we're asked to prove it. We can't because a vast majority of these incidents are NOT reported since no actual crime occurred. Not reported means didn't happen, according to the anti's, and they use this argument against us.

Someone now says the same thing back at an anti, that is, if it isn't reported it didn't happen, that too is held against us.

While I agree there may have been additional bullets that cleared the bern (I haven't seen photos of the facility and have no idea what it looks like), only 5 have been reported.

Using the anti's logic, because they haven't been reported, they didn't happen.

What is the untruth?

[oneshooter]

43. If there is no "official record" of it happening,

then it officially did not happen. That is how it works, if there is no report at the time that it happened then any report afterward is just "hearsay".

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Deep13]

3. .45 Cal is an unusual size for a rifle.

It could be .45-70 or a .44 or .45 cal. pistol-caliber round. Either way, it indicates a limited class of cowboy-style rifles. The point is, it may not be the club so much as one guy who is over-shooting the barrier.

Anyway, if the problem is that suburbia is encroaching on what used to be farm or undeveloped land, I guess I take the Common Law view that first in time is first in right.

[Wickerman]

5. Reading the article there have been five incidents

Some were traced to calibers associated with handguns, some long guns.

On Oct. 21, 2003, people leaving New Age Chemical told police they heard something traveling over their heads that "sounded like a bee." Then they heard a cracking noise and saw something fall off the building. The owner found a .40- to .45-caliber round on the ground, a police report says. Police found a man shooting at the gun club that day, and he said the bullet appeared to be one of his, the report states.
On March 27, 2000, New Age Chemical reported that a window had been broken by a small bullet, which was found on the ground below the window.
On June 27, 2003, a New Age Chemical employee found a large bullet fragment on the sidewalk near the front doors, a police report shows. It appeared to be a .45-caliber round, the police report states.
On Feb. 15, 2003, a homeowner who lives on Willow Hill Road, north of I-94, discovered a broken skylight and found a bullet between window panes. A Waukesha County sheriff's deputy said it appeared the slug was from a rifle and there was a good chance it came from the gun club, about a half mile to the south of the residence, a report states.
In the April 29 incident, Raluca Buznea, 31, was grazed by a stray .45-caliber round while she was dining outdoors at the Delafield Brewhaus, at 3832 Hillside Drive, which is about a quarter mile north of the gun club.

[Deep13]

6. I know, all .45 (except one is .40-.45 which can still be .45).

One report says it was a rifle, the others don't say one way or the other.

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. Of course, five 'incidents' does not mean there were only 5 rounds

that have gone astray.

Who knows how many overshot the berm and plopped down in peoples' yards, impacted trees or the sides or roofs of buildings in places where they were not noticed?

[X_Digger]

8. So... revise the berms again. Problem solved. n/t

[Glassunion]

9. I think the town should pay for repairs or modifications to the berm.

Reminds me of a town I used to live in.

A developer built homes and strip malls around a factory. The factory had been in business for over 100+ years. The new residents tried to force the factory out. Idiocracy at it's best.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Remmah2]

16. The downrange residents should be taxed to modify the range.

Berms and baffels.

[Glassunion]

21. I'd call it the "Hey Stupid!" tax.

I loved it when the new home owners were pissing and moaning about the noise that the factory made at town meetings. What do you expect a steel factory to make? The furnace exhaust alone sounded like a jet plane. It would blare for about 3 hours at a time, 3 times a day.

Most of the homes are empty now, mostly due to forclosures. They all paid about 400k for homes that are worth about 200k. Glad I left NJ.

The funny part was they were all up on a hill looking down at us, but we could barely hear the factory as the stack was as tall as the hill. Dumb asses.

[HALO141]

42. +1

:bounce:

[xchrom]

10. Recommend

[pipoman]

11. Apparently WI, like many other states, has

laws in place to protect existing shooting ranges from the later objections of others.

http://www.wrpa.com/Legis_Range_Protection.htm

If these are like many other states, there is no way, once a shooting range is in existence, to make them move. Sounds like the developers and buyers of nearby property are SOL.

182.021 Gun clubs. Any domestic corporation formed for
the purpose of sharpshooting or improving in the use of firearms
may acquire suitable grounds therefor, and may establish, use and
maintain a rifle range for its exercises. After such grounds and
range are permanently located and improved by the erection of
buildings, breastworks, ramparts or otherwise, no public street
shall be opened through the tract so used or occupied, unless the
necessity therefor shall be first established by verdict of a jury; nor
shall any suit be maintained against such corporation to restrain,
enjoin or impede its exercises at the place so selected on complaint
of any private individuals or parties, who shall acquire title to any
property adversely affected by such exercises after such grounds
and range are permanently located and improved as aforesaid

http://www.legis.state.wi.us/statutes/Stat0182.pdf

[proteus_lives]

18. Ban gun clubs from Delafield.

It's the only way we'll be safe.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

19. Nah. Just ban the clubs too stupid to keep their rounds where they belong.

[Callisto32]

20. Ban people too stupid to not build their homes NOT downrange from a known firing line...

[NewMoonTherian]

26. Not ban them, necessarily.

Just collect them and deposit them in a secure community where they can be supervised by people of reasonable intelligence. Provide toys and simple books to educate them in the practice of not exposing themselves to a known danger and then complaining about the actions of innocent people.

[Callisto32]

28. Yeah, they shouldn't be banned.

"Ban X" is the usual refrain when something bad happens, though; no matter how ridiculous it may be. Like when the UK determined that hooded sweatshirts cause crime.....

[PavePusher]

45. Or, we could just let evolution procede apace...

Much as I hate to endorse planned eugenics, it may be time to a. Stop letting Stupid reproduce. (No, I've got no plans or suggestions on how to not abuse that...) and b. Stop protecting Stupid from removing themselves from the genetic dance.

I heartly endorse B, and often whimsically ponder A. Bad me... :spank:

[PavePusher]

23. 5 times in ten years...

And people are pissed off due to their own stupid.

Meh....

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

30. Ban Delafield from gun clubs!!

[aikoaiko]

27. It's cases like these that led GA to makes laws that prevent gun ranges from being rezoned out.

The homeowners have a legit beef if rounds are clearing the range, but closing the range would seem to be an unreasonable solution given the rarity of the events.

[DonP]

29. Is this another one that "found" a complete cartridge?

I seem to remember a year or so ago, a subdivision was demanding that they close a nearby gun club/target range that had been there for over 75 years for the same reasons.

The local media picked up the story and one homeowner, showed the media a complete 30.06 cartridge, unfired that he "found" in his driveway, "proving" that his life and the children were "in danger".

IIRC they were eventually exposed as frauds (not to mention the local media outlets exposed as morons) after a few weeks and the club was allowed to stay in operation.

I'm not saying that's the case here too - at least not yet. But the physics of a nearby home, finding a spent bullet, let alone hearing one pass overhead with any kind of berm in place that the round would have to pass over, would seem to make it a fairly high "lob shot" to hit anything within a golf chip shot or even a fairway iron away.

It reminds me of the almost annual story every fall in the local papers where my parents live (fairly remote rural area that's being developed) where a recently transplanted Chicagoan sees a "man with a gun right across the street" and calls the cops. The cops usually now know enough to find out on the phone that it's a farmer hunting pheasants and/or rabbits with a 12 gauge in his own cut over corn field over a quarter mile away. The nice part is they publish the name of the person that got freaked out since they usually call the local papers too about the "danger" this poses for the children. That way we all know who to make fun of if we ever meet them face to face.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

31. Yes. I bet that pregnant woman stole a spent round and then grazed herself .

....so she could turn it in to the state crime lab it match it to the weapon at the club.

I bet the cops are in on it too.

From the OP:

Buznea, 17 weeks pregnant, suffered a scratch and a bruise on her left side, just above her hip. She was treated at a hospital and released.

The round was matched by the State Crime Laboratory to a handgun that was being fired at the gun club, police said.

I must say this thread is VERY revealing.

Maybe the NRA should change the Gun Safety Rules on their website:

Know your target and what is beyond.
Be absolutely sure you have identified your target beyond any doubt. Equally important, be aware of the area beyond your target. This means observing your prospective area of fire before you shoot. Never fire in a direction in which there are people or any other potential for mishap. If there is a chance someone might get struck down range? Too bad, so sad. They shouldn't have picked THAT restaurant or their parents should bought somewhere else!. Think first. Shoot second anyway. After all, who is some pregnant woman to tell YOU you can't go plinkin' around town? You have property rights!

[DonP]

33. No, the NRA has it correct, no need to "amateur edit" their rules.

Every range I've ever been to, especially the ones that are NRA sanctioned, are very strict about firing positions, keeping everything aimed downrange, poor muzzle discipline is usually grounds for immediate expulsion.

Have you had a different range experience to share with us?

I'm sorry it upset you so much to even suggest that there have ever been any phony attempts to close ranges for selfish and frivolous purposes. This may not be one of them, but it has happened so I tend to wait and see what they find out a week or three down the road.

If the slug was actually matched to anyone at the range, then they should be prosecuted for assault, the case proven in court and the judgement enforced. Obviously they should also be expelled from the gun club.

[PavePusher]

34. Slow down a minute...

Can it be proven that it wasn't a bad bounce off a stone or hard-packed ground? Somehow, I think that would be a little difficult.

There are good, non-bad-intent reasons to not build a house down-range from a shooting range...

[Hassin Bin Sober]

35. Well you are the first "pro-gun" person to suggest the range and the shooter should be ...

... responsible for the rounds they send down-range. For that I commend you.

I live in the city. I would never buy a home near a 5 am licensed bar and then complain about the middle of the night "thump thump thump" noise and traffic in front of my home in.

If I ever move to the country I would never buy near a gun range and then complain about the "pop pop pop". Heck, I might be there shooting too (yes, I own guns) ... but stray bullets flying around a 1/4 mile from the range? You bet I would be pissed.

What amazes me is the supposed responsible shooters on this forum blaming the homeowners for buying near-by.

[DonP]

36. That's because it's happened before

Over the years there have been a number of situations that I alluded to, where homeowners try to gin up outrage and public sentiment about a non-existent danger. This may well be a case of a genuine danger, but it's probably more the individual than the range in and of itself.

I don't mean to be flippant, but that's probably why some of us older farts tend to be more skeptical than we might be otherwise.

The responsible shooters here are probably just waiting for more information to emerge. If someone misuses a firearm, they should be prosecuted, for the good of society and all the other law abiding gun owners. I live in Chicago and nothing pisses me off more than seeing a gang member commit a crime with a gun and then have it plea bargained away to a lesser charge so the guy can be released early.

But we've all seen the knee jerk reaction to shootings, like the thread we had here a week or two ago headlined; "Teacher shot by homeowner". We had one person after another accusing the homeowner of being bloodthirsty and a gun nut etc.

Then, a few days later, we find out the "teacher" was drunk, forced his way into a private home, and preceded up the stairs to where the homeowner had retreated to with his family and refused multiple orders to leave. Bottom line, he was an angry, mean drunk ... that happened to work as a teacher.

I was always taught that we should think that every bullet we fire has a lawyer attached to it.

[shadowrider]

37. Attached to it or in front of it?

Don't ask me about my wifes divorce attorney.

[DonP]

39. I share the much of that sentiment

My wife's first lawyer fired her after a few weeks when she discovered she had been fed a long line of BS.

But my own lawyer was a really nice guy and he and his wife helped me and my three kids deal with it, so they aren't all horrible. She didn't want the kids, the house or me, just a bunch of money. She went 0 for 4.

[Euromutt]

44. There's a range here in King County that had similar problems...

It's wedged into unincorporated territory between the cities of Kirkland and Redmond, and a couple of years ago, some twerp put a bullet over the berm, and it impacted in a subdivision that had sprung up downrange after the range was established, about three feet from the foot of a resident who was just getting out of her car. Calls for the range to be closed were not long in coming, unsurprisingly, whereupon the range was compelled to point out that the bullet in question came not from the weapon of a club member, but from the service weapon of an officer of the Kirkland PD, which uses the range for target practice. The officer in question had failed to observe the club's range rules.