Ohio Concealed Carry Editorial...must read

[Superfly]

The Plain Dealer is threatening to publish the name and address of every single person who seeks and obtains a permit to carry a firearm, as allowed by a provision in the CCW law signed by the governor yesterday.
----------
<snip>

Journalists will be able to access permit information because of their profession. But you - as a doctor, lawyer or factory worker - won't be able to determine whether your neighbor or ex-husband has obtained a permit.

<snip>

Since Taft chooses to hide behind journalists on this vital public-records matter, it is this newspaper's intention to obtain this information and publish it. Our readers deserve to know the identities of those who obtain permits to carry their guns in public. We hope other news organizations will do the same in their communities.

<snip>
----------

The question I pose today is, do you agree with this provision? Let's not argue about whether the CCW law is good or bad, let's focus on this provision.

I will post my comments in a later reply.

[Superfly]

1. Forgot the link...

Here you go:

Link

[Superfly]

2. I do not agree with this provision at all...

The protests of anti-CCW people should occur at the footsteps of the state capitol, not outside the home of the individuals who choose to protect themselves with a concealed firearm.

This provision is a flagrant violation of a person's right to privacy.

Although I am glad the CCW law is on the books in Ohio, I feel that the full weight of the pro RKBA folks in Ohio should focus on striking this ridiculous provision.

[demsrule4life]

3. They sound like another high class paper

check out the headline then what the story says in the same edition.

3 girls saved as suspect kills himself

The girls were found safe, and the suspect shot himself in the face after a police chase on Interstate 75 near the Tennessee line. Authorities said he was hospitalized in critical condition.

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1073647860138150.xml

Is he dead or in critical condition?

[Superfly]

5. Yeah, they're full of it...but

they have the power to get and publish the names of everybody who seeks and attains a CCW permit. That is a dangerous power to give the media, especially a paper as bad as this one.

[Township75]

4. It wouldn't stop me from getting a permit...

really, think about it. Most people that read your name in the paper will not know who you are, and won't bother memorizing every single name on the list.

And those that likely do know your name will know that you have guns, will know your position on guns, and would likeley believe you have a permit anyway.

So as I see it, it is poor tactic to dissuade people from getting permits, but it wouldn't stop me.

[Superfly]

6. Nor would it stop me...

but those who actively campaign against CCW laws would have your address. They can bring their fight to your doorstep.

[Township75]

10. That could be a problem; those Massive Moron Marchers have killed people..

in the past as has been documented before.

[CO Liberal]

61. Yeah, Right!!

People will protest outside a home where they KNOW someone has guns. Talk about a death wish.....

[SmokingLoon]

69. Are you making the unreasonable inference that

Law abiding gun owners will shoot protestors? If so, that is irresponsible of you. I thought you were more mature than that.

[CO Liberal]

74. It Takes a Split Second....

...and the heat of the moment for a "law-abiding" person to turn in to a killer. Personally, I think it's equally irresponsible to think that individual gun owners would find protesters outside their homes.

And at age 51, I think I'm PLENTY mature, thank you......

[slackmaster]

29. Nor I

The worst thing that could happen to me would be not getting hired by a potential employer, and one I wouldn't want to work for anyway.

[MrBenchley]

7. Says it all

"Taft and the legislature are demonstrating a flagrant disregard for the public's right to know. It is incumbent upon the news media to help right their wrong. "

[demsrule4life]

8. A 'where to steal guns list"

is always a good idea for keeping guns out of the hands of people that shouldnt have them.

[MrBenchley]

12. Too frigging funny

Not only do these neurotics have to tote popguns around every minute to feel safe, but they have to hide in among the unarmed.

[demsrule4life]

13. Paranoid doesn't work anymore

since you said yesterday that there is a lot of armed assholes walking around.


edited for exact quote

"Beccause he's a scumbag with a gun, dems. There's lots of them out there.."

A person that wants to carry a gun because of all the scumbags with guns is not paranoid since there are lots of scumbags that do carry guns.

[MrBenchley]

14. Too frigging funny...

And that by you is an excuse to hand out pistol permits to them?

When the handful of "enthusiasts" pimping for this idiotic measure held their first rally, the leader's neighbors soaked him with water pistols because they think he's a dangerous loony who shouldn't be packing heat.

http://www.cincypost.com/2003/09/29/guns092903.html

When they held their second rally, they went to an upscale shopping area where citizens felt safe...and they weren't wanted in the stores.

http://www.cleveland.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/1071570949109470.xml?nohio

And of course, all this comes at a time when thousands of Ohio citizens and their kids are being terrorized by a gun toting idiot sniping at schools, schoolbuses, homes and passing cars.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040106/ap_on_re_us/highway_shootings_7

[Superfly]

16. And for all that shit you just posted....

Ohio is now a fair issue state.

[demsrule4life]

17. To friggen funny

guess the joke is on him.

[Superfly]

18. Nah...he lives in New Jersey...

where crime is all but unheard of. He doesn't have to worry about armed people in the streets because their government enacted some of the strictest gun control and anti-crime measures in the United States.

Homicide rate 2nd highest in 20 years

"The 18 homicides in Cumberland County last year mark the second-highest number of murders here in two decades, but authorities have no easy answers to explain the surge."

Link
-----

Oh, and this is a state that the Brady Campaign saw fit enough to award of A- in their annual ratings.

Link

[slackmaster]

19. Brady Campaign never considers actual crime rates

They rate states based on a comparison of what laws are in place to their pseudoacademic position on what laws "should" be in place.

[RoeBear]

56. That's knee slapping funny...

"They rate states based on a comparison of what laws are in place to their pseudoacademic position on what laws "should" be in place."

An A+ in a murdeous hell hole is better than a D- in a safe community.
What crazy convoluted logic.

[demsrule4life]

77. Alabama received an F

We are doing something right.

[MrBenchley]

78. Yeah, dems? What IS Alabama doing right?

It ranks at the bottom of the barrel in education spending and per capita income.. It's near-synonymous with bigotry and home to Roy Moore.

Alabama ranks 45th among states in the percent of children who are poor.

Percent of Alabama children under age 18 who are poor.....21.5%

Maximum TANF cash assistance for a family of three in Alabama......$164 per month

Percent of eligible persons in Alabama who receive food stamps....62%

Percent of children under age six in Alabama with all parents in the labor force....58.4%

Only families with incomes below $18,048 qualify for child care help in Alabama (federal law allows incomes up to $36,525).

http://www.sodomylaws.org/usa/alabama/alnews08.htm

http://archive.aclu.org/news/n081497b.html

Yeah, you're doing a great job down there, if you like ignorant poor people suffering from gun shot wounds, And the folks of Alabama love guns so much they didn't even blink when their fellow gun-lovers in Al Quaeda needed a place to train.....

"A training camp linked to Islamic militants has been operating in Alabama, and European law enforcement officials believe Muslim extremists were using it to prepare for a holy war."

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/WNT_alabama_camp020725.html

[MrBenchley]

79. A bit more Alabama

"A child in Alabama is born into poverty every 38 minutes.
A child in Alabama is abused or neglected every 53 minutes.
A child in Alabama dies before her first birthday every 15 hours.
A child or teen in Alabama is killed by gunfire every 4 days."

www.childrensdefense.org/states/al.pdf

[demsrule4life]

80. And my wife is gone for a year

so I have alto of time on my hands to aggravate anti-gunners.

[MrBenchley]

84. Or making them laugh their asses off...

[demsrule4life]

81. And my wife is gone for a year

so I have alto of time on my hands to aggravate anti-gunners.

[demsrule4life]

82. Looks like Alabama parents care more about the health

of their kids a bit more then the NJ parents do. http://www.childrensdefense.org/hs_tp_immuniz_2000.php

[MrBenchley]

83. Yeah, surrrrrrrrre....

[demsrule4life]

85. Yep, Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

If you wan't we can go tit for tat all day and guess what it will prove? That we don't live in a perfect world.

[MrBenchley]

86. Or that Alabama's a right wing shithole

And a living example of why conservatism doesn't work at all.

[slackmaster]

87. The GOP might appreciate MrBenchley's post

For giving the impression that the Democratic Party doesn't care about getting votes in Alabama.

[MrBenchley]

21. Yeah, it's called bad government, a GOP staple

[Superfly]

22. To frigging funny....

I bet you are glad you live in a gun-free utopia, then.

[MrBenchley]

23. I'm glad I don't live in a GOP shithole

dominated by asswipes beholding to the corrupt gun industry.

[demsrule4life]

24. You never know how things will change with time

who is to say that NJ won't ever be dominated by assipes beholding to the corrup gun industry.

[MrBenchley]

28. Gee, dems, who's surprised to see a post like that

from the RKBA crowd?

[slackmaster]

31. Take a quick look at the history of California politics

It swings like a pendulum do. I like this Web site:

http://www.infospect.com/Governors.htm

[Superfly]

27. Correction...that's "Lunatic asswipes"

Thank you very much

[SmokingLoon]

67. You are wrong again.

The "upscale" shopping area one was about about number 12. I attended ones in Northside, Clifton, Norwood, and Manchester. By the way, look at the article you referenced in the Cincinnati paper. 75 pro, 6 anti lunatics aiming water guns. Nice friends to have, eh?

[MrBenchley]

68. Yeah, give me the water pistol bunch any day

They seem to have a sense of humor....and they know a dangerous nutcase when they see one....

[SmokingLoon]

70. COMPLETE LIST OF DEFENSE WALKS IN OHIO

http://www.ofccpac.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=60

[MrBenchley]

71. "I'd rather not have people like him packing heat,"

said the leader's next door neighbor.

[SmokingLoon]

72. Next door neighbor is nuts.

I met the neighbor at the walk. The neighbor was clearly afraid of the guns themselves! Absurd!

[MrBenchley]

73. Yeah, surrrrrrrrrrre....

I don't think so.

[CO Liberal]

63. More Like a "Where To Get Shot" List

IMHO.

[MrBenchley]

65. Wasn't the whole purpose of this idiotic law

to keep a handful of neurotics from feeling that they were going to get robbed any moment because they could lug their pistol around at every moment?

Seems like it makes it more likely, to listen to all the caterwauling here.

[slackmaster]

66. Uh, no

The purpose of shall-issue laws is to allow honest, decent citizens and residents the ability to exercise their constitutional right to keep and bear arms discretely whenever they choose to do so; and on a level playing field without the possibility of being denied that right for arbitrary or capricious reasons.

Seems like it makes it more likely, to listen to all the caterwauling here.

The only caterwauling I am reading seems to be coming from the side that LOST the debate.

:D

[slackmaster]

11. Does the public have a right to know the names of rape victims?

How about women who are being stalked and threatened by an estranged male partner? Some women carry guns to protect themselves from known threats.

If you were a diamond courier or accountant who carries a gun to help guard against robbery, would you want your name published in the local news?

[Baclava]

9. Something about "Rome in a day"... but...

I think the CCW holders should take out full page advertisements which list those who are NOT carrying!

Better still, make it a listing of all the "journalists" who are not on the concealed carry list, giving their workplace, home address, and vehicle license info...wonder how that would go over...

[timebandit]

15. publishing names of ccw holders

Here in Virginia we had a newspaper that did that.
They quit when it became too costly to devote all that
space free when it could be used for ads. So much for
principle.

[slackmaster]

20. I'll bet some of that space was used for cigarette ads

The Horror, The Horror!

[Romulus]

25. I voted "other"

(nomex suit on, but probably not needed)

I think that these records should be made public, like all the other public licensing records. You can check to see who has a driver's license, marrraige license, hunting license, contractor's license, etc., to this should be no different. Government is performing a ministerial function in issuing these licenses and taxpayers should be able to request these records to assess how the programs are doing,

For instance, the CAL CCW law got changed to prohibit disclosure of CCW info - seemingly as a way to cover up the cronyism abuses inherent in the unfettered discretionary-issue system.

[MrBenchley]

26. Akron's Mayor Speaks Out

"Akron Mayor Don Plusquellic is not quite as big a fan of the old days.
``We took guns away from the Wild, Wild West more than 100 years ago,'' he said, ``and we're revisiting it. I really think it's a sad day.
``It's a real indication of the wrong direction that the state of Ohio has gone with these right-wing folks down there driving the issues. I cannot believe... the typical soccer moms in suburbia who have helped put these people in office are going to feel good when they go to the nearest Wendy's... and find a bunch of people with guns strapped to their hips.'' "

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/local/7668714.htm

Do I need to tell you he's a Democrat?

[Superfly]

33. I'm surprised he didn't predict

blood running through the streets and shootouts in grocery stores.

Sheesh! Doesn't he know that his safe little world is going to come crashing down all around him? He should probably check himself into a padded cell, just to be sure.

[MrBenchley]

38. Gee, fly

as mayor of a big city he alrady knnows the toll gunns take...and knows handing out pistol permits to neurotics isn't going to do anything but make life less safe for everyone.

"Doesn't he know that his safe little world is going to come crashing down all around him? "
DO tell us why, fly...considering that last election he trounced the GOP asswipe running against him for his FIFTH term...and beat back a GOP plan to force him out of office with that tired "term limits" horseshit too.

[Superfly]

40. Neurotics?

The individuals applying for these permits first have to undergo a criminal background check, then be trained in the use of firearms, and then have their private information made public for publication by shady newspapers like the Plain Dealer.

Yes, anybody who goes through so much trouble to be in compliance with the law is a neurotic.

Oh, but what does this sheriff say:

"I am in favor of this law," said Muskingum County Sheriff Bob Stephenson. "A lot of people want to carry guns just for their own protection, and I feel they should have a right to do that. I figure if you want to carry a weapon, I think you should be able to."

And here's a link for you :-)

Link

[MrBenchley]

41. Yeah...

The guy heading the group is considered a screwloose by his own neighbors, as we saw further up the thread.

And the "arduous training" consists of hanging around a shooting gallery for 12 hours.

I notice you dodged the question, fly. Tell us why "the mayor's safe little world" is going to come crashing down? Because some numbnutz with a gun is going to take a potshot at him?

[Superfly]

42. More spin, who's surprised?

From the link I gave 2 posts up...

"they must go through a 12-hour training course and receive certification in the use of a firearm from a licensed instructor."

[slackmaster]

43. California requires only 8 hours of classroom instruction

Plus a shooting test.

Most of the material taught in the classroom covers state laws that define appropriate defensive use of a gun, legal pitfalls, and penalties for people who screw up. It gives permit holders a healthy respect for the law and a clear understanding of the gravity of their responsibilities.

It's so much easier for a True Believer against concealed carry to shrug it off as "hanging around a shooting range" than to actually research what's required to get a permit.

[MrBenchley]

45. In other words

they have to hang around a shooting gallery for 12 hours and pass a fee to the owner.

Still dodging the question I see.....why is "the Mayor's safe little world going to come crashing down"? Because the kind of people who are going to be lugging pistols around legally now are nuts?

[Superfly]

47. Oh, I'm sorry...

I forgot to paste "SARCASM" all over my post.

[MrBenchley]

49. I see you're STILL dodging the question.

"Superfly 
33. I'm surprised he didn't predict
blood running through the streets and shootouts in grocery stores.
Sheesh! Doesn't he know that his safe little world is going to come crashing down all around him? "
I feel safe in saying as mayor of a city he's already seen enough shootouts in grocery stores to sicken him...and knows that having imbeciles with popguns in their pockets on the streets and in the stores is going to make life significantly worse for people in Akron.

[Superfly]

50. I dismiss your question as being stupid.

Therefore, I will give it all the attention it deserves...namely, none.

[MrBenchley]

54. The question was what your comment MEANT, fly....

But I guess now you've answered...it was just somebody being "stupid."

I'm sure it wasn't you trying to pimp for some Republican to beat a five time Democratic mayor.

[Superfly]

55. My comment, as I clearly stated, was sarcasm.

Clear, now?

[RoeBear]

52. CCW permit holders commit crimes...

...at rates lower than the police. So why should he worry about them?

[RoeBear]

46. And what prevents that now?

I much prefer 'fair issue' CCW compared to 'Big Brother issue' CCW.

[CO Liberal]

75. And Based On Many of the Pro-Gunners Here In Colorado...

...I'm beginning to think that "non-issue" CCW makes more sense. For example, any of you who can stomach listening to Sean Hannity's radio pukefest may have heard a guy who identifies himself as "Ron from Colorado Springs". The guy's a certifyable nut-case and 100% pro-gun. It's morons like Ron that make me favor gun control.

[MrBenchley]

76. Sad to say, your state also has Rick Stanley

"gun rights" nutcase deluxe, who was recently jailed for threatening a judge with his "toys".

[RoeBear]

88. So because of a hand full...

..of voices on the radio; other good, decent,law-abiding people must be denied the ability to defend themselves while away from their homes. What sense does that make?

And please define non-issue.

[slackmaster]

59. General question for all Amateur Internet Psychologists

Is someone who posts on DU 50 times a day more or less neurotic than someone who posts only 20 times a day?

:freak:

[alwynsw]

62. Big city?

I live on a farm and 217,00 isn't a big city IMHO. Fifth term? You don't usually get a "mayor for life" in big cities.

(Just a little annoying nitpicking.)

[slackmaster]

34. Ohio was never part of the Wild, Wild West

I've always considered it to be the heart of the Middle East.

Do I need to tell you he's a Democrat?

No more than I need to tell you he's a hysterical knee-jerk nutjob.

[alwynsw]

64. Well, it was until about 1810

Oh! That's right! The west didn't get wild until Sam Colt invented the wheel gun. It's the gun's fault!

But, if I follow that logic, I still live in the wild mid-south.

Never mind.

[RoeBear]

39. Do I need to tell you that he is...

...misinformed?

[davidinalameda]

30. is the information public record

then what's the problem

they publish marriage info, real estate info and these don't seem to have any effect on people getting married or selling or buying property

if it's public info, that their right under the 1st Amendment

[RoeBear]

32. How about publish a list of...

...who belongs to what political party?

[slackmaster]

37. Or who has filed a claim for AFDC, unemployment, or disability insurance?

Makes about as much sense as publishing gun permit holders' names.

[davidinalameda]

44. I believe that info is public info

or how else would you get all those annoying phone calls before elections

[slackmaster]

48. Looking up public information as needed is not the same as publishing it

IMO a responsible paper would not publish that kind of information as a matter or course other than birth, deaths, marriages, and divorces. I can see publishing everything you can find about a candidate for public office as well.

[RoeBear]

51. So do you want to see it all published?

Should your party affiliation along with who has filed a claim for AFDC, unemployment, or disability insurance be printed in your local newspaper also? If you say yes you're being consistent, if you say no but a list of CCW permit holders should be listed I'd like to know why.

[demsrule4life]

53. No wonder identity theft

is so easy.

[RoeBear]

89. You seem like a very reasonable person...

..who answers questions with much thought. So I would really like to hear a response, please, to my question:

Do you think it is proper to list CCW permit holders in the newspaper?

[davidinalameda]

90. I wouldn't take an ad out doing it

but if the paper wants to use it's space doing so, that's their business

I think that they definately have an agenda in the matter. What probably needs to be done is the law amended so this information stays private.

[MrBenchley]

35. Actually

the fight is to keep it out of the public record...because the gun lobby doesn't want voters to be able to find out that, thanks to the GOP, the twitchy guy that they tell their kids to steer clear of was able to get a pistol permit easy as pie..

[slackmaster]

36. There are degrees of how "public" information ought to be

Everyone's federal income tax returns are public information. Anyone can look up anyone else's tax records. But would it be right for a newspaper to post as a matter of course everyone's returns or even a summary, say just your name, Social Security Number, Adjusted Gross Income, and Total Tax?

[milliner]

58. I think yes

if the paper wants to print fine with me.

I am doubtful that after the initial shock value the papers would continue to do so. Also the paper is opening their own can of worms.

I believe the most vocal and threatening opposition will come from all those outspoken opponents of guns that have taken the time to get the proper paperwork to carry a concealed weapon. And maybe the brother-in-law, or cousin, or close confidant or trusted employee that has a carry permit.

The dirty secret is that a lot of very liberal political types say that more restrictive gun laws are needed and will campaign for them but they themselves are packing. (or someone very close to them has a license and uses that license buy and carry a gun on the streets.) Its called plausible denyability...'Hell no I don't own a gun because guns are evil and destuctive.....I really don't know why four out of the five aides that are at my side 18 hours a day have a carry permit, never discussed, and if they in fact are packing I will look into the reasons why and I promise I will get to the truth. I want to insure the voters that guns are evil and dangerous and my position has not changed.'

My brother got done with a legal deposition about 6:00pm in the middle of a city of a little more than 1 million people. One of the attorneys asked if my brother would like to join a bunch of the lawyers for a drink down on the street, and my brother accepted. There were 5 women and 3 men, plus my brother at the table and when the discussion turned to politics, guns, and gun control came up. Anyway, four of the five women had guns in their purses and one of the guys carried a gun in his brief case. The other two guys carried a gun in their car and all were legal, it was apparent from the discussion, that all but one, or maybe two were very pro gun control, the thinking was that, 'I have mine, and I always will because of my stature and connections'.

In a perfect world all of the people that have carry permits should be put on the web and any one could search a name and find out if they do carry. But along with that, the rest of public info should be web based also, AFDC, divorce settlements, Driver license and the info like, does person A have a CDL, and how many violations in the last 10 years.

The main point is that I don't think gun owners care much and the political advantage to be gained by full disclosure is huge. But, anticipate that lots of pro gun control people would petition for an exemption to the rule of public disclosure and the appropriate authorities would grant the exemption so as to keep embarrassment factor to the minimum. And this abjection would be attributed to the pro gun folks.

[slackmaster]

60. Interesting perspective

A toast to the post.

:toast:

[DonP]

57. Publish reporters and editors names and addresses too

I don't mind as long as the paper publishes their own personal data at the same time.

After all we have a right to know don't we?

Media people should not be able to hide behind that silly out of date 1st amendment. We all should have a right to know where the editors and reporters live, and where their children attend school too.

IMNSO this crosses the line between journalism and extortion. "If you apply for a permit we will expose you to risk".

The first CCW holder that is robbed or has their home invaded or burglarized should sue the paper out of existence.

[davidinalameda]

91. no you don't have a right to know who works for the paper

it's a private business

[Moderator]

92. locking

the thread is getting too big