I love it when the NRA brings God into the discussion.......

[KansasVoter]

"This decision makes absolutely clear that the Second Amendment protects the God-given right of self-defense for all law-abiding Americans, period."

Mentioning God always gets the right wing excited. God Bless America!

Colbert really made a lot of jokes about it tonight. Catch the rerun if you can. Funny.

[Puzzler]

1. Make up your mind NRA :

... is it a God-given right, or a man-given (as in "Second Amendment") right?

[KansasVoter]

2. You are going to Hell for asking that question!!!

[Statistical]

7. The 2nd amendment GIVES nothing just like the 1st amendment gives nothing.

Is basic civics no longer taught?

The philosophy of the founding fathers is that there are "certain unalienable rights". If you are religious you could say they are "God given rights". If you are not you could say they are human or natural rights. The point is the rights pre-exist the Constitution. Man can't give what isn't his to give. Think about it for a second. If someone gives you something it isn't a right. It was theirs to give (or take back). At best it is a privilege. You have no protection, no guarantee. Maybe you get the privelege, but maybe you piss off the person granting it and lose it, or maybe you children lose it, or your entire line. A century prior to the revolution that was the standard political philosophy. God granted all power, rights, and authority to the King. The King is Supreme and Sovereign. Anything he grants is just that a privilege.

The Bill of Rights grants NOTHING. The Bill of Rights simply is a set of restrictions on the government for the protection of rights that already exist. The reason for breaking with England is that England transgressed those rights and in doing so lost the legitimacy of rule. This is one of the elements that made the revolution so "radical" & "progressive" for its time. It codified the concept that rights came neither from King nor man (governments) but were unalienable. They couldn't be given or taken away. How could the king take what wasn't his to begin with?

They said so in plain English when they wrote the reason for breaking the political bounds with King George:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

[geckosfeet]

11. Ahhh, the biological process of my ancestors has endowed me with certain unalienable rights.

It is all so clear now. I was BORN with a set of rights first documented sometime after men learned to write.

[Statistical]

13. It is sad that you don't believe in human rights.

Luckily the first progressives did.

[KansasVoter]

18. You are way over the top. But that is your god givin right!

[geckosfeet]

52. I believe in human rights. I don't believe hogwash.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KansasVoter]

4. I quoted the NRA and their comment about using God in a gun debate.

And how the right wing loves that.

And Steven Colbert, a liberal host, commented and ran a story about it.

It would only offend a right winger. Are you saying Colbert making jokes about it offends you?

Am I wrong?

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KansasVoter]

6. See my % of murders by firearms and let me know if that is enough detail for you. LOL

[proteus_lives]

8. I love it when KansasVoter brings the NRA into the discussion.

It lets him pretend he has a valid point.

[KansasVoter]

15. Colbert did also. Mad at him too? He is a liberal commentator? bug you?

[proteus_lives]

28. Mad at you?

Bemused at your school-boy antics is closer.

It kind of hard to be mad at children, they don't know any better.

[costahawk1987]

9. Ted Nugent infected their entire organization

with Cat Scratch Fever. In addition to making people crazy, it also makes them go blind. Don't share the range with NRA members!

[baldguy]

10. When Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers," he wasn't talking about the Colt 45.

[shadowrider]

12. Doesn't your head hurt from hating an organization so much? n/t

[KansasVoter]

16. Ask Colbert that? Of course I am sure you are mad at him too?

[shadowrider]

29. I'm not asking anyone. I asked you. n/t

[benEzra]

14. But it's OK when the gun-control lobby says that Gawd Hates Guns, right?

http://www.godnotguns.org/

Practically every side of every debate invokes the $DEITY parameter to justify their position. Of course, the concept of rights as they were understood when the Second Amendment was written does come out of the idea of natural rights, that all people "are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights..."

The Germanic word "God" is one label for that creator and bestower of human rights and human dignity; another one is the Arabic term "Allah." Richard Dawkins would undoubtedly use a different term, as would followers of the Buddhist, Shinto, etc. traditions.

Even from the perspective of evolutionary biology, humans are carnivorous apex predators finely tuned for hunting; no land animal on this planet can outrun a fit human over a sufficiently long distance, and no land animal on this planet can avoid falling prey to a sufficiently experienced human, guns or not. Humans all come from the factory not only with primate teeth and claws, but with brains wired to allow the wielding of implements in our hands as if they were extensions of our own limbs, a mental mapping capability that is almost unique in biology. So, yeah, you can even argue a natural right to weapons and/or self-defense from evolutionary biology.

But the idea of natural, preexisting rights is one that progressives wholeheartedly embrace; just because the government of, say, South Africa during apartheid declared certain people's rights revoked, didn't mean that those people did not retain those rights. Rights are not granted by arbitrary institutions; they transcend those institutions.

[KansasVoter]

17. If you read my post, which you didn't.....

I was commenting on the Colbert show? Do you know that show? It is a progressive leaning show! Check it out!

[benEzra]

19. Umm, no, I did read your post, and I responded to it.

This part.

"This decision makes absolutely clear that the Second Amendment protects the God-given right of self-defense for all law-abiding Americans, period."

Mentioning God always gets the right wing excited. God Bless America!

I read that as a continuation of your "Anybody Who Disagrees With Me On Guns Is A Right Winger" theme that you've been singing for a few days now. But whatever.

Yes, Colbert is funny. Sometimes too enamored of the Third Way'ers on guns, but then again he's a comedian, not a lawyer.

[KansasVoter]

20. No, you are way to defensive on every post.....

Mentioning God does always get the right wing excited. You know it if you have followed politics for ANY amount of time.

And the NRA has a lot of supporters who are right wing, once again I am sure you know that. If you do not think the NRA has a lot of right wing supporters then we can debate that in another thread.

So by using GOD the NRA is appealing to their right wing supporters.

How is this a slam against anyone but the right wing?

[benEzra]

21. Had it come from anyone else, you'd be correct.

From someone who preaches that any progressive who strays from the One True Way on the gun issue isn't a true progressive, forgive me if I take that as another example of the meme.

Yes, I'm aware that a lot of right-wingers own guns and support an expansive reading of the 2ndA (at least until it collides with their narrow reading of the other amendments, i.e. the Bush proposal to summarily deny gun rights to people on the secret terrah blacklists). Half of gun owners are repubs, after all. But right wingers are a subset of gun owners and RKBA advocates, not the other way around.

[KansasVoter]

22. You contend only 1/2 of gun owners are repubs?

It is a 50% / 50% split? Interesting.

And once again you are wrong about my stance. Any progressive who send money to support the NRA is not helping th eprogressive cause and is actually hurting it! You cannot be a true progressive and financially support the NRA as they donate millions to defeat good libs on a single issue.

People have wrote me PMs saying they are pro-guns and CCW and would never support the piece of shit NRA. I can respect that.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. That's why it's important to remove certain 'gun control' tenets from the party plank

and for progressives to embrace all of our civil rights. The NRA has, and will endorse pro-RKBA democrats and progressives.

The Bill of Rights doesn't go 1,3,4,5...

[KansasVoter]

24. But still sending money to the NRA hurts the party. But if you are OK with then don't call yourself.

a good democrat.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. I am not a democrat.

I am a progressive. I will not give them (the NRA) one thin dime, for reasons... tangential to yours. My problem is more with their dishonesty/smear campaigns, or artifical framing of the gun control debate.

But, the simplest solution to your problem is for progressives to embrace the 2nd Amendment's current legal understanding, and reap the financial benefits of NRA endorsement.


Edited first paragraph for clarity.

[KansasVoter]

33. I understand what you are saying........

And agree. But I am a progressive also and do not agree with CC. I am sure you have a million reasons why I am wrong but it will not change my mind and I cannot change yours. The NRA would rate me an F I am sure just over the CC stance. Some other Dems do not agree with CC and I still think they are progressives.

[rrneck]

41. What relationship

does progressivism have to concealed carry?

[MicaelS]

44. You can personally be against CCW as long as you

Do not try to infringe on others' rights. Same attitude applies to abortion, or pornography.

But, here is the issue distilled down to it's essence......

Supporting guns bans costs the Democratic Party, and Democratic politicians, elections.

It most assuredly did in 1994, did it not? Was not the election of a Republican majority in congress personally disastrous for Bill Clinton and our country? He even admitted, later, that the gun ban cost the Democratic Party control of Congress. And yet Clinton pushed the AWB that caused the Republican wins in 1994, and his subsequent impeachment. I bet if he knew then what he knows now, he would have never pushed that ban.

As a life-long Texan, I tell you now, that George Bush was President twice because he was Governor of Texas. He was Governor of Texas because the then Governor of Texas, Ann Richards, refused to sign the CCW bill in Texas. Bush said he would if elected and did. And the rest is history. I believe with that if Richards had signed the bill, Bush would have never become President. It is that simple.

You don't like handguns, CCW and semi-automatic weapons? Fine, don't buy them or carry. But history should have taught you by now, that gun bans, gun control, gun prohibition whatever term you want to use, is political suicide for Democrats. I'm sure you don't like that, but it is a fact.

[KansasVoter]

54. Then explain 2006 and 2008???

[AtheistCrusader]

55. Can you point to any increases in federal gun control during that time?

In 2k8 we knew the Heller case was coming up as well.

Part the reason I was ok with supporting Obama, even though he prominently called for the re-instatement of the AWB on his change.gov site, is that I knew damn well he wouldn't do anything about it, and that it was a dead issue. Early on I would have preferred Hillary, but all's well that ends well, and he's made a better president than I think she would have.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Glassunion]

32. "But still sending money to the NRA hurts the party."

Nope... Did you you get your excel sheet from them yet? Or was the information too tough to handle?

I found some fun information that I think will make your head explode. Working on getting the post together just for you later today.

[KansasVoter]

34. My head will not explode, and I would not trust your information anyway.....

I'll get my membership packet or excel spreadsheet soon enough.

And if my excel spreadsheet shows the NRA supports Dems 50/50 I will post it here and apologize.

[Statistical]

46. As I recall you were the one who sent money to the NRA.

So are you going to call yourself a "bad democract".

Or is it one rule for you and another for everyone else?

[X_Digger]

26. Pugh or harris say the numbers are close..

http://www.gallup.com/poll/21496/gun-ownership-higher-among-republicans-than-democrats.aspx

That is the pivot of the question we're looking at, though, still trying to find the other poll.

iirc, it's ~50%(R) and ~50%(D&I).

[benEzra]

27. Yup (presumably speaking of the subset registered to vote or identifying with a party).

Repubs own guns at somewhat higher rates, but are a smaller segment of the population, so the total population is comparable.

For example, see the Nov. 2005 Gallup poll "Gun Ownership and Use in America." They work it from the front end, e.g. percentage of registered repubs, Dems, and indies who own a gun, but I have also seen it worked from the back end, i.e. what percentage of gun owners report repub, Dem, or indie affiliation.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/20098/gun-ownership-use-america.aspx

According to those figures, Repubs are somewhat more likely to personally own a gun than indies and Dems (41%, 27%, 23%), due in part to the way a few urban areas with very low lawful-ownership rates bias the figures against Dems, but if you apply those percentages to the number of registered repubs, Dems, and indies nationwide, I believe Dem and indie gun owners equal or slightly outnumber repub gun owners overall (because such a small percentage of the population is repub). In less urban swing states, I suspect Dem and indie gun owners probably outnumber repub gun owners by a significant margin, but don't have any data broken down by state. Also, to my knowledge the study does not correct for underreporting, so those numbers may actually be somewhat higher than reported for those in less gun-friendly areas or demographics.

Editor and Publisher reported on a different Gallup poll in early 2005 and gave slightly higher numbers:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000745373

That link is now dead, unfortunately, but I did capture the text:

Press Image of Gun Owner Not Far Off, Except for All Those Women

By E&P Staff

Published: January 04, 2005 10:00 AM ET

NEW YORK A Gallup Poll released this morning reveals that the average American owns 1.7 guns, with the average gun owner possessing 4.4 of them. The press is quick to promote stereotypes of the average gun owner as a white male, most likely Republican, living in a rural area or the South. But how well does reality match the image? The new Gallup Poll shows that the stereotype is not that far off, but with several twists.

For one thing, one out of three American women say they own a gun. That's not much below the overall mark of 40% for all American adults.

As for other elements of the stereotype: More than half (53%) of Republicans own guns, compared with 36% of political independents and 31% of Democrats. Whites are more likely than nonwhites to own (44% and 24%, respectively), according to Gallup.

[cowman]

30. Thats your opinion which is just that

a bullshit opinion. I'm a true progressive despite your proclomation that I'm not because I support NRA backed dems. You do not get to decide who is progressive and who is not, at least not in my case, now if you want to go down that road, then you are not a progressive because you would deny us the right to choose who we support if you had your way.

[KansasVoter]

35. No problem with you supporting pro gun dems, a problem with you....

sending money to a group that campaigns against Dems over one issue when the dem supports 10 other great progressive issues.

And the ame group rating Obama an F which means you were OK with McCain getting millions from the NRA.

You are to clueless to understand so I will stop trying.

[cowman]

36. Thats YOUR

problem not mine, you don't get to tell me who I can and cannot send money to and IF I did send money to the NRA doesn't mean that I'm not a good progressive despite your assertions to the contrary

[KansasVoter]

38. Send money to the damn RNC if you want, just don't call yourself a progressive!

[cowman]

43. Once again

who the fuck are you to tell me what I can or cannot call myself?

[Glassunion]

48. I call myself Devine, but that's only on the weekends when my wife is not around...

Wait.. What?

[oneshooter]

50. Once again"Lockstep with me!! I am a REAL Democrat!!! n/t

[cowman]

37. Did it

ever occur to you why they gave an F to Obama? He has a dismal record on 2nd Amend issues while an IL sen.

[KansasVoter]

40. I don't give a shit why........

Any group who would donate money against Obama because of a single issue is not a friend of the progressive cause.

I am done responding to you. You don't get it and I cannot explain it any simpler.

[cowman]

45. I do get it

you are and elitist and it's either your way or the highway, so why don't you just hit the highway?

[KansasVoter]

53. Wow, clever. LOL

[cowman]

56. About as clever as your asnine posts n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

42. And how did that work out for McCain, hmmm?

[Glassunion]

47. "McCain getting millions from the NRA"

Um. No.

NRA contibutions during the 2008 elections = McCain, John (R) $1,250.00

Your at least off by $1,998,750.00 assuming that by millions (plural) you meant at least more than 1.99 million.

[SteveM]

39. It's a new cat! But... but he crapped, just like the old one. In his crypt. nt

[Glassunion]

49. Well put.

Well put indeed.

[SteveM]

51. Depends on which god. I kinda like Artemis. (sp?) nt