Question for the CCW'ers.

[Glassunion]

My state does not require fingerprinting for CCW (LTFA in our state). I have not given it much thought since my state does not, but I was wondering if anyone here who has a CCW (or equivalent) and was fingerprinted for the permit. How do you feel about that?

Personally I think that fingerprinting is something we do to criminals, but perhaps I am overreacting. Perhaps I am just jaded by the Bush era “If you’ve done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about” mantra on fighting terrah and catchin terrahists being used to slowly strip away our privacy, freedom of association, civil rights, etc...

What happens with the fingerprints when they are taken?
Are they retained for a period of time or forever?
At the time of application are they run against any databases or unsolved crimes?
Is it an effective crime fighting tool?

Just curious…

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

1. I was fingerprinted...

It was no big deal. It's actually an electronic scan so there's no inky mess.
I was not concerned because by the time I got my CCW I already owned several NFA items.
I'm sure I was already "in the system"...

Given the choice or realistic possibility, I would oppose fingerprinting.
But ya gotta follow the rules to play the game in Ohio so I'm not too concerned.

[Axle_techie]

2. I do not believe fingerprinting is anymore effective than

serial numbering and registering ammo. The basic fact is that if you are going to go through the process of obtaining a CCW, you are most likely not going to be using said firearm in the commission of a crime. If you wanted to commit a crime, why would you bother with CCW or weapon registration?

[Statistical]

5. Stop using logic you will just confuse people.

Given CCW almost never commit violent crimes the fingerprint requirement is simply to "do something". I haven't seen any study ever that indicates it is effective at anything except making CCW more complex, more intrusive and thus less attractive. which is likely the reason for requiring them.

[thetonka]

6. If you were going to commit a crime

why would you even obtain a firearm legally? Wouldn't it make more sense to use a stolen weapon, any weapon, if you were to commit a crime? I've actually experienced crimes against me by individuals with firearms, and in both cases the weapons were stolen.

I'm not against fingerprinting, but this idea that fingerprinting people who want to legally obtain or carry a firearm will lesson gun crimes is idiocy. Criminals, by definition, do not follow the law. Why would anyone think that any gun law would change this is beyond me.

And no I am not against gun laws. I just wish people would be honest and realistic about them.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

7. That argument doesn't really work...

If you had a firearm/ammo registered to you of course you would not use it in a crime.
But when you are in a fingerprint database do you plan on using a different set of fingers to commit a crime?

Which brings me to an interesting off topic question... Do fingerprints on empty ammo casings survive cycling/firing through a handgun or revolver? Are they recoverable? (I once saw Batman digitally reconstruct a shattered bullet still in a chunk of drywall and "scan" the reconstructed fingerprint to find the shooter... lol :eyes:)

[Statistical]

8. fingerprints are recoverable from shell casings.

The heat doesn't damage fingerprint oil. It simply dries it out creating a very resilient print. The problem is that most prints are either partials due to size/shape of round or smudged due to the manner that rounds are handled. Take a casing and hold it between your finger tips, only a small portion touches right? Unless you roll/rotate the shell along your fingerpad like you are doing a Police fingerprinting, it is very unlikely you will just happen to leave a usable print.

It is just luck to get a usable print off a round casing. Sometimes crimes are solved by luck. No other evidence but the Police get the one is a thousand that a perfect print matches a previous criminal record.

Always figured a smart thief could take brass from a range find one with a good print on it, reload it using gloves, and have that be the ammo for murder weapon. While it is unlikely the Police would ever find the prints owner it could create some "reasonable doubt" for the perp if he got caught. "Please have the prosecution explain how the print on the casing left at the scene wasn't mine". :)

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

9. I'll have to remember to unload and wipe down all my loaded ammo then.

Given the amount of ammo I have loaded in magazines I should be set for things to after work for the next week or two... lol.

[thetonka]

10. Or consider the serial number proposals

while tracking where the ammunition came from is interesting in reality in a criminal case it would do more to create reasonable doubt if stolen than it would be to prove guilt.

As a comparison, lets think about photo radar. If the photo only has the license plate number where is the proof the owner actually was driving the car? What if the car was stolen, or borrowed?

The ONLY thing in this whole discussion that makes sense is a fingerprint off a gun or empty case that is beyond a doubt the fingerprint of the criminal in question, and this evidence is used as supporting evidence to remove doubt not as the basis of the evidence.

[spin]

17. Welcome to DU. (n/t)

[Axle_techie]

11. No, but you may use gloves

[thetonka]

3. Fingerprinting is not just for Criminals

There are a number of things that require fingerprints to be taken, and the vast majority of them have nothing to do with being a criminal or having a CCW. I am not a criminal and do not have a CCW, yet I have been fingerprinted for 3 seperate things, all legitimate, legal, and beneficial to myself and my career.

[HockeyMom]

34. Correct

I have worked in schools in two different states and had to be fingerprinted. Same is true for working with the mentally disabled population.

[Hoopla Phil]

35. Agreed. Fingerprinting should be required before being allowed to vote too.

It really is the only way to protect the integrity of our voting system. I'm sure you will agree with this.

[Statistical]

4. What happens to the fingerprints really depends on the state. VA destroys them (or says they do).

There is no uniformity just as there is no uniformity in issuing standards.

VA destroys prints and most cities no longer require them. It didn't matter for me because anyone in the military has already been printed. FBI maintains multiple databases. They have databases on convicted felons, databases on fugitives, databases on fingerprint evidence, and non-criminal databases. To my knowledge there is no way to "get out" of the database once you are added. I might be wrong though.

VA statute on fingerprinting & CCW.

As a condition for issuance of a concealed handgun permit, the applicant shall submit to fingerprinting if required by local ordinance in the county or city where the applicant resides and provide personal descriptive information to be forwarded with the fingerprints through the Central Criminal Records Exchange to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the purpose of obtaining criminal history record information regarding the applicant, and obtaining fingerprint identification information from federal records pursuant to criminal investigations by state and local law-enforcement agencies. However, no local ordinance shall require an applicant to submit to fingerprinting if the applicant has an existing concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this section and is applying for a new five-year permit pursuant to subsection I. Where feasible and practical, the local law-enforcement agency may transfer information electronically to the State Police instead of inked fingerprint cards. Upon completion of the criminal history records check, the State Police shall return the fingerprint cards to the submitting local agency or, in the case of scanned fingerprints, destroy the electronic record. The local agency shall then promptly notify the person that he has 21 days from the date of the notice to request return of the fingerprint cards, if any. All fingerprint cards not claimed by the applicant within 21 days of notification by the local agency shall be destroyed. All optically scanned fingerprints shall be destroyed upon completion of the criminal history records check without requiring that the applicant be notified. Fingerprints taken for the purposes described in this section shall not be copied, held or used for any other purposes.

Contrary to popular belief (I blame CSI) nobody does a fingerprint match of CCW fingerprint against FBI entire fingerprint database. Fingerprints (and photos) are only used as additional confirmation/validation for possible match. Say you and criminal Joe have same name, and bad luck for you same DOB. It can happen right. Your application gets sent to FBI criminal database and that generates a partial match. Police look at partial matches because criminals often change names, or get fake/new SS numbers, etc.

So you data generates a partial match. How does the state know if it is mistaken identity or if really are "criminal Joe" (pretty stupid Joe)? Simple the record is reviewed manually by an analyst at the FBI who looks at thing like the prints, the photos, and your description (all things indicated in criminal records). Based on that they either confirm or deny the match. Some but not all fingerprints have been electronically indexed by gross classification. This isn't enough for an exact match but it can provide a negative confirmation. Kinda like blood type. If the blood at scene is O and you are O that isn't proof it was you on the other hand if you are AB then it is proof that blood isn't yours.

However nobody "runs the prints" = try to match your prints against FBI databases of criminals or unsolved crimes. That simply requires way too much time, money, resources for a resource that is very valuable and routinely backlogged. Anybody who knows anything about databases knows a full scan is going to take a while especially on something that contains more than a hundred million records.

[Statistical]

15. So looks like my info on FBI database is out of date.

I worked for a contractor who worked for FBI back in 2002. I remember there being backlogs of weeks and scans especially for low count prints taking days or weeks. Also the results were "sketchy" at best sometimes returns hundreds of possible matches.

Looks like FBI modernized their DB in 2006.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/iafis.htm

If this is to be believed they can do a 10 pt match in minutes so I guess a decade later reality is catching up to CSI.

[one-eyed fat man]

12. Fingerprinted so many times, I have my own fling cabinet!

Printed on entering the country in 1954. More prints on joining the Army and a security clearances every couple years for 26 years. More prints for defense contractor. More prints for the airport job. Two sets of prints for every NFA firearm registered. Two sets of prints for every CCW and renewal. So far, only the VA and the Social Security Administration have NOT asked for finger prints.

Fingerprints are classified according to their characteristics to a system developed by the FBI. Fingerprints needing identification are classified using the same system then a person manually searches all the cards on file sharing the classifying traits looking for the definitive match.

There has been some work done on computerizing the search, but so far they have not proven as wonderful as they are on TV. The FBI flags all CCW background check print files to be retained until age 99. The only speculation as to why..................

[Glassunion]

13. Wow! I've only been fingerprinted once...

Proud to say only as a criminal.

[Hangingon]

18. I have been fingerprinted several times too

Employment, security clearances and chl. I don't remember what Texas does withe prints after verification. The FBI data base lasts for ever. I think it was moved to West Virginia thanks to Senator Byrd.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. I am a lot like you

They also got my DNA along the way

[AtheistCrusader]

14. Printed twice for CPL's, 5 times for adoption.

My beliefs:

The prints are run against State Patrol, and the FBI (State patrol hosts the statewide databases, so the prints don't have to be run against king, snohomish, pierce counties, etc)
The state then destroys the prints.
The FBI retains them.

Is it an effective crime fighting tool? I don't know. Stats should be available, but don't appear to be. My expectation is, it is at the very least a deterrent to applying for the permit, for people who know they have committed serious crimes, but have never been caught. This puts them in an interesting catch 22, because if they are then somehow caught carrying without a permit, their prints WILL be run, then and there.


Does it bother me? On principle only. Normally I expect to have some charge or evidence laid against me, before surrendering biometric identification. But it is the process, and hasn't been sucessfully challenged in court, so I will accept it. I do prefer some method to keep the scumbags out.

[spin]

16. In Florida you have to get fingerprinted for your first concealed weapons permit ...

but not when you renew. It's quick and easy especially if you go with electronic fingerprinting.

Q. Where can I get my fingerprints digitally scanned?

A: Florida law requires applicants for the concealed weapon license to have their fingerprints taken at a LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY. Electronic fingerprint devices are available at almost all of the 67 county sheriffs' offices throughout the state. Most county sheriffs have one unit; the sheriffs in some larger counties have more than one such device. You can find out if your local sheriff has an electronic fingerprint scanning device by viewing this List of Sheriff's Offices. This list includes telephone numbers for each sheriff's office so that you can find out precise locations and times when the fingerprint service is available.

We strongly recommend you telephone your sheriff's office in advance to confirm that particular office provides electronic fingerprint scanning services and to reserve an appointment time if one is necessary.

***snip***

Q. What is the cost of the electronic fingerprint submission?

A: The cost of submitting your fingerprints electronically via digital image is approximately $35.00. Keep in mind that some sheriff's offices may charge an additional nominal fee for providing the fingerprinting service. Usually, this is no more than a few dollars.

(If you submit your fingerprints using the traditional “hard-card” fingerprint method, the cost for the fingerprint submission is $42.)
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/CWCS/elecfingerprintinfo790.html

[Travis Coates]

19. Fingerprints

I was finger printed

When I joined the Army

When I got my merchant guard license

When I got a job working W/ kids

And when I got my permit

It was just one more time

[X_Digger]

21. I don't mind _too_ much

Maybe it's a slow-frog-boiling kind of scenario, but I don't consider it an unreasonable infringement of privacy. Our state didn't use to retain the fingerprints (good!) but now they do so that when you renew, you don't have to submit a new set (also good).

In TX, they are ran against the FBI database (yes, I asked the TX DPS CHL person) and previously, they were destroyed. Now they're stuck in a drawer (or a file if electronic) until time to renew. If that time passes, they're destroyed. If you renew, they're retained.

They're not entered into IAFIS, or any other database.

[burrfoot]

22. Been working with kids for about 9 years now,

and I've been printed every time I've changed agencies or moved. Wasn't real concerned about having it done for the permit. They're going to take your prints anyway, if they arrest you for something, so who cares if they're already on file?

YMMV, of course.

[MisterBill45]

23. Fingerprinting has no meaning beyond the usual symbolic

nonsense.

Yet another complete waste of time IMO.

And yes, they do indeed keep them on file forever, and yes, they do indeed usually input them into the national registry. I don't know if they run the prints through the national registry to check on possible aliases or warrants, but I would not be surprised.

In other words, whatever rights to privacy you may think you have had just went out the window when you asked permission from the government to exercise a fundamental human right.

This is yet another reason, aside from being utterly ineffective, that I could never support any sort of gun registration, permitting for owning a gun, or permitting to carry one.
Any time you give government the authority to veto your use of a right, they will inevitably in many cases deny you that right based on no legal reason at all. Trust me, I live in one of the most restrictive states in the country where entire cities have effectively been disarmed. -Except for criminals, who have always obtained their guns from the black market and wouldn't apply for permission anyway.

As for the screaming mimis who insist that this will only enable criminals to get guns, I would insist that they actually provide some documentary proof of the claims they continually make. Since every single time I see data from the antis the numbers are made up out of whole cloth, cherry picked from data to make a political point or use methods of calculaiton that would make any statistician or serious social scientist cry in frustration.

[Glassunion]

24. Thanks. And I do agree.

[Euromutt]

25. I got fingerprinted for my Washington state CPL

Given that I'd already been fingerprinted repeatedly by the DHS Citizenship and Immigration Services, both for my green card and my naturalization, letting the federal government have yet another set of my prints was no big deal to me. Kind of odd that my municipal police department (city of ~40,000 inhabitants) had better fingerprinting equipment than the DHS.

[diveguy]

26. fingerprinted for my CCW but not any of the machine guns i own

Funny how that works

[Statistical]

28. How exactly does one complete the transfer of a Title 2 (NFA) weapon without fingerprints?

Given completed fingerprint card is a federal requirement for title 2 transfer.

ATF Form-4

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-4.pdf

An individual transferee, except if licensed as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer under the GCA, must (1) attach to Item 16, a 2 inch x 2 inch photograph of the frontal view of the transferee taken within 1 year prior to the date of the application and (2) attach two properly completed FBI Forms FD-258 (Fingerprint Card with blue lines) to the application. The fingerprints must be clear for accurate classification and taken by someone properly equipped to take them.

:hi:

[diveguy]

29. If you have a trust or LLC

Use the trust to apply for the tax stamp. Since a trust or LLC is not a individual, but an entity, you dont need fingerprints, photo, or sheriff sign-off.

[Statistical]

30. Hmm. Interesting.

[one-eyed fat man]

32. Using the trust or LLC method

also confers a couple of other benefits.

If the NFA firearm is registered to you as an individual, you must be present to affect control of the firearm. It is problematic if you leave your gun in the closet at home while you are at work if your wife accesses that same closet looking for her shoes. The ATF could argue that she has possession of an NFA weapon not registered to her.

On the other hand, if you have it registered to an LLC and your wife and kids are corporate officers the corporation can designate them to be able to possess it.

The biggest benefit is in those problematic jurisdictions that it avoids those sheriff who refuse to sign Form 4's at all or only sign for significant "donors" to their reelection campaign

[Callisto32]

27. PA:

No prints required when I did my paperwork.

I agree, fingerprinting is something we (should only) do to criminals.

[RamboLiberal]

31. Well guess I'm going to get fingerprinted

I'm taking a Utah carry class in a couple of weeks. I live in PA and have a PA permit - prints not required. Want the Utah for when I travel to neighboring state of Ohio for handgun competitions. Figure since I have guns in the car it would make any stops by Ohio cops kosher.

[gravity556]

33. Dude, you know that

.gov never disposes of anything. I believe there were several lawsuits over the FBI retaining records of NICS checks-records that were supposed to be destroyed after 24/48 hours.

That said, 14 more days and AZ joins AK and VT as a Constitutional Carry state-no permission slip required.