Bear attack in Yellowstone, kills one, injures 2....

[virginia mountainman]

HELENA, Mont. — At least one bear rampaged through a campground near Yellowstone National Park before dawn Wednesday, killing one person and injuring two others before campers sought shelter in their cars, wildlife officials said.

Tents were smashed in the 4 a.m. attack that left a male dead at the Soda Butte campground. A female suffered severe lacerations from bites on her arms, while another male was bitten on his calf and taken to a hospital in Cody, Wyo.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h-zvKvHc7LVgGFN-WcG2niIDZNZwD9H88H700

And some people, wonder "Why would you NEED a gun in a national park?"

THAT IS WHY...

[Staph]

1. They weren't in a national park....

If you read carefully, they were camping in the Gallatin National Forest, not Yellowstone National Park. In so far as I can tell, guns are legal in the national forest, subject to the carry laws of the state in which the forest is located.

[havocmom]

2. While your details are true, you omitted one pertinent one

Bears wander and do not care between National Forests and National Parks. ;)

[virginia mountainman]

3. Good catch!

Guns in the National Forest, has always been deferred to State Law.

Every time I camp, I always have a high powered rifle, or a Magnum caliber revolver {.357 or.44) on hand. Just for such a late night emergancy.

[Statistical]

29. Good catch and now National Parks are subject to the very same standard. n/t

[katandmoon]

4. Tragic death -- but it was the BEARS' environment first! Typical ugly human arrogance,

trying to justify shooting something (animals for acting like animals in their natural habitat, in this instance), as a very transparent excuse for being armed and ready at all times in the great big scary world where you feel so threatened.

[rrneck]

5. Please turn off your computer and dispose of it

since the culture which supports your callous and arrogant use of technology encroaches on the habitat of all wildlife all the time.

Selective sanctimony is really embarrassing, isn't it?

[proteus_lives]

6. You do know a lot about arrogance.

And canards.

Too bad you are ignorant about facts and logic.

[Kolesar]

9. What canards and ignorance, proteus? eom

[proteus_lives]

10. Are you unfamiliar with moonie's work?

"in the great big scary world where you feel so threatened."

The fear canard. I'm surprised she didn't work the sex one in as well.

Plus, all that crap about how they shouldn't been there in the first place. Arrogance.

[cleanhippie]

12. "she wouldn't need a gun to prevent the rape if she wasn't dressed like a prostitute".

Would you agree with that? I mean, by your logic, that seems like a perfectly reasonable response.

[Straw Man]

13. Typical human arrogance...

...to want to use a tool to save one's life? I guess it would be better to relax and let oneself be eaten. Yeah, I think the ethical thing to do would be to climb down off the top of the food chain and become prey once more.

So should this policy apply to bears in the suburbs too? Or is that our natural habitat? Gets complicated, doesn't it?

[TPaine7]

14. I have to agree with katandmoon.

Tragic death...

On that everyone should agree.

...but it was the BEARS' environment first!

Of course those woods belong to the bears. We even have a proverb about what bears do in the woods--it's clearly their environment. All of the other animals pay rent.

Typical ugly human arrogance, trying to justify shooting something (animals for acting like animals in their natural habitat, in this instance)...

Of course it is arrogant to shoot a bear in its own habitat for acting like a bear and attacking you or your loved ones! It's the same type of arrogance on display when people try to justify shooting to defend against felons acting like felons in their natural habitat (cities and towns and villages). In both cases--attacks by bears and felons--we should recognize that they're only doing what's natural to them and they're doing it on their turf. Clearly, then, it is not acceptable to try to justify shooting to defend yourself or another person. It just isn't. Sometimes morality is hard, but it's always right. Better to die--or watch your loved ones mauled, assaulted, raped, tortured, kidnapped or killed--than to defile your conscience.

...a very transparent excuse for being armed and ready at all times in the great big scary world where you feel so threatened.

Of course, katandmoon is correct. It's an excuse, and it's transparent. Paranoid delusions aren't good. We shouldn't feel threatened--and that's all defensive concerns ever are--terrified feelings about a "great big scary world" that only exists in our fevered imaginations. Bear attacks aren't any more real than felon attacks, Santa Clause or the Fairy Godmother.

Now that I have seen the light, I urge everyone to pay close attention to katandmoon's words of wisdom. She has much to teach us.

[cleanhippie]

37. [phone]

Brilliant

[one-eyed fat man]

18. Feel free to feed the bears

Or better yet, the next time folks go camping, go along. They won't have to outrun the bear if they can outrun you. If you happen to be pre-menopausal, even better, since bears are attracted to a woman on her period.

[Kolesar]

22. Thank you for the "Hustler Magazine perspective"

:sarcasm:

[one-eyed fat man]

23. How about the National Park Service?

http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/menstruation_data.html

Precautions

Although there is no evidence that grizzly and black bears are overly attracted to menstrual odors more than any other odor, certain precautions should be taken to reduce the risks of attack.

"The following precautions are recommended:

1. Use pre-moistened, unscented cleaning towelettes.

2. Use internal tampons instead of external pads.

3. Do not bury tampons or pads (pack it in - pack it out). A bear may smell buried tampons or pads and dig them up. By providing bears a small food "reward", this action may attract bears to other menstruating women.

4. Place all used tampons, pads, and towelettes in double zip-loc baggies and store them unavailable to bears, just as you would store food. This means hung at least 10 feet above the ground and 4 feet from the tree trunk.

5. Tampons can be burned in a campfire, but remember that it takes a very hot fire and considerable time to completely burn them. Any charred remains must be removed from the fire pit and stored with your other garbage. Also, burning of any garbage is odorous and may attract bears to your campsite."

There is a considerable folk history and anecdotal evidence that bears are attracted by the blood. I have known plenty of women born and raised in "bear country" who have made sure their daughters were aware of the risk. What few scientific studies have been done are from mildly reinforcing to inconclusive.

The book, "Maneaters" by Peter Capstick, has a chapter devoted to grizzly bear attacks on women over a 20 year span, in Glacier National Park, Yellowstone, and black bear attacks in the Smoky Mountains National Park. (Start around page 98)

http://www.amazon.com/Maneaters-Peter-Capstick/dp/1571571175#reader_1571571175


Not everyone thinks an afternoon at "Squire's Castle" qualifies as a wilderness experience.

[Kolesar]

28. "there is no evidence that grizzly and black bears are overly attracted to menstrual odors "

"What few scientific studies have been done are from mildly reinforcing to inconclusive."

[one-eyed fat man]

32. certain precautions should be taken to reduce the risks of attack.

I know you want to ignore that part and the part where generations of women in bear country teach their daughters that there are "times" to stay out of the woods.

Perhaps most compelling is the fact that both women attacked in Glacier Park on 13 Apr 67 were on their monthly when the attacks took place. One bear walked over other campers to carry off that female.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,841027,00.html

"Ya pays yer monies, ya takes yer choice."

Just because the advice comes from old wives doesn't automatically qualify them as "old wives tales."

and the Park Service STILL RECOMMENDS those precautions!

[Kolesar]

33. Mars need women

I have plenty of experience in bear country and have read more bear placards and bear safety books than you ever will. WRT the "Hustler Magazine" thesis you are trading in, there is no proof that menstruation causes maulings.

I was out hiking and watching five grizzlies last Thursday while you were sitting in your chair.

[Glassunion]

Actually I met a grizzly once. I was armed with both

Bear mace and a hunting rifle.

Mace worked like a charm. No one got hurt. Yogi recovered as well.

Man that stuff shoots far, it was even windy.

I agree with the stoopid human theory. The bear I maced had to be relocated, as he was continually raiding camps because assholes are lazy about their food.

On edit: what the he'll is with the iPhone spellchecker constantly changing their to thief? And hell to he'll? Damn it!!!!

[Kolesar]

8. I crossed paths with a grizzly and her cub last Thursday--didn't need a gun at that time

I did carry bear mace and pulled it out.

[Euromutt]

19. Problems with wild animals are usually the effect of their coming to associate humans with food

Wolf attacks on humans (which are extremely rare, I might point out), bears messing about in campgrounds and suburban neighborhoods, they're all usually the result of people failing to secure their food scraps (though it's not always that obvious; black bear go nuts for bird seed, for example, but who would guess that?). North American predators do not normally recognize humans as prey, what with our being bipedal and all, and if a cougar or a black bear attacks you, it's because for some reason it's mistaken you for something edible.

I came across some references to some research done a few years ago that indicated the bear spray was actually more effective in stopping attacks and preventing injury than firearms. If you're going to haul something bulky in a holster, you're probably better off with it being a 10 oz. can of bear spray than a 10mm or .44 Magnum.

[Glassunion]

21. Exactly. Here is how I look at it. With pictures... Yay! LOW BANDWIDTH WARNING!!!

Let me start by saying on my last trip to Yellowstone, I shot the place up.
Nothing was safe from me as I shot everything from trees to birds, some elk.
Hell, I even shot the sky. For you "enthusiasts" I was using a DMC-FZ7 :24 MP/cm², 36 mm, 6Mp.

One of my favorite shots...


I go into a National/State Park or Forrest I carry several things.
Food/Water, Hiking Poles, Bear Mace, Firearm, Flashlight (headlamp), etc...

Almost everything I bring with me serves at least 2 purposes, otherwise I don't
bring it, because it is just dead weight. I go into the wilderness (does not even
have to be a park) with the attitude that I have no right to disturb anything,
in fact, I have an obligation to protect everything.

I carry my firearm for 1 reason, but it serves several purposes... 2-legged creatures.
Take Yellowstone for example. That park is 1/3 the size of the state of Vermont and
larger than Rhode Island or Delaware.

In other words friken big. There are only 5 roads in or out of the park and if you
have ever been there during the off-season you will know that you could go a long
time between seeing other visitors in the park. If someone wished to do you harm,
they could, and it would take a considerable amount of time for help to arrive.

My sidearm would do me almost 0 good against a bear. It may tickle him, giving me
time to run away. But a 9mm would do almost nothing to a large bear. Now, my hunting
rifle may (.308), but it would go against my philosophy of protecting wildlife.

The second purpose of my firearm is that they make excellent distress signals.
1 shot fired at intervals of 1 to 2 minutes has a greater range than an
emergency whistle. The proper response for a rescuer is to return 2 signals.
I.E. I whistle or shoot once, they reply by shooting or whistling twice.

The 3rd purpose of a firearm is not so much the firearm, but the ammunition.
The powder inside if properly ignited makes for an excellent fire-starter.

Anyway... Take only pictures, leave only footprints...

[pipoman]

27. Jeez dude,

there are free, easy to use programs for resizing photos...spare us the band width and the screen width...thanks

http://www.irfanview.com/

The absolute best, easiest, most used worldwide, no spyware, free photo editor on the planet....irfanview

[Glassunion]

31. I know... Thanks.

I just like to be annoying from time to time. :P

[pipoman]

50. My post sounded sort of bitchy...it was the first thing I saw before coffee

from all of the time I have spent on photog forums and sites huge pics are a no-no because nobody can enjoy a pic if they can't see it on their screen without scrolling and the bandwidth issue. No big deal..;)

[Kolesar]

7. National Park Service law enforcement did not want "guns" in the National Parks

A wedge issue like guns is too good for the GOP to let it go to waste so they started their "concealed carry" campaign.

Now back to abortion and gay rights.

[AtheistCrusader]

11. What's the difference between a National Park and a National Forest?

From a 'need to carry' standpoint? Because I carry in national and state parks all the time. It's a prudent thing to do. National Parks are no different. Anywhere you interact with wildlife, your safety is not assured.

Being out in the forests, you are somewhat likely to encounter nefarious 2 legged predators too. Often protecting grow ops and meth labs.

If you want to make the national parks (That are forestland and habitat, not the Statue of Liberty) about preserving natural state, then make them off limits to hunting, motorized vehicles, and be done with this issue. Banning firearms is a bad idea.

[Kolesar]

17. You just explained the difference and made a good case to ban concealed carry in the National Parks

One is likely to find your "meth labs" on national forest land, but unlikely to find "meth labs" on National Park Service land.

When is the last time you were in a National Park anyway? Dangerous grizzlies only occur in the Glacier NP ecosystem and the Yellowstone NP ecosystem. One can avoid problems with "black bears" or other animals in the parks just by being smart. Make noise when you hike. Put your food away.

[Glassunion]

24. I disagree. Hardly unlikely.

I think my news and reference sources are fair and balanced enough.

But I don't think that it would be meth-labs as much as it would be pot farms.

This is one of the reasons why I carry in parks. Heaven forbid I stumble on one of these farms and some shit-head feels that I would be better off dead than allowing me to tell a Ranger what I saw or that I might steal some of his product.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103866520
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_15581071?source=most_viewed&nclick_check=1
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/08/pot.eradication/
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/outposts/2009/08/yosemite-latest-site-of-illegal-pot-farm-discovery-eradication-.html
http://planetsave.com/blog/blog/2008/09/13/5-acre-marijuana-farm-found-and-destroyed-in-redwood-national-park/
http://cannabis.net/articles/nationalparkpot.html
http://www.examiner.com/x-35821-Immigration-Reform-Examiner~y2010m6d17-Our-national-parks-have-been-surrendered-to-the-Mexican-drug-cartels-wshocking-video
http://home.nps.gov/applications/release/print.cfm?id=814
http://news.sierrawave.net/eastern-sierra-news/2432-pot-farm-found-in-yosemite

On edit: Yes I would tell a Ranger. Below is why...
http://greatlakesecho.org/2010/03/12/when-grass-isnt-green-marijuana-farms-on-public-lands-aren%E2%80%99t-kind-to-the-environment/

[AtheistCrusader]

30. Why would you need to ban concealed carry in national parks?

Can you demonstrate it has been a problem?

Bears you have never before encountered can be 'conditioned' into a dangerous encouter with you by the irresponsible behavior of other people. That's great if you put your food away, but if others are making a habit of not doing so, a bear that is used to it may enter a confrontation with you that isn't your fault.

[Kolesar]

34. Law enforcement

fears poaching and the other damn stupid things that gun owners do. It took the NPS a lot of effort to deal with poachers in past centuries.

[Glassunion]

35. Enough with the bigoted statements...

#1
If you make a statement, try not lumping an entire group of people into it. Is serves no purpose other than show your ignorance and bigotry. If you are unsure, replace the words that you are typing with another demographic and see how it sounds.
"and the other damn stupid things that black people do"
"and the other damn stupid things that women do"
"and the other damn stupid things that gays do"
"and the other damn stupid things that Jews do"
"and the other damn stupid things that Asians do" etc...

#2
Concealed Handguns are just about the worst thing you could use to poach game with.

#3
Before the law went into effect, you were legally able to bring that same firearm into the park, just you could not conceal it on your person.

#4
Poaching has been a problem in the National Parks long before this law went into effect... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/23/AR2005102300796.html

#5
Since the law went into effect there is no evidence that poaching has increased. In fact a quick News search on Da' Google shows nothing. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbs=nws%3A1&q=NPS+poaching&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

[oneshooter]

36. Now, now, GU. There you go again, getting all annoying and such! n/t

[Glassunion]

38. Mission Accomplished

[Hoopla Phil]

53. LOL! Oh that was good! nt

[Glassunion]

55. .

[Kolesar]

39. My neighbor came over to our yard and started shooting his pistol into the ground

Stupid

One of my classmates shot and killed one of our other classmates in somebody's basement. Stupid.

A shooter in Warren bounced a bullet off something in his backyard and hit a visiting PGA golfer in the neck. She survived, he ended up in court. Stupid.

One adult in my neighborhood shot out a mirror while playing James Bond. Stupid.

What is bigoted about calling stupid: stupid?

[Glassunion]

40. Again, you are lumping a goup of people together that do not belong. I'll give examples...

There is nothing bigoted about calling stupid... Well... "Stupid". It's bigoted calling everyone in that group stupid.

"A black guy came over to our yard and started shooting his pistol into the ground."
"A black guy shot and killed one of our other classmates in somebody's basement."
"A black guy in Warren bounced a bullet off something in his backyard and hit a visiting PGA golfer in the neck. She survived, he ended up in court."
"A black guy in my neighborhood shot out a mirror while playing James Bond."

Using the above remarks to make the statement that "Black Guys" are stupid would be bigoted.

You are using anecdotal evidence to make the claim that all gun owners are stupid. You said, two posts up "Law enforcement fears poaching and the other damn stupid things that gun owners do." You are lumping "gun owners" into a group and then making a bigoted statement from it.

Your evidence, which may be true and verifiable, however you are using it to deduce a conclusion which does not follow from it, by generalizing from an insufficient amount of evidence. Faulty generalization is a mode of thinking that takes knowledge from one group's or person's experiences and incorrectly extends it to another.

I saw a yellow bird today. Therefore all birds are yellow.
A gun owner poached a deer today. Therefore all gun owners are poachers.

[friendly_iconoclast]

41. It's bigoted because you said "gun owners", not "stupid and/or criminal gun owners"

The examples you gave are confirmation bias, not proof.

Gun owners as a group are just like car owners, computer owners, or hiking boot owners- the fact that some of them will do stupid, criminal, or just criminally stupid things doesn't mean all of them do.

There's 80 million of them in the US, bound to be some crooks and fools in a group of that size...

[Kolesar]

42. some of them will do stupid, criminal, or just criminally stupid things doesn't mean all of them do

You seriously need to go outside and get some fresh air.

[Glassunion]

43. Correct me if am wrong. But, you said...

"Law enforcement fears poaching and the other damn stupid things that gun owners do."

That statement seems pretty straight forward to me. You did not say
"Law enforcement fears poaching and other damn stupid things that some people do"
"Law enforcement fears poaching and other damn stupid things that criminals do"
"Law enforcement fears poaching and other damn stupid things that some gun owners do"

All of the above statements would have conveyed that you do not believe that "guns owners" are all stupid.

You stated, plain as day: "and the other damn stupid things that gun owners do." Now perhaps you misspoke when you typed it up, and that is fine. But, this seems to follow the attitude that people have towards gun owners, as if we are some sort of backwards idiots who like nothing more than to shoot our guns and yell "yehaw" at every oportunity. So, statements like that, made by others around here(not just you) are just plain ignorant and do nothing but hurt your point.

In a debate you instantly lose credibility and all well taken points when you result to insults.

[Kolesar]

44. "the attitude that people have towards gun owners, as if we are some sort of backwards idiots"

You said it.
I didn't.

[Glassunion]

45. Taken nicely out of context.

Thank you for your bigotry... And you stand by it. At least you are honest.

[Kolesar]

49. That is not what "out of context" means...eom

[Glassunion]

51. So what is your definition?

The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as "contextomy" or "quote mining", is a logical fallacy and type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.

[friendly_iconoclast]

47. I'd rather use *your* logic in reply- If the actions of a group member represent an entire group,...

...then what does the following post say about your fellow (or sister, in this case) anti-gun posters?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=290503&mesg_id=290597


Got a broad brush?

[AtheistCrusader]

48. And you think Poachers are stopped by not allowing the concealed carry of pistols?

Interesting. Why?

[Hoopla Phil]

52. WTF?! "Make noise when you hike." That kinda defeats the purpose of

hiking in the forest doesn't it? (At least it would for me.)

[Glassunion]

54. It does make sense to make noise when hiking in bear country.

Especially grizzly territory. The last thing you want to do is walk up on a bear without it hearing you first. Polar bears are different. You want to make as little noise as possible.

If you happen upon a bear, and you are down-wind, and it did not hear you approach, the first thing you are going to do is startle it. Very bad.

When we hike in grizzly territory, we don't tiptoe, and every so often I will call out "Yo Bear!".

When we hike here on the east coast, we don't do that. Once we came on a black bear, I just yelled at while waving my arms over my head and it ran away. I must have looked like an idiot, but it worked.

EDIT: Added links...
http://www.dryridge.com/PDFs/bear_country.pdf
http://www.gorp.com/camping-guide/travel-ta-camping-sidwcmdev_056329.html

[MichaelHarris]

15. Gun or no gun

camping in a soft-sided tent in bear country is not the smartest thing in the world to do. I wonder, did they have food in the tent?

[TheWraith]

20. You'd be surprised how large "bear country" is.

We've got them around my neck of the woods, which is not known for it's hostile environment. Bears tend to keep to themselves, which is why you don't hear much about them.

[RamboLiberal]

25. The campers did everything right as far as food

Yet in the case of the Wednesday's attack, all the victims had put their food into metal food canisters installed at campsite, Sheppard said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/29/national/main6725026.shtml?tag=stack

[Remmah2]

16. This is why the right to arm bears is so important!

Nuff said.

[safeinOhio]

26. I agree

as I am also dyslexic. At an early age, on the farm, I became cornfused.

[PavePusher]

46. Better than corn-holed.... n/t

[Euromutt]

56. When it comes to wildlife, you're better off with pepper spray

Some guy from BYU did a few retrospective studies of documented bear attacks and found that bear spray appeared to be significantly more effective in stopping the attack and preventing injury to the human involved than a firearm, plus it has the advantage of not permanently harming the bear.

When it comes to carrying in National Parks, or National Forests, the threat presented by other humans is a much better argument for carrying. Here in Washington state, both in the Nat'l Forests in the Cascades and the Olympic National Park on the Olympic Peninsula, we've had gangs systematically working over the parking lots at the trailheads, breaking into and plundering the contents of parked cars, and threatening or inflicting serious violence on people who had the misfortune of interrupting their activities.

[Xenotime]

57. Would not have happened had they not camped there.