Question regarding firearms in National Parks in California.

[rrneck]

So a friend wants to go camping, but she's afraid of bears. She might ask me to bring along my 1911, but since we will be camping in California I'm more concerned about state law than with the possibility of having to stop a bear with a .45 ACP. If I am reading this correctly it should be ok to open carry the weapon with the chamber empty and magazine/s elsewhere on my person provided I transport it to the park in the vehicle in a locked box of some sort.

Also, I am betting that a Safepacker would be considered concealed carry. It's difficult to argue the finer points of law while wearing handcuffs. It seems interesting that the Safepacker would, I expect, be considered concealed carry while a flap holster, especially on a backpack, probably would not. When worn on a backpack by the time you got it mounted on the waist belt the gun butt would be pretty much jammed against the pack and very difficult to recognize among all the gear.

http://www.nps.gov/redw/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm
As of February 22, 2010, a new federal law allows people who can legally possess firearms under applicable federal, state, and local laws, to legally possess firearms in National Park Service-administered lands within Redwood National and State Parks.

It is the responsibility of visitors to understand and comply with all applicable state, local, and federal firearms laws before entering National Park Service-administered lands within Redwood National and State Parks. As a starting point, please visit the California Department of Justice Bureau of Firearms at http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf
It is unlawful to carry a loaded firearm on one’s person or in a vehicle while in any public place, on
any public street, or in any place where it is unlawful to discharge a firearm.(Penal Code §
12031(a)(1).)
A firearm is deemed loaded when there is a live cartridge or shell in, or attached in any manner to,
the firearm, including, but not limited to, the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to
the firearm. A muzzle-loading firearm is deemed loaded when it is capped or primed and has a
powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder. (Penal Code § 12031(g).)

[slackmaster]

1. This is a good question, and wish I could answer it

Tagged for responses and updates.

[Ozymanithrax]

2. As best I can find, there have been 30 fatal bear attacks in the last 10 years

in all of North America. She should try living dangerously. The excitement of imagined danger will improve the experience.

*** added "of" ***

[PavePusher]

3. How many non-fatal?

And how do you tell the difference before it's too late?

[Ozymanithrax]

6. I hike every week in California. See the end of this post for the rules.

I was lucky enough, once, to see a mountain lion in the wild at a distance of 100 feet. He was dragging deer rump. I've seen their sign more often in some places.

I take my children and grand children unarmed into the wilderness.

I've seen bears, deer, and many other wild animals.

The actual chances of being attacked by a bear or other wild animal are pretty small. I tangled with raccoons once when I left food where they could get it. I let him have it.

I also go to the beach and never take a weapons to fend off sharks or sea lions.

Vietnam was the only place I ever lived where I felt a need to carry a weapon. It was not the animals I was worried about, though I heard about tigers killing men there.

If a bear is going to get me, it will be like Brad Pitt in Legends of the fall. I do carry a knife and a hatchet when camping.

Probably this is the only thing you have to worry about...as far as carrying a weapon.

California Open Carry
36 CFR 2.4 (a) Effective February 22, 2010, the Coburn Amendment (s512 of HR627) forces the National Parks to allow possession and carry of firearms in the Parks. However, in California, the Park Service believes that 36 CFR 2.4 (a) (iii) (prohibits the use of firearms) still applies, and that
it triggers 12031(f) and therefore loading is not legal. While this appears to violate the intent of the Coburn Amendment, it would be wise to only carry unloaded at this time in the National Parks (accept in one’s campsite, where 12031 does not apply).

In your campsite it appears you can load your weapon and defend yourself as need be. If you encounter a ranger on the hiking trail, it could be a different matter.

[PavePusher]

23. I do not dispute the rarity of animal attacks...

but the fact is that the probability is non-zero.

My real concern would be attacks by two-legged criminals. As noted by the recent manhunt ranging from Arizona to the Canadian border for two escaped criminals.

[rrneck]

5. Uh, yeah.

That didn't take long. The following is a policy statement:

I do not carry a firearm anywhere because I consider them to be more trouble than they are worth in light of my personal level of risk from attack by humans or wild animals.

Okay, now that's out of the way, I hope you are aware that any bear attack fatal or not hurts really, really bad. Also, the last I heard the leading cause of bankruptcy in the United States was excessive medical expenses. Don't believe me, go pick a fight with a bear and see how you feel afterward. If there is one.

Since this forum is intended for the discussion of gun-related public policy issues or the use of firearms for self-defense would you care to actually address the OP and thereby elevate the discussion here at DU, or would you rather just trot out more juvenile snark?

[Ozymanithrax]

7. I did. see post 6 where I posted the relevant law.

In a campsite, the gun can be loaded.

But I also asked a serious question of why.

The answer is, simply, fear. The bears have far more to fear of humans than humans of bears, and bears do not have health insurance and their version of bankruptcy is death.

[rrneck]

13. Your question was asked and answered

in the OP. She is afraid of bears. I am not. I would be bringing the firearm and all the responsibility and inconvenience that entails as a courtesy to her even though the likelihood of actually encountering a belligerent bruin hovers somewhere between slim and none. I'll no doubt just have to spend a few days lugging around an extra three or four pounds of crap.

There are two holsters pictured in the OP. So, to reiterate, while the holster on the left would probably be considered concealed carry and the holster on the right would not, those fine distinctions create an interesting problem for someone who is trying to abide by the law regarding the carrying of firearms in national parks. Those fine distinctions seem to become irrelevant if not completely nonsensical in actual practice, as the image below might help to illustrate.



I've carried a large knife camping for years. Hang it behind a Nalgene bottle and it's invisible. It is, for all intents and purposes, a concealed weapon. The same can be said for a firearm when mounted on a backpack.

There. That should give you another opportunity to be dismissive and snarky.

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. That would, of course, include Canada and Alaska.

A .45 might stop a black bear, but it would probably really piss off a grizzly.

A better bet is to wear bells, and whistle or sing as you hike, because most bear attacks occur when a bear is surprised by hikers. If they hear you coming they will get themselves, and their cubs if there are any, out of your way.

[Glassunion]

12. I would agree... However...

You don't need a gun for a black bear in most cases. Unless the bear is protecting cubs, is sick, or feels cornered, an average adult can scare away a black bear.

My wife and I encountered a black bear in our camp one morning. Our food was hung from a tree, but the bear was ignoring the food. The bear was however starting to chew on one of my boots under the rainfly of the tent. I came out of the tent in my boxers, and started to yell and wave my arms and hiking poles over my head at the bear. The bear tried to run off with my boot, so I spanked it with a hiking pole until it dropped the boot and ran off.

But yes, there are very very few handguns that would kill a grizzly.

[cleanhippie]

22. "I spanked it with a hiking pole"...

I'm just glad it wasn't a monkey.....




:evilgrin:

[Glassunion]

33. Or a chicken...

Then I'd have to cho... You get the point.

[Euromutt]

37. Just don't try to flog a dolphin

Or you'll run afoul of the Endangered Species Act.

[Glassunion]

39. Would not dare... I'm all for freeing Willy. 100%

[Euromutt]

32. What's the joke again about using a .357 Magnum against grizzlies?

Some guy is going to Alaska, and he asks a friend who is an old Alaska hand if there would be a point to bringing a .357 Magnum revolver for self-protection against bears. The old Alaska hand thinks for a moment, and replies: "You can bring one, but I'd recommend you file down the front sight, so that it doesn't hurt as much when the grizzly shoves it up your ass."

[rrneck]

18. True that. nt

[sandnsea]

4. I camped in California all my life

All over the state, from the 60s to the 80s when I moved away.

I never saw a bear. You're lucky if you see a deer.

There are no griz in California. Black bears will run away 99.9% of the time.

Don't camp in a campground that has bear containers and you're guaranteed there are no bears. The parks take care of any potential problem for you.

[rrneck]

8. The only bear I've seen in years

was in my own back yard. I haven't carried a firearm camping in decades, which is why I am researching California state law. I will probably decide again that it's more trouble than it's worth, but I started this thread because in the course of my research just finding out how to carry the weapon legally presents a few challenges relating to firearms policy and self defense, which coincidentally, is why this forum exists.

Jeez, it's like talking to my brother's kids or something.

[sandnsea]

9. You Don't Need A Gun

to protect yourself from bears in California.

Now if you want to rant about California gun control, then you'll have to concoct some other excuse than bears. I'm not going to let you get away with that one.

[rrneck]

15. There are visual aids in the OP.

Some call them pictures.

IF someone wanted to carry a firearm in a national park for self defense against assault from bears, humans, or space aliens, how would one make an intelligent choice about the method of carry given the plethora of available options on the market today and where would we draw the line regarding exactly what constitutes concealed carry in California?

Given my limited experience in trying to determine what is or is not legal, it would appear that the final arbiter of whether or not I have done it right might well be the observational or emotional state of any number of passersby on the trail and the attitude of the investigating officer at the scene.

It would appear that the serious consequences due to failure to abide by firearms carriage laws depend on the slimmest of semantic differences, the attitude of passersby and authorities at any given moment, and the observational acuity of others over which we have no control.

I don't much give a shit what you think I need since you won't be there to help in the extremely unlikely event that I need it.

[sandnsea]

24. Exactly. You want to carry a gun in a park

You should have just said so instead of concocting a ridiculous story about being scared of bears.

[slackmaster]

25. If you don't have anything constructive to add to the thread, why are you responding?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rrneck]

28. What I was asking repeatedly

was not if I could carry but how that task might be accomplished legally given the unpredictability of other people's perceptions and the equipment available to do so. Especially if one would like to take into consideration the sensibilities of others who would rather not see a firearm.

Do you have any insight into a solution for either a) equipment design or b)an effective policy regarding the carriage of a firearm in the great outdoors?

Again. What I or anybody else may or may not want is none of your business. Your opinion is worthless in that respect. How did your mother get that playpen up on that high horse anyway?

[slackmaster]

20. I've seen them almost every time I've been backpacking in Sequoia National Park

Not that your personal lack of bear sightings, or my having seen them many times, have anything to do with the subject of the thread.

[sandnsea]

26. "Don't camp in a campground that has bear containers"

The post asked about someone afraid of camping because of bears. Appropriate responses deal with the issue of bears in California - not griz in Wyoming or guns at all. My responses regarding the extinction of griz in California, the rarity of black bear, and their willingness to run whenever they can, are useful to a novice camper afraid of bears.

A lengthy discussion about guns is pointless. Not only because they're unnecessary in dealing with black bears, but also because they're useless in deal with griz anyway.

The poster didn't need to demonize bears in order to justify hauling a gun into a campground.

[rrneck]

29. How does

being afraid of bears demonize them?

Do you have a solution to the equipment question?

[virginia mountainman]

30. I would not say "useless"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3VdxHvQqsk

You just got to keep your wits about yourself..

[Glassunion]

34. That huffing sound sends chills down my spine...

The grizzly I spooked made the same sound as it charged me and my wife.

My fault as we were trying to sneak up on a mother and some young pika(spelling?) to take some photos of it, so we were not making noise. Then I hear crashing to our right and that huffing sound as a grizzly the size of a Greyhound bus(no exaggeration) was bearing down on us. I hosed that poor thing's face until the can was almost empty. It stopped dead and whimpered off into the woods. I, being the man and Boy Scout that I am, changed my shorts.

[rrneck]

36. I think I could outrun a bear...

because I'd be running on dry ground. :P

[Glassunion]

40. I would never try to outrun a bear... I would only have to outrun my wife.

[rrneck]

41. Ga! LOL!

:rofl:

[PavePusher]

44. I hope she doesn't read that...

or you may wish you were dealing with a bear...

Oh well, if you stop posting for a while, we'll know why! :rofl:

[Glassunion]

45. We went snorkeling once in the Keys...

We were out over a reef and there was a shallow sand bar, so we took a break. We were about 500 yards off shore in-between two islands. As we were standing there talking, the subject of sharks came up. My wife asked me what we should do if we run into a shark. I told her "Don't worry, I have a knife." while pointing at the diving knife on my ankle. She asked if it was possible to stab a shark with a small diving knife. I said "No. But it is big enough to nick you then swim away."

We have a unique relationship.

[rrneck]

43. By the way this is interesting.

"Don't camp in a campground that has bear containers"

If it has bear containers it ain't camping in my book. Might as well be in a hotel. But you follow it with this:

"...the rarity of black bear, and their willingness to run whenever they can..."
So it is safe to assume that bears are mobile and able to decide the area of their mobility. They aren't likely to confine their movements exclusively to the area around bear containers.

"Black bears will run away 99.9% of the time."

So that means that the average bear has a .1% chance or less of getting shot.

Of course the real point is that bears are understandably ignorant of California firearms regulations, which was the point of the OP. I'm not as worried about bears as running afoul of California state law. Disembodied oblivious ideology strikes again. It's just murder on common courtesy, reading comprehension and plain old common sense.

[Glassunion]

11. If I may be of assistance...

If you/her are concerned about bears, I would consider bear mace and following the standard backwoods bear avoidance techniques (making noise, no food or dishes in camp, use the bear boxes, etc...).

I have had a close encounter with a grizzly(my own fault) who charged us while hiking in WY. The mace stopped the bear dead in his tracks and allowed us to walk away completely unharmed.

When in the back country out west I carry this on my right hip, clipped to the waist strap of my backpack:

For these:


And I also carry this in a cross-draw config on my left hip:


For these:


You'll also find that the mace is always ready to go and can be fired while still clipped to your waist. If you have to carry an unloaded firearm, I don't care how fast you are, the mace will be faster. A bear can be surprisingly quiet and concealed. The one I encountered popped out of some underbrush about 30 feet from me. By the time I was macing the bear, it was 10 feet away. It was a matter of a few quick seconds.

Besides, if you are not hunting bear, don't kill one if you don't absolutely have to...

[rrneck]

14. Absolutely.

Bear spray is good stuff. I hadn't thought of that. I don't know why, it's been said here a million times. Duh. It would make her feel better and it's lighter than the gun.

But what led me to the OP is in the course of figuring out whether it was even feasible or desirable for me to carry in California and being a bit of a camping gearhound, I started looking into how to hang the gun on the backpack. There ain't a lot of difference between a safepacker and a flap holder especially depending on where and how you mount it. That set me wondering how someone would make an intelligent decision about what to buy to conform to the law, gear requirements and what one might be expected to encounter when in a national park.

I am betting that the gun in a Safepacker would be considered a concealed weapon even though it mounts like any other hip holster. But what if I had a flap holster and the gun butt settled next to the pack until it was almost invisible? What if somebody saw it and called in that there was some nut with a gun and even though I was legal? What if the investigating officer didn't get laid last night? It occurred to me that I could actually have a functionally concealed weapon on a backpack using equipment not designed to conceal it. It also occurred to me that's what the officer might think. If the investigating officer thought that's what I was up to, it could cause me some real problems while I was just trying to mollify my friend about a minimal risk from an encounter with a bear.

Of course the above is a small sliver of the variables that could occur in my experience alone much less everybody elses, I think it reveals the difficulty of properly regulating the carriage of firearms in light of the fungibility of equipment designed to carry them and the rapidity of technological developments for same.

[Glassunion]

16. Judging from your backpack...

I believe that the hip holster should be able to be strapped to the waist strap on your pack. This would probably be the easiest method as it is similar to carrying it on your hip. Downside is that if while hiking you wish to unbuckle the waist strap for comfort the firearm could slide off. But that said...

From my understanding, you should be able to carry it that way as long as it is unloaded. But alas, you are correct the laws are quite confusing at some times. I think the safepacker would be considered concealed.

[rrneck]

17. I should have been more clear - that's not my rig specifically

although I do use Kifaru gear. All their stuff uses a PALS system and there's tons of holsters that mount on it. Their stuff is really versatile and indestructible but unfortunately it's a military/tactical sort of rig and it looks that way. I don't like making people uncomfortable and hanging a gun on on a rig that could be used to deploy to Afghanistan presents a lot of image problems. It's another reason why I don't carry when camping.

[Glassunion]

19. Sorry...

I don't share your problems. I hike mostly on the east coast where it is perfectly legal for me to conceal.

I usually have one of 2 packs(depending on the duration of the hike), and will carry differently depending on the pack that I am using...
With a Day-pack, I would just carry with a very comfortable IWB that I have.
With the Multi-Day pack I will holster it on the outside of the pack then cover it with a towel that I use for wiping perspiration.

Most of my western hikes have all been in states that honor my permit. WY, CO, UT, MT and ID. Again... I carry for the Fruit-Loops, not the wildlife.

[rrneck]

21. You offered the best solution.

Bear spray will make her feel better. For the other critters I carry a big knife.

I miss camping in East Tennessee *sniff*. I used to carry there since state and national parks back home were so underutilized that when you were in the woods alone you were really alone. It seemed like once a year or so somebody would get killed in a state park.

Out here everybody hikes and camps, so it's a different experience. There doesn't seem to be nearly as much solitude as far as I've seen, but I'm still looking. But those Redwoods are friggin' spectacular. Where I live you can just about go from sea level through a Redwood forest to the top of a ten thousand foot mountain and still have time to take in a performance of Richard III in a long weekend.

[Euromutt]

31. Further to the point about bear spray

If it'll help make your friend feel even better, I can dig up the research that indicates that bear spray is more effective than firearms in warding off bears.

And I have it on the authority of a Washington state Dept. of Fish & Wildlife biologist that with black bear (and cougars), you're basically only at risk of attack if they mistake you for prey, and your best defense is to act unlike prey: make yourself look as big as you can, and if attacked, fight back hard.

[Glassunion]

35. That's what I miss. Big mountain hiking.

We try to go out west in the off season, when it is still too cold for most. It is rare to see another person for a few days.

But the trails and rivers and lakes out east would be too hard to give up. There have even been wolf sightings in Canada and upstate NY in the past couple of years. I have yet to see one of those and would jump at an opportunity to get some photos. We tried to get some shots in Yellowstone, spent 4 days camping and hiking. All I got was a photo of some old paw prints in the snow.

We are going British Columbia on our next trip in the spring.

[Euromutt]

38. From California Open Carry...

(I acknowledge Ozymanithrax already posted part of this, but I thought it couldn't hurt to post it in more obvious fashion, and append the relevant section of the California Penal Code.)

<California Penal Code section> 12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.
<...>
(f) As used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.
<...>
(l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.

36 CFR 2.4 (a) Effective February 22, 2010, the Coburn Amendment (s512 of HR627) forces the National Parks to allow possession and carry of firearms in the Parks. However, in California, the Park Service believes that 36 CFR 2.4 (a) (iii) (prohibits the use of firearms) still applies, and that it triggers 12031(f) and therefore loading is not legal. While this appears to violate the intent of the Coburn Amendment, it would be wise to only carry unloaded at this time in the National Parks (except in one’s campsite, where 12031 does not apply).

http://www.californiaopencarry.org/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf

So as it stands, it's legal to openly carry a loaded firearm in California only in those parts of unincorporated territory where there is no prohibition against discharging a firearm (which may exist within a certain distance of public roads, residences, bodies of water et al.). And irksome as it may be, I can't fault the California Park Service's interpretation of the law; federal law says you can't discharge a firearm in a National Park, and California state law says you can't open carry loaded anywhere where you can't legally discharge the firearm.

[rrneck]

42. Thanks. As usual

the heathen gunnies produce the most intelligent and considerate responses.

I expect if I take it just carrying unloaded in a flap holster it should be fine. Just deciding whether or not to take it was interesting. I knew California law was more restrictive than most and when I started looking into it the various ramifications of carry vs. not carry the issue became pretty complex.

While concealed carry is out of the question, I am aware of the sensibilities of others and don't want to make them feel uncomfortable with the sight of a big ass gun on my hip. But if I acquire a product, which is technically a holster, to resolve the discomfort for others issue I run the risk of violating concealed carry laws. Of course that's not that big a problem except if I hang a green Bianchi flap holster on a foliage green Kifaru Molle Express and all the crap I can add to it the gun will pretty much disappear anyway. So, even though the equipment is designed for open carry, it might be considered concealed by a park ranger or passerby with an agenda. Note above that Glassunion has a CCW and merely drops a bandanna over the otherwise open carry weapon. Depending on who I run into I may be damned if I do and damned if I don't. And I won't know until the shit hits the fan.

The whole experience is a fine example of how poorly thought out public policy combined with technological development, a single state line and the vagaries of others perceptions can keep people from doing what they might otherwise legally do.

And hell, I didn't even raise the question of whether an open carry weapon worn under a poncho when it rains constitutes concealed carry...