Study Ties Lax State Gun Laws to Crimes in Other States.

[elleng]

Nearly 600 mayors nationwide, led by Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg of New York and other city leaders, are mounting a new campaign to single out states with lax gun laws and push for tighter restrictions to prevent the trafficking of guns used in crimes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/27/us/politics/27guns.html?_r=1&hp

[hlthe2b]

1. Perhaps not surprising, BUT...

this should get good...:popcorn:

Best duck, elleng...

[elleng]

5. Thanks, hlt! Under cover now; I've done my duty!!!

[jazzhound]

19. Of course you're under cover now because like all

hit and run pro gun "control" proponents you can't defend your position.

And if doing your duty means aiding the GOP by mindlessly supporting any and all ill-constructed gun "control" -- yes................you have in fact done your duty.

[SteveM]

31. I believe it's called "drive-by." Funny, sound argument seems dead...

among those who would fancy themselves more intellectual and above the riffraff of reactionaries; I guess they joined the other side for the sake of some stale popcorn. Jeez-Louise.

[cleanhippie]

40. What was your duty, to execute a hit and run inflammatory post with no comments?

[Odin2005]

2. anti-gun laws were started by RWers scared of the Blank panthers.

It's about keeping guns out of the hand of minorities.

[X_Digger]

7. Reagan signed the Mulford Act in '67..

Perhaps that's just an aberration though, right?

Well, not really.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_%28United_States%29

It's not just about race though. Bloomie should be familiar with the New York's Sullivan Act..

NYT Editorial in 1905:

"{The proposed gun control} measure would prove corrective and salutary in a city filled with immigrants and evil communications, floating from the shores of Italy and Austria-Hungary. New York police reports frequently testify to the fact that the Italian and other south Continental gentry here are acquainted with the pocket pistol, and while drunk or merrymaking will use it quite as handily as the stiletto, and with more deadly effect. It is hoped that this treacherous and distinctly outlandish mode of settling disputes may not spread to corrupt the native good manners of the community."

It's not even just anti-immigrant. It's also those 'damnable communists and socialists', too. I'm sure some of his California mayors could refresh his memory on the 1934 longshoremen strike, and the gun control that followed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_West_Coast_waterfront_strike

Or some of his southern mayors could tell him about the civil rights riots of the 60's, and the legislation passed in their wake, making having a gun in 'a declared emergency' illegal.. http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-288.7.html

[virginia mountainman]

3. LOL you mean the FELON FILLED "republican led" mayors group?

How about this ...

http://www.stopillegalmayors.com/

Gun Owners Against Illegal Mayors represents Americans united to fight the Bloomberg Gang, a band of organized criminal politicians. Originating in New York City, the Gang has recruited criminal mayors across the United States.


Some of the Gang's members have been convicted of assaulting officers and constituents, corruption, extortion, theft, obstruction of justice, bribery, perjury, tax evasion, child porn, battery, and child molestation. They have attacked constituents and police officers, destroyed houses with sledge hammers, and even stolen gift cards donated for the poor. No crime is beneath them and no enormity beyond them.


The gang hides its intentions behind the deceptive title of "Mayors Against Illegal Guns." This criminal band was organized by N.Y. City mayor Michael "Bloomie" Bloomberg, who is reported to have made illegal gun purchases in several states, which interfered with 18 federal investigations. No wonder that he and his illicit mayors would like to see us made helpless to resist their sociopathic drives.


We call upon Americans to unite against these thugs, and to demand that the Department of Justice use its Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization (RICO) powers to shut down "Mayors Against Illegal Guns."Stop the Illegal Mayors! Stop them for our children, and for ourselves!

[spin]

28. It's true. Criminals hate guns owned by honest citizens. (n/t)

[merqz]

4. I love the framing

"lax gun laws". That's like saying "lax segregation laws" or "lax abortion laws" (you don't even need permission from the state to get one!!!) etc.

States that recognize the RKBA don't have lax gun laws, they have robust gun rights protection.

[dsc]

8. actually it is vastly harder to get a business licence

needed to run an abortion clinic, than it is to sell guns in any state in the union. That is one reason why gun dealers are more common than gas stations while the majority of counties in the US don't have even one abortion clinic.

[virginia mountainman]

9. Strawman...

And a very very poor one at that... Anything to back your statement up, ANYTHING AT ALL?!?!

[dsc]

25. yes

planned parenthood is my site for most counties not having even one abortion clinic (I think frankly any minimally well informed citizen knows that). As to the otherside of the equation, there are more federally licenced gun dealers than there are gas stations. It is also, a common knowledge stat that even the NRA admits is true.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

27. An abortion clinic would be more akin to a federally licensed firearms manufacturer.

Although I'm not sure what kind of paperwork is required to produce and distribute firearms... I'd have to imagine it's more cumbersome than just reselling firearms out of a shop.

[Euromutt]

35. Do you mean Type 01 FFLs specifically, or FFLs in general?

See, gun dealers need a Type 01 FFL, but there are many other kinds of Federal Firearms License. One of those is the Type 03 "Curios & Relics" license, which allow the holder to receive firearms declared to be "curios" or "relics" (mostly antiques and older military surplus firearms) by the ATF directly across state lines without having to go through a Type 01 FFL. But having a Type 03 FFL does emphatically not make you a "gun dealer" and you can get into seriously hot water if you try to behave like one (buying guns from out of state and then selling them to your poker buddies, say).

Now, when it comes to businesses with a Type 01 FFL and a storefront, I know for a fact that there are fewer of those where I live (western Washington state) than there are gas stations, and that's including places like Wal-Mart and sporting goods stores (Big 5, Sports Authority) that don't sell handguns, and very few centerfire semi-automatic rifles. Within half an hour's drive of where I live (south King County), there are only two gun shops, i.e. businesses that exclusively deal in firearms and firearm-related products (ammunition, holsters, cleaning supplies, etc.), as opposed to sporting goods stores, pawn shops, etc. There's not much more than a dozen of those, either. There isn't a gun dealer I can drive to (without taking some extremely circuitous routes) without passing at least four gas stations.

[PavePusher]

36. Numbers and cite, please? n/t

[merqz]

12. well, that sounds logical

On the one hand you are talking about selling a tool vs. running a medical clinic. Am I missing something? I would assume ANY type of medical clinic (not just abortions) would take far more paperwork than merely selling tools.

[dsc]

24. then maybe the person who used abortion in his post shouldn't have

[Hangingon]

48. Where are all these gun shops?

There are not that many around here/

[Glassunion]

50. That's an odd comparison...

For one thing it should be harder to open an abortion clinic. You are talking about a business where medical procedures take place. Medical waste has to be handled. Etc... The other is not quite so simple as you make it, but yes it is easier to get the license. You should check out the BAFTE website and look at what is entailed in getting a license to sell firearms. You will see it is not so easy.

Also, because of rising malpractice insurance premiums and an increased government focus on code violations within abortion facilities, abortionists have to raise their prices to cover their profit margins. In turn, women who want abortions are finding that it costs too much to justify the procedure and have started to consider alternatives to ending their pregnancies. That means the abortion providers have to pour money, time, and effort into hard-selling their services. What once was wildly profitable, is now being challenged from many angles, making it all the harder to maintain. The result is fewer abortion clinics.

On top of that, another killer of the abortion clinic was the invent of morning after pills. Every woman in America can walk into a pharmacy and ask for Plan-B or similar for a much lower cost than an abortion without a prescription. There are over 56,000 pharmacies in the US. The vast majority of which carry the pills.

And as for your statement that there are more gun dealers than gas stations, I'm afraid your numbers are mistaken. There are more than 2x the number of gas stations than there are in all gun dealers(including Mom and Pops, Private Dealer/Collectors, WalMart, KMart, and other chain stores) combined. Remember not everyone who has the license has a store or sells firearms or has a store.

There are on average 1,000 firearms licensees in each state in the US or about 50,000 total(according to the VPC) for the US.

Here is my question to you. How many abortion clinics should there be in the US? Should we have 15 per state, 100, 1000, 5000?

[spin]

29. "Lax gun laws" as opposed to DRACONIAN gun laws ...

such as exist in Bloomberg's NYC.

How to Get a Gun License in NYC

By Abraham Robinson, eHow Contributor
updated: September 24, 2009


1. New York City offers several different types of firearms permits. A rifle/shotgun permit and a handgun permit have different applications, with the rifle/shotgun permit generally being easier to acquire. There are also multiple types of handgun permits. If you want a handgun simply for home defense, then you will apply for a Residence Permit. If you want a handgun for something relating to your business or career, there are multiple available permits and the NYPD will advise you on which one is best for you.

2. Acquire the proper application for the permit you desire. These are available as pdf files on the NYPD website. The application must be typed and notarized.

3. For a license you must appear in person at the NYPD Licensing Division with the application, money for the fees and proper supplementary materials.

The required materials are:

- Two 1.5 x 1.5 inch photographs of yourself from within the last 30 days.

- A birth certificate or other proof of your birth date such as a military record.

- Your proof of citizenship or alien registration information.

- Your military discharge papers if you ever served in the US armed forces.

- Proof of residence such as a real estate tax bill or a lease.

- Arrest information if you were ever arrested, indicted or summoned for any reason not including parking violations. You must submit a certificate of disposition that includes the offense and the disposition. You will also need a notarized statement describing the circumstances of the arrest or summons. There are no exceptions; you must do this even if the record was sealed or the case nullified. If you have ever been convicted of a felony or serious offense you will also need an original Certificate of Relief of Disabilities signed by a judge. If you have ever had an Order of Protection issued against you, you will also need to submit detailed information about the order.

- If you want to apply for a business gun license, you will need either proof of business ownership or proper corporate information. A recent utility bill can function as proof of ownership. If the business requires a special license, you must submit that as well.

- You must complete the Letter of Necessity section of the handgun application if applying for a handgun permit.

- Your Social Security card.

4. When you present your application and materials, you will be fingerprinted and will need to pay a fingerprinting and application fee. In 2009, the fingerprinting fee was $94.25. The handgun application fee is $340 and the rifle/shotgun application fee is $140. These fees must be paid by credit card or money order.

5.If you are applying for a handgun license, you will be called back for an interview and the NYPD may require additional documentation.
http://www.ehow.com/how_5453717_gun-license-nyc.html

Let's compare this to Florida.

1) I go into a gun store and pick out the handgun I want.

2) I fill out a one page form and give it to the dealer who makes a telephone call for an NICS background check.

3) I pay the dealer the price of the firearm.

4) Since I have a Florida Concealed Weapons Permit I take the handgun home. If I don't have a carry permit I have to wait three to five business days.

Notice that I didn't have kiss any bureaucrat's ass or pay any fees to own a handgun, nor did I have to register it.

[aikoaiko]

6. Bad time to start a culture war over gun ownership rights....

I'm all for the enforcement of gun laws that prevent illegal interstate sales, but Bloomberg will fuck things up.

[virginia mountainman]

10. Your very correct...

Yea, just what do we have to loose by bringing gun control, 30 days before an election, where many Democrats will be fighting for their very survival...

Why would a REPUBLICAN like Bloomberg, want DEMOCRATS to take just such a stance, right before an election????

After all, what do we have too loose?!?!

:sarcasm:

[applegrove]

11. Good for them.

[divideandconquer]

14. Shhh! Don't talk about civilized gun laws, it scares the white underclass

The white underclass cling to their religion and guns because in their fearful ignorance that's all they have and the overclass and their minions exploit it all they can. IE, the southern strategy the GOP has exploited since civil rights laws.

[virginia mountainman]

15. Lie to yourself much???

Careful now, the facts will run over your dogma...

[Abq_Sarah]

16. What a bigoted elitist statement

Congratulations. :eyes:

[Walk away]

43. But true! nt

[rrneck]

46. And another caricature

shits his two cents.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SteveM]

33. But do you support Jim Crow gun-control laws; y'know, only the elite can have 'em?

[SteveM]

32. So, do you wish to resurrect Jim Crow laws keeping minorities from owning guns?

[Katya Mullethov]

41. Your handle should be " UnifyANDinvigorate " .

Excellent post . Keep up the good work .


And break me off another shot of that vim and vigor .

[rrneck]

45. White underclass?

And what class do you belong to? You must have studied and practiced to sound like the absurd caricature promulgated by the right of an oblivious, arrogant, elitist ideologue.

You deserve an Oscar.

[aikoaiko]

13. And off to the Guns forum this goes......

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. An observation, and a question to illustrate the mendaciousness on display

Quoth the article:

....“There are 12,000 gun murders a year in our country, and this report makes it perfectly clear how common-sense trafficking laws can prevent many of them,” said Mr. Bloomberg, who is the co-chairman of the coalition with Mayor Thomas M. Menino of Boston. “For mayors around the country, this isn’t about gun control. It’s about crime control.”....

Mumbles likes to blame other states for gun crime in Massachusetts, but he never points out that ca. 78% of the guns seized

by police in MA after being used in a crime come from..... Massachusetts.


And if this is about crime control as Bloomberg claims, why are new laws necessary? Even the head of the Brady Campaign has

admitted violent crime and murder have declined for the past three years. I guess he wants to cut the Democrat's gains

and has found some useful idiots to help him.

[divideandconquer]

21. NYC gun laws have been effective

New York City is a beacon of hope for lowering murder through tough gun laws

[Euromutt]

23. Yeah, NYC has been a "beacon of hope" since 1911...

...which was when the Sullivan Laws were introduced, designed to keep guns out of the hands of recent immigrants, such as Italians and central European Jews. That's right, since then, New York City has been a model of public safety, with nary a mugging occurring in the past century.

Oh, wait, no. NYC was a shithole in the 1970s and 1980s, and what changed things in the 1990s was not tightening the gun laws (which were already tighter than those of many European countries) but adopting a more effective approach to policing (some of which was admittedly highly dubious from a civil liberties perspective). Simply putting more blue uniforms on the street is infinitely more effective than tightening laws an increasing penalties, for the simple reason that if there aren't enough cops to enforce the law, you might as well not bother.

[benEzra]

26. And the rest of the country is a beacon of hope for lowering murder without asinine new gun laws...

http://www.fbi.gov/page2/september10/crime_091310.html

There's also the little problem that (unlike the rest of the country) NYC has recently been accused of fudging some of its its crime numbers downward in order to make the city look safer than it is.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-05-04/news/the-nypd-tapes-inside-bed-stuy-s-81st-precinct/

[friendly_iconoclast]

30. The same gun laws were in effect when it was a crime-ridden shithole in the 70's & 80's

So why weren't they effective back then?

[Kolesar]

38. "Don't need new laws, just need to enforce the existing laws!"

Or so I heard over and over again.

By extension, we don't need a heavily armed populace, we just need cogent and well trained law enforcement.

If what you said is true, more armaments in America were never necessary.

[friendly_iconoclast]

44. It's true. And is that a kinda sorta half-admission that "more armaments" weren't harmful?

....more armaments in America were never necessary.

Can't *quite* come out and admit that "more guns did not equal more crime", can you?


At least you've quit claiming they were harmful. That's a good start. Now take the next step and recognize that:

"The sharp rise in the number of guns in the US coincided with a decline in the rates of murder and violent crime."

G'wan just say it, even if only to yourself. The truth shall set you free.


Here's an experiment. The following is at least as true as your post that I modeled it on:

"Ohio gun laws have been effective. Ohio is a beacon of hope for lowering murder through the relaxation of gun laws"

The murder rate in Ohio is down, and the gun laws in that state certainly have been relaxed.

If coincidence does not equal causation in Ohio (and it doesn't), is not the same true or not in New York City?


What's your opinion?

[Kolesar]

49. What's my opinion? You need to work on your compositional skills

That writing was *terrible*. Unclear references, hypothetical quotes that don't make sense, and a lack of a thesis statement.

[Glassunion]

51. Way to dodge his question.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Glassunion]

57. No I will not.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[friendly_iconoclast]

53. You're right, that needed work. Now back to the subject....

Causation was conflated with coincidence.


If tough gun laws caused (or helped cause) a decline in NYC's crime and murder rates, why did the same decline also occur in Ohio

during the same period, after their gun laws were relaxed ? There's certainly no shortage of economically depressed urban

areas in the Buckeye State.


For that matter, the same decline in violent crime happened in Houston- another ethnically and economically diverse megacity (with

gun laws that are best described as 'minimal').


Coincidence has been deliberately mistaken for causation, methinks.

[Kolesar]

56. NYC was fifteen years ago when Rudy Giuliani was mayor

[friendly_iconoclast]

58. So it wasn't the gun laws? NY gun laws have been the same all this time.

Ohio's got easier, and Houston never had all that many to begin with. Yet all three places have had a decline in murder

and violent crime.

[cleanhippie]

42. You owe me a new keyboard!

That made me spew my coffee. Do you write comedy or what? How do you come up with some if this stuff? Its priceless!

[Euromutt]

22. Once again, I will quote Daniel Polsby

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/PolsbyFirearmCosts.htm

Despite the hopefulness of Cook et al. on this score, it is by no means clear that introducing additional restrictions into (currently legal) firearms markets--cutting down on sales through classified ads or gun shows or the like--will have much effect disarming those prone to firearms abuse. For illustration: it has been widely noticed that the effectiveness of local gun control laws can be defeated by gun runners, who load up on guns in low regulation jurisdictions and sell them--illegally--in high regulation jurisdictions. Several years ago it was widely noticed that many of the guns seized from criminals by Washington, D.C., police had originally been procured in Virginia. Public indignation led to Virginia enacting a law that would allow only one gun per month to be purchased legally by a given individual. <36>

This exercise damaged the Capital's illicit gun market little if at all; the gun runners simply moved a few states south, to Georgia, where no such rationing is practiced. Of course it is easy to turn this observation into a plea for Georgia now to do something (which would move the action to Texas or Arkansas) and thence into a polemic for a national firearms law; but that sort of twist in the argument tends to obscure the source of the difficulty, which does not lie in the disuniformities or inadequacies of various states' firearms laws but in the fundamental economics of the crime business. Of course gun runners will seek the least cost and most convenient source of supply, whatever it may be, legal markets, if available, but if they cannot deliver what is demanded, the turn to illegal markets, of smuggled guns or guns manufactured in cottage industry, is a simple operation. The acquisition behavior of illicit retail customers should be discouraged modestly at best by piling costs on gun runners. These customers are seeking to invest in capital plant for which there exists no ready substitutes. Licit buyers, on the other hand, usually are shopping for items of personal consumption, for which a number of obvious substitutes (e.g., archery; B-B guns; and for that matter, going to the movies) evidently exist. The implication of this situation, though usually ignored, is very important: the price sensitivity of firearms buyers will diminish as their motive for owning a firearm becomes more sinister. The price sensitivity of buyers will increase as their motive for owning a firearm becomes more innocuous.

The expectation that the sorts of market interventions described by Cook et al. would have a beneficial effect on the homicide rate embeds the assumption of monotonicity, that is, that there are constant returns (in the form of lowered homicide rates) to reductions in the number of firearms in private hands. Those who in any degree credit the possibility of Heinlein or Kleck effects operating, however, and who understand the implication of the distinction between "firearm as capital" and "firearm as toy," will regard this assumption as rather naive. Such students of the problem will consider the question of how firearms are distributed in society as much more important than how many there are. They will also reject as inherently counter-productive efforts to adopt policies that aim at reducing the number of arms in the hands of criminals by imposing regulatory costs in licit markets.

The problem is that criminal use of firearms is a demand-driven phenomenon; if those inclined to commit criminal offenses want firearms, some son of a bitch is going to supply those firearms, no matter how illegal it is, and from how far the guns have to come. Over the past few years, the most popular crime gun in the UK has been a Russian-made variant of the Makarov pistol reconfigured to fire only tear gas capsules, smuggled into Lithuania and converted back to fire live 9mm rounds, and in the process fitted with a lengthened and threaded barrel capable of accepting a crude suppressor, and then smuggled into the UK. In mainland western Europe, crime guns are smuggled in from south-eastern European countries like Croatia and Bulgaria, where organized crime has solid connections with the (notionally) state-run arms manufacturing industry.

The simple fact is that if the gun traffickers couldn't acquire their guns through straw purchases in Georgia or Mississippi or Texas or any other stte with "lax" gun laws, they'd get the guns smuggled in from the Balkans and China like so much other contraband (drugs, prostitutes). The drug gangs in the north-east would pay an even higher mark-up than they already do, but they'd pay it, and they'd get their guns, just like criminals in western Europe do, if they want to.

[SteveM]

34. Some very hairy statements, here...

"It also found that Mississippi, like all of the other states with the highest export rates, had relatively lax laws for bringing gun prosecutions, conducting background checks on buyers and preventing illegal purchases and transfers of guns. Officials at the Mississippi attorney general’s office declined to comment on the findings."

____________


"relative lax laws for bringing gun prosecutions" could be said of Washington, D.C. where gun violations are "bargained" off immediately when thugs seek plea bargains, and we know about D.C.'s prohibitionism.

"conducting background checks on buyers," If Bloomberg's slap-dash study has evidence of FFLs in Mississippi violating the NICS laws, then they should come forward and present same.

"...preventing illegal purchases and transfers of guns." Again, if the act is 'ILLEGAL', then present the evidence.

[Kolesar]

37. Translation => Obama is going to take your guns

Get to Wal*Mart and buy ammo while you can.

This translation does not require having fully functional grey matter. Paranoia will do. NRA membership optional. Militia members welcome

[Glassunion]

39. So...

What you are basically implying is that if you do not agree with it, that anyone who does agree is either stupid or paranoid. Please engliten us on your superior view point.

[jazzhound]

60. Here's why our Pres. isn't trusted on 2A issues............

It really aint rocket science:

http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Barack_Obama_Gun_Control.htm

[Taitertots]

47. Could those "results" be interpreted as "Having stricter gun control than other states causes crime"

[spin]

52. Miss. leaders unimpressed by handgun report ...

JACKSON — Nearly half of the guns that crossed state lines and were used in crimes in 2009 were sold in Mississippi and nine other states, according to a report from a mayors' group.

States were also ranked by the number of crime guns exported per 100,000 inhabitants. Mississippi led that list, followed by West Virginia, Kentucky, Alaska, Alabama, South Carolina, Virginia, Indiana, Nevada and Georgia.

Those states, the report said, have more relaxed gun laws, suggesting that "criminals and gun traffickers may favor certain states as the sources of guns.

***snip***

"Criminals are going to get guns wherever they are," said Senate Judiciary B Committee Chairman Gray Tollison, D-Oxford. "The Second Amendment is very strong, and that is not going to change in terms of somebody's right to purchase a gun, especially in Mississippi."

***snip***

House Judiciary A Committee Chairman Ed Blackmon, D-Canton, said a "cavalier attitude toward life" that results in violent crime in other states should not be laid at Mississippi's doorstep.

"We are very tolerant of gun ownership, and, therefore, we don't have any laws that unnecessarily burden those who want to purchase guns," he said. "Mississippi does not bear the responsibility for the social ills of the world."
http://www.nems360.com/view/full_story/9685851/article-Miss--leaders-unimpressed-by-handgun-report?instance=home_news_bullets

[Pavulon]

54. Tranlation: this bullshit is easier than root cause. 600 lazy bastards

who will never address the drug trade and poverty that makes their cities unlike Greenwich ct or Duck, NC.