As Mexico drug violence runs rampant, U.S. guns tied to crime south of border

[DainBramaged]

No other state has produced more guns seized by police in the brutal Mexican drug wars than Texas. In the Lone Star State, no other city has more guns linked to Mexican crime scenes than Houston. And in the Texas oil town, no single independent dealer stands out more for selling guns traced from south of the border than Bill Carter.

Carter, 76, has operated four Carter's Country stores in the Houston metropolitan area over the past half-century. In the past two years, more than 115 guns from his stores have been seized by the police and military in Mexico.

As an unprecedented number of American guns flows to the murderous drug cartels across the border, the identities of U.S. dealers that sell guns seized at Mexican crime scenes remain confidential under a law passed by Congress in 2003.

A year-long investigation by The Washington Post has cracked that secrecy and uncovered the names of the top 12 U.S. dealers of guns traced to Mexico in the past two years.

Eight of the top 12 dealers are in Texas, three are in Arizona, and one is in California. In Texas, two of the four Houston area Carter's Country stores are on the list, along with four gun retailers in the Rio Grande Valley at the southern tip of the state. There are 3,800 gun retailers in Texas, 300 in Houston alone.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/12/AR2010121202663.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2010121203267

"One of the reasons that Houston is the number one source, you can go to a different gun store for a month and never hit the same gun store,"


Meh.

[DainBramaged]

1. .......

Federal authorities say more than 60,000 U.S. guns of all types have been recovered in Mexico in the past four years, helping fuel the violence that has contributed to 30,000 deaths.


Law abiding citizens all.

:puke:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/guns/part5.html

[TheWraith]

5. 60,000 guns out of half a million total recovered.

Not to mention the fact that the weapons being used by the cartels are actually military-grade fully automatic weapons, which you can't buy in US gun stores.

[cleanhippie]

38. Stop using facts! He doesnt like it when facts interfere with a baseless allegation.

Ruins the talking points. Don't you know that?

[AtheistCrusader]

46. I particularly enjoy it when they pan over tables of weapons like MGL-130 grenade launchers

and other things that simply aren't available to civilians in the US, in the name of 'examples' of weapons recovered.

Like people who have a clue aren't going to notice.

[Katya Mullethov]

51. So many dont have a clue about much of anything

Remember when Gray Davis made a joke about ammeding the first law of thermodynamics to solve Cali's energy problems and nobody got the joke ?

Kinda like that .

[northoftheborder]

2. Shoot em up guv. perry should have to address this.

[Hangingon]

31. Perry?

Don't see it is his business. ATF should be handling this.

[safeinOhio]

3. You can't use Washington post here.

Only FAUX news.

[DainBramaged]

4. HAHAHAHAHAHA

:spray:

[Riftaxe]

6. And Mexican Drugs Tied to crime

North of the border...in other news Dihydrogen monoxide has been found to be wet...

Now surely if legalizing pot will cure all crime, then legalizing guns will do the same then?

[Callisto32]

21. Try hydrogen hydroxide, instead.

A lot of people have caught on to dihydrogen monoxide being H2O. Not so many have figured out that H(OH) is the same thing, so it makes for a better joke.

[Glassunion]

7. 115 guns is not a lot considering the number of stores he has and how long he has been in business.

It averages out to less than 30 guns per store.

The article is not lying, however they omit a lot of information on those 60 thousand guns. How many were sold to Mexico by our government? How many were purchased by the Mexican government? How many left the United States legally?

I would be very interested in seeing the history of the 115 guns. Who bought them and how they got to Mexico. With that information, you could find a corrective course of action.

[Euromutt]

9. Note also the phrase "no single INDEPENDENT dealer"

Which leaves open the possibility that larger numbers of firearms have been traced to chain retailers, such as Bass Pro or Gander Mountain (which has three stores in the Houston metropolitan area alone). But I guess it's more plausible to insinuate that one guy might be orchestrating dodgy sales in his stores than a large corporation, not to mention that the large corporation probably has its own legal department, if you catch my drift.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lawodevolution]

10. Mexico needs to lift their gun ban and open up their own gun stores

so that law abiding mexicans can protect themselves. The USA does not need to modify our gun laws to help out Mexico. Let's compare Juarez and El Paso, two cities with mixing population, same culture, same language (spanish) and both one of the poorest cities in the respective nations.

El Paso:
gun control - almost no gun control
murder and violence - Murders so far about 3 from new years to 11/7/2010: http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_16545591
The rate would be about .5 per 100,000 which is unheard of for a city of over 500,000. Gun ownership rate is 90 guns per 100 people.

Juarez, Mexico:
gun control - gun ban, all military weapons banned, citizens may keep grandfathered guns but to buy a new gun you need permission from the defense minister of mexico and you need to travel to Mexico city to buy the gun in the nation's only gun store run by the defense minister. Basically the average Mexican cannot be a legal gun owner. Gun ownership rate is 15 guns per 100 people.
murder and violence - Juarez on the other side of the border continues with at least a 120/100,000 murder rate.


I don't think the USA should be trying to copy Mexico's failed tough gun laws, I think Mexico needs to copy our gun freedoms.

[DainBramaged]

12. "Mexico needs to copy our gun freedoms."

So that hundreds of thousands more will die?

Oh my God the brilliance of your plan, kill em all let God sort 'em out......



:rofl:

[friendly_iconoclast]

13. If their restrictive gun laws aren't preventing all those murders....

...then why should they keep them?

[lawodevolution]

14. I explained it to you, your emotional reaction to it shows how little you know

about gun laws and violence and how young and naive you are. The people of Juarez are identical to the people of El Paso. The main difference between the two sides of the metro area are the laws and government. Juarez with 250 times higher rate of violence has tough gun laws while El Paso has very little violence and very little gun control. Only morons would try to copy a failed government policy like Mexico's tough gun laws. I'd rather keep El Paso safe, so no gun control please, no thanks.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Callisto32]

22. Wait, isn't the point that there is a huge amount of violence in a place with restrictive gun laws?

I don't think you understand this issue very well at at all.

[PavePusher]

23. No, no, the point is all the icky guns.

Reality has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[Katya Mullethov]

24. It's going to happen anyway

They dont live in a fantasy world of skittle shitting unicorns , they live in Mexico .

A couple of months ago the entire population of Ascencion stomped a couple of alleged kidnapping pieces of shit to death and then almost lynched their PD . You probably remember reading about it in the English speaking press . Thankfully , the army arrived and formed a protective ring , colts at the low ready . Oligarchy preserved . But they were right there in their faces . Nope , it wont be much longer , just keep piling shit on their backs .

[SteveM]

55. Actually, some Mexican citizens are smuggling in guns -- for self-defense...

Facing gang attacks, would you deny them a chance to fight back?

Funny thing about prohibition: you try to stop something, and it only causes a new system to develop; a system you have no control over.

What is your brilliant plan? Nothing but rolly-polly yellow men?

[spin]

58. The "honest" Mexican citizens pay top dollar for smuggled semi-auto rifles ...

(It could be argued that citizens who buy smuggled weapons for self defense are not honest, but you can bet that many law abiding citizens in the United States would buy illegal weapons if they suddenly found themselves transported to Mexico.)

The drug gangs get inexpensive fully auto AK-47 assault rifles from China, fragmentation grenades from South Korea and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Israel and Spain and the Soviet Union.

The Mexican Army also supplies weapons. 150,000 soldiers have deserted in the last six years with their weapons and hired on with the drug gangs. Many of these weapons are American made.

And of course many weapons are smuggled in from South American countries.

Mexico proves that strict gun control is a poor idea. The only thing that it has accomplished in Mexico is to keep the good citizens from overthrowing their corrupt government. The drug cartels may soon rule the country unless we intervene. The violence from the drug cartels is already beginning to spread into our country.

[Xela]

28. Again, there is no gun ban in Mexico

Even CZ has a distributor:
http://www.czmex.com.mx/

Yes, they sell their firearms through the UCAM/DCAM in Mexico City. But like I said earlier, used firearms are bought and sold legally and without many problems.

Simply put, there is no gun ban in Mexico. You need to rectify your statements or stop generalizing. Yes, gun control is technically more severe than in the US, but (and here we agree) it is quite ineffective.

There's even a re-surgence in combat handgunning competition (IDPA):
http://il.youtube.com/results?search_query=idpa+mexico&aq=f

Lists of IDPA Clubs in Mexico:
http://www.idpa.com/clublist.asp?pick=Mexico

Xela

[spin]

59. Please mention what type of firearms you can purchase at the UCAM/DCAM in Mexico City...

Can you buy a Colt .45 auto, a .357 sig, a 9mm parabellum pistol, a 40 S&W, a .357 revolver or a .44 magnum revolver?

[one-eyed fat man]

11. "...115 guns from his stores have been seized ......"

Looks like there are more grenades in that last picture than that. What part of Texas do the North Koreans have their grenade factory?



That 1919 Browning machine gun might have come from the US, too. Then again, as one of the most successful designs of the 20th century, it was used and copies (licensed or not) were produced by many countries, including:

* Australia
* Canada
* Chile
* Costa Rica
* Denmark
* Dominican Republic
* El Salvador
* France
* Greece
* Guatemala
* Haiti
* India
* Ireland
* Israel
* Italy
* South Korea
* Liberia
* Mexico
* Panama
* Philippines
* Portugal
* Rhodesia
* South Africa
* Republic of China
* Thailand
* Turkey
* United Kingdom
* United States
* Uruguay
* Vietnam

Doubtless, some guns produced in the United States find their way to Mexico. You could say with almost virtual impunity any a Colt revolver seized by the Mexicans came from Hartford, Connecticut.

There might be a few Colts that were built in Patterson, New Jersey, but General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna likely brought those back with him from the Alamo.



Viktor Bout and boats loads of real AK-47's, rockets, mortar rounds and RPGs are WAAAAAAY to expensive for guys who have cash laying around like this? You insist they are reduced to paying retail one gun at a time over the counter in Houston? Well, that explains a couple things, a good chunk of that cash must have been yours.....

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. Now you've gone and brought empirical evidence into this.

You can expect to be A: ignored, or B: insulted- either of which will provide an example of the intellectual and moral bankruptcy

of modern gun control.

[GreenStormCloud]

17. That is one or two guns per month per store.

115 guns sounds like a lot until you break it down. It took two years for that many guns to be sold. That is 24 months. It involved 4 store locations. 24 X 4 = 96. That means one gun per month per store. That isn't exactly a booming business in gun smuggling.

Texas has the largest border with Mexico so naturally it would have the greatest amount of guns.

[RSillsbee]

18. This just in, Mexican dope tied to crime north of the border NT

[Katya Mullethov]

41. Breaking : Gov't funded study finds no link to prohibitionary policies

No film at eleven .

[Katya Mullethov]

61. News of the Now : Press feeds blaming La Violencia on US guns plug the inner tubes

Lots of film , plenty of copy .And if you look in your press kits , you will find a package of complementary towelettes .
TO GET THE BULLSHIT OF YOUR HANDS !

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&biw=1126&bih=641&q=guns%20fuel&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=nw&fp=9e9a2306494f2259

[slackmaster]

19. Not this crap again

Jeez.

[Callisto32]

20. The ignorance is staggering...

[RSillsbee]

25. It's not ignorance

it's willful refusal to look at the facts.

I'll bet you that before this thread ends one of the antis will bring up "the well regulated militia"

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[one-eyed fat man]

27. Are you saying you are disappointed?

"....Obama is interested in giving YOUR tax money to the ultra rich...."

So tell us, are you upset that the despicable secret "no fly" and "terror watch" lists still exist two years after Bush left office?

Maybe it's that this administration is adding to and expanding those lists, but not using them to deny gun sales?

Has anyone swept up the floor, turned out the lights and closed the gate at Guantanamo yet?

Are there combat troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, and are we still pretending some are not in Pakistan?

Got your public option yet?

.....and on top of all that, he signed bills allowing guns back in National Parks and on AMTRACK.

You might want to see a cardiologist about all those veins sticking out on your forehead.

[RSillsbee]

29. Are you not "Anti" gun ?

How can you call your self anything but an anti?

Don't you have anything better than Obama didn't take your guns? Come on now that man is not stupid. Do you not think that the gun run of '09 convinced him that gun bans of any kind was a political non starter? (BTW I only bought 2 guns and maybe7000 rounds of ammunition last year waaaay less than I will use in a life time)

[Pullo]

30. Hate to ruin your fantasy, but

Many of us here supported the President in part because we believed(correctly so) that Obama would recognize that:

1. Gun control is a very ineffective tool for reducing crime

2. Gun control was a loser politically, and by not pursuing new anti-gun laws, it became possible to get Democrats elected places that had been solid Republican. Look at the two senators from Montana, for example. Baucus and Tester would have no shot at winning if they advocated strict gun regulation


For me personally, this is why I supported Obama in the primary over Hillary. Regardless of his past stances, I correctly surmised Obama had the political chops to recognize gun control was a loser politically. I had no faith Hillary would have done the same.



Sorry if we don't fit in your little dream world.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Katya Mullethov]

63. Could one, in fact, be blinded by something ?

Some mysterious and hereto unknown outside pressure that would cause these fits of myopia ?

[ileus]

32. another gun and ammo scare?

I'll be picking up some ammo tonight.


The family and I are going to so some Christmas shopping at this weekends gunshow in Salem.....I can't wait.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Straw Man]

35. Geez, Louise...

This doesn't surprise me. Texas is the home of the pseudo cowboy who used to be our President. He and all the rest of them down there love guns and gun violence. Most of them are probably excited to learn that their guns are being used to kill people with brown skin.

Broad brush much?

Your credibility just hit the floor. Do you have anything of substance to contribute?

[SteveM]

56. Yeah, some attack Texas; some Florida. And they wonder why Democrats lose. nt

[spin]

36. The article mentions that ordinary Mexican citizens are buying smuggled firearms for self protection

Drug cartels have aggressively turned to the United States because Mexico severely restricts gun ownership. Following gunrunning paths that have been in place for 50 years, firearms cross the border and end up in the hands of criminals as well as ordinary citizens seeking protection.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/12/AR2010121202663.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2010121203267

If I was a Mexican and had the funds, I would buy a firearm to defend myself and my family. The violence in Mexico is totally out of control and the restrictive gun control laws are accomplishing nothing. (No surprise there!)

Perhaps one measure that the Mexican government could take to is to allow honest citizens to buy firearms without all the current restrictions.

[Xela]

37. IDPA in Mexico

Some people are doing something about it, very legally, and within the current limitations BTW:

IDPA Mexico:
http://www.idpa.com/clublist.asp?pick=Mexico

Vids:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=idpa+mexico&aq=f

Xela

[spin]

39. I wonder what caliber pistols they are using.

My guess would be 9mm or .357 Sig. I don't believe a citizen can own a .40 or .45 in Mexico.

[Euromutt]

43. No, 9x19mm and .357 SIG are considered "military calibers"

It looks to me like they're all using stuff in .380 ACP (aka 9x17mm, 9mm Short), like the Beretta 84 and Glock 25. I guess in the revolver division it's all .38 Special. Those seem to be the most powerful calibers you can own in Mexico.

[Xela]

44. Euro is correct.... .380 ACP, and.38 Special,, maybe 32 ACP ntxt.

ntxt.

[Xela]

45. No-no

9mm Parabellum and .357 SIG are a no-no for civilians in Mexico. As are .45 ACP, .40 S&W and .38 Super. Strangely, so is 7.62 Tokarev, a perfectly legal caliber according to the law, but considered "evil cop killer" by the military.

Xela

[one-eyed fat man]

47. 7.62 Tokarev

Various Warsaw Pact nations loaded that cartridge with steel cored projectiles, most notably the East Germans, the Bulgarians and the Czechs. They will defeat a standard Level II police vest. (NIJ 0101.03 Standard: 9 mm FMJ, at ~1,175 fps/ .357 JSP at ~ 1,395 fps} The new standards, NIJ Standard 0101.04 & .05 require a Level II vest to stop a .357 JSP at ~ 1,400 fps.

For a time after the 1986 armor piercing handgun ammunition ban was enacted the ATF made it easy for anyone whose ability to read Bulgarian was deficient or had misplaced their copy of DDB-1160G-514-82 Small-Caliber Ammunition Identification Guide.

They published the headstamps and crate markings of the various East bloc cartridges in a bulletin and on their website so you didn't need access to Defense Intelligence Agency manuals to figure out if the surplus ammo you saw for sale someplace was armor-piercing or not. This was really handy when stocking up on ammo for your Cz-52.

A small diameter FMJ bullet bullet will out-penetrate a big soft bullet both arriving at the same speed. The toughest thing for a vest to stop is an ordinary icepick. If that seems amazing, ask yourself how do they sew them together?

[Katya Mullethov]

50. The Tokarev round

Is an early analog of the 5-7 .

[one-eyed fat man]

54. Pretty much

The Russians issued more submachineguns than any of the other combatants during WW2 sometimes equipping whole regiments or divisions with them. The PPSh-41 (Pistolet-Pulemyot Shpagina)had a simple blowback action, a box or drum magazine, and fired the 7.62x25mm pistol round. It was made with metal stampings to ease production, and its chrome-lined chamber and bore helped to make the weapon very low-maintenance in combat environments.

Russian infantry tactics, particularly in urban fighting like Stalingrad, were based on the "high volume bullet hose." From a submachinegun, the 7.62x25 cartridge was not very much behind the US M1 carbine in performance.

The PPSh-41 was a classic example of a design adapted for mass production Its parts (excluding the barrel) could be produced by a relatively unskilled workforce with simple equipment available in an auto repair garage or sheet metal shop, freeing up more skilled workers for other tasks. By the spring of 1942 the Russians were building 3000 a day, 6 million by wars end.

The follow on PPS-43 could be produced in even less time. Both it and its Chicom copy Type 54 were common in Viet Nam.

PPSh-41 firing

[friendly_iconoclast]

40. You've chucked the 'respectable' part and gone straight for the bigotry in this thread.

This whole thread should be cached. It shows what gun controllers are like when the mask slips.

[PavePusher]

42. I apparently struck several nerves.

C'est la vie, neh?

[one-eyed fat man]

48. It was kind of amusing

To see a poster unequivocally state, "I don't care if they delete this post, blow me dickhead!" then whine and snivel about "no free speech in the gungeon" when the post disappeared.

Frankly, they probably did him a favor, helping protect his reputation for reasoned civil discourse by destroying evidence to the contrary.

[PavePusher]

49. I need to start getting screen-shots of that stuff... n/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

53. Who knew we'd have to start war-caching DU? n/t

[Katya Mullethov]

52. It is not the singular

But the collective reputation that is being kept polished .

[SteveM]

57. "Free speech?" I thought he was breaking wind; that ain't protected. nt

[lawodevolution]

60. Every once in a while this topic pops up in the media and in DC

The last time the media was pushing this sensationalist news was right before Presidente Cabron I mean Calderon gave his speech, it looked like they were trying to warm up for the AWB. I personally donated a lot of money to multiple pro gun groups when I saw Calderon give his speech, then I went out the next day and bought another evil rifle. Turns out the only result of Calderon's speech was the sale of more military style weapons and more money flowing to pro gun groups. They seem to have ditched the idea of a new AWB. But again I'm seeing this same deceptive crap coming up and it's making me want to throw some more money at pro gun groups and redouble my efforts to take people shooting and let them experience the fun of shooting these evil rifles. I'm only managing to take new people to the range every 2 months now, I'll try to do it more often.

[Katya Mullethov]

62. The -US Flailing- story has been going strong for some time now

You didn't get a press kit ? It had towelettes this time !
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&biw=1126&bih=641&q=guns+fuel++&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=guns+fuel++&gs_rfai=&fp=19b464671494ace2
PM me if you need a hook up .

[friendly_iconoclast]

64. UPDATE: The lawyer for Carter's Country says the investigation is being dropped:

Note the media outlet this appeared in: The Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/09/AR2011030905584_pf.html

ATF's tactics to end gun trafficking face a federal review

By James V. Grimaldi
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, March 10, 2011; A04

....Defense lawyer Dick DeGuerin said the controversy has had an impact on the criminal investigation into one of his clients, Carter's Country, a Houston area chain that had sold assault weapons to a gun-trafficking ring. DeGuerin said that Carter's Country was told by the ATF to go ahead with sales of assault weapons and then report the serial numbers later to the ATF. Last week, a prosecutor called DeGuerin to say the investigation was being dropped....

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

65. I'll bet the pot America smokes is even more related to the violence along the southern border.

Ban Pot.