A video everyone involved in the gun debate should see.

[beevul]

A video everyone involved in the gun debate should see.

In it, officer Leroy L pyle, a San Jose california police officer explains the facts of automatic and semi-automatic weapons.

Also Detective Jimmy Trahin talks about converting semi-automatic weapons to fully automatic:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysf8x477c30

Whether you're for gun rights or against them, this video presents some facts with which one can be better informed.

[sailor65]

1. But I don't want to be better informed!!

I want to ban those big bad scary guns! Then I'll feel really good and safe.....

Seriously, good find. Well done video.

[HankyDubs]

2. ...

http://www.weaponscombat.com/full-auto-conversion

[beevul]

3. Would you suggest...

Would you suggest banning those books then?


Beyond that, nobody is saying it can NOT be done.

The general consensus, is that its NOT being done in any measurable significant way.

You're free to disagree with Officer Pyle and The Detective.

I'm sure you know more about it than they do. :eyes:

[sailor65]

4. Those books are, and have always been

a scam. Semi-auto to auto conversions are not "Quick and easy." They require one of two things; The purchase of manufactured components for the full auomatic variants (Illegal and nearly impossible through normal channels) or the fabrication and installation of your own components (Also illegal and requires rather good machining skills.).

So aside from being illegal, a full auto conversion is not quick and easy. And no, you can't do it simply by drilling a couple of holes, as some of your examples would claim.

[HankyDubs]

5. more vids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsPN7Iprfp0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMIIC_MIxMA&feature=related

[HankyDubs]

6. quick and easy isn't the issue

after all, criminal organizations can employ persons who could make these conversions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKLD5yVl0PM&feature=related

[beevul]

8. Description of that video:

We take a quick look inside & out of a legally modified pre-1986
Colt Full Auto (1984) Conversion
by Arminex Limited, Scottsdale, AZ

Done by someone with a class 3 license, LEGALLY.


Again, the argument you have yet to address, is that converting weapons to full auto, is NOT a statistically or even anecdotally significant crime problem.

[The Doctor.]

14. So the real question for HankyDubs is; "How many converted weapons are seized per year"?

Out of the total number of weapons seized.

[beevul]

17. You won't get an answer from that poster...

You won't get an answer from that poster, for that question.

Because the answer undercuts a prong of the movements agenda.

And destroys any point he was trying to make.

[TheWraith]

20. And yet, there is absolutely no thriving trade in illegal automatic weapons in the United States.

So, either criminal organizations don't want automatic weapons, or it's not as easy as you think it is, or both.

[GreenStormCloud]

32. Cheaper to buy them in Africa and smuggle them in. N/T

[rl6214]

42. Again, you are finding videos that cannot be done

unless you are a gun builder. That conversion was done by a builder using a DIAS-Drop In Auto Sear- listen to the words, he says so himself and the DIAS is heavily regulated by the ATF just like every machine gun is.

Try again.

[krispos42]

49. But we're not worried about criminal organizations

Who can afford to smuggle them in from war-torn or drug-exporting countries, bribe government officials to acquire them, or just steal them from the cops. Assuming they really need them; most of their work seems to involve handguns and shotguns. And their victims are mostly other gang members

Of course, they can also make simple open-bolt submachine guns from common parts at a hardware store, as long as you don't mind having an unrifled barrel. No machining necessary, either. I have instructions if you want them.

:shrug:

Open-bolt, pistol-caliber submachine guns are cheap and easy to make. Witness the Uzi, the Sten and the "Grease Gun".

[beevul]

7. The descriptions of the videos you posted:

Second video:
All the full auto conversions I've seen require drilling, welding, cutting parts of the guide rails etc. - what is of course not the meaning of "drop in".


First video:

The gun in this video is a Tokyo Marui (How do you pronounce that?) airsoft Gas Blow-Back pistol.


In spite of your videos, my point still stands - that generally converting weapons into automatic weapons, isn't done, nor is it a statistically significant crime problem.

The video I posted, shows such.

Like I said though, you have the interwebs, and you know more than people whos job it is to arrest people that break such laws. :eyes:

[HankyDubs]

9. appeal to authority

:boring:

[beevul]

10. LOL.

Its an appeal to the people that posted the videos - the actual source itself.


But you know more about their videos than they do, right? :eyes:

[AtheistCrusader]

25. No, it's a testament to your lack of technical understanding about firearms.

We're all laughing at you right now. Just so you know.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

39. Have you ever personally measured the circumference of the earth?

Or do you take it on authority?

Most everything we learn in our lives is information provided by others.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. The second video was a pre-1986 real-deal, fully automatic AK-47

that was imported without the fiddly bits like the auto sear.

Of course, the video and the person who referenced it doesn't know or doesn't mention that possession of an auto-sear that isn't registered as a pre-1986 fully automatic firearm, or a post-1986 firearm that will accept it, is a crime. Has been since....


survey says: 1986

[X_Digger]

11. *snort* airsoft and a German is the best you got?

From the description on the second video- "Requires a full-auto disconnector."

"In Germany full auto conversion parts are free for sale."

*sigh* You should at least read the description when you post somethig. LOL!

[beevul]

12. Its hilarious isnt it?

Its downright chuckles.

If any of us made absurd unfactual implications, then tried to support them so ineptly...We'd be embarassed.

[HankyDubs]

13. its the best I got

from 5 minutes of research clicking the videos similar to the one posted in the thread-starter.

The point is that these conversions are possible, even a teenager can do them. The airsoft kid claims in his description that his conversion is possible for any semi-auto firearm. These parts can be machined by craftsmen and they can be smuggled in.

I note again that many here on the gungeon object to the regulation of fully automatic weapons anyway...so I'm really not sure what the fuss is about.

[The Doctor.]

15. The 'fuss' is about people having no idea what the difference between 'automatic'

and 'semi-automatic' are.

The point of the video is clear; People are utterly ignorant of the difference because of cosmetics.

Trying to create legislation over cosmetics, which is exactly the point of the term 'assault rifle', will only create loopholes. That's what happens when ambiguous terminology is used.

If one were to classify all semi-automatic rifles as 'assault rifles', then nearly all hunting rifles would be 'assault rifles'.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Doctor.]

18. How is that relevant to the OP?

Just "I hate guns", huh?

Ok.

[HankyDubs]

21. the relevance is

that the gun crowd always wants to make this ironclad distinction between automatic and semi-automaic weapons.

In fact that line is easily blurred by people with the expertise.

But I do hate guns. You got that right. Guns are tools of violence and oppression.

[beevul]

28. And yet...

"In fact that line is easily blurred by people with the expertise."

And yet, in actual practice, it isn't. While some can, in practice, essentially none do.

You have yet to address that fact. Care to take a crack at it?

[pipoman]

30. And of coarse

legitimate sporting use, which is the most common use by a factor of over 1,000,000, but never mind that, huh?


US Olympic Shooting Team Medalists

[RSillsbee]

34. That's because

There is an ironclad distinction between automatic and semi-automaic weapons.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. Not it you are against a follow-up shot so the animal doesn't suffer.

There's no hunter on earth that can put an animal down clean, the first time, every time. Murphy's a bitch, and he's ALWAYS around. Waiting, watching.

[pipoman]

29. I have seen the above vid before

and don't have time now. Isn't this the vid where the Director of the BATFE tells the Congressional Committee that defining 'assault weapon' isn't easy and may not be possible for the purposes of legislation without ambiguity?

[RSillsbee]

35. Yes NT

[gravity556]

31. re:its the best I got

I love that you cite an airsoft kid as someone knowledgeable about automatic weapons and the conversion of semi-automatics into machine guns. Know anyone who actually has a legal machine gun? I do. To convert an AR, depending on the maufacuturer (we'll use Colt as an example), you need to machine out the shelf that was left (to prevent the use of a DIAS or LL-you can go research those terms on your own), including widening the rear of the receiver, drill the sear hole (unless you have an RDIAS or RLL, both of which are considered by ATF to be MGs in and of themselves) and find and acquire (or machine from scratch and heat treat, either way, good freaking luck) a FA trigger group (trigger, sear, disconnector and safety) as well as an FA bolt carrier (easier to find-lots of folks use it because it's heavier and can improve lockup).

Then, once you have these parts, machine out the lower and drill the evil 3rd hole, you have to install the new guts and time the rifle. If the rifle is out of time, you either don't get FA (bolt carrier doesn't trip the auto-sear at all-congratulations, you've just committed a few felonies AND your gun doesn't work) or you get an out of battery firing, exploding your gun, quite possibly injuring yourself, demolishing your receivers-both lower and upper, and converting your multiple felonies into a twisted pile of scrap that will STILL get you prison time.

They aren't rocket science to build (kinda fun helping your 07/03 SOT buddies in the shop), but the folks who know how to make them generally aren't sporting a criminal bent.

In fact, the only murders done with legally owned machine guns were both committed by cops. Yes indeed, the same folks that the anti-gun side say are the only other than the military who should have any guns at all.

[rl6214]

43. Even a teenager can do it?

You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about. That kid did not (convert) anything to full auto and even if you could get someone that had the equipment, know-how and specs/jigs to do the machine work, you still need the full auto parts(auto sear mentioned earlier) that are heavily regulated by the ATF.

[AtheistCrusader]

22. Here's where it helps if you know something about guns.

Video 1 gets you to shoot yourself in the head. In fact, the author of the video indicates as much in the last 40 seconds of the videos. 'The reason this wouldn't work with a real semi auto weapon...'

Video 2 IS A MACHINE GUN. Pre-1986 firearms could do this. Post 1986 firearms CANNOT. If you get ahold of a AK-47 that accepts a drop-in auto sear MADE OR IMPORTED AFTER 1986, you are, even without the auto-sear, holding an ILLEGAL AUTOMATIC WEAPON IN YOUR HANDS.


Already illegal. Already a 10 year, 10,000 fine federal felony.
Keep on banging that dumbass drum, it's real entertaining to watch.

[rl6214]

41. If you look at your first example

That is not converting to full auto, that is what's called bump-firing which is basically causing the trigger to bounce off your finger cycling it very fast and SIMULATING full auto-very hard to control and hit your target.

Your second example is a dias-Drop In Auto Sear which is a part regulated by the ATF and that little part is considered a machine gun and is regulated just like any/every machine gun is. You can't just pick one up at your local gun shop/show. They cost thousands of dollars and require lots of paperwork and background checks.

Neither are a qwik, easy conversion to full auto weapons.

[one-eyed fat man]

19. Metalworking as a hobby.

This is a milling machine. It is used by those people who like to work with their hands. Those guys you made fun of who took shop but who keep your car running and your house from swimming in shit.



There are people who build things in their basement workshops as a hobby. In the picture is what's left of a block of 7075-T6 aluminum after making some chips. Those who know what they are looking at will recognize a semi-automatic lower receiver for an AR-15 type rifle. Of course anyone skilled enough to get that far, could easily ensure the interior was dimensioned properly and precisely place one more .156" diameter hole to mount an auto sear.

So, how do you propose to ban knowledge? Does having the means to commit and the knowledge to commit a crime sufficient in your mind to warrant prior restraint?

[The Doctor.]

27. Soooo... because someone CAN do it then.... what? We should ban knowledge?

Are you trying to make the case that we should prohibit precision machining? What exactly do you mean by warranting 'prior restraint'?

Who are you arguing with and against what?

OE: Oh, silly me... I lost track of the discussion. You're right, carry on.

[slackmaster]

38. I sleep better at night knowing there's a milling machine in my garage

I've made an AR-15 receiver on mine.

:hi:

[AtheistCrusader]

26. I don't get it. Are you pissed off at the 1st amendment, or the 2nd?

I know, lets have a book burning.

[Atypical Liberal]

36. Manufacturing is not difficult.

The simple fact of the matter is that any machinist can manufacture the parts needed to make a firearm, even fully-automatic firearms. The technology to make fully-automatic weapons is over 100 years old. The technology on how to make the pieces of the fire control group that allow fully-automatic fire is not difficult nor unknown. All you really need are some files and a drill press, but certainly anyone with access to a milling machine can do the task. There is some heat treating involved but nothing that can't be done with a blowtorch and a bucket of oil.

But nobody bothers to do this. Why? Because just possessing the parts to make a machine gun is the same as possessing a machine gun in the eyes of the BATFE. And possessing an illegal machine gun is good for 10 years in a federal prison.

I'd be interested to know how many illegally-manufactured machine guns are seized every year. My guess is very few.

[rl6214]

40. In order for anything like that to be done

It is required to have extensive machining equipment. Anyone that can do that sort of work can actually build the parts from scratch. Take a solid block of aluminum and machine it into the lower receiver, buy the full auto trigger group and away you go.

[Taitertots]

44. Anyone who could do that could build a firearm from scratch

The rest of the "conversions" are insanely dangerous slamfire conversions.

Are we going to ban 3 axis milling machines?

[Hoopla Phil]

33. K and R

[spin]

37. A great video! Very informative for both sides. K&R (n/t)

[russ1943]

45. Even the ATF admits conversiion from semi auto

to full auto for the Glock handgun can be done quickly, easily and requires no technical expertise.

Converting a Glock handgun, semi auto into a full auto machine gun takes less than 60 seconds, requires no technical expertise. Conversion results in a handgun capable of 1200 round a minute rate of fire.
A Glock conversion switch is a part designed and intended for use in converting a semiautomatic Glock pistol into a machinegun; therefore, it is a “machinegun” as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845(b). Glock conversion devices are considered post-May 19, 1986 machineguns and may only be lawfully possessed by properly licensed Federal Firearms Licensees who have paid the appropriate Special Occupational Tax (SOT) required of those manufacturing, importing, or dealing in National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms.
Conversion is fast and simple requiring no technical expertise. Conversion requires removal of the original polymer slide cover plate and replacing it with the conversion device, typically made of metal. By switching these plates, which takes less than 60 seconds, the conversion is complete. Conversion of a Glock pistol will result in a rate of fire of approximately 1200 rounds per minute.

We are aware of other variations of this conversion device. We are also aware that these devices are available from certain internet sources.

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http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html
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[slackmaster]

46. Yes, if you have a device that the ATF regards as legally a machinegun

So says the source.

[gravity556]

48. And the conversion plates

for Glocks are considered to be, in and of themselves, machine guns. One of my 03/07/SOT friends had a few-he used them to demonstrate them for LE sales (since the only MGs you can purchase, known as transferable were made before 1986). It's true that switching out the backplate on a Glock is pretty simple and straightforward, the mechanism inside the switch is not. The dimensions have to be very precise, otherwise the gun will fail to fire or worse, fire out of battery, exploding the gun. And even though he was a licensed class 3 manufacturer and dealer, he still had to get a demo letter rquesting a demonstration of the item in question before he could buy or build one.

That's not to say that there are NO guns out there that are easily convertible, but most of those were banned by the ATF because of their ease of conversion (open bolt MACs are a prime example), and new guns cannot be designed to fire from an open bolt.

It's easy for someone who doesn't actually know how a machine gun works to tell another, equally uninformed individual that "All ya gotta do is file down yer firing pin on that AR and it'll be a goldurn musheen gun!" And that individual conveys said misinformation as fact (my cousin filed down the sear on his AR and made it full auto!) and on and on, until some legislator hears it, freaks the hell out and suddenly pens legislation.

[KansasVoter]

47. No one here will care!

[Tejas]

50. Especially mis-informed emotionalites, and fascists with an agenda.

[DissedByBush]

51. Don't burden us with facts!

We don't need facts!

We legislate on pure emotion.