Elderly Toledo man captures home invasion suspect (Pulled gun. No shots fired. Target is 68 - Ohio)

[shadowrider]

No shots fired, but the media described him as a "gun toting" homeowner.

I'd say this qualifies as a defensive use of a firearm. You know, the kind anti's insist doesn't exist.

Video at link:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7634

[rfranklin]

1. Carrying a Gun Increases Risk of Getting Shot and Killed...

It would be impractical – not to say unethical – to randomly assign volunteers to carry a gun or not and see what happens. So Charles Branas's team at the University of Pennsylvania analysed 677 shootings over two-and-a-half years to discover whether victims were carrying at the time, and compared them to other Philly residents of similar age, sex and ethnicity. The team also accounted for other potentially confounding differences, such as the socioeconomic status of their neighbourhood.

Despite the US having the highest rate of firearms-related homicide in the industrialised world, the relationship between gun culture and violence is poorly understood. A recent study found that treating violence like an infectious disease led to a dramatic fall in shootings and killings.

Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.

While it may be that the type of people who carry firearms are simply more likely to get shot, it may be that guns give a sense of empowerment that causes carriers to overreact in tense situations, or encourages them to visit neighbourhoods they probably shouldn't, Branas speculates. Supporters of the Second Amendment shouldn't worry that the right to bear arms is under threat, however. "We don't have an answer as to whether guns are protective or perilous," Branas says. "This study is a beginning."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html

[shadowrider]

2. And that has what to do with this defensive firearm use? n/t

[east texas lib]

3. Makes for nice conversation over lattes at the local coffeehouse on beatnik night...

:D

[bossy22]

5. i say lets disarm the police then

I have never believed guns are a magical talisman that protects people from all harm. What a gun does is give a person a choice- whether to give into demands are fight back. in some cases people just have to fight back- like a rape.

[one-eyed fat man]

18. Why should rape be any different?

When confronted by violent criminals the anti's say you should simply give them what they want. Criminals don't commit crimes out of malice, they are simply misunderstood, disenfranchised, at risk and unloved.

What better way for a potential rape victim to show her concern for the downtrodden then to just acquiesce?

No criminal deserves this!

[jeepnstein]

20. Nah...

http://www.wsaz.com/newsohio/headlines/Intruder_Shot_During_Portsmouth_Break_In_114307124.html

They get robbed, too.

[bossy22]

7. also the study probably doesnt take into account

discouraged crimes- when the gun owner brandishes a weapon and the assailant runs away. I believe that is the most prevalant form of DGU

[X_Digger]

11. Extrapolating from 6% is valid science now?

In case you missed the original discussion of Branas' turd, it included nuggets such as this-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=256837

However, compared with control participants, shooting case participants were significantly more often Hispanic, more frequently working in high-risk occupations, less educated, and had a greater frequency of prior arrest. At the time of shooting, case participants were also significantly more often involved with alcohol and drugs, outdoors, and closer to areas where more Blacks, Hispanics, and unemployed individuals resided. Case participants were also more likely to be located in areas with less income and more illicit drug trafficking (Table 1).

Nor did they control for those who were legally carrying v illegally carrying. Those that were illegally carrying? Are likely involved in a criminal enterprise which makes their chances of being shot somewhat higher than the random controls that they called on land lines only.

[RamboLiberal]

21. That was one hugely flawed study

Researchers randomly chose 677 of those victims for the study. They came from various occupations -- taxi drivers, bartenders, nurses and drug dealers. Fifty-three percent had criminal records. Six percent had guns with them when they were shot.

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2009/10/does_carrying_a_gun_make_you_s.html

Yeah, I'd saying being a criminal might lead more to getting shot!

[lawodevolution]

25. This study was total garbage because it includes people who carry guns for non-legal reasons

Do a study that includes on CCW permit holders vs non-CCW holders and we can talk.

[Travis_0004]

57. Did they simply look at all shootings?

Were they comparing gang shootings as well as an honest civilian just minding his own business who was in the wrong place at the wrong time?

If they authors had an agenda, they could have easily made the data say whatever they wanted by choosing the data they wanted to use. Simply looking at all shootings doesn't make sense. Drug dealers tend to get shot at a lot, so they have a gun (I would assume a lot of them do).

That doesn't mean I am more likely to get shot at if I own a gun.

[sharesunited]

4. I am inclined to award this story one point, but the homeowners skipped their first choice.

A bullhorn.

We're Home Asshole. Go Away.

It appeared that they just wanted the burglar to go away. Instead, they kept silent and turned a burglary into a home invasion.

However, getting disconnected by 911 tips the ball into the cup for the point awarded.

When someone says 911 Hung Up On Us, that does tend to feed the pro-gun frenzy.

[bossy22]

6. so he could keep trying until he found a home that was suitable?

the man was arrested as he should be

[sharesunited]

10. These homeowners obviously preferred not to have a physical confrontation.

They would have been content if he had been frightened away and a police patrol summoned to the neighborhood.

The burglar forced the situation by mistakenly entering an occupied dwelling.

[east texas lib]

8. I write "Go Away" on a 230 grain hollow point and deliver it to the offender at 850 fps...

No complaints as of yet. To each their own, though.

[sharesunited]

12. Violence can't really be your first choice. You just like aggressive sounding bluster. Right?

[east texas lib]

27. Violence is NEVER my first choice...

Unfortunately it has been a last choice at times due to circumstance. Sometimes it's just your day in the barrel.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

14. HAHA! I like that one!

[shadowrider]

9. Maybe the homeowner could have gotten down on all fours and barked like a dog n/t

[sharesunited]

13. Probably would have worked! Or barked like a dog through a bull horn!

Not sure why you introduced the imagery of down on all fours though. You think it's supplication to avoid having to point a gun at someone? Calling macho bullshit on that.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

15. Using a bullhorn could damage someone's hearing indoors at close ranges.

I'll think I'll stick with bullets over bullhorns.

[sharesunited]

16. Interesting value system!

May you receive more kindness than you give.

[Katya Mullethov]

24. "Treat me good, I'll treat you better; treat me bad, I'll treat you worse."

A kid's gotta have role models .

[mvccd1000]

17. Thanks, SU.

After reading your posts here for quite some time, I had become convinced that you were completely irrational in your viewpoints.

While I'll continue to disagree strongly with the premise of your arguments, I am revising my opinion on the completeness of your irrationality.

[one-eyed fat man]

19. You might consider one other point.

It does not seem to apply in this case, but if whoever is breaking into your home went to the trouble of cutting phone lines you can likely assume they have more than stealing your great-grandmother's silver tea service in mind.

A cell phone, assuming you do not live in area so rural there is no service, in the bedroom is useful. Similarly, after advising police of the intrusion and that you are armed do not hang up. The 911 tapes can be very useful.

It generally goes better with juries if they hear you hollering, "Don't come in here, I've got a gun. Just leave, don't make me shoot you."

Shares won't give you any points if the tape says, "Eat lead, Punk!"

On the other hand, if the police don't come, (they don't really have to) and you were bluffing about having the gun, the sounds of your being murdered, raped and dismembered on the 911 tapes won't get your next of kin a wrongful death award either.

It won't even get to a jury.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[guitar man]

26. It's been around a while

I'm 47 and I can remember running across this kind of mindset in some folks ever since I was young. A lot of the anti-gunners are pro authoritarian and that pesky 2nd amendement gets in the way of their wildest authoritarian wet dreams. Law abiding citizens hurt or killed in the process is simply "collateral damage" to them.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

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[guitar man]

43. Authoritarians exist on both sides

Left wing or right wing, I have no use for authoritarianism when it comes to individual liberties. One is as bad as the other in my book. The only difference between the two is what aspects of our personal life they would seek to limit in their quest for an ideological utopia.

[KansasVoter]

23. I am sure it was a huge disappointment not getting to shoot the person.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

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[PavePusher]

42. Slander, projection and accusation all rolled into one short sentance.

Trifecta! Here's your prize: :puke:

[KansasVoter]

48. LOL....you again!

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

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[shadowrider]

46. Get used to it

Anti's are usually disappointed when their unsubstantiated statements of

Gun owners can't wait to come out blasting
Gun owners want to blow people away
Gun owners want to see blood splattered walls

Don't come to pass.

In instances like this, where the homeowner DIDN'T shoot and ruined their meme, they don't like it one bit.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[SteveM]

58. And you know from experience? Who did you shoot?

[HankyDubs]

28. why didn't shadowrider post this?

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/local&id=7820301

Deputies in the south valley are investigating a home invasion involving several men they say stole medical marijuana and guns.


It happened just outside Woodlake in Tulare County on Wednesday.

Investigators say a man, a woman, and a teenage boy were home when the five men broke inside the home. Detectives say the robbers took televisions, computers, medicinal marijuana and weapons. No arrests have been made

[HankyDubs]

29. or this?

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700024777/Cash-gun-stolen-in-Provo-home-invasion.html

"Cash, gun stolen in Provo home invasion"

[HankyDubs]

30. or this?

http://www.vancouverite.com/2010/12/16/guns-stolen-man-shot-during-drug-related-home-invasion-in-mission/

“The male victim was shot and sustained non-life threatening injuries. They stole numerous items from the house including cash, 3 guns, as well as the marihuana which was being grown on the property.”

[HankyDubs]

31. or this?

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101018/NEWS/101019792/-1/rss01

The robbers rummaged through the house, took a .357-caliber handgun and large amount of U.S. coins, then took the victim's vehicle and fled the scene. The vehicle later was found abandoned in a parking lot on Route 209.

Why didn't shadowrider present these or any of the other hundred I could list here?

Why post this one incident and choose to ignore the far more common sorts of incidents that these articles detail?

We all know why shadowrider didn't think these articles were worthy of consideration...BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T SUIT THE ONE-SIDED NARRATIVE HE WISHED TO PRESENT!!!

[HankyDubs]

32. no clever responses

I'll take it that the gungeon agrees with the point I made.

[ManiacJoe]

33. If you want to discuss a current event, just start a thread.

[friendly_iconoclast]

34. Or the Gungeon realizes that 4 self-selected anecdotes do not a trend make

YMMV.

[HankyDubs]

36. BUT ONE SINGLE EVENT

self-selected--which is what shadowguy presented...Now that's a trend!

PS: I just googled home invasion gun stolen.

[ManiacJoe]

39. Only you are claiming it is a trend.

He picked one current event and added a comment to start a thread for discussion. Feel free to do the same.

[HankyDubs]

47. please point out to me

where I asserted any trend.

[ManiacJoe]

52. Reply #36, line 1, last 4 words.

[HankyDubs]

53. check post #34

to which I responded. Friendly_iconoclast brought up the subject of trends, I was only mocking the silliness of his post, not asserting a trend in any direction.

Nice try though.

[ManiacJoe]

54. I think you need to reread the subthread.

You posted a series of off-topic articles.
Friendly_iconoclast pointed out that your posts did not make a trend.
You suggested the one post by the OP did make a trend, apparently in a failed mocking attempt.
I pointed out your error when taken literally.

You might try the sarcasm tags if that is the point of your posts. As you are a newbie in this forum, your stance and writing style is not yet well known.

[HankyDubs]

55. oh right

Sorry. The gungeoneers need to have sarcasm pointed out to them quite explicitly.

"You posted a series of off-topic articles"

The topic was gun use during home invasions. I simply posted some articles and pointed out that shadowdude didn't post these or the 100 others I could have picked because they don't suit the one-sided bullshit narrative that he's pushing.

You tried and failed. Time to cut your losses, guy.

[SteveM]

59. Oh, I don't know, the antis love the Christian Salad Bar of Data...

I'll take this and this -- no, no, not that -- and this -- not that or that -- and this.....

[HankyDubs]

37. strawman

"You know, the kind anti's insist doesn't exist"

Strawman bullshit, entire thread debunked.

[AzNick]

38. Self defense use does exist but is outnumbered by suicidal use

I know, no numbers to back up my claim, but I am sure of it.

And in most cases, no shot is fired.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PavePusher]

44. You are incorrect.

Minimum of approx. 108K defensive uses reported to the BoJ each year, and studies show 750K-2.5M uses per year.

Even the lowball figures far outweigh the suicides.

If you are going to make claims like "...I am sure of it.", it helps your credability vastly if you do a little more than preface it with "I know, no numbers to back up my claim...".

Just a tip to help your debating effectiveness.

On the gripping hand, if I missed the snark, my sincere apologies...

[AzNick]

50. Read a study which showed 40% of lethal use was suicide

This is why I am sure of it, but no number to back it up.

As in "I am too lazy to research it now" but I can do that later.

[PavePusher]

51. Firearms suicides run about 14-15K per year.

Homocides 11-12K.

I already stated the number of defensive uses.

The numbers of deaths come from the DoJ and the CDC.

[Common Sense Party]

56. Why didn't they just call the police and wait for the LEOs to save them?

Oh, yeah.

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110205/METRO01/102050390/1361/Two-found-dead-in-Detroit-home

[SteveM]

60. They were too busy phoning...

HankyDub and swooning over his logic.