CCW (apparently) coming to Illinois and even Chicago

[TPaine7]

Springfield, Ill. - An Illinois House committee approved amendments on a proposal to legalize the concealed carrying of guns.

...

Chiefs of police from around the state met Wednesday night in Springfield with state leaders of the National Rifle Association.

A source said that weeks of negotiations between the police chiefs and the Illinois State Rifle Association had achieved a "hand shake agreement." Wednesday's meeting was to determine whether this "agreement in principle" could be reduced to writing, with detailed language acceptable to both sides.

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/politics/illinois-house-comittee-approves-conceal-carry-gun-proposal-amendments-20110330

Soon (or so it appears) there will be no states that totally ban concealed carry! Now if the US Congress would just pass reciprocity, America wouldn't be a hostile jigsaw puzzle for travelers.

Yesssss!

[PavePusher]

Well, it ain't Constitutional Carry....

but at least it lloks like they're going to dip a toe in the water.

Gotta start somewhere.

[Orrex]

1. It'll be nice when people can take their guns cross-country on vacation

My gun has been dying to see the Grand Canyon for months. It simply won't shut up about it.

[PavePusher]

2. Mine went.

It was duly impressed and got some really spectacular photos.

Can't stop babbling about doing a Rim-to-Rim trip, so I'm off to REI tomorrow to get a new tent...

[TPaine7]

3. Take it already, the Canyon is awesome!

And thanks in part to our President, you can pack.

Enjoy!

[TheCowsCameHome]

14. I'll bet the echo there is simply awesome.

Don't forget to let it hang below your shorts.

It must be sooooo excited.

[onehandle]

15. Guns and corporations are people too in our rapidly regressing union. nt

[MyrnaLoy]

4. I wanted to be constructed but

I couldn't get past the stupidity of "hostile jigsaw puzzle for travelers."

[AtheistCrusader]

5. Yes, I enjoy having to carefully research any long-range trip in the US to see if

I'm going to become a criminal by passing over an imaginary line on a map, with the wrong piece of metal on my person.

[TPaine7]

7. I love the irony of her post. n/t

[rl6214]

18. My son is at the Naval Academy

The only real problem I have traveling from west Texas to see him is when I get up to DC and Maryland, then it's back in the cases they go and lock em up.

I do have relatives in Wisconsin so travel up to see them goes thru and into Illinois and Wis.

Soon both of those states will open up, then on to Maryland and DC.

[TPaine7]

6. Well, I doubt anyone expected you to be "constructed," so it's no big surprise, really. n/t

[MyrnaLoy]

10. typo

thanks for noticing.

[The Doctor.]

9. I'd love to hear the explanation of how that phrase is, in any way, 'stupid'.

The more obvious explanation is that you commented on something you know very little about.

So... do you have an explanation or not?

[MyrnaLoy]

11. if you notice

the typo you are so much better than me!! Or, you have an iPad with auto-correct that goes crazy. Take your pick. Constructed=constructive

[TPaine7]

12. If you care to notice, you also talk to yourself online-- which has nothing to do with iPads or

auto correction.

Even so I haven't stooped to calling your posts "stupid" in our first exchange.

They are amusing, though.

[MyrnaLoy]

13. hey

thanks for noticing and letting me know about the "hostile jigsaw puzzle" that is America.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. You haven't explained why it is 'stupid'.

You instead focus on an offhand comment about your typo.

Why is that?

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtheistCrusader]

19. You're not helping.

[MyrnaLoy]

22. I can fix that.

Crime is down right? I've seen it said many times in this forum. I've traveled all over America, I've visited every major city in America, I've walked the streets of America during it's darkest nights. You know what? I've never seen this hostile thing you speak of. 54 years and I've not seen the hostility you fear. You're not making the asinine suggestion that you're not being allowed at the lunch counters of America are you? To compare your movement to that is an insult to those who wanted to be treated as human beings.

You know, the Luby's shooting is the one you guys use to scream for concealed carry, how many years ago was that shooting? Isn't it odd that not one mass shooting has been stopped since Luby's by a concealed permit holder. It's as if concealed carry isn't doing what it said it could do.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. Again, Tyler Tx courthouse shooting. Stopped by Mark Allen Wilson.

1 child saved. Likely others saved as well, though, it is impossible to know exactly how many people David Arroyo Sr. planned on shooting. He was certainly armed for bear, with his rifle, bulletproof vest, and flak jacket.

Wilson halted his seige long enough for SWAT officers to arrive on scene, pursue, and eventually kill Arroyo.


All that said, even if there were no instances, you still don't get to define my perception of a need for a firearm for self defense. No more than you would for my 'need' for a spare tyre. I have never once in my life had a flat. I still carry a spare. Think of all the gas I could have saved by not carrying the weight of a spare, eh? Too bad, I'm going to carry one.

At least until twheels are available.

[X_Digger]

24. Such as Jeane Assam?

Or the Appalachian School of Law? (in my podunk home town of Grundy, Va).

[MyrnaLoy]

27. cite those for me

I know the first one, not the second.

[X_Digger]

28. Here are the wiki entries..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

[MyrnaLoy]

29. I've always

accepted the church shooting albeit with speculation since she was acting as security for the church and not someone who was just a bystander with a gun. as security, she was contracted to protect people.

Now as to your second source. Really, you want to use that bogus-ass example? Come on man, these were police officers, not average joe's with concealed carry permits. This is a huge failure on your part. We are looking for private citizens with cwps, not off duty police officers. Really man, that's very weak.

Try again man, find average citizens, not security or off-duty police officers who stopped a mass shooting since Luby's. Luby's was your platform for CWP, now show us how it has worked since. Not this security guard, off-duty police officer crap. Weak, man, just weak.

[TPaine7]

33. ...

Winnemucca Police Chief Bob Davidson says the violence erupted around 2:30 A.M. Sunday when a man entered the crowded Players Bar and Grill. He fatally shot two brothers, 20-year-old Jose Torres and his 19-year-old brother, Margarito. The shooter was later identified as 30 year old Ernesto Villagomez. All three were from Winnemucca.

According to witnesses, Villagomez at some point stopped to reload his high-capacity handgun and began shooting again when he was shot and killed by another patron - a 48-year-old Reno man who had a valid concealed weapons permit.

http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/19251374.html

[MyrnaLoy]

46. Who is

this 48-year-old Reno man?

[rl6214]

50. I guess since the DA determined it was justafiable

they felt there was no reason to release the name. I did a google search to find out who it was but just kept coming across the "48yo reno man" reference.

[TPaine7]

51. Why are you trying to change the subject?

I don't know his name, his eye color or his social security number.

The news sources I've found are being remarkably responsible:

Investigators say a feud between two local families is behind the early-morning shooting inside the bar. Three men from Winnemucca died from gunshot wounds, and two others are in critical condition at the hospital.

Deputies say about 2:25 a.m., 30-year-old Ernesto Villa Gomez walked into the bar and starting shooting. 20-year-old Jose Torres and his 19-year-old brother Margarito Torres were killed. When Villa Gomez was reloading his semi-automatic gun, a man from Reno took out a gun and shot Villa Gomez. That man has a concealed weapons permit.

The unidentified man who shot Villa Gomez is not expected to be charged in this incident; law enforcement call it a justifiable homicide.

Local police, the Sheriff's Office and the Nevada Highway Patrol are preparing for retaliation from one or both of the families, and rumors are already circulating in the small town of Winnemucca. There is a sense of sadness for losing three local men in this violent incident.

Source: http://www.ktvn.com/Global/story.asp?s=8378732

The CCW holder shot a man who was part of a family feud. If he were identified, he would be endangered--for doing the right thing.

Your challenge...

Try again man, find average citizens, not security or off-duty police officers who stopped a mass shooting since Luby's. Luby's was your platform for CWP, now show us how it has worked since.

...does not appear to hinge on the name of the average citizen who stopped a mass shooting since the Luby incident.

[pipoman]

34. Well...

Here are a few from a 2 minute search.

An Oklahoma concealed-carry permit holder thwarted a robbery at a Topeka convenience store Friday night, police said.

Police said 57-year-old Michael Mah shot a 17-year-old suspect who was trying to rob the Phillips 66 at 29th and Randolph, after telling him to drop his weapon. The owner of the store, Dean Yee, told police two men ran inside, when one of them pointed a gun at him and demanded money. Concealed weapons advocates said Mah did the right thing.

"The bad guys : better be careful who they pick on," said Troy Powell, a retired cop who recently moved here from Texas.

Powell said the shooting is exactly what concealed-carry is intended for.

"The guy was right there on scene and had firsthand knowledge that it was happening," said Powell. "I think he reacted appropriately and probably he could've saved that guy's life and his own."

Police said Mah shot the man just once.

http://www.ktka.com/news/2007/jan/22/concealed_carry_permit_holder_shoots_suspect/


INDEPENDENCE, Mo. -- The man who shot a suspected shoplifter in Independence won't face any charges, prosecutors said Wednesday.

Loucinda Carroll, 41, was arrested Saturday evening after a bystander shot her in the parking lot of an Independence grocery store.

Prosecutors said Carroll and a friend went to the Sunfresh store at 23rd Street and Sterling Avenue to steal meat. The manager saw it happening and followed them to a car in the parking lot, police said.

The manager tried writing down the license plate and yelled at them to stop and for someone to call police.

Bystander Not Charged In Shoplifter Shooting

With the car turned on, police said Carroll lunged the vehicle forward, striking the manager on the legs, leaving her clinging to the hood of the car.

William Miller was in the parking lot and saw it happen. He used his truck to block an exit and pulled out his handgun, repeatedly telling the driver to stop and get out, police said.

Police said Miller feared for his life and for the manager, and he fired a shot into the driver-side window. It hit Carroll in the shoulder and neck.

http://www.kmbc.com/news/20677451/detail.html

Canton police are crediting the quick actions of a bank patron for breaking up a robbery attempt on Monday.

Nabil Fawzi said instinct caused him to pull his weapon on a robbery suspect who claimed he was armed with a bomb as he tried to rob the Comerica Bank on Michigan Avenue.

"It all happened in two seconds; there was not much time to think," said Fawzi, who has patronized the bank for about four years. "I didn't think a lot, but I pulled my gun."

Police said the suspect, 54-year-old Joseph Webster of Washtenaw County, entered the bank at about 9 a.m. on Thursday. He approached the teller, handed her a hand-written note that said he had a bomb strapped to his body and demanded money from her.

She started to give him small bills, and Webster demanded $50s and $100s, according to Canton police reports, when Fawzi took notice.

"I didn't know what was happening at first," he said. "I noticed the look of confusion on her face."

Fawzi and another teller had a whispered conversation in which the other teller told him she thought they were being robbed. Canton Sgt. Rick Pomorski said the teller did not have any reason to think Fawzi was armed.

"She was just talking to him and he took it on himself to take action," Pomorski said.

Fawzi said he hesitated initially, because Webster had one of his hands behind his back. When he reached for the money, though, he saw it was empty.

Fawzi has a concealed weapons permit. He drew his firearm, pointed it at Webster and said: "You are not robbing this bank!"
Webster replied that he had a bomb, but Fawzi told him he didn't care and repeated: You are not robbing this bank!

He then directed Webster to a chair in the bank and watched him until police arrived to take Webster into custody. Nobody was hurt during the incident.

http://www.journalgroup.com/Canton/7869/bank-patron-helps-catch-hold-robbery-suspect

Now shall we look for how often an actual police officer stops a potentially deadly confrontation? I mean when it is because of a call or alarm, not just being in the right place at the right time. The majority of the time police arrive after the incident, they investigate the crime scene, then attempt to identify and apprehend the criminal. It is pretty rare that anyone is actually saved by a call to 911. The police usually arrive to either an injured victim or uninjured victim after the suspect has fled.

[MyrnaLoy]

47. none of

those are mass shootings like Luby's, do you guys even read anymore?

[pipoman]

56. What is your hang up with "mass shootings"

and what does that have to do with concealed carry? answer...Not One Fucking Thing. Understand? I didn't think so. Let's make this very clear. The ONLY reason for concealed carry is SELF DEFENSE. Why have few people defended themselves during the coarse of a "mass shooting"? Maybe because almost without fail, "mass shootings" take place in "gun free zones". Luby's? Gun free zone. VT? Gun free zone. Columbine? Gun free zone. Post offices? Gun free zones. Omaha mall? Gun free zone. The military base shooting? Gun free zone.

Your problem is that you hate the idea of others carrying for their own defense. Why does that bother you so much?

[MyrnaLoy]

61. Oh but it does!

What case was paraded all over the place to justify CWP? Answer, a mass shooting at Luby's, ergo how has the advancement of CWP's across the nation impacted mass shootings? Have they gone up. down, stayed the same?

We both know the answer don't we?

Tell me pippy, have you ever read the Luby's testimony and the testimony all over the country for CWP? Wanna know what the rallying cry was? LUBY'S! LUBY'S! LUBY'S!

[TPaine7]

65. Luby's was used as an argument for concealed carry, one of many arguments.

Therefore, lives saved and people protected that don't involve mass shootings don't matter. Does that about sum up your position?

Do you think like that all the time, or just on this subject?

I actually believe that lives being saved, women not being raped, people not being kidnapped, and assaults being defeated are good things, even when they happen (or don't happen) one at a time.

[pipoman]

67. This poster is distorting that the point being made

in the Luby's testimony was, in fact, one of personal self defense, not one of ending mass shootings.

[TPaine7]

68. Excellent point. n/t

[pipoman]

66. It wasn't "paraded" as a way to stop mass shootings.

It was because a patron who was in the restaurant had a gun in her vehicle which could have been used in her own defense, and the defense of her parents. The residual effect may have been others saved, but the disgust was one of inability to defend one's self. I suspect you know this but choose to ignore the facts.

[X_Digger]

35. Neither were in their jurisdiction or on duty.

But the chances of two rare events intersecting are slim times unlikely.

More often, CCW holders protect themselves..

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/12/16/ap/national/main7157952.shtml

As they were trying to tie up the store owner, he took out a handgun from his waistband and fatally shot one of the suspects, Smith said.

http://charlotte.news14.com/content/top_stories/628167/man-at-atm-fires-back-at-would-be-armed-robber

According to police, the man was attempting to use a Cash Points ATM on Eastway Drive at North Tryon Street around 11 p.m. A suspect seemingly saw that as an opportunity and tried to rob the victim at gunpoint.

However, that victim was also armed. He shot the suspect twice in the leg.

http://www.wxix.com/Global/story.asp?S=12299813

CINCINNATI, OH (FOX19) - Cincinnati Police are investigating a shooting where it appears a robber left the scene with the victim's cell-phone in his hand, and a slug from the victim's gun in his lower abdomen.

Police say the robber ran into someone with a concealed-carry permit, and at some point the would-be victim was able to get his gun out and shoot the suspect, who took off running from the shooting scene on Rosemont Avenue south of Glenway in West Price Hill.

[MyrnaLoy]

44. And none

of your post has anything to do with the question now does it? You used Luby's to get CCW now show us how it's stopped incidences like Luby's.

[TPaine7]

54. "You used Luby's to get CCW"

Please show where X_Digger used Luby's to get CCW.

Unless, of course, you stand ready and willing to be held accountable for any and all arguments of people who share some of your views.

[MyrnaLoy]

62. seriously

you aren't that ignorant to the history of the rise of CWP war cries after Luby's right? Really? How many of you had a CWP BEFORE Luby's??

[TPaine7]

64. No, but apparently you are ignorant on multiple fronts:

1. You are apparently ignorant of any evidence showing that X_Digger used Luby's to get CCW
   
2. You are ignorant of the fact that being the benificiary of someone else using something (assuming that is actually the case) is different from using it yourself
   
3. You are ignorant of the fact that while you would almost certainly resent being saddled with the opinions, arguments, or actions of others who share some of your views, it is hypocritical of you to attempt to saddle others.
   
4. You are ignorant of the fact that many people who have concealed carry do not base their rights or positions on Luby's cafeteria, nor does the concealed carry movement have its roots in the Luby's incident
   
5. You are ignorant of how transparent your attempts at evasion are
   ...
   

Are you willing to take responsibility for every argument or action that has been used to support positions you favor?

[pipoman]

71. Yup!

Your #4 is absolutely correct.

You are ignorant of the fact that many people who have concealed carry do not base their rights or positions on Luby's cafeteria, nor does the concealed carry movement have its roots in the Luby's incident

It is, in fact, based on Miami's dramatic increase in car jackings and violent crime. Then, almost immediately after enactment of CCW in FL, the crime rate had a dramatic decline...this is the root of the modern ccw movement. Then as other states enacted, they too experienced decreases in violent crime with absolutely no demonstrable increase because of ccw in any state enacted.

Historical revisionists must be put down regardless their cause.

[MyrnaLoy]

78. btw

once again, how many people had CWPs before the Luby's incident? We'll just start calling it BLI

[TPaine7]

80. Address my points in the post you are "responding to", completely and in good faith,

and I will give you my most complete and good faith answer to your latest diversionary question.

Otherwise you're just playing silly games of misdirection and evasion--games I refuse to participate in.

[MyrnaLoy]

82. still

no answer

[TPaine7]

86. Indeed,

No answer to my post 63, or to post 51, 54, 64, or 65. And no honest, forthright answer to post 33. And I no longer hold out any hope of answers; I expect more ducking, dodging misdirection and sophistry.

You'll be doing it with someone else, however. I'll only be addressing your posts when I think they have a shot at deceiving people on the fence.

[MyrnaLoy]

89. Well thanks

I understand how hard it would have been for you admitting that CWP holders have stopped very few of the crimes they chanted about since the Luby's shooting. It's hard to accept that your rallying cry was actually a scam. It's OK though, there will be more mass shootings in America and who knows, maybe you'll get a real hero. Not like the one in Arizona though, seems like he waits til the shooting stops and then tackles real heros.

[TPaine7]

91. Why do you think people can legitimately be forbidden to defend themselves or their loved ones

by any means whatsoever? Aren't you ashamed of your inhuman, immoral, and tyrannical stance?!!!

Not that you've ever taken that stance--to my knowledge at least--but it is a stance taken by "serious" thinkers who share some of your views. Thus it is YOUR position, at least by your "logic" just as certainly as Luby's is MY rallying cry.

I have written extensively on gun rights, including an open letter to then candidate Obama. I didn't mention Luby's once in my very long letter. I doubt I've mentioned Luby's three times on this site (outside this thread). The state I live in had CCW before Luby's. Luby's is more your rallying cry than mine.

Ok, I'm getting bored now. Your BS has been fully exposed to the air, and it really stinks. Anyone still taken in deserves to be.

[MyrnaLoy]

92. did I say

anything about defending one's self? My words have always been very specific. I also have a CWP, I just delude myself that danger lurks around every corner. I got mine to make purchasing handguns easier. Don't change the course of what my question is about, the one you chose not to answer.

[GreenStormCloud]

87. In Texas, None.

Luby's was in 1991. Texas at that time completely outlawed any form of carry, concealed or open. Texas passed concealed carry in 1995.

[oneshooter]

73. The " rise of CWP war cries after Luby's " was for CCL in TEXAS.

You really need to study your subject before writing about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTainp2cY_w

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanna_Hupp

She pushed for a CHL law in Texas, then Governor Ann Richards vetoed the bill and was voted out of office in the next election (1994) and G.W.Bush was elected. When the bill was presented to him in 1996 he signed it.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[MyrnaLoy]

79. I'll ask one more time

How many people had carry permits before Luby's? How many states had them in place?

[oneshooter]

81. In Texas? none, and there was, no open carry allowed.

[MyrnaLoy]

83. And

you don't think the Luby's shooting had nothing to do with CWP?

[oneshooter]

85. It wasn't national. It was a call for the State of Texas to allow

it's citizens the means of protecting themselves. Luby's became a battle cry much like the Alamo and Goliad did in 1845.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[GreenStormCloud]

88. Not 1845, but 1836. N/T

[MyrnaLoy]

90. So now

Lubys, CWP, and the Alamo share a common bond? Has reality actually checked out where you live?

[pipoman]

93. Outside of TEXAS it wasn't even mentioned

jesus christ why can't you understand that modern concealed carry began in Florida and expanded based on the results of enactment in Florida. Your silly luby's mantra is simply idiotic.

[rrneck]

84. The Luby's massacre was a mass murder that took place on October 16, 1991

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_massacre

http://www.txchia.org/history.htm
1976 to 1986: Getting Started
In the United States the history of modern concealed carry started with Georgia. In 1976 that state's governor, Zell Miller, introduced what became the model for later laws. His effort was inspired by an NRA director and former border patrolman, Ed Topmiller. The heart of the law was that the job of administering the shall issue permit process was given to a non-law enforcement, elected official.

Georgia joined a handful of other states allowing concealed carry, including Vermont, where no license is required; New Hampshire, with a 1923 law; Washington, which made issuance almost mandatory in 1961; and Connecticut, where in 1969 a Handgun Review Board was established to minimize arbitrary denials.

...

A trend started, with CHL laws passed in Indiana in 1980, Maine and North Dakota in 1985, and South Dakota in 1986.

1987-88: Florida, the Media Storm
The national media ignored these until 1987, when Marion Hammer tackled Florida. Anti-gun folks were horrified. Obviously concealed carry would turn Florida into another Dodge City. Blood would flow in the street. Fender-benders would turn into firefights.

The fight was tough, but the Unified Sportsmen of Florida succeeded. The dire Predictions? A year later the president of the police chiefs association, who had opposed the bill, was asked if he had kept track of all the problems the law caused. "There aren't any," he said.

Or you can count 'em yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States



So, to answer your evasive question: A whole bunch.

[pipoman]

57. You are wrong.

Concealed carry, by definition in most state statutes is for SELF DEFENSE. It is really incredibly simple.

[X_Digger]

72. Subtlety isn't your strong suit, is it?

If I found myself in a situation such as a Luby's, I would want the ability to protect myself.

That does not mean that the validation of concealed carry is no more Luby's, it is people protecting themselves- either in a Luby's or elsewhere.

[TPaine7]

74. Really?

And here I thought you would gladly lay down and die, except in a Luby's!

Do you mean to tell me that the point is actually your life, and not stopping a Luby's (or at least Luby's style) mass shooting?

I'm so confused; I thought the entire gun rights movement was about Luby's.

[X_Digger]

76. Apparently some think so, yah. n/t

[cleanhippie]

36. Look at those goalposts MOVE!

[RSillsbee]

43. New Life Church

Jeanne Assam was not a contract security guard, she was a parishoner who volunteered to be on the church's all volunteer "security team". And she was just kind of standing around before the shooting started

[MyrnaLoy]

48. this will be easy

your words, "volunteered to be on the church's all volunteer "security team". She accepted the position as security, her role at that point was to protect people. You find me that guy on a corner or let say a LUBY'S that stopped a mass shooting.

[pipoman]

58. Why does it matter?

The defense of an individual isn't good enough for you?

[RSillsbee]

59. It's not that easy

Being on the "security team" imputed no police powers to her nor did the "security team" under go any special training before assuming their positions.

In fact Assam did pretty poorly against Murray she was carrying a "wonder 9" ( Baretta M9 15+1) and she hit Murray twice ( once in the wrist and once in the hip)and he stuck a gun in his mouth.

According to Assam she wasn't even going to go to church that morning and only changed her mind at the last minute. That doesn't speak to me of a dedicated professional with a 'duty to respond'

[GreenStormCloud]

25. My wife's life was saved by her carrying concealed.

It would not have been a mass shooting. She was alone when the mugger targeted her. He untargeted her real fast when he discovered that his intended victim was armed. He ran away fast. She didn't have to shoot. A crime was prevented.

The main reason we push for concealed carry isn't because of the mass shootings, although that is a minor reason, but mainly for personal defense against violent crime.

That you have been lucky enough to not have had an encounter with crime does not mean everybody else will have your good luck. My wife didn't have your good luck, but she was prepared and didn't depend upon luck. Your statement is akin to someone who lives in Kansas saying that because they have never seen a tornado that there is no reason to have a tornado shelter.

Even if you do choose to go unarmed, there is no reason for your animosity towards those of us who are armed. You are over 30 times more likely to be struck by lightning than to be illegally shot and killed by a CCWer. Your fears are unfounded.

[MyrnaLoy]

26. source?

[GreenStormCloud]

30. My word. Newspapers don't print crime prevented stories.

A crime that is prevented is a crime that didn't happen so it is of no interest to the media.

[MyrnaLoy]

49. good luck with that

your wife pulls a gun on someone and that someone isn't arrested?

[TPaine7]

52. You aren't accounting for the fact that the mugger didn't wait for the police (or the bullet) and

"ran away fast."

I know it's easier to dismiss the story if you don't account for the inconvenient parts.

Edited to add: please see your post 47 for a snippy comment on reading the post you answer.

[MyrnaLoy]

53. so

how did it saver her life, was that just a guess?

[TPaine7]

55. Your "point" was demolished, but instead of having the character to frankly admit it, you try to

distract me?!

I see through that like glass. If you want details, go to the source.

[MyrnaLoy]

60. was it?

so if I'm so demolished how many mass shootings have been stopped by a CWP since your Waterloo named Luby's? None of the bullshit stories about off duty cops. Real guys like the CWP in Arizona who stopped....wait...nevermind, He didn't stop shit.

[TPaine7]

63. Ignore, deflect, prevaricate...

Those inconvenient facts must be ignored at all costs:

According to witnesses, Villagomez at some point stopped to reload his high-capacity handgun and began shooting again when he was shot and killed by another patron - a 48-year-old Reno man who had a valid concealed weapons permit.

See post 33 for the link

Why not face reality squarely?

[GreenStormCloud]

70. He had started the approach phase of the attack.

Wife worked for her Son and Son-in-Law taking care of the purchasing dept. She also wore several other hats. Once all the people were at work at 8AM things became so hectic that she couldn't get the purchasing work done. So she started coming in to work at 6AM to have two hours alone to take care of purchasing. The warehouse had been burglarized several times in the last couple of months. The burglars pried apart steel bars to get in. Since she was the first at work she had the combination to the steel door. The street was a short, very wide (About 100 feet wide.) dead end street. Since the place was burglarized so often, and since she always got there at 6AM, we reasoned that the local street criminals would eventually notice her and decide to make her open the door for them. Once inside they would have to silence her to prevent her from calling the cops. She is a frail senior citizen and it is unlikely that she would have survived being silenced.

The street was clear of anything that a person could hide behind except for two trees that were next to each other, about 120 feet from the door. She arrived while it was still dark, drove past her door, did a U-turn so that her lights swept the street, drove past her door in the other direction, again made a U-turn so that her lights swept the street. Since it was a short dead end street there was no through traffice and never any pedestrians. If she did see anybody that she didn't know hanging out she was to drive away. On the morning in question she did her turns and saw nobody.

She parked her car about 50 feet away from the door in her spot. She carried her .38 in a Gunny pack. That is a specialized fanny pack for guns. She got out of her car with her hand in the pack, grasping the gun, finger NOT on the trigger but beside the trigger. She began to walk to the door, watching in all directions. From behind the trees a young male, emerged. He had been hiding behind the tree waiting for her. He began to fast walk towards her.

At this point, called the approach, a street criminal will always try to engage the victim in converstation giving some reason why he has to come up to the victim to talk. His real objective is to try to put the victim off-guard until he is close enough to attack. She put her back to the wall and commanded him to stay away. He continued to approach, was now at about 40 feet, when it registed that my wife had both a purse and a fanny pack, and had kept her hand in the fanny pack the entire time. In street language that screams, "GUN!!" At to that the fact that my wife was not acting like a terrified about to be victim but rather like an ill-tempered grizzly bear. Street criminals have a sort of script as to how the crime is supposed to happen and if something happens that throws them off the script they often can't adapt and abandon the crime. So he was facing an angry combative woman who had both a fanny pack up front and a purse. He spun on his heels and ran.

About two weeks later the exact same thing happened but with a different guy coming from the same spot. Same result.

She never had to actually draw the gun. They were able to realize that she had one.

If either one had not stopped and 21 feet she was going to draw and fire. He gun has laser sights so she would not have missed. We checked with both police and criminal attorneys and given the circumstances I have described if the guy had kept coming it would have been a justified shoot.

But since the guys ran away without actually attacking, there was no crime to arrest anyone for. The crime was prevented.

[GreenStormCloud]

69. He ran away. When he started running away he was no longer a threat.

Therefore she didn't shoot him. Police took an incident report. The would be mugger was detered from committing a crime, so that was the end of it. Even if found he could not be arrested.

[Glassunion]

31. Few points

1. CCW is for self defense.
2. The odds of anyone being in the vicinity of a mass shooting are incredibly slim.
3. The odds of a CCW'er being at a mass shooting are at least 45 times less than that.

As for your question, Dan McKnown.
From the Corvallis Gazette-Times of November 23, 2005
and
From Portland’s KATU.com of February 14, 2006

Mall shooting victim drew own pistol, family says
Parents of the man most seriously wounded in a shooting rampage at a shopping mall said Tuesday that he drew a pistol and confronted the gunman before being shot.
Brendan “Dan’’ McKown, 38, was hit twice in the abdomen on Sunday, when a gunman opened fire on crowds in the Tacoma Mall.
Doctors at Tacoma General Hospital believe McKown may have suffered permanent paralysis because of spinal damage, hospital spokesman Todd Kelley said.
Roger McKown, 63, of Yelm, called his son a hero and said he has been licensed to carry a firearm for years.
“Dan has been one that always believes in protecting other people, and he put his life on the line for other people,’’ he said at a hospital news conference.

McKown would not be in this position had he not been at work on Nov. 20. He managed a store inside the mall and was chatting with a friend when he heard gunshots.
“Bam, bam, bam, bam, high rate of fire, people wer diving for cover,” he says.
That is when McKown pulled his pistol, the gun he has carried for 17 years, not imagining he might actually have to use it. That is, until he came face to face with Dominick Maldonado, who had a rifle.
“I said – ‘Young man, I think you need to put your weapon down.’ He apparently didn’t appreciate that and he brought his gun around. I drew and right as I aimed at his head, he hit me in the spine,” McKown says. “Each blow is throwing my arm back into the air and I’m just praying to God, something really un-Christian, just please let me kill this guy before he shoots somebody else.”
As McKown was bleeding and believing he was going to die, police say Maldonado took hostages, keeping officers and paramedics outside for another hour and twenty minutes.
As for his accused shooter, Maldonado’s trial begins in April and McKown says he plans to be there.

[GreenStormCloud]

32. Hesitation with a gun can get you killed.

If you aren't ready to fire as soon as you are on target you aren't ready to draw the gun. Trying to give a warning once the bad guy has started shooting is a really bad idea.

[TPaine7]

37. Warning an active shooter--especially one with a rifle-- is inadvisable. n/t

[Glassunion]

38. I agree completely. He made a grave mistake and paid the price for it.

No less valiant an effort though.

[GreenStormCloud]

39. I knew you would agree.

I posted for any lurkers who may not be familiar with proper tactics.

[Glassunion]

40. Me, personally... I would see to my family's safety and GTFO of there.

Cornered, it may be a different story.

PS... Up here in the north east it is a perfect day to be outside. Finally a nice weekend. Range time!!!

[GreenStormCloud]

41. I was assuming that he had to engage.

But if I had a clear shot at taking an active shooter out, I would take it. So would you and you know it. But I would not do any TV stuff like warnings or shots to the leg or stuff like that. I would not attempt to engage from the shooters front unless I had to.

[TPaine7]

45. It appears you missed the sense in which I called America a hostile jigsaw puzzle to travelers.

I wasn't talking about crime, or the hostility of businesses to CCW. I was talking about the hostility of law enforcement and the laws to concealed carry in certain regions.

If you are traveling cross country, you can be perfectly legal on one side of a state line and a "criminal" on the other side. If you drive through Illinois, you must take off your CCW weapon, unload it, put it in the trunk and then proceed--before you cross the state line. And at least many of the police there are VERY hostile to the idea of an ordinary citizen being armed. They will act accordingly.

The hostility I spoke of was hostility to CCW, which fit into the theme of the OP. The OP was about CCW, not criminal hostility or ill treatment in restaurants.

If all states allow CCW and Congress passes concealed carry reciprocity, a person will not be a "felon" for carrying a concealed weapon, getting lost on a country road and accidentally wandering into an anti-CCW state. A traveler won't have to stop and do the "gun dance" before entering a hostile state or city. A woman who gets a flat while in Chicago on business will at least have a fighting chance against an assailant. In other words, America won't be a hostile jigsaw puzzle to a traveler with a valid CCW permit.

[Glassunion]

77. Small point...

When I filled out the paperwork for my license I had several options to choose from for my reason to carry; target shooting, hunting, self defense... Not one ofthe available options were "to stop mass shootings". Why is that do you think?

[TPaine7]

8. I wasn't sure about preemption in Chicago and other cities,

Now I feel better:

http://ilga.gov/legislation/BillStatus.asp?DocTypeID=HB&DocNum=148&GAID=11&SessionID=84&LegID=54713

[Glassunion]

20. Great! Cause that open carry shit is gettin outta hand...

:sarcasm:

[YllwFvr]

21. Id be crucified

for doing that here. I mean its just a summary if its loaded, but damn. You know the state troopers would have me proned eating gravel along the road in no time.

[oneshooter]

42. Perfectly legal in Texas. n/t

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

94. Are you sure open carry is legal in texas? I thought it was forbidden...

[oneshooter]

95. The open carry of a handgun is illegal in Texas, with exceptions

that include hunting and camping. However the open carry of longarms is perfectly legal,as there is no law agin it.
The rifle may be carried in any manner, slung, by hand, in your vehicle, loaded or not.

Don't ya just love it!!!

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[friendly_iconoclast]

75. I understand, but do not condone, the anger expressed by the prohis in this thread.

Being on the losing side (and being seen to be on the losing side) of an emotional issue tends to bring out the worst in

people....