VA Cuccinelli says guns in churches are okay if they’re for self-defense

[RamboLiberal]

Virginians may carry weapons for personal protection into places of worship while religious services are being conducted, according to a new legal opinion by Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli II (R).

Virginia law bars carrying weapons in churches and other worship houses while a religious meeting is being held unless a person has “good and sufficient reason.”

In an opinion written Friday and posted on Cuccinelli’s Web site Monday, Cuccinelli indicates that the “right of self-defense lies at the heart of the right to keep and bear arms.” Therefore, he concludes that “carrying a weapon for personal protection constitutes a good and sufficient reason under the statute.”

However, Cuccinelli indicates that places of worship can choose to restrict or bar weapons if they wish, indicating that churches, synagogues, mosques and other institutions have a private property right to set their own rules with regards to guns.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/virginia-politics/post/cuccinelli-says-guns-in-churches-are-okay-if-theyre-for-self-defense/2011/04/11/AFvTYPLD_blog.html?hpid=z2

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

1. What a silly qualification...

Because people are wanting to bring guns to church *not* for self defense!?! :eyes:

I mean, the only other not-already-illegal actoin you could bring a gun to church for would be to worship it... and even then you couldn't be handling the gun or brandishing it.

[Katya Mullethov]

4. They are trying

It's almost always awkward speaking in a foreign tongue , at least for a while .

[Bake]

2. And in related news ...

... Jesus wept.

Bake

[Hoopla Phil]

25. And he (Jesus) said unto them: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

[WatsonT]

26. Not all of us get resurrected

[provis99]

3. what if you think Jesus is "coming for you"?

Can you get up and just blast away?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

6. That doesn't make any sense...

If you think JC is comin for you... then you would believe in christianity... which would mean JC coming for you is a good thing...

Why would you just "get up and just blast away" in the event of a good thing?
That doesn't make any sense.

[Bake]

30. Actually, one MIGHT think JC was coming for 'em in judgment.

In which case, blasting away might be a logical, if useless, reaction.

Bake

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

34. But blasting away at what?

If you sincerely believe in the rapture, at least enough to start shooting around, then why you believe that you could kill JC with a gun?

[Bake]

35. Note that I said it would be useless. Perhaps I should have said "futile."

Anyway, not all Xians are rapturists. Revelation speaks of Christ's return in judgment on a white horse with a sword.

The gun-lovers who think a gun is necessary in church might try to shoot at that, but as I said, that would be futile indeed.

Bake

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

36. Bad move on JC's part... never bring a sword to a gunfight

or something like that :)

[LibertyFox]

37. JC would still win.

Christ attribute gives Jesus a +20 to all defensive rolls involving firearm attacks.

Jesus saves and takes half damage.

[cleanhippie]

17. Yeah, sure you can.

:wtf:

[bluedeminredstate]

5. This is my adopted state's shame

What an asshole. I bet he would agree then that Dr. Tiller should have been armed and ready to fire back when he was asassinated in his own church!

[high_and_mighty]

11. Is that missing a sarcasm tag?

I am confused. It would have been bad for Dr. Tiller to have been armed? I don't think having the option to defend yourself is a bad thing. Though there isn't much anyone can do to stop someone determined to kill them. This isn't forcing anyone to be armed. It simply gives people a choice provided the place of worship doesn't ban it. I think thats a good thing. Pro choice for abortion, marriage and self defense.

[bluedeminredstate]

14. total sarcasm.

Yeah, sorry. It just seems like there isn't any place where these people don't think loaded weapons are necessary. My daughter-in-law and step-son brought loaded guns to my home last week. Her's was in her purse. She's not a gal who should be carrying a .357 Magnum. Anyway, I found out after they left. Otherwise I would have had them lock them in their trunk.

[brendan120678]

20. Who are "these people," that you speak of, exactly? (nt)

[ileus]

29. You should be able to trust your DIL and SS

[GreenStormCloud]

31. Why? Were you afraid that they intended to shoot you? N/T

[krispos42]

38. It's not even necessarily being in church

Even though, let's face it... it's a big room with minimal cover and only a couple of exits, and for a predictable hour every week, the place is full of people all facing forwards. Slip in the back door during the opening hymns, you'll have a shooting gallery before you.



But, people travel as well. There's getting to your car, driving there, parking, crossing the lot to the church; then back to the car and off to wherever you're next stop is. Or, walking to church for several blocks or more, then walking home. All of which are places where bad things can happen.

[Ian David]

7. They need to start having the gun sale at the church...

Gun Sale at the Church
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0npOg8TvJuE

[Logical]

8. Why would a church be any different than any place else? n-t

[HysteryDiagnosis]

9. When oh when will McDonalds start carrying RamboJesus action figures?? I'd

like to get a few for the kids on the street.

[TheCowsCameHome]

10. That'll put a stop to line-jumping at communion time.

Way overdue.

[cleanhippie]

18. Of course it will.

Always hyperbole, never a sound argument. :rofl:

[TheCowsCameHome]

23. Yep.

It's the gungeon.

[spin]

12. When I go to a church in Florida I carry ...

of course, that's a fairly rare event.

We have had concealed carry in Florida since 1987 and I can't remember any person with a concealed weapons permit shooting up a church.

If a church posted a "no-guns" sign I definitely would avoid going inside as that sign might draw some fool with a severe mental problem who wished to rack up a high score of "kills".

[Hoyt]

22. And how often does that fear occur? Not, often. Carry a defibrillator -- you might need one.

Is there any place on earth you actually feel safe without a gun?

[spin]

24. Fear is not the driving factor in my carrying - habit is...

I don't carry in places where it is forbidden, like a courtroom. Otherwise I normally carry a concealed weapon. Is there something about a church that makes it a safe place in your mind. If so, you need to Google church shootings. Such events are rare but they do happen.

I invested the time and effort as well as the money necessary to get a concealed weapons permit. I did this because I intended to carry. I received the license and it would be illogical for me not to carry. When I first got the license, I attempted to carry weapons like a Colt .45 auto. I quickly realized that this was a major pain in the ass especially in the Florida heat.

Eventfully I decided to carry a much smaller and lighter weapon, a S&W Model 642 .38 caliber revolver. There's a good reason it's named the Airweight - it's very light. I found it a weapon that was so easy to drop into my pants pocket (along with its holster) as I head out the door. I can carry all day comfortably.

Smith & Wesson Model 642

It was the best selling firearm offered by Smith & Wesson in 2006. Tradition holds that the original design emerged from the creative mind of Col. Rex Applegate. Among the small revolvers, it has been called a personal favorite by Walt Rausch, Massad Ayoob, Jim Wilson, Stephen Camp, Ken Hackathorn and many others. Jim Supica, author of The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, said that it was possibly the finest pocket revolver ever made. It is the Smith & Wesson Model 642 Airweight Centennial.

***snip***

Carry-ability The characteristic that first endeared me to the Airweight snubnose is a factor I had to make up a word for, carry-ability. Carry-ability is a matrix of weight, shape, size and power that when stirred together gives me a rating of ease and versatility of carry balanced against the level of security and confidence the gun gives me. The Airweights really hit the sweet spot for me on carry-ability. A Kel-Tec P32 is great on weight, size and shape, but suffers with an underpowered cartridge. The M1911 is a tremendous shooter with a powerful cartridge, and its even fairly flat for surprisingly good concealment, but it is large and heavy. Glocks are lighter, but they are thick and angular and I find them fairly difficult to conceal, especially in warm weather clothing. The Kel-Tec and the 1911 both rate highly in some parts of the matrix, but fall down badly in others. The small size and light weight of the 642 means that you can carry it for many hours in all kinds of clothing, and in a wide variety of carry modes belt holster, ankle holster, belly band, pocket, purse, etc.. It has tremendous versatility for carry while still loading a fairly powerful cartridge. The 642 rates very highly in carry-ability.

Snag-free Double Action Only Smith & Wesson builds a whole gaggle of Centennial variants, but they are distinguished primarily by their metals; the shape and action are the same. Taurus and Charter Arms also build their own versions of the Centennial closely patterned off of the original. These all share the enclosed hammer double action only design. There is little or no reason to have single action capability on a self-defense revolver, so why have a hammer sticking out to snag on things? The smooth hammerless contour of the gun makes it ideal for pocket or purse, and it can even be fired from inside a pocket without the problem of getting snagged in the fabric.
http://www.snubnose.info/docs/m642.htm

Now If I suffered from the fear you suggest, I would carry a larger weapon with a much higher capacity. Then I would be prepared for a Zombie attack.

Most Floridians that I know who carry on a regular basis carry smaller weapons as I do. None of them worry much about being attacked but I do personally know three people who have successfully used their concealed weapon to stop an attack. None of them had to fire a single shot.

[WhiteTara]

13. In cse God comes to smite you?

:shrug:

[spin]

32. It wasn't God or Satan who walked into the New Life Church in Colorado Springs ... ...

with an assault rifle and two handguns and perhaps 1000 rounds of ammo. It was Matthew J. Murray who had just finished an attack at the Youth With A Mission (YWAM) center in Arvada, Colorado where he killed two people and wounded two others.

Murray did manage to kill two people and wound three others before he was shot multiple times by Jeanne Assam, a volunteer security guard with a concealed weapons permit. Realizing that his chances of racking up a high score of kills in the mega-church were over, Murray committed suicide.

reference: 2007 Colorado YWAM and New Life shootings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Assam

[WhiteTara]

39. So, does that mean that we all need to carry guns

in church?

That was a horror what that man did.

[spin]

40. Of course not...

Not everybody should rush out to buy a firearm and get a concealed carry permit. That is an individual choice that requires a lot of careful thought.

Chances are that you will never have a need for a concealed weapon. Having said that I personally know three people who did use their concealed firearms to stop an attack. None had to fire a shot. Fortunately, I have never been in that position but I can't say for sure that I will always be lucky as I don't own a Chrystal Ball nor do I have the skill to use one.

Attacks on churches have increased in recent years but you have no reason to fear one in your church. I rarely go to church and if I do I carry because I always carry. It's a habit with me. On the way out the door I grab my keys and wallet and my S&W Airweight .38 caliber snub nosed revolver and its holster and drop all of them into my pants pockets.

I started this habit years ago after the range master who was a ex-cop chewed my ass. One day he asked me if I always carried. I replied that I only did so when I thought I might be in a dangerous area of town.

He replied, "Now I know you have a weapon that is easy to conceal and the skill to use it. The state of Florida, in all its wisdom, checked you out and granted you a license to carry a concealed firearm not because they thought that you were a nice guy, but because they felt that putting more honest citizens with guns on the streets might cause the crime rate to fall."

"Now they don't want you to play a cop because you definitely aren't one. They just want you to carry your weapon and to only use it in legitimate self defense."

"Now what I want you to do is to start carrying that weapon everywhere. I don't want to ever have you come in here and tell how if you would have had your firearm with you you could have stopped a mugger and I definitely don't want to read a newspaper story that describes you as an unarmed victim killed during a robbery."

I left and thought about what he had said and it made a lot of sense. So I started to carry everywhere and now its a habit.

I've been shooting handguns for over forty years. I've probably fired well over 200,000 rounds downrange (which really isn't a lot for a regular handgun shooter). I'm very familiar with my carry weapon and have run several thousand rounds through it. I don't have a volatile temper and I don't drink to excess. If I have had more than two beers I don't drive and I leave my revolver behind.

It may make sense for me to carry, but that doesn't mean that everybody should carry.

The first question any person who wishes to use a firearm for self defense should ask themselves is, "Could I shoot a person who is attacking me with the intention of seriously hurting or killing me knowing that I might seriously injure or kill him? Many if not most people have great difficultly doing this as it goes against all that we have learned. If you can't answer this question with a firm affirmative than don't consider a firearm for self defense. By the way, a negative answer is not something to be ashamed of.

I've tried to say that firearms are very dangerous items that require training and a great deal of responsibility to handle safely. Merely owning or carrying one does not guarantee safety, you have to have a particular mindset and a certain skill level with the weapon.

[Hoyt]

15. Yea, those choir boys/girls represent a real threat, so strap a gun to your leg and go to church.

[cleanhippie]

19. Always an insult or a strawman from you Hoyt, never a sound argument.

But its expected.

[brendan120678]

21. Nobody has ever been murdered in a church before, right?

So therefore there is no need to defend yourself with a firearm.

[WatsonT]

27. True/false

The only people in a church ever are choir boys/girls.

[Katya Mullethov]

33. PRESENT !!!!

[benEzra]

16. Having a few parishioners with CHL's certainly saved lives

at the New Life Church shooting in Colorado.

Personally, I don't quite understand why some people believe churches could be considered "holy ground" in the eyes of the civil law. I don't see why churches should be treated differently than any other private place of assembly with regard to carry licensure, and if a church doesn't want to allow carry, they are free to post a no-authorized-weapons sign.

[ileus]

28. Excellent.....I no longer have to disarm on Sunday!