Man dies from wounds after accidental shooting

[DrDan]

Beaverton police arrested a 60-year-old man in connection with a shooting that killed one man and injured another Monday night at the Mobile Home Corral.

Police said two brothers, 36-year-old Preston Wilson and 31-year-old Phillip Wilson, were both shot during the incident.

Phillip Wilson suffered a gunshot wound to his face, and died at Legacy Emmanuel Hospital Wednesday, surrounded by family. Preston Wilson suffered a gunshot wound to his finger.

. . .

The gun used in the shooting was registered to Laffoon, who holds a concealed weapons permit.

Alcohol appears to be a factor in the shooting as all three men were reportedly drinking throughout the evening, said Det. Pam Yazzolino, Beaverton police spokeswoman.

http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story.php?story_id=130322167411097000

****************************

ccw holder with a gun - alcohol - a death

[ileus]

1. don't drink and shoot your friends...what is a mobile home corral?

[NBachers]

2. It's a mobile home and RV park in Beaverville

http://www.city-data.com/businesses/405027350-mobile-home-corral-rv-park-beaverton-or.html

[bluerum]

3. Pulled out the gun to "defuse the struggle". Hmm.

I say let the drunks duke it out and break the furniture.

[jeepnstein]

4. And the carnage continues.

It's time to ban that Demon Rum. If they outlaw alcohol then "accidents" like this just couldn't happen. Do it for the children.

[gravity556]

5. "You know what, Stewart?

I like you. You're not like the other people here
in the trailer park. Oh no, don't get me wrong, they're fine people, good
Americans. But they're content to sit back, maybe watch a little Mork and
Mindy on channel 57. Maybe kick back a cool Coors 16-ouncer. They're
good fine people, Stuart"

Booze and guns, while sounding like a good idea (come on, Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms. Who bought the chips?) are on a bad idea scale-like amateur death ray construction and a leaky roof in a wet locale. Or fireworks and beer. Gotcha with that one, didn't I? Actually probably more dangerous than guns and beer//

[Logical]

6. Some gun owners are stupid. I agree. n-t

[cleanhippie]

7. I am glad we are in agreement bout how guns and booze do not mix.

We advocate the same thing. Great.


Was there another point you were trying to make?

[DrDan]

8. you did see the "ccw" part, right?

[spin]

12. While those gun owners who have carry permits are more law abiding ...

and misuse their firearms far less often than those gun owners who do not have carry permits, they are not angels.

Obviously with 8,000,000 to 10,000,000 people licensed to carry, there will be a few instances where a person with a license does something wrong with his weapon.

I don't believe that any of us who support concealed carry in the Gungeon ever said that those with a permit never commit a crime with their firearm.

[DrDan]

15. 2 in just a matter of days - the drunk in Missouri and this case

[cleanhippie]

18. So what? You keep trying to insinuate something, but refuse to just come out and say it. Why?

Stop playing games and make your point so we can get on with the discussion.

[DrDan]

22. perhaps CCW-holders are not as responsible as suggested

2 in the past few days - one resulting in a death.

But - you knew that.

[cleanhippie]

24. Ahh, so if that is your premise, that "CCW-holders are not as responsible as suggested"

then present your evidence and data to support your (dubious) claim. Two anecdotal current events stories do NOT invalidate the hard data, so unless you have something MORE to add to this, I will simply understand that you do not have any data or evidence to support your (fabricated) claim.

Your turn. Show us the evidence.

[DrDan]

26. you get the point

[cleanhippie]

33. The only point anyone here is getting is that you are intellectually dishonest in your attempt

to present an argument. If that was your point, then point made.

[DrDan]

36. you get the point

CCWers are clearly not as responsible as portrayed here

[rl6214]

43. We get the point that you were able to find two events

compare those to the general population, to the number of "events" that occur with non-ccw holders and give us the results then. Just the cold hard statistics.

[safeinOhio]

50. Apples and oranges.

I'll bet that nonCCW holders with the same criminal and mental records have about the same crime rate as those that do have a CCW license. When you compare a selected group to the whole population, of course you'll get skewed numbers when you include all of the criminals in only one group to begin with.

[cleanhippie]

53. Yes, I get the point that you are intellectually dishonest. Well done.

[AtheistCrusader]

28. Now correlate to the general population.

2 is not much of a statistical blip.

[DrDan]

30. who said those 2 were all of the CC-incidents?

Just the two that came to mind over the past couple of days.

[spin]

35. You are using a typical tactic of those who oppose concealed carry ...

You are promoting irrational fear and paranoia by trying to paint all people with carry permits as irresponsible based on the actions of a very few.

But if I were in your position I might do the same. It's hard to win a discussion when all the statistics and the facts prove you wrong.

[AtheistCrusader]

38. And all your work still lay before you to definitively show that CPL holders are less

law-abiding than the general public.

[DrDan]

39. you wouldn't be putting words in my mouth, now would you?

[AtheistCrusader]

40. Your words

"CCWers are clearly not as responsible as portrayed here"


Clearly? Go ahead and establish that. Since the pro-ccw contingent's claim is that CCW holders are STATISTICALLY more law abiding. Not 'universally' or whatever bar might actually meet your claim above.

[DrDan]

42. could you share the evidence that CCW holders are more law abiding

[AtheistCrusader]

45. Permit holders charges filed by Michigan.

This has been shown in various ways before, and I'm not going to do your homework for you.
Florida and Michigan report revocation of CPL's due to criminal activity. Michigan even shows CPL holders charged with a crime (not yet convicted).

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1645_3501_4621-102205--,00.html
http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-77621--,00.html

The VPC's own numbers show a lower murder rate among CPL holders.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x405758
(See post 6)


And Florida's revocation/suspension/renewal data.
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/news/reports.html

[DrDan]

47. so your statement is based on CPL revocation . . . and murder rates

and that is supposed to support a "law abiding" claim.

[AtheistCrusader]

48. As a percentage of total population. Yes.

[Starboard Tack]

60. They may well be more law abiding as a class. So what?

They usually go through more rigorous background checks and don't include felons. Law abiding behavior doesn't preclude stupid behavior. Carrying a gun brings them much closer to becoming potential felons. Stupid is as stupid does. It's their choice.

[Starboard Tack]

59. Who ever said they were less law abiding than the general public?

I've never seen anyone claim that. Toters do claim the opposite though and they may even be correct, as they mostly appear to have graduated from being hall monitors at the school of moral righteousness.

[Starboard Tack]

58. Those 2 jacked up the CC quota by about 5% for this year in 2 days

I'd call that more than a blip. You think more CC permits are gonna bring that number down?

[aikoaiko]

80. I think they are. No one suggested that permit.license holders never....

...accidentally or intentionally shot anyone. The clam has always been that they less likely than the general public.

I see no evidence to contradict that claim.

[safeinOhio]

49. You have made a great case

for applying the same rules for obtaining a CCW to the purchase of any handgun. More complete background checks, class in safe handgun handling and a class in gun laws in your state. I'd be all for that.

[AtheistCrusader]

55. Only the fingerprint check and FBI/State Patrol background check

applies in my state. Washington does no classes: shooting or legal.

[spin]

64. I actually have no problem with that ...

I'm sure the NRA would disagree.

[cleanhippie]

13. I did. I also saw that this happened in their home, so having a CCW was not relevant.

So again, I ask, did you have another point to make? Why not just come right out and make it.

[DrDan]

14. I seem to remember the many posts here relative to CCW holders and their

mature, responsible attitude toward guns.

Maybe I was mistaken . . . .

[cleanhippie]

17. Obviously, you are mistaken.

It has been posted, and proven with data, that as a group, CCW holders are many times MORE responsible and less likely to be involved in a gun crime than the average person.

Unless you are trying to say that this ONE instance, that took place at home, invalidates ALL of that data, again, I ask, WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

No need to be afraid to just say it. If your point is supported by factual data, you will have the upper hand.

[DrDan]

21. one instance? Just a few days ago there was another CCW holder

drunk on school property brandishing his weapon.

Those 2 are just in the past few days.

Ignore them if you like - but one resulted in a death.

[cleanhippie]

23. Since you seem averse to actually stating your point, is this it?

"Even though there are millions of CCW holders, and backed by the copious amounts of data that show that CCW holders are many times LESS likely to be involved in a gun crime than the general public, I present two anecdotal stories that I feel dismisses ALL of that."

Have I summed up your point? No? Then state your point.

[Starboard Tack]

61. You are absolutely correct

and people who wear scuba gear in the desert never drown.
Do you make all your decisions based on factual data, or do you ever resort to common sense and the occasional reality check?

[TPaine7]

67. Classic. A quote for the ages.

Do you make all your decisions based on factual data, or do you ever resort to common sense and the occasional reality check?

And now in context:

Starboard Tack (884 posts) Mon Apr-25-11 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
61. You are absolutely correct

Edited on Mon Apr-25-11 01:50 PM by Starboard Tack
and people who wear scuba gear in the desert never drown.
Do you make all your decisions based on factual data, or do you ever resort to common sense and the occasional reality check?
Keep it real.

This is pure genius. It brilliantly encapsulates the gun control viewpoint--there is a divide between factual data on the one hand and "common sense" and "reality" on the other. And obviously, we should pay less attention to factual data.

Stephen Colbert couldn't have put it better with a week to brainstorm.

Stephen usually presents resistance to factual data as a Republican position, however, for whatever that's worth. It's funny how rights opponents can't help aligning with each other.

Thanks.

[Starboard Tack]

71. If it were a right you wouldn't need a permit

Rights are for everyone, not the elite few.

[oneshooter]

73. So you now advocate for no permit concealed carry? Great! n/t

[Starboard Tack]

79. I don't advocate for any kind of carry

but open just seems to be more honest, offensive, but honest.

[RSillsbee]

74. Alaska, Arizona, Vermont, Wyoming

and soon Montana all agree w/ you which is why they (except Vermont who never had one) have done away w/ their permitting process and have acknowledged that their citizens have a right to carry their firearms at their discretion.

More states will join them as American gun laws become more progressive

[Starboard Tack]

81. That's great. Hopefully they'll all be as responsible as you

Fortunately, those are states where very few people live. So I don't foresee any problems. They are also the states with the highest suicide rates, so it should all even out in the end.

[TPaine7]

77. Concealed carry is not a right, per se.

Carry is.

Most localities still refuse to fully accept the right of the people to keep and bear arms. That doesn't change the people's actual rights, just the recognition of those rights. (If you don't accept the distinction between actual and recognized rights, read up on the "Alien and Sedition Act", or the Bush regime's Orwellian "Free Speech Zones", for that matter.)

In any event, I think you should consider basing your decisions and positions on factual data, just like those of us who support gun rights.

[Starboard Tack]

82. Thank you for the education.

Obviously not everyone interprets those rights in the same way. My arguments are not so much about rights, as about behavioral choices. I believe owning and keeping arms is a right. Even carrying may be a right, but toting in town is just bad manners, like spitting.

[TPaine7]

83. I'm honored that you found something that I wrote edifying. I appreciate your kind words.

I see manners differently than you do.

Manners are often arbitrary. The words "thank" and "fuck"--as in "thank you" and "fuck you"--could easily have their meanings reversed, with no real change. Neither word is inherently good or bad. (In fact, that would be a great show for a hypnotist to put on--having a prim lady saying "fuck you, sir" to a cultured gentlman, with both of them offended at another person's open use of the vulgarity "thank."

The things that are substantively rude--or polite--have to do with treating people fairly, considerately and with respect. You can do that whether or not you're carrying. Or whether or not your weapon is concealed.

[friendly_iconoclast]

84. Also, factual data is poisonous to moral panics.

I can see why some would object to it...

[gejohnston]

69. factual data=reality check

to answer your question, most of the time but I have a good gut instinct when none is available (or maybe instinct is simply factual data on a sub conscious level?) Common sense? Einstein said it best: "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age 18"

[AtheistCrusader]

41. By all means, cite some universal, blanket statement that *all* CCW Holders are

mature/responsible with firearms.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

[AtheistCrusader]

27. Still illegal to be intoxicated while in possession of a firearm.

A CPL is no defense/excuse.

(Nor was one necessary in his own home)

[Atypical Liberal]

9. Anecdotes are not indicative of a trend.

ccw holder with a gun - alcohol - a death

I'm assuming the point of posting this news event and your comment is to show that this sort of thing is a common occurrence. It is not. This anecdote simply highlights one of the rare ocassions when a CCW permit holder has engaged in a crime.

How do we know it is rare? By looking at the statistical data that states like Texas and Florida have provided for over a decade. We can see that in Texas, for example, the rate of conviction of CCW permit holders for everything from Public Lewdness to Homicide is a mere .026%. This is less than for the public at large. This means that CCW permit holders are less likely to be involved in any kind of crime, let alone firearm-related crime, than your average citizen.

Do CCW permit holders get involved in crimes? Yes. Does it happen very often? No.

[DrDan]

11. 2 in a matter of a few days - the idiot in Missouri drunk flashing his

weapon on school grounds - and this one. Both CCW holders.

[Atypical Liberal]

16. 2 in millions is nothing.

2 in a matter of a few days - the idiot in Missouri drunk flashing his weapon on school grounds - and this one. Both CCW holders.

All of the above is true.

It is also true that this is completely irrelevant to what the statistics tell us about CCW permit holders. 2 examples out of tens of millions of concealed carry permit holders is statistically meaningless.

I encourage you to read this thread concerning the rate of conviction of CCW permit holders in Texas. Other states are similar:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=374332

Yes, CCW permit holders do commit crimes, even with firearms. But it is extremely rare.

[Starboard Tack]

63. Statistically meaningless?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=406077&mesg_id=406077

"They track deaths caused by Conceal Carry (CC) license holders. They have tracked 298 deaths since May 2007 caused by CC. These include suicide, murders, etc. Any illegal deaths cause by CC. Of course many of these deaths would have happened even if the person did not have a CC license but lets use the worse case numbers.....298 over 4 years or about 75 per year."

75/year means 1 every 5 days. Let's see how that holds with more permits being handed out like pizza fliers.

[AtheistCrusader]

66. In most states, nothing has changed WRT issuance rates.

I would also like to see "These numbers do not include any killings determined by authorities to be lawful self-defense."

Funny, these one-issue advocacy groups never mention the lawful counter-use when pushing these things.

With the Department of Justice listing over 60,000 legal defensive uses of firearms per year, one wonders why the rate of malfeasance is never contrasted in the light of lawful use?

[Starboard Tack]

72. How do they verify the 60,000 legal defense uses per year?

Paper never refuses ink

[cleanhippie]

19. By your (lack of) logic then, any anecdotal evidence is proof of a larger point?

Am I getting you right? Just come out and say what you want to say. No need to be scared. If your point is well-founded and supported by factual data, you will get no disagreement.
Come on, no need to be afraid, just make your point.

[DrDan]

25. no reason to get offensive - you get the point - CCW-holders are perhaps

not as responsible as suggested many times in this forum

[AtheistCrusader]

29. By all means, present some evidence so.

[DrDan]

31. 2 cases of gross conduct in the past couple of days

1 drunk brandishing a weapon on school property
1 death

both CCW-related

Sure suggests to me some irresponsible behavior.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtheistCrusader]

37. You realize you are countering a statistical trend with 2 anecdotes right?

You're going to need a lot more evidence to show that statistical trend is invalid.

Specifically because the claim is not that ALL CCW advocates ARE more law abiding.

[petronius]

51. And a snowstorm in March means AGW is a myth, right?

[AtheistCrusader]

56. Uh oh.

He went there.

ka-blammo

[petronius]

68. I'm seeing a lot of parallels: the over-reliance on anecdote, the claims that

the government is refusing to do research or collect data that would support their point (so obviously, unseen mountains of such data must exist, right?), and complaints that the authorities (forum mods, around here) are censoring otherwise reasonable arguments. Not particularly compelling arguments, in any context...

[PavePusher]

86. In any college math or science class....

your professor would, at best, gently point out that you are making wild extrapolations from insufficient data.

If they had already lost patience with you, their terms would be... stronger.

[cleanhippie]

32. Not getting your point at all. You seem to be making a claim, but refuse to support it

with relevant, factual data that counters the well-substantiated fact that CCW holders are much more responsible that the general population.

If anything, I am frustrated at your continued assertion that an anecdotal story or two somehow negates everything else. Perhaps when you have an actual valid argument, supported by facts, we can continue. Until then, you are just a game player with no agenda other than to try and create a controversy that simply is not there, and instead have created controversy about yourself.

Let me know when you are ready for that factual conversation. :hi:

[safeinOhio]

52. Good point.

"substantiated fact that CCW holders are much more responsible that the general population." That makes a great case for applying the same requirements to purchase and possess a handgun as obtaining a CCW. That would go a long way in reducing handgun crime, using your facts and logic.

[RSillsbee]

65. So what you're saying is that you are a gun owner

(just like us) but you want to add more restrictions to hand gun purchases even though gun accidents and violent crime are at historically low levels and gun ownership is at historically high levels.

What would be the purpose of such legislation? Other than to make it more difficult for the law abiding to obtain handguns.

Good thing you support RKBA (just like the rest of us gun owners)

[X_Digger]

70. *gasp* 2 makes it a trend! (or something like that)..

Is that what you're saying?

[Straw Man]

85. So that's two in two days.

Two in the past few days? OK, say one a day, or 365 a year. Taking the low estimate of 8,000,000 permit holders in the US, that yields a rate of .00004653 percent of CCW holders involved in criminal misuse of their firearms. Any such incident is regrettable, of course, and should be met with the full weight of the law. But it hardly looks as though the sky is falling. Perhaps you have some other numbers to share?

[Starboard Tack]

62. And so it should be. Toters have set themselves a higher standard

than the rest of us plebes. When you do that, you must be prepared for scrutiny or risk losing all credibility.

[rl6214]

10. And your point is?

[cleanhippie]

20. Who knows? He keeps dancing around an anecdotal premise, but I think he is afraid to just come out

and state his point.

[Hoyt]

44. Another CCW permit holder gone bad. This is becoming quite common, despite what carriers say.

Looks like all those stats that supposedly "proved" CCW holders hardly ever commit a crime with the one or two guns they feel compelled to strap to their bodies when they go out in public.


Laffoon could even be one of our very own favorite gun carriers.

[AtheistCrusader]

46. Please specify what 'quite common' means.

Quite common as a percentage of population, or quite common among confirmation bias selection in this forum?

[cleanhippie]

54. Only common in your head, Hoyt. Perhaps you should see someone about that.

In case it starts to spread.

[DrDan]

57. ccw-drunk brandishing a weapon on school grounds, ccw-er pulling his gun to settle a dispute

why does the following not surprise me.

http://www.ky3.com/news/ky3-story-accident-shooting-class-kills-mountain-grove-police-department-employee-20110309,0,4494185.story

[jpak]

75. Yet aother "responsible" "law abiding" CCW permit holder

yup

[Remmah2]

76. How do you feel about licensed drivers who speed in school zones? nt

nt

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.