Suspected terrorists able to buy guns legally in U.S. - (thank you NRA)

[jpak]

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/40634

In 2010, 247 people on the American government’s terrorism watch list were, somehow, able to legally purchase guns in the United States.

Despite their listing on what is supposed to be one of the most sensitive monitoring system in the world, each of these people managed to pass the background tests required to purchase a firearm.

Why? Because even though those on the list are suspected of ties to groups that want to wage war on the United States, it is not illegal — under current law — for those on the terror list to buy weapons and the National Rifle Association wants to keep it that way.

This bothers Democratic Sen. Frank Lautenberg of New Jersey, who wants to change the law to keep weapons out of the hands of suspected terrorists.

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[Remmah2]

1. Patriot Act, Terror Watch List, Eroding Constitution, George Bush.

Guilty till proven innocent?

Any questions?

Yup

[one-eyed fat man]

9. You just don't understand

Those secret unconstitutional, Bush watchlists are terrible, vile and despicable....warrantless searches, entrapment...are perfectly suited to use against people he hates.

All of that stupid stuff in the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth or Fourteenth Amendments was never meant to apply to the Untermenschen.

"Jedem das Seine"

[ret5hd]

2. Somehow, limiting gun ownership to only those the right considers worthy...

doesn't seem reasonable to me.

[Remmah2]

15. Sort of like putting children on a no fly list. nt

nt

[DrDan]

3. I guess it is the price we must pay to insure arsenal-enhancement for all

Just part of the NRA/GOP plan.

[friendly_iconoclast]

53. "NRA/GOP plan" = Prohi version of "Obama is a secret Muslim"

Same mindset, different bugbear...

[Euromutt]

56. It does bear a whiff of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion

Difference being that the Protocols actually existed, even though they were forged by the Russian imperial secret police.

[formercia]

4. I'm one of those on the watch list.

and I think this whole issue is bullshit.

Bush Gang used that list to harass anyone that disagreed with them. I wound up there as a result.

If someone commits a crime, they get arrested. Period. otherwise...never mind. It's pointless trying to argue with idiots.

[YllwFvr]

5. There are politicians on the list

And people have been put on there by accident with no way to be removed. Suspected isnt a conviction in a court of law and shouldnt hold any weight.

[petronius]

47. a mistake on one of the "most sensitive monitoring system(s) in the world"? That's unpossible!

I'm not at all impressed to see progressives calling for expanded use of these secretive watch lists - I would think that opposing them is one thing we'd all agree on. :shrug:

[lawodevolution]

6. Jpak wants to remove the rights of those in government black lists

These are suspects and almost all are innocent, but don't let that get in the way of converting us into a banana republic where all the government needs is to suspect a person is guilty before rights are taken away and invent laws on the fly.

[jpak]

7. lawodevolution has a vibrant fantasy life

:rofl:

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oneshooter]

17. So you don't want to remove the rights of those on government no fly lists? n/t

[jpak]

21. Do you want AQ operatives buying AKs with 75 round magazines and Barrett rifles?

:shrug:

[rl6214]

24. Do you have any proof that this has happened?

[WatsonT]

34. Ahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahah

Yeah they're going to come here to buy those where they are extremely difficult to get and expensive rather than get them from some street vendor in Afghanistan.

Your paranoia knows no bounds.

Also being on this list =! AQ operatives, Ok Mr. Bush?

[krispos42]

38. Do you want the government to arbitrarily decided if a person can buy a gun?

Yours is a dumbass question. If they are KNOWN Al Qaeda operatives, then they will have a warrant out for their arrest... and therefore be unable to legally buy a gun anyway.

I'd be far more worried about them buying explosives than guns, anyway.

[Oneka]

45. There is

A difference between suspected AQ member and one who has been
Proven so in court. Most people would call that difference,
Due process, it pains me to know that folks like you are willing
Overlook that simple truth when it fits your agenda.

[aikoaiko]

50. If they know someone is AQ, then detain them or send them off

[Straw Man]

54. Do you really think that Al-Qaeda buy their weapons retail in the United States?

No offense, but that's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

[rl6214]

23. Reworded

Jpak wants to remove the 2A rights of those in government black lists

[WatsonT]

19. Seems absurd that we'd allow terrorists to vote

or have a trial by jury.

Everyone on those lists should be permanently stripped of all rights and due process! That way jpak can feel safe.

[DonP]

26. Fuck that "rights" shit - let's just string em all up

After all, if they wanted to buy a firearm they must be scum of the earth and evil at heart. Hell, they may even decide to go deer hunting and we aren't going to stand for possible Al Queda allies like the Kennedy family buying guns. Get the rope and some torches dammit!

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rl6214]

31. Quite a fairytale for you, isn't it?

[PavePusher]

32. Well, feel free to consult the local D.A. who makes the decision to prosecute or not.

I'm sure you have some insight they can use, amIrite?

[WatsonT]

35. Yep, that's what they teach us in GOP-NRA-AL-Qaeda training

which all gun owners must attend: shoot 'em in the back for no reason, especially if they're women or children.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. Membership on those lists is not documented nor appealable

[formercia]

14. Those on the 'list' find out soon enough

Every time I fly, buy a gun, the list goes on and on....I get fucked with. You can't prove you're on the list, but you surely know someone is fucking with you.

What happened to due process and being able to face your accusers?

The US is turning into the old Soviet Union.


Anyone pushing this 'Terrorists buying Guns' meme is either a dupe or a sockpuppet for the PTB.

[X_Digger]

10. Yah, screw Lautenberg

It's called due process, you old zombie.

People on the Bushco patented supah sekrit-terrah list can also vote, serve on juries, protest, practice religion, and be free from unwarranted searches and seizures.

Authoritarian bullshit.

[formercia]

39. Lautenberg means well, for a Dupe.

He's from New Jersey, where a person was arrested for having a hollow point projectile on a key chain. He can't see outside of his little bubble.
Most people here in Maine have guns, but you don't see any more gun related crime per-capita than New Jersey. The whole gun argument is bullshit propaganda to pit the Left against the Right.
The guns are not going away. Spend your energy wisely. Forget the gun issue.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

11. I'm sorry your beloved Bush watchlists aren't as sacrosanct as you'd like them to be.

Unfortunately for your wildest dreams, jpak, due process is required before restricting any rights in America.

Due Process - THANK YOU CONSTITUTION!! :)

[Sadena Meti]

12. National FIreams Act

To make a change to exclude people on the watch list from buying firearms legally would require would require rewriting the National Firearms Act (NFA). And the NRA knows that if this was undertaken, it wouldn't be the only change made.

Besides, the law doesn't matter. Anyone can get a gun. There's the private seller loophole (I can sell you my gun, cash and carry, no ID), the gun show loophole (same as the private seller loophole), shill buyers (guy with clean record buys 10 guns for his friends), and the black market.

Also, to deny someone a Constitutional right based only on suspicion only is, well, un-Constitutional. Think of the black lists they could draw up. Think of COINTELPRO. How many leftists would be put on firearm black lists?

[DonP]

13. Another progressive embracing a filthy Bush/Cheney Doctrine

Absolutely disgusting.

Are you going to come out for more Drone strikes in Pakistan next? How about supporting those military tribunals, did you buy that T-shirt yet?

About every 2 or 3 months we get the same shit again and again about terrorists buying guns. Then we find out it's people embracing the Bush/Cheney "watch" list that has been so well managed Ted Kennedy was on it. An unconstitutional guilty until proven innocent and no way to prove you are innocent provided. Nice Catch 22.

It's amazing the fucking filth that gun control people will embrace if it supports more gun control.

[WatsonT]

20. I've got a feeling that as long as he could do away with guns

he would support shredding the constitution.

Better to have no rights than to have many rights that also include the right to bear arms.

[jpak]

25. Paranoid fantasy much?

:rofl:

[DonP]

27. Who created and maintained the list for 7 years laughing boy?

Try and laugh it off but you choose to lie down with Bush and Cheney on this.

Your good buddy GW Bush and Cheney put the list together against the wishes of most Democrats in Congress at the time. Both Kerry and Obama ran against keeping an unreviewed secret list and you support it.

How do you get on or off the list? What kind of due process is involved?

Face it, you've embraced a filthy GOP unconstitutional terrah watch list just because you think it will cut down on gun buying.

[jpak]

28. yeah - ya got me

:rofl:

[krispos42]

37. Yup.

It's critically important to you to drastically reduce the number of guns and gun-owners in this country, and you don't particularly care what methods or laws are used to do it.


Put it in your sigline so EVERYBODY is clear about it.

[WatsonT]

30. Let's see, you're the one outraged that people on this list still have rights

seems you feel that banning guns trumps every other right (including trial by jury).

Which rights wouldn't you give up to get rid of guns, that might be easier to answer.

[rl6214]

33. No, look at post 29, that is a "paranoid fantasy"

YUP

YUP

YUP

[oneshooter]

40. Do you answer questions directed at you much? Silence of the fearful. n/t

[WatsonT]

18. Illegal to deny someone their rights without a trial

a suspected terrorist has never been convicted of anything or been given a chance to plead their case. If this were anything else you'd be staunchly in favor of maintaining their rights.

[rl6214]

22. Unrec, what's your point? Do you have a point to make?

Is this just your normal drive-by spamming?

You forgot to include your normal NRA/GOP SHTICK.

[DonP]

46. He can't include it

He's endorsing a GOP/Bush/Cheney Shtick/ Hard to laugh at the people who's idea you're supporting.

[krispos42]

36. Ah, so "suspected terrorists" like Randi Rhodes and the late Ted Kennedy...

...should not be allowed to buy guns?


How about people from PETA?


You do realize that there is absolutely NO due process or judicial review to be placed on the list, right?

[oneshooter]

42. He/she/it don't care. As long as he/she/it is not on the list. n/t

[krispos42]

43. And probably not if he/she/is IS on the list! n/t

[ZombieHorde]

41. Nobody's rights should be impeded because of a silly list.

Fucking Christ.

[PavePusher]

44. Wait, wait, this sounds familiar...

"I have here in my hand a list of 205 . . . a list of names that were made known to the Secretary of State as being members of..."


http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6456/

[TPaine7]

48. I join you in thanking the NRA for its part in ensuring that

SUSPECTED terrorists can legally buy guns. I hope Bush fans are defeated, ensuring that SUSPECTED murderers, SUSPECTED armed robbers and SUSPECTED (but uncharged) criminals of every sort can exercise all of their rights.

I know one suspected CONFIRMED idiot on this site who should be grateful that strict mental standards aren't enforced; the idiot in question claims to own weapons (despited rabidly opposing rights for others).

"Yup."

[ileus]

49. Define "terrorist watch list" who is on it? Tea partiers? CHP holders? Survival book buyers?

people who buy survival books?

[Glassunion]

51. Good for the NRA... This article is so full of bullshit and lies...

"247 people on the American government’s terrorism watch list were, somehow, able to legally purchase guns in the United states."
Were these 247 people actual terrorists? Or do they just share a name with one? Also, the reason they were able to buy a firearm is that they have done NOTHING illegal.

"Despite their listing on what is supposed to be one of the most sensitive monitoring system in the world"
For one thing it is nowhere near the "most sensitive monitoring system in the world". To say that is quite laughable. It is a bloated list of about 450,000 names. Do we honestly have 450,000 terrorists running around the US right now? Bullshit.

"it is not illegal — under current law — for those on the terror list to buy weapons and the National Rifle Association wants to keep it that way."
A fucking lie... The NRA was opposed to it for several reasons. Not one of them was so that terrorists could buy guns. They opposed it because a denial for a purchase could be arbitrary with absolutely nothing to do with terrorism. They opposed it because there was no appeal process. The opposed is because it gave the executive branch too much power with no oversight.

"This bothers Democratic Sen. Frank Lautenberg of New Jersey, who wants to change the law to keep weapons out of the hands of suspected terrorists."
This one is funny. Would this law keep a firearm out of the hands of a suspected terrorist? Or would it keep firearms out of the hands of law abiding people who happen to share the same name as one?

"Under current law, convicted felons and illegal immigrants cannot buy weapons and the terror watch list is a secret document of those suspected — not necessarily convicted — of crimes."
Suspected being the key word... How many liberals ended up on the list when they spoke out against the war, or GWB? What was their crime? Were they honestly suspected of terrorism? Bullshit again.

"The list includes suspected members of al-Qaida and other terrorist organizations, terror financiers, terror recruiters and people who attended training camps. Most people never know whether they’re on it."
Ted Kennedy was on the list. Actually he is still on the list. Would anyone here have denied a civil right to the late senator? Was he untrustworthy? Was he a menace or a danger to the US? Was Ted Kennedy a terrorist? Would we deny the senator due process because his name is on a list? Fuck no as far as I'm concerned.

It goes on and on...

So, does the Democratic Party now suddenly embrace this list? I recall we were appalled when Bush Co. came up with this bull shit. A secret black list that the government holds over its people.

Look at it like this... Here is the biggest problem with the list. Robert Johnson. It's a nice name. A revolutionary blues man early last century. But, somewhere in the world, there is a terror suspect named Robert Johnson. Problem is, this means that there are 33,841 people who some here are calling a terrorist. Well, if the Robert Johnsons of the US are so fucking evil, why are they allowed to run free? Why are we not arresting every Robert Johnson right now?

You have a bullshit list of people so deadly we have to double pat their crotch before they get on a plane, a willingness to deny them their civil rights and due process, but so fucking innocent that we cannot arrest them. Why? Because they are completely innocent.

I will continue to stand against this list in all of its uses. It is a worthless list.

[Euromutt]

52. The "watch list" and "no-fly list" don't contain actual suspected terrorists

These lists are composed of names, not people; just names without further identifying information. As a result, anyone whose name matches one on the list can get hassled.

Case in point: the late senator Ted Kennedy. Kennedy himself wasn't on the "no-fly list"; the list contained the partial name "T. Kennedy" (apparently an alias used once by a suspected terrorist), so anyone with a name that matched "T. Kennedy" in some way got hassled: Tamara Kennedy, Tara Kennedy, Theresa Kennedy, Thomas Kennedy, Timothy Kennedy, and indeed Ted Kennedy.

On top of that, do you know how serious a threat the people whose names and/or aliases have been placed on the "watch list" are considered to be? Such a dire threat that, when someone of that name tries to board a commercial passenger aircraft, they're, well, watched (hence "watch list"). These are the people who are "randomly" selected for extra screening, so their person and their carry-on gets searched a little more intensively, but they're not arrested on the spot, or even prevented from boarding the plane. They're watched.

[AtheistCrusader]

55. What's that, people able to exercise their rights when put on a list without due process?

Well that just sounds downright unamerican.

At least, post-2000 american.

[GreenStormCloud]

57. Amazing to see a supposed progressive support the Bush secret list.

How very authoritarian.