Johnson: Children are the future of our gun culture

[jpak]

http://www.denverpost.com/billjohnson/ci_18054414

<snip>

Do adults love guns? Kids will love guns.

If you look this up, it will absolutely break your heart.

Go ahead, call up Google, type "student gun" in the search field, hit the "News" button and welcome to the wild, wild West:

May 10: "A bus driver in North Carolina is being hailed as a hero after convincing a gun- wielding seventh-grader to hand over his loaded gun during a terrifying bus ride."

<more>

[virginia mountainman]

1. Problem with that??

My kids already own M1 rifles, and practice regularly with me.

My 14 year old daughter, "Little Miss prim and proper" is even learning ammunition reloading!! Very proud of them both!

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jpak]

4. I'm working on it!

They are not hard to find

yup

:hi:

[eqfan592]

6. Sadly, accidents do happen.

And there are those who try to educate to help prevent them, and those who block such education and yet continue to make use of the stories for their own political gain. Apparently, however, point this out is against the rules here.

[gejohnston]

23. I'm curious to know what the deleted reply was

[eqfan592]

27. It was my reply...

...and honestly, I didn't say much different than what I said in my next reply after the deletion. Apparently pointing out the fact that certain users fight against firearm education and yet make use of the accident stories that result from the lack of education for their own political motives is against a rule. I think it was the fact I named somebody out directly that got it deleted.

[Hoyt]

3. We'll see how some "gun culture" parents feel when one of their kids is waving at them from jail.

[eqfan592]

7. Actually, statistically speaking...

...kids that are raised to use firearms safely are less likely to commit firearms related crimes, or even do drugs for that matter, not more. This is from a DOJ study done in the mid 90's.

http://www.uhuh.com/guns/libgun.htm

[Hoyt]

8. I would suggest reading the actual study rather than relying on some Libertarian, right wing site.

Here's the link and a relevant section:

Adolescent ownership and use of firearms is a growing concern, and results
from the Rochester study suggest the concern is well founded.

By the ninth and tenth grades, more boys own illegal guns (7 percent) than own
legal guns (3 percent). Of the boys who own illegal guns, about half of the
whites and African-Americans and nearly 90 percent of the Hispanics carry
them on a regular basis.

Figure 13 shows a very strong relationship between owning illegal guns and
delinquency and drug use.

Seventy-four percent of the illegal gunowners commit
street crimes, 24 percent commit gun crimes, and 41 percent use drugs. Boys
who own legal firearms, however, have much lower rates of delinquency and
drug use and are even slightly less delinquent than nonowners of guns.

The socialization into gun ownership is also vastly different for legal and illegal
gunowners. Those who own legal guns have fathers who own guns for sport and
hunting. On the other hand, those who own illegal guns have friends who own
illegal guns and are far more likely to be gang members. For legal gunowners,
socialization appears to take place in the family; for illegal gunowners, it
appears to take place “on the street. . . . . . . ”

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/urdel.pdf

_____________________


Notice that the study is looking at kids WHO GET ILLEGAL guns. If you are given an "illegal gun", then you automatically are likely in a difficult family situation. That's like saying those whose parents give them a car, are less like to be a criminal someone who has a stolen car. Jeez.

Also, take a good look at the site where your right wing article came from.

[gejohnston]

9. which has what to do with us

For legal gunowners, socialization appears to take place in the family; for illegal gunowners, it appears to take place “on the street"

Since legal gunowners usually grew up with guns and involved in the shooting sports and outdoors, while the illegal ones most likely did not. Odds are the illegal owners became owner once on the street and not in the home. We agree about illegal owners but I fail to see what your problem is with the former.
I would not always call libertarians right wing, their ideas on corporate personhood yeah but not other issues.

[Hoyt]

15. "The growing up with guns" is not what determines delinquency as the right winger indicated.

I'm not going to waste too much time explaining the significance to you.

The rich kids who were given shotguns worth thousands of dollars at 10 years old definitely grew up exhibiting less delinquency than the poor kid whose parents abandoned him and who somehow picked up an illegal gun. The guns didn't make them good or bad. Their friggin environment did. The right wing Libertarian in the OP link is too stupid to know that or just a friggin Ahole. I'll leave it to you to decide about those who spread such crap here.

[gejohnston]

16. you might be amazed but we actually agree on that point

But many antis imply the opposite of what you just typed. Since I grew up blue collar and got a single shot .22 at eight, worth maybe a couple hundred bucks in todays money, that put me in neither camp.

[Hoyt]

22. I remember getting my .22 as well. My dad was a big target shooter with some really nice pistols.

He also had a decent collection of old civil war muskets, Winchester 73s, a really cool Evans Repeater with a 40 shot magazine, WWII weapons, 1870s Colt 44, and more. Sold most of them on an internet auction site just because I got tired of hauling them around and needed some money for my mom when she got sick.

I'm really not anti-gun, just anti-guns in public and anti-gun promotion.

[beevul]

24. Pfft.

"I'm really not anti-gun, just anti-guns in public and anti-gun promotion."


Funniest. Shit. Ever.

:rofl:




No thanks. not interested in any of that Arizona oceanfront property either.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gejohnston]

30. So how did you get turned to the dark side?

[lawodevolution]

20. It's the way they are introduced to guns. If a thug introduces a kid to guns the kid has a much

higher chance of using the gun for bad things. If a law-abiding gun owner teaches a kid about guns, the kid will think guns are for target shooting and self defense.

[eqfan592]

28. Wow, you just missed the point entirely, didn't you?

Many antis posit the idea that properly educating kids about firearms will bread criminals. In fact, you YOURSELF actually suggested that very thing. I provided evidence that showed that was, in fact, incorrect. Does that speak a lot to the different environments that the kids were raised in? OF FUCKING COURSE IT DOES! I don't think anybody thought that the guns the kids were learning about were imbibed with some magical power to keep kids out of crime. Clearly the kids were coming from different environments, but the ultimate point was that, in the correct environment, firearms education is very effective and can have a positive impact, and that kids who are property educated are less likely to be waving to mom and dad from behind bars, as you put it, not more so.

EDIT: Sorry that was "Waving at them from jail." It was so idiotic that I think my brain refused to hang onto it for very long.

[Hoyt]

33. Well, you guys are for making guns commonplace everywhere. That will cause problems.

When we have toters walking into a store forgetting they have one gun in a holster and one tucked in their back, it's becoming a bit much (there's a thread here about that fool). I don't think guns are the answer to our problems. I do think kids being taught/encouraged to pack will cause problems down the line. If nothing else, criminals will just start shooting people immediately because they might be armed. And a few Loughners will come along too. Just about everyone of the mass murders committed by teenagers were kids whose parents were into guns.

Your evidence does not show that teaching kids about firearms keeps them from becoming criminals. It could have been fishing, baseball, or building a soap box derby car.

[eqfan592]

34. Actually, the evidence DID show that...

...and you even admit as much in your self-contradictory final statement. Simply because the same would have been true if it was some other interest that was being pursued is beside the point, as it served as an effective counter to your initial proposition that teaching kids about guns would land them in jail.

As for the rest of your post, you are welcome to feel how you want, but honestly, this isn't about guns being the answer to our problems as a society. At least not for the vast majority of us. It's about civil rights and a right to defend ourselves effectively. I don't carry a pistol because I think I'm going to lower the crime rate, I do it so that if I have to I can more effectively defend myself and my family. Nor do I think more people carrying is going to lead to a future problem as you are postulating, because the evidence to date simply doesn't support that hypothesis. Yes, the story of that man forgetting he was carrying is unfortunate, but people are human and make mistakes, and making a generalization of all people that carry off of that one person is simply not intelligent. That's like saying all air traffic controllers are lazy bums based off of the actions of a very small few (and even most of those few I think have been overly vilified, but that's another post for another time). It simply isn't true and doesn't hold water when you look at the big picture. The same applies to concealed carry.

No, guns are not going to solve all our problems, but they aren't the cause of them either, which is what many here postulate. Heck, they aren't even a secondary factor when it comes to the causes. The causes of our crime problems are far deeper than the implement criminals make use of, and the more time we waste fighting these unnecessary battles over firearms, the worse the problem gets and the harder it will be to tackle them.

[Hoyt]

35. No, it's about improving society -- not whether you feel safer with guns tucked in your waistband.

[eqfan592]

36. We can improve society....

...and still allow people who chose to do so a means to effectively defend themselves (and not have to rely on their mad martial arts skillz). I attempted to underscore this for you in my previous post, but your one line of gibberish simply underscores that attempting to have a rational conversation with you is a total waste of time.

[eqfan592]

29. Self Delete

EDIT: Sorry I didn't include this in my other reply. I honestly forgot that I had replied to this message already when typing this one up. :P

[one-eyed fat man]

21. From the sections you quoted

"Boys who own legal firearms, however, have much lower rates of delinquency and drug use and are even slightly less delinquent than non owners of guns.

The socialization into gun ownership is also vastly different for legal and illegal gunowners. Those who own legal guns have fathers who own guns for sport and hunting. On the other hand, those who own illegal guns have friends who own illegal guns and are far more likely to be gang members. For legal gunowners, socialization appears to take place in the family; for illegal gunowners, it appears to take place “on the street. . . . . . . ”"



You constantly condemn those who lawfully use firearms, yet you say, "Notice that the study is looking at kids WHO GET ILLEGAL guns. If you are given an "illegal gun", then you automatically are likely in a difficult family situation. That's like saying those whose parents give them a car, are less like to be a criminal someone who has a stolen car. Jeez.

That's the cultural problem you refuse to discuss. Like the kid in Michigan who killed his classmate. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=338572&mesg_id=338585

I learned to hunt growing up on a farm. My father didn't have a lot of interest in hunting, but he made sure to teach me and encouraged me to with my uncles and great uncle. My oldest son likes deer hunting. The youngest cares not a whit. My nephews hunt occasionally and I have one niece who went deer hunting just to show up her brothers. They are all gainfully employed, there's a couple of masters degrees, an airport manager, a math teacher, a high school football coach, and a chemical engineer in the bunch. Blue collar immigrant roots. Quaint and archaic appreciation for the value of hard work, integrity, and education. High standards and high expectations work. No one has more driving ambition than the teenage boy who wants to buy a car.

On the other hand, you have a culture that celebrates criminality as its highest form of expression. That kid will steal the car.

[gejohnston]

10. a new level of absurdity

why do antis equate target shooting and hunting with criminal behavior? I noticed that a lot. It is not a strawman I am using, your post at face value says just that. Based on your post, the Olympic pistol and biathlon teams are on the same level as MS 13 or the mob.

[WatsonT]

13. A response to that load of tripe from Dogbert:

[ileus]

5. My kids love shooting, they'll even shoot my AR's : they each own 22/410 combos already.

The whole family goes out shooting often, as the old saying goes "The family that shoots together, stays together."

[rl6214]

11. I have given each of my sons a rifle when they turned 18

and my oldest a pistol when he turned 21. When my 20yo turns 21 he gets one of my pistols and when my 16yo turns 18 he gets one of my rifles. They have all been brought up in the shooting sport and are all very responsible young adults.

Noticed how you skipped half of the article before you found a quote that fit your cause.

Where's your normal NRA/GOP shtick?

[gejohnston]

14. I got my first rifle when I was eight

first pistol I shot was an Arminius revolver that my moms that she got in a gun shop in Hamburg.

[WatsonT]

12. Shouldn't we actively cultivate an air of mystery and ignorance surrounding guns when discussing

such matters with children?

I mean that has worked so well with sex-ed and preventing teen pregnancies, why not take an abstinence only approach?

Maybe they could wear rings promising not to touch a gun until they're over the age of 21.

[lawodevolution]

19. this results in thug culture

When children are not taught about guns by their parents than when they are exposed to them and they will be. I take people to the range who have never shot a gun and whose parents have never shot a gun and who never have seen on except on a police officer. It's better that a member of the gun culture introduces them to guns and teaches them the code of conduct and safety rules and that guns are for legal uses than have a thug introduce them to guns and teach them how to commit crimes with them. So if you don't introduce your kids to shooting they may be introduced to guns either by a law abiding member of the gun culture or a member of the thug culture. By introducing my kids to law abiding gun ownership I guarantee that a thug will not be the one to teach my kids about guns and their use.

[oneshooter]

17. All three of my sons, along with my Loving Wife are competitive shooters.

I have built all of them a AR-15 rifle. The older boys, and myself shoot full course High Power, 200-600yds 3 position timed events. Loving Wife prefers to shoot the short course, 200yds for all positions and ever smaller bulls eyes. I have also built all of them custom hunting rifles. The youngest(13) currently shoots 50yd bullseye with a 22.

None of my sons have ever misused a weapon.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[lawodevolution]

18. When your kids are grown up Jpak I'll take them to the range and convert them to the gun side

hope you can handle that. Guns are fun because it's part of our nature to enjoy the application of science and firing a projectile is pure physics (and chemistry). Shooting at targets is very enjoyable and no matter how much you try to brainwash your kids that guns'r'bad they will be interested in guns when someone offers to take them to the range.

[gejohnston]

31. reminds me of a feature story I saw a few years ago

some years back, this kid on the Olympic shooting team having anti gun parents or something like that.

[WatsonT]

32. No!!!!!!!!!

A criminal will immediately run up and snatch the gun away from them and use it on them! Or they'll accidently use it to paralyze a loved one.

There is literally no possible way to use a firearm safely unless you are a felon.

:sarcasm: