Ted Nugent: 'More guns equals less crime'

[jpak]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/SHOWBIZ/05/17/piers.morgan.ted.nugent/

"Anybody that wants to disarm me can drop dead," Ted Nugent tells CNN's Piers Morgan. "Anybody that wants to make me unarmed and helpless, people that want to literally create the proven places where more innocents are killed called gun-free zones, we're going to beat you. We're going to vote you out of office or suck on my machine gun."

The rocker and gun rights activist known for hits like "Cat Scratch Fever" and "Stranglehold" and nicknamed the "Motor City Madman" gives his unique take on firearms, America, and more on Wednesday's "Piers Morgan Tonight."

When Morgan pointed out that 80 people a day die from gunshot wounds in America, Nugent argued that "78 of those 80 are let out of their cages by corrupt judges and prosecutors who know the recidivism is out of control, know that they'll commit the crimes again, and they let them walk through plea bargaining, early release, and programs. Kiss my ass. Where you have the most armed citizens in America, you have the lowest violent crime rate. Where you have the worst gun control, you have the highest crime rate."

Nugent, a strong proponent of the Second Amendment -- the right to keep and bear arms -- told Morgan, "More guns equals less crime. Period."

<more>

uber-moran

yup

[TheCowsCameHome]

1. Imagine having that blubbering idiot as a spokesman?

I can't.

[gejohnston]

4. quite frankly, it sucks.

but hey, you have Amy Fisher and the Million Mom March founder now in prison for attempted murder.

[ThatPoetGuy]

9. Are you repeating lies and disinformation without looking into them?

You said "the Million Mom March founder" is "now in prison for attempted murder." Is this true? Or is it something you heard from a source you should know better than to trust?

The founder of the Million Mom March is a woman named Donna Dees-Thomases. Are you talking about her? Or have you smeared this good and decent woman because an evil scumbag blogger deliberately tricked you?

A woman named Annette Stevens went to prison for drugs and firearms charges. She was the head of a small local chapter of the Million Mom March. But evil scumbag bloggers decided to spread lies and propaganda to smear the good guys, and these despicable monsters repeatedly referred to Stevens as "the founder of the Million Mom March."

They were lying.

And you believed it.

And you spread their lies and propaganda.

You spread lies and propaganda here.

You smeared Donna Dees-Thomases, the founder of the Million Mom March. You spread lies that the scum of the earth wanted you to spread.

Will you retract the propaganda you've spread?

Or will you continue to listen uncritically to those people who deliberately trick you into spreading lies?

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThatPoetGuy]

18. Yet you haven't retracted anything.

As far as I can tell, Barbara Graham was an "activist" who supported the Million Mom March. She tried to get vengeance by shooting a man she blamed for her son's murder. Bad business all around.

The article you posted makes no claim anywhere that Graham was a "founder." Again, Donna Dees-Thomases was the founder, and you said she's in prison for attempted murder. Which she isn't.

The facts of this case are: a young man was murdered with a gun. His mother supported the Million Mom March. She later tried to kill the man she blamed for her son's death.

You conflated a supporter of the group with the group's founder in a smear that completely coincides with a series of evil attacks on the group and its founder. You say it was a coincidence. I say that's how propaganda works -- you repeat what you were told and think you came up with it yourself.

But either way, your reply here shows that you have a sense of honor, or my statements wouldn't have stung. So please, come out and demonstrate your honor: just say it, say that the founder of the Million Mom March isn't in prison, she didn't try to kill anyone, you made a mistake, you regret that you spread misinformation.

[gejohnston]

24. Graham was described as co founder

Her son was a drug dealer with awful customer service. That is what most murders in the US are, drug related. The average bong owner contributes more to gun violence than all of than gun owners. 94 percent of the time killer and victim are both have criminal records.
Graham was released since it was ten years and was charged with a lot of things. Like I said I read the original article in the Post. Since I did not make anything up and until now I had no idea who Dees is, the Post also described Graham as a co founder. I never heard of Dees nor did I spread any disinformation about her. But I will say that to the best of my knowledge, Donna Dees-Thomases has never been convicted of any crime, served no time in prison, and any other smear this group you say I support spread.
I am guessing you are referring to the NRA, are you sure it was the NRA? Or some other individual or group? Either way, I am not a member of the NRA. Do not support the NRA. I do support real cures to violent crime without scapegoating target shooters, collectors, hunters etc.

[ThatPoetGuy]

41. None of the articles you posted have suggested Graham was a founder,

and all accounts, other than your confused memory, make it clear that Dees-Thomases is the founder. The only founder.

So yes, you said the founder is in prison for attempted murder. You smeared an innocent woman. You smeared the organization. You stated falsehoods as the truth, you tried to diminish and harm innocent people and groups, and you haven't demonstrated the basic human decency to own up to it.

Show me that you're better than this. You've claimed, in really vile posts, that anti-gun people are unethical, but you've been showing a serious, severe lack of ethics, from honesty to personal responsibility.

You made ugly, false statements about good people and good organizations, and you haven't even taken a paragraph to back off on the disgusting falsehoods.

[gejohnston]

43. Who did I smear?

My understanding was that Graham was was a co founder, I said nothing about Thomas. I pointed that out and smeared no one.

Please give examples of one of these vile posts? I said that anti gun organizations are intellectually dishonest and misguided. I gave specific examples. I stand by that. It had nothing to do with anti gun people in general.

Give me examples of ugly false statements. Prove that I was dishonest.

[ThatPoetGuy]

44. Was Graham the founder?

I haven't seen anything that supports that statement.

If she was a co-founder -- a claim no evidence seems to support -- then an honest person in your shoes would be certain to clarify the original statement, which smeared an innocent woman.

If she wasn't a co-founder -- which seems to be the case -- then you made a mistake in your first post, and every subsequent one has been lying.

You claimed the founder was in prison for attempted murder. Now you claim you meant somebody other than the founder, and, with no basis in any factual material you've been able to provide, you claim that this other person was the founder of the group.

[gejohnston]

47. red herring

It was my information that Graham was the founder or co-founder. As I remember reading the original Post article. I correctly pointed out in a later post and I was referring Graham and that I never heard of the other individual.

A lie is an intentional untruth. See my reply to the other anti on the subject.

[PavePusher]

25. Also here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x28948

[jpak]

16. retraction?

don't count on it

yup

[gejohnston]

38. How do I retract something I did not say?

about a person I never heard of.

[ThatPoetGuy]

42. But you said it.

You said the founder of the Million Mom March is in prison for attempted murder.

She isn't.

You were talking about someone else entirely, and you used that other person to smear the founder of the Million Mom March and the organization itself.

If you say you didn't smear her, you're lying. Because you did.

If I said, "The Mayor of Talligore is a convicted child molester," when in fact the mayor of Talligore is not a convicted child molester and I was thinking of someone who lived in Talligore, I'm honest enough to admit my mistake and retract it. Are you?

[gejohnston]

45. I did

Graham was released. It was my understanding that she was a co founder. If that is not the case, then I was in error. I did admit that mistake. The original source, the Washington Post, said that she was co founder. I retracted and pointed out that the person you and poet was referring to was not I was talking about. Since I said that Dees was not the person in my post, I call that retracting and correcting my record. Either way, Graham was still convicted of trying to kill and innocent person.
Deeper research since my post finds that Graham was a member of MMM listed as co-organizer. It is not my fault that the Post gave the wrong information.
How is this: Grahm was not co-founder but a co-organizer. Is that a distinction without a difference? Her exact convictions on the federal level were: Assault With Intent To Kill While Armed (another distinction without a difference), Aggravated Assault While Armed, Mayhem While Armed, three separate counts of Possession of a Firearm During the Commission of a Crime of Violence, and other related gun charges.
On the DC local laws: Carrying Pistol Without License, Unregistered Firearm, and Illegal Possession Of Ammunition.

One honest mistake and two distinctions without a difference.

If you took offence that I said that the average bong owner contributes more to gun violence than the NRA 99.9 percent of all gun owners combined, I stand by that. That is the bottom line based on DOJ statistics and every criminology book I have read.

[ThatPoetGuy]

46. Self-deleted. nt

[Drale]

2. To Nugent we don't need to 2nd Amendment because

Guns are a freedom of speech. "We're going to vote you out of office or suck on my machine gun" I think that right there proves it.

[gejohnston]

3. He is our Amy Fisher

OK so neither one of us likes Ted Nugent and his music sucks. He does have a couple of valid points.

78 of those 80 are let out of their cages by corrupt judges and prosecutors who know the recidivism is out of control, know that they'll commit the crimes again, and they let them walk through plea bargaining, early release, and programs.
I don't know if corrupt is the right word, more like putting speed and streamlining over justice. He is right.

Where you have the most armed citizens in America, you have the lowest violent crime rate. Where you have the worst gun control, you have the highest crime rate.
Taken only at face value, he is correct. I will take Wyoming over DC. Vermont is safer than Japan. Has nothing to do with guns, but he is correct.

[provis99]

10. Is Texas safer than Japan, too?

[gejohnston]

20. Not in homicide rates

Since 90 percent of violent crimes are not committed with guns, and this is the gungeon, I am going with just murder rates and not violent crime other than murder. Those may vary.

Japan has 1.5 per 100K people
Vermont is 1.1 latest stat I find 2009
Texas is 5.9

US is 5.6

If I may point out, Texas has stricter gun laws than Vermont. Vermont has never had any restrictions.

[Euromutt]

51. And the Japanese homicide rate is almost certainly grossly undercounted

The Japanese police are, bluntly, not very good at investigating crimes (which is why they routinely beat confessions out of suspects, because it's the only way of gathering information they're good at) and, in cases where there was no obvious suspect to beat up, they've been known to rule some rather suspicious deaths as suicides so as to be able to close the file. In one particularly egregious example, in 1980 a victim was ruled to have tied his own wrists and ankles before throwing himself off a dam into the reservoir below and drowning (the truth emerged when the murderer confessed in 2000, after the statute of limitations had elapsed).

In addition, domestic murder-suicides are counted as if all the deceased had committed suicide; if you murder your mother-in-law and two children, then cap yourself, the Japanese government counts that as four suicides. Such "forced suicides" (ikka-shinju) occur with startling frequency, possibly as many as one a day on average.

[-..__...]

17. I agree...

Nugent is an ass and is a poor spokesperson for2nd amendment rights... however, "Double Live Gonzo" remains as one of the most kick-ass live albums of all time. :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

[JohnnyRingo]

5. Most certainly, firearms advocates can find a more credible spokesman.

The fact that he refers to himself as "The Motor City Madman" excludes him from gun registration in most states because of the question on the form assuring one's sanity. If a person never saw one of his perfomances (I have), it could be passed off as a stage persona, but he does indeed have serious issues. Understand that while Vincent Furnier (Alice Cooper) is staunchly conservative, I find him a level headed first rate performer. Nugent is anything but.

Ted Nugent is a hate filled far right wing hack who's disfunctional ego prevents him from retaining competent musicians long enough to complete a tour. Ask the members of Great White.

[hlthe2b]

6. One would hope... but given the immense support for NRA around here--

even when they advance the most extreme positions, rhetoric and clearly do everything possible to attack Democrats--I wouldn't put money on that one...

[PavePusher]

8. "gun registration"?

What is the "gun registration" you speak of?

As far as a claimed stage title, that's a far cry from a medical diagnosis. While I find him sometimes more than a bit extreme, he seems well within the range of human-normal to me. 'Course I filter through personal experience living in or visiting some 25 countries on four continents, so my "range" may be broader than usual.

[JohnnyRingo]

11. In Ohio there's a question on the registration form that assures the applicant is of sound mind

There's also a question about whether the applicant is on drugs.
Sure, anyone can lie, but when part of your name is "Madman" it's ironic at best. I'm sure Willy Nelson could have a chuckle as he signed the form as well.

[PavePusher]

21. Ummm, Ohio doesn't have gun registration.

http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/a/gunlaws_oh.htm

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/ohio.pdf

:shrug:

[JohnnyRingo]

32. They did the last time I bought a gun.

No more than 10 years ago
(All mine are registered except one)

[pipoman]

35. Are you maybe confusing registration with an NICS background check?

[PavePusher]

37. D'oh! I should have thought of that....

JR, I bet you're thinking of the Form 4473, which is the NICS form, not a gun registration form.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473

[JohnnyRingo]

12. I've seem him three times since 1970

I know his act, and his disfunctionality on and off the stage has been well documented long before he came out rather recently as a 2nd ammendment advocate. Just because someone agrees with him on one issue doesn't make him "normal" by anyone's yardstick.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spin]

13. More guns equals less crime may be debatable as there are many factors ...

in the equation.

But the fact remains that we have seen firearm sales skyrocketing in recent years at the same time the violent crime rate was falling significantly.

Therefore it is fair to say that more guns does not equal more crime.

Firearms are inanimate objects which are used for both good and evil by humans.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

14. "Firearms are inanimate objects which are used for both good and evil by humans."

Like damn near every other tool known to man.

[Hoyt]

28. How do you know? Those guns bought today, will enable violent criminals down the road.

Besides, it appears to me that "more guns" don't mean "more gun owners." It just means the gun obsessed keep adding to their cache.

[spin]

36. How do you know those firearms "will enable violent criminals?" ...

There are 300 million firearms in our nation today but the violent crime rate has been falling since the mid 90s.


US Violent Crime Rate

But firearm sales have been increasing since 2005 and from 1991 to 1995 there was a similar increase in sales. Those firearms bought in the 90s should be fueling an increase in our crime rate 16 years later if you were right.



Since many new firearm owners are reluctant to tell anyone taking a survey that they own a gun, any data on who is buying firearms and how many new gun owners there are is highly unreliable.

When my daughter was working for the Census last summer she had many people refuse to tell her how many people lived in their homes. She felt fortunate that she didn't have to ask about gun ownership.

[gohuskies]

19. Ted Nugent is a moron

This guy is an absolute lunatic. Let's see Nugent get up in front of the families of all the innocents that have suffered at the hands these evil miscreants who killed indiscriminately at Columbine, Gabby Giffords, Virginia Tech, etc. He needs to be shunned but the crazy right-wing nutcases and his rethuglican buddies/lemmings fawn all over. I say lock him up in a tiger cage without his guns and bows & arrows and lets see how brave he really is. By the way, did he ever serve in the U.S. armed services? Oh that's right, he chicken hawked out.. What a disgusting creature.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

22. Columbine

Oh I remember. That's where Mark Manes, son of HCI activists, sold a TEC-DC9 to Harris and Klebold.

Mark is out of prison; going on 6 years now.

[PavePusher]

23. Nugent had nothing to do with those crimes and has nothing to apologize for on that issue.

He may be problematic, but you really don't need to make shit up to castigate him with, there's plenty of genuine material there.

[TheCowsCameHome]

26. .....but he's their moron.......

That's the difference.

[beevul]

27. I'd like to see gun control pushers...

I'd like to see gun control pushers first apologize for every gun death in the failed gun free zones, instead of laying the blame for their failed policies at the feet of law abiding gun owners.


I'm betting you aren't having any of that.

[Hoyt]

29. "Gun pushers" and gun promoters are the long term problem.

[beevul]

30. No. Its dishonest civil rights deniers that are the problem.

People that are for individuals having the freedome of choice = "gun pushers"? Who are they PUSHING to own guns that doesn't want to?

On the other hand, dishonest civil rights denying authoritarian gun control pushers want to FORCE thier views and favored BS on EVERYONE.

Whos the pusher again hoyt?

:rofl:

[Oneka]

33. Long term problem to whom?

The way i see it, the gun promoters, are only a problem to folks who wish to advance tyrany and authoritarianism, over protection of civil rights. So they're not my problem at all.

[RSillsbee]

39. did he ever serve in the U.S. armed services?

Did you?

[eqfan592]

31. He's no more of a "uber-moran" than...

...people who claim more guns = more crime...

[ileus]

34. Ted's a moonbat, but I like his view on the 2nd.

I can't stand to watch him or listen to him talk.

[jeepnstein]

40. Nugent is a whacko.

They trot him out for an interview every once in a while and he's good entertainment. He thrills the people who agree with him and he shocks the people who don't. He's hardly a sane spokesman for promoting my civil rights. His fortune has been made on being controversial and on that he delivers.

[Logical]

48. Nugent is a right wing tool. Do not use him as an example of a normal gun person! n-t

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

49. Nugent:

Using Ted to defend a pro-gun stance would be somewhat analogous using Bloomberg to defend an anti-gun stance.

However, Ted is a bit more......colorful. ;)

[Logical]

50. True.

[Euromutt]

52. Nugent's quite wrong, of course

The correct response to the "80 people a day die of GSWs" talking point would be, first, to point out that something in the order of 55% of those are intentional suicides, and that, given that American suicide rates is fairly unremarkable compared to other countries', we must conclude that the availability of firearms in American society strongly influences the selected means, but not the frequency, of suicide.

He gets close to having a valid point that the overwhelming majority (90+%) of murders are committed by people with prior histories of criminal and/or violent behavior, but blaming it on "corrupt judges and prosecutors" is facile. We already have an entire percent of our population incarcerated. How many more do we need to lock up before we finally realize "hold on, this doesn't seem to be working; maybe we need to try something else"?

And yeah, the "more guns equals less crime" is not a supportable position, John Lott's statistical one-upmanship notwithstanding. It should be fairly obvious that the parts of the U.S. with the most stringent gun control laws adopted those laws because they had the highest rates of violent crime, not vice-versa. However, gun control hasn't proven itself effective in stemming violent crime--for the obvious reason that crime is caused by other things than the availability of firearms--and conversely, increasing private citizens' ability to carry in public hasn't caused violent crime to rise, for the same reason.

But all that doesn't make Nugent an "uber-moran"; lots of people (claim to) believe things that are at least as unsupportable as what Nugent does. They just don't wear camouflage cowboy hats and oddly styled facial hair while they say them.