I've made my decision re: my "should I buy a gun" dilemma.

[liberalhistorian]

As most of you already know, I was robbed at gunpoint last week while sitting in my car in the parking lot of my workplace, which is out in the open, and in broad daylight at 7:30 p.m. I've discussed the gory details in previous threads, so I won't go into it all here.

A couple of days ago, I posted a thread saying that I was being advised by a lot of family and friends to buy a gun and undergo firearms training and practice, and that I was seriously considering it. I said that I was a Million Mom March member who has never cared for guns and never planned on owning any, much less undergoing any kind of training in their use. I was for the right of others to own guns, as long as they were law-abiding and had no felony record, etc., and had the necessary training and safety knowledge, but I believed the laws to be too lax and the enforcement too lenient. I believed, and still believe, in mandated safety features in guns and accountability for gun manufacturers.

But, as I've said before, there's nothing like a gun being jammed in your ribs and then your neck, and knowing that the psycho mugging you could shoot you without blinking an eye and has, at that moment, total power over your life, to change your perspective. There's nothing like experiencing that overwhelming feeling of powerlessness, helplessness, and pure, total terror to make you feel differently about things. He had the gun, and I had nothing, nothing at all.

I very much appreciate everyone's responses to my thread about whether or not I should buy a gun and get the necessary training and knowledge, both pro and con. There were a lot of good arguments on both sides. For right now, I have decided to check into firearms training and see if it's something that I can do and that I would be comfortable doing. I've never fired a gun, so I really have no idea of my capabilities in doing so. There are several ranges around here and my boss has offered to assist me (he's been trained and has gone to ranges for over thirty years now, so he knows what he's talking about). If I don't like it, or am uncomfortable, then I most likely will not get a gun and continue with the training. But I feel I need to at least take this first step. I don't ever again want to be in that position, and I refuse to be a victim again.

This is a major psychological shift for me, as everyone who knows my previous stance and postings on guns will understand. I may go all the way through the training and buy a gun, and I may not. But I feel I owe it to myself to at least try firearms training, as a first step. Thanks again to everyone who responded before, whether pro or con. You were all a great help, and I appreciate it!

[Cha]

1. Good for you! Whatever decision you make is the right one

for you! I think I would do the same thing! Because I will NOT be a victim! You are taking charge and you are going into Action!

Are you gettin' your money back yet? :-(

[liberalhistorian]

7. No, I haven't got shit back from the bank yet,

and I can't even get them to tell me what's going on and what's taking so damn long. My boss (an attorney) and I called today and the person reading my file couldn't even see at first that the card and PIN# had been stolen, for God's sake! Then, she said that they were in the process of getting the surveillance film from the ATM camera! WHO CARES, I thought, the police report was made at 8 p.m., I reported the card and PIN# stolen at 7:50 p.m., only twenty minutes after it happened, and the money was taken out of the bank's ATM at 12:30 in the morning!!!!!! Oh, but yeah, I forgot, they claim they have no record of my call to them right after it happened!!!!! And they're still unable to tell me how he was able to get out $700 in three transactions in less than three minutes when the daily limit is $500! If they don't give me my goddamn money back REAL soon, they're going to be looking at a nice civil suit that I will not hesitate to file!

[DavidMS]

14. I worry about the bank...

If it takes them over 30 days, a nice letter drafted by a lawyer may be able to put The Fear Of God(TM) into them.

Good luck with the money and banking side of the problem.

As for the self defence issues as opposed to immedately concidering a gun as the last line of defence, take a good class in unarmed combat so that you can better deal with any assailiant (from what I understand, simple, direct, and extreemely forcefull responces to legaly reconizable threats work best). Remember a gun is only a tool.

Such a lot of guns around town, and so few brains. You know, you're the second guy I've met today who seems to think a gat in the hand means the world by the tail. -- Philip Marlow in the Big Sleep (1946)

[onehandle]

2. I did not see the other thread...

So I don't know the circumstances.

Pulling a gun on someone holding a gun is insane. Often both people end up shot over a few bucks or possessions.

You survived. I'd move on.

[AZTOY]

4. Good for you

Welcome to the other side!!! Yes get the training first.

[Cthulu_2004]

17. Here's the thing.

When somebody has a gun on you, you're ENTIRELY at their mercy. Add to this the fact that the people who would do such a thing aren't the most socially responsible people. If there's a good chance that they will kill you (if for no other reason than to remove you as a witness) then firing back gives you at least SOME chance to survive.

It doesn't always work, but it works more often than it doesn't.

[Spentastic]

25. As close to telling untruths as it gets

"It doesn't always work, but it works more often than it doesn't."

Got any evidence for that? In fact got any evidence to support the rest of your opinion puff piece?

if "When somebody has a gun on you, you're ENTIRELY at their mercy."

is true then

"then firing back gives you at least SOME chance to survive.

It doesn't always work, but it works more often than it doesn't."

cannot logically stand.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. Caveat:

Concealed carry of a weapon assumes you can intelligently and EFFECTIVELY handle that weapon. One of the most important aspects of proper concealed firearms management is the ability to completely control that weapon in a stressful combat situation. Do you REALLY think that you can trust yourself to make the proper decisions, all within fractions of a second, come crunch time?

Be honest with yourself. Deadly honest. Completely and brutally honest. Because if you go around strapped, and crunch time comes(in your mind) and the wrong person ends up dead, an innocent person...

You will rue the day you ever considered a gun as a viable solution to what is bothering you now. Or worse.

[liberalhistorian]

8. I agree that proper training and effective handling of firearms

is absolutely necessary, which is why I'm beginning the training first before anything else. If I'm uncomfortable and don't think I can do it, then I'll stop the training and forget about getting a gun. I have no idea, at this point, what's going to happen, but at least I will be checking out all my options.

[DarkPhenyx]

5. Hang in there...

...get the training, and see what you may see. Even if you don't get a gun you'll still have learned something you didn't know before. That in and of itself will be a good thing. You'll have a new perspective on things. May not change your stance, but you will at least ahve a firmer basis for it.

I applaud you.

[BullDozer]

6. Bravo

For right now, I have decided to check into firearms training and see if it's something that I can do and that I would be comfortable doing

That's a great move on your part. You don't know what you want to do and yo are doing further research to help your decision process, everyone shoud approve of that.

[roughsatori]

9. That is a great idea

Take the training, give yourself time to learn, then decide for sure if you want to buy one. You never know you might find out you like it so much it will be a new hobby.

[Caution]

10. Kudos

I'm not a gun guy (I will never own a gun and have been at gunpoint on more than one occasion). I wish that more gun owners approached it intelligently and got training in the proper use and safety of guns prior to making the decision to buy. Remember as well that if you choose to purchase a gun, everyone in your household should also be trained in gun safety. If all gun owners were required to do this there would be a lot less accidents. I wish you luck in dealing with the bank and the trauma. Be smart. Also consider non-lethal alternatives. Mace, pepper spray or a taser. Having been on the recieving end of tear gas I can tell you that these chemical weapons are VERY effective. Think about how you would feel if you killed someone (even in self-defense). Any soldier who has done so will tell you it's not an easy thing to live with.

[Cthulu_2004]

18. well...

"Also consider non-lethal alternatives. Mace, pepper spray or a taser. Having been on the recieving end of tear gas I can tell you that these chemical weapons are VERY effective. Think about how you would feel if you killed someone (even in self-defense). Any soldier who has done so will tell you it's not an easy thing to live with."

Non-lethal responses can be effective if the perosn is unarmed, or has a weapon less than a gun. However, if you tear gas a guy at close reange with a gun, he WILL shoot you. Same deal with a taser, they take seconds to work, while the perpetrator is highly irritated and right next to you with a gun. In fact, while you're tasering him, the only way he can make you stop is to shoot you. I've been hit with various chemical agents of this variety (for training purposes), and it NEVER incapacitated me, even though I wasn't on drugs. If the person in question IS on drugs, the sprays are USELESS, and serve only to enrage the attacker.

Personally, I'd rather feel bad about shooting somebody than my family feel bad while burying me. Being alive with a guilty conscience is preferrable to being dead with a clean conscience, at least in my book.

[brothermak]

11. :-)

Regardless of whether you choose to get a firearm or not, I am pleased of how thoughtful you are about debating the benefits and consequences of gun ownership.

I am sorry for the horrible event that precipitated this personal debate. But I am happy you have the choice to own or not and that you are alive to exercise the choice if you wish.

Take care,
B-MAK

[iverglas]

12. well, I did wonder

It is very common on "crisis pregnancy" internet boards for women to present their situations -- either they're considering an abortion or they have had an abortion -- in terms that make it appear that they are ambivalent and looking for advice.

It is very common for two kinds of responses to be posted. The first group will exhort the woman not to kill her "unborn child", offer all sorts of "practical advice" for getting child support from the putative father, or dealing with recalcitrant parents, or getting scholarships, and so on, or, in the other case, direct her to "post-abortion" "counselling" agencies. The second group will urge the woman to consider her own wishes and needs, and to get whatever kind of assistance in the real world she might need, from someone concerned only about her welfare, so that she is comfortable with her own situation and feelings. Quite reasonably, the second group calls itself "pro-choice".

Oddly enough, the woman in question, who once appeared so ambivalent, very often simply ignores all of the advice that doesn't coincide with the pro-life agenda. (Just as often, she suddenly discovers some very strong and unambivalent feelings that cause her to intensely dislike the people suggesting that she do the work to explore her needs and feelings, and loudly praises the people telling her that she is a, or is a would-be, baby killer.)

Agendas mix so poorly with concern for others' well-being, don't they?

I stand by my sincere advice, offered at some personal risk (the ever-present risk of being misrepresented, just for starters). It seems to have been thought not worth considering, but I'll just summarize it briefly.

A victim of an intensely stressful, frightening experience, who is subsequently experiencing strong feelings of anxiety, fear, anger and powerlessness, needs to do the work that it will take to explore her feelings so that she can achieve the goal of feeling comfortable and secure. Discomfort and insecurity can be very real at the same time as they are not entirely rational. Any belief that comfort and security will be achieved without carefully examining the causes of the feelings of discomfort and insecurity, and working to take control of those feelings by learning new responses to the factors that produce them, is illusory.

Some people, in trying to avoid, rather than confront and try to change, those feelings, turn to mood-altering substances. Some withdraw from situations that trigger the feelings. Some live with the misery. Some latch onto quick fixes, which facilitate avoidance of the real problems. Behaviours that are inconsistent with one's values can provide a clue that there are reasons for the behaviours that need to be explored so that "equilibrium" can be restored, and the problems not be exacerbated or allowed to fester under a veneer of painted-on comfort and security.

http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-an06.html

http://www.headinjury.com/faqptsd.htm
(not all post-traumatic stress is a disorder; I do not diagnose)

http://www.nvc.org/gethelp/ptsd/

.

[liberalhistorian]

20. Please don't think I didn't appreciate and consider

your advice, which I believe was very thoughtful and sincere, especially considering your own experiences. I just feel that this is something I need to do for myself.

I've made the decision I feel is best for me, just like you did what was best for you. The important thing is that we both have the freedom to do that. What is best for you may not be best for me. And I'm only going to try the training first before anything else; there's a good chance I may not even like it and may be uncomfortable. In that case, I'll stop the training and forget about getting any kind of firearm.

[iverglas]

29. irrelevant platitudes

"I've made the decision I feel is best for me,
just like you did what was best for you. The important
thing is that we both have the freedom to do that."

Nonsense.

The important thing is that any, and all, of us do what is most likely to be beneficial to both ourselves and the rest of humanity, to the extent that this is possible.

Where there is a conflict, as of course there almost always is in anything we do, the very least that it is important for any and all of us to do is to refrain from elevating our self-interest above the well-being of others and acting in ways that benefit ourselves at others' foreseeably considerable expense.

It's not always possible for us to know what actually would be in the best interests of both ourselves and others, since we are none of us prescient, but the important thing then is to do one's best to determine what that is, and to do it. That's what a conscience is for. And the fact that not everyone has a fully functioning conscience is why other people sometimes find it necessary to make rules to tell people not how such decisions should be made, but what decisions they should make; we call these rules "laws". (Of course, there are also the rules that some people are fond of making up and calling "morality", very often to try to prevent others from acting on their own consciences, unfortunately.)

Having the freedom to do things that are not in the best interests of the other people who will be affected by what one does just doesn't strike me as "the important thing", I'm afraid I have to say.

I tend to prefer substance to form.

I don't suggest that anyone should not be "free" to say vile things, for instance. I just don't think that his/her freedom to say what s/he pleases has the first thing to do with whether what s/he says is good or decent or admirable. I don't decide whether I approve of someone else's words or actions on the basis of whether s/he is or ought to be "free" to say or do the things in question. That would be just plain silly. What is "the important thing", to me, in that instance, is that s/he have the decency not to say vile things, not whether s/he is free to say them.

Right now, where I am, we are all "free" to use our air conditioners. If we do, the electrical grid might well collapse again, causing hardship for many people in the short and long term. Is "the important thing" that we are all "free" to use our air conditioners? Hardly, I'd say. The important thing is that we all use our consciences and do the right thing, just as that is the important thing when it comes to any other decision we are "free" to make.

The existence of the freedom to make any particular decision simply is not a justification for the decision made.

.

[slackmaster]

13. Good decision!

As you get trained, try renting a variety of different weapons and see if one seems particularly suited to your body. With most shooters one handgun or another will have an optimum grip, and the sights will fall naturally on the target. Or maybe you'll decide you really dislike all firearms and end up not buying one. The experience of training and trying a few out in a secure environment while observing the rules of safe handling will expand your perspective.

[-..__...]

15. I should have asked you the first time around...

and the second time as well; is your state "shall issue" or "may issue"? If you're a MMM member
then I assume you know what the difference is and why or why not you'll get a CCW permit to begin with.

Check out some gun related forums. Ask if anyone has any good or bad experiences with a particular dealer in your area, or whom they'd recommend.

If you know anyone with firearms experience, have them come with you when you shop around.

Some gun shops have indoor ranges where you can try before you buy.

Don't buy an inexpensive handgun no matter how it 'fits your hand or how much it works into your budget. A quality handgun is going to cost at least $400.00.

Good luck

On edit: My bad. This should have been a response to the original post. Not slackmasters.

[Walter_Bowman]

16. Inexpensive handguns?

I'm not as sure.

http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/makarov.html

http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/handguns.html

[-..__...]

19. I've never shot a Mak before.

I've handled a couple in gun shops. I know they're supposed to be extremely reliable. I'd just
question it's stopping power... especially for a novice shooter who may or may not be able
to strike a vital area with the first shot. Personally, I'd suggest something in 9mm at the minimum.
Preferably something in .40 or better.

As far as inexpensive guns go; stay away from Bryco, Jennings, Raven, etc. They make fine paperweights.

[Cthulu_2004]

21. You can get good guns for under $400....

the Makarov and CZ-75 spring to mind. I'd stick with the 9x18 Makarov over the .380, though.

[ComplimentarySwine]

24. And don't forget

the Springfield Armory XD series. They've been around for quite a while as the HS2000, so they're not new and untested. Light weight, no manual safety, and quite reliable in my experience. There's a whole web forum dedicated to them at www.hs2000talk.com

[brothermak]

30. word

Right on with both choices.

[sandnsea]

22. I really have no business saying anything, but...

the gun training stuff is fine, getting a gun is fine, etc.

As a woman though, I'm thinking some sort of intensely physical self-defense training might be helpful too. Did you see that J-Lo movie where she kills her husband? That thing where women become willing to kill might be something to think about. For a bunch of reasons whenever I actually think of being in a dangerous situation and going 'for the kill', well, my mind doesn't go there. I'm not sure I'd really be able to kill someone. Then I'd just be a woman with a loaded gun who doesn't want to use it. Ack!

So I always thought if I got to the point you're at, I'd want some kind of mental toughness training. I hope this doesn't sound brutal, I don't mean for it to, just a thought because it seems like you really want to take some actions to feel some power over your life again.

Big hugs to ya!!!!

[RamboLiberal]

23. As a female gunowner with a CCW here's my 2 cents FWIW

First off liberalhistorian I'm glad you're safe. You did the right thing in the situation. For all the hassle you're going through with your ATM card it sure isn't worth your life. I'm glad this guy didn't make you drive around with him. That is one of the scariest situations I can envision as a female.

I hope Ohio does pass the CCW law. I live in PA which as you may know has an easy to obtain CCW. (The only thing I'd change about my state is it should require training).

My advice to you is:

1 - Find an instructor you are comfortable with male or female and take a few sessions if you can afford it.

2 - Go to a range where you can rent firearms or if your boss can get a few for you to try find what you are comfortable with. Don't get bamboozled by a woman should get a revolver or a small caliber, etc. But get a quality firearm. Especially important if you're going to get a semi-auto. I'd personally stay away from firearm that required me to manipulate safeties. My preference is Glock. I have what is known as a "baby Glock" the G26 which is 9mm as my carry, though I'm thinking of getting a bit more caliber for my next one, either in 40 or 45. I've shot probably 20,000 rounds through my 2 Glocks and have had almost no malfunctions. Check out the calibers as well, and if you can shoot it decently, go for the larger calibers. They have the greater chance of a one-stop shot. If a revolver I'd get a .357 since you can still shoot 38's for practice (and lower expense) but load the more potent 357 for defense. Remember most defense shootings occur at very close range - you probably won't miss with some training.

3 - Get to know the ammo. There's a difference between what you normally practice with and carry. Good hollow points for defense. And when you're comfortable shooting make sure you blow a box of hollow points downrange just to see how well you shoot them.

4 - See if you can find a class on when you can legally pull and use a gun.

5 - It's not a bad idea to also carry a weapon or two on your person and keychain. I advise Pepper Spray, you can even find test units with inert spray for practice. And make sure you get a new unit every year or two. I also carry a key chain baton for close strikes and a good lockback folding knife in my pocket.

6 - See if you can find a good physical defense class and I mean one with realistic fighting against padded opponents. This too will help you regain your confidence. And try to take refresher courses occassionally. Though it can take awhile in a martial art school to get proficient, if you're in to an exercise class I'd take a martial art course or kickboxing aerobics as a way to practice. There's also some good combat based martial arts being taught these day. One thing you learn in martial arts is awareness. Most of us walk around oblivious to what's happening around us and have lost our animal instincts that danger is lurking. Always pay attention to those instincts.

7 - If you do get a firearm, don't forget to practice. I'd advise at least once a month. But remember practicing against targets on the range is different than the positions you can find yourself on the street. One way I practice is I got in to a shooting sport that simulates defensive scenarios such as what happened to you wherein we can test our shooting skills against targets from a variety of positions. We actually have had scenarios firing from the driver's side of a stationary car. It costs me $10 to go through 4 - 5 scenarios a contest. PM me if you want info.

8 - And yes, if you decide to get a firearm, heck even in unarmed confrontations you do have to develop a mindset that you are willing to kill to protect yourself. Not everyone can do that.

And don't beat yourself up. What happened to you can happen to anyone. And even if you had a firearm, he had the drop on you. It may not have done you any good and it may have been inadvisable to draw. If I thought the guy just wanted my money I'd make no attempt to draw my gun. But if I thought he was going to shoot me anyway, then yes I'd go for my gun. And after reading too many crime stories I've decided that I would never let an assailant get me in a car with him. I'd rather have him kill me right there than what he may do to me later. That's my personal mindset on this.

You might want to look in to books by Massad Ayoob, Gila Hayes and Paxton Quigley (Gila and Paxton are writers on women and guns for self-defense), Massad is a police officer who has a lot of training course not only on shooting but legal ramifications and mindset.

Women and Guns is a good magazine as well though you may not agree with the politics. :evilgrin:

Hope I wasn't too long-winded and I hope this helps. My background is 26 years in the martial arts and about 5+ years as a competitive shooter who is still learning.

[solinvictus]

26. Great Advice!!!

:D There are a lot of great options out there for CCW at all budgets. I just purchased a Czech CZ-70 .32ACP for about $110, tax and all. I agree about the Baby Glock or even a good snub revolver with a recessed hammer. Also, another educational option is the Walther PPK air pistol.The action and ergonomics are just like the PPK, but at less than $75 to start. It would allow you to familiarize yourself with the basics and it can be fired in the back yard as it is a BB gun.
I would check out the site http://www.a-human-right.com/introduction.html. It covers the basics as well as establishes a practical need for firearms in the modern world. Good luck and stay safe!

[shatoga]

27. Any gun is useless if you don't have it with you! Recommend

"A bird in the hand beats two in the bush."


http://www.naaminis.com/magnum.html

Small enough to conceal in anything but a bikini.
Light enough to carry and not even notice it's there.

Stopping power equal to or better than a .38 or .380.

You'd have to step up to 9mm
(the US Military's choice)
or above
to top it's stoppingpower.

Since I got my NAA derringers,
I've put my .38s .380s and .32s in storage.
Also put stack barrel .357 in storage.

Five shots and a quick five more in a spare cylinder suits me just fine.

At least give it a try.

"A bird in the hand beats two in the bush."
A tiny gun, readily at hand, beats a hand cannon in the dash.


Violent encounters are most often won by the most agressive.

[shatoga]

28. Self Defense A Basic Human Right

http://www.a-human-right.com/introduction.html
>You might glean some insights or just be entertained.<