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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 11:04 PM
Original message
Plate of Shrimp
(anybody know Repo Man?)

Life somethimes throws strange coincidences at you. I recently started having a "discussion" with Mr. Benchley, who upon further checking would appear to be rabidly anti-gun. I JUST recieved this e-mail from a reletive, have no idea if it is factual but it DOES give one pause. And its a bit different from the usual cars kill more people than gun argument.


Something to think about



A. The number of physicians in the US is 700,000.
B. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year is 120,000.
C. Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171 (US Dept. of Health &Human Services).

Now consider this:

A. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000.
B. The number of accidental gun deaths per year is 1,500.
C. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner 0.0000188.

Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous
than gun owners.

FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR!

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets out of hand.

As a public health measure, I have withheld the statistics on lawyers for fear that the shock could cause people to seek medical attention.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. plate o' shrimp!
no f! it's important!

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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Wow, that simply proves that in the wrong hands
Edited on Mon May-03-04 11:25 PM by lunabush
stat is an incredibly dangerous thing. Hopefully someone with more patience will take this on. As a starter, consider that a doctor faces dozens of life and death situations a week, if not a day, depending on specialty. Next - consider that one is an apple - the other is a bowling ball - kinda hard to compare.

on edit, sorry to see a good Repo Man quote spoiled.

Good night. :hi:
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. giving pause

Yes, at least once a day, I like to pause and take a moment to reflect on how dim a large percentage of the human race, or at least certain populations, apparently is ... and how disingenuous another large group very obviously is.

And what a coincidence it is that the two groups come into contact so frequently.

.
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. I suppose you mean me?
Edited on Tue May-04-04 11:44 AM by Kali
Could you please clarify? After reading your vague post with no specifics I realized you could have meant ANYBODY.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. well ...

I would characterize anyone who actually thinks that this disingenuous screed draws a meaningful comparison between (a) physicians and surgeons and (b) firearms as notably dim.

I would characterize anyone who is perfectly aware of the disingenuousness of the screed in question but chooses to flood the ether with it anyway as ... well, notably disingenuous.

Whether you happen belong to either of those categories is up to you to determine, I suppose.

.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. or

Haha! It was a joke! Good joke. Excellent and humourous illustration of the dangers of bringing the dim and the disingenuous into close contact, and the hilarity that can result when it occurs.

Sorry, lunabush. This one's better than any of yours so far. ;)

.
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. There is no appreciable comparison.
Dishonest "statistics" like these do nothing to help the gun rights cause.
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. guess I'll try dim
Don't like it but...I think the comparison was between the deaths attributable to each. What would you do to change the comparison? Isn't this how insurance works? comparing death or accident rates?

If one is comparing risks for certain behaviors, or activities this isn't a legitemate comparison? How so?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. okey dokey
If one is comparing risks for certain behaviors, or activities this isn't a legitemate comparison?

G'head. Tell us exactly what is being "compared", 'k?

Here's an example of what's covered by those statistics.

Occasionally, people die from complications of tonsillectomies. I could have been one such person -- I had a post-op haemorrhage 2 weeks after having my tonsils out at the age of 21. I had just finished first-year law school, and in torts class I had actually studied cases of tonsillectomy deaths: haemorrhage, sponge left in throat by surgeon. I knew the risks, and that they were higher in adults than in children. I chose to have the surgery. I was "injured" as a result; others in similar situations die.

About 15 years later, a client of mine was shot dead by her sister's estranged husband when he climbed in a window of their home, looking for her sister, illegally carrying a handgun he had illegally acquired.

Now, exactly what "behaviour" or "activity" was my client engaging in at the time of her death, and how exactly do you suggest that we calculate the "risk" thereof? And then how shall we compare it to the risk of my tonsillectomy-seeking behaviour?

It seems to me that she was engaged in an extremely low-risk behaviour: sleeping inside her home with her family. Me, I engaged in a much higher-risk behaviour. She's dead. I'm alive.

Lemme see. I could also mention my cervical biopsy. Turned out I didn't have cancer, just one of the pre-cancerous conditions, and it was caught early enough. Had I died on the operating table (there had been a few deaths and brain injuries from improperly administered anaesthetic during routine ob/gyn surgeries in my region around that time), how shall we calculate the "risk" of my behaviour, and to what shall we attribute my death? What *was* my "behaviour"? I think we'd have to include my misspent youth in our calculation: sexual intercourse with multiple partners increases the risk of cervical cancer several fold. If I had died on the operating table with the direct cause being anaesthetist negligence, how would we account for the fact that I wouldn't have been there had it not been for my prior high-risk behaviour?

And then we compare that to my client again ... sleeping in her home. Damned low-risk behaviour, wouldn't ya think? But she's dead, by firearm. But hell, there wasn't much risk of that happening, so why should we worry?? Our insurance rates won't likely go up.

I think the comparison was between the deaths attributable to each. What would you do to change the comparison? Isn't this how insurance works? comparing death or accident rates?

Making public policy really just isn't an exercise in actuarial science, is it now? The insurance industry isn't much concerned with the benefits of the activities it insures; it looks only at risks. If public policy worked that way -- if we looked only at some hierarchy of risk and regulated activities accordingly -- well yes indeed, we'd probably have to outlaw roller skating and downhill skiing ... and a whole lot of medical procedures.

Now, was that what you were going to propose? Or were you just going to suggest that since the risk of my client being shot dead was so small as to be virtually impossible to calculate, we shouldn't bother thinking about what might be done to prevent such events?

.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
4. "...Something to Think About..."
The problem as I see it is that some pro-gunners stopped thinking years ago.
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enfield collector Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
5. do you ever feel as though your mind has begun to erode?
excellent movie, every line in it is a line.
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. one of my all time favorites!
only movie emilio estevez was any good in.

Find one in every car....you'll see.

Agree with above, EVERY line!
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Dolomite Donating Member (689 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
6. "I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either!"
"I shall not cause harm to any vehicle, nor to the personal contents thereof; nor through inaction let that vehicle, or the personal contents thereof come to harm."

Good Lord! Harry Dean Stanton is an American treasure.
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enfield collector Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. " Repo man spends his like getting into tense situations!" n/t
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
9. I'd rather ban irrelevant statistics.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. OK - Let's Start With John Lott/Mary Rosh
The source of most irrelevant statistics.

:-)
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Top two on my list
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. I've never seen John/Mary's stats discredited.
His online honesty, yes, but his studies, no. Any links or info about that?
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I Did a Google Search on "John Lott + wrong" ....
Edited on Tue May-04-04 01:59 PM by CO Liberal
...and found the following:

John Lott's Coding Errors

Lott tries to rewrite history, again.


Summary: Lott now claims that an incriminating file where he had been caught cooking his results was not meant to have been on his website and was only there because his webmaster screwed up. Unfortunately, his latest story is full of holes.

http://cgi.cse.unsw.edu.au/~lambert/cgi-bin/blog/guns/Lott/more_guns_less_crime/johnlottorg.html

* * * * *

More guns means more guns

Why John Lott is wrong

May 21, 2001

By Robert Ehrlich


John Lott’s 1998 book, More Guns, Less Crime contains many points with which I agree. For example, I believe that many criminals are leery of approaching potential victims who may be armed -- an idea at the core of his deterrence theory that guns help to prevent crime. I also believe that violent criminals are not typical citizens, and that the possession of a gun by a law abiding citizen is unlikely to turn him into a crazed killer. Lott also has a point when he speaks of the over-reporting by the media of gun violence by and against kids and the corresponding under-reporting of the defensive use of guns to prevent crime. As a gun owner myself, I was quite prepared to accept Lott’s thesis that the positive deterrent effect of guns exceeds their harmful effects on society, but as a scientist I have to be guided by what the data actually show, and Lott simply hasn’t made his case. Here’s why:

<SNIP>

Lott has correctly observed that by passing concealed carry laws in various states in various years, the U.S. has been in effect conducting an extremely interesting social experiment. That experiment, in principle, can give us an empirical answer to the relationship between easing restrictions on gun-carrying permits and crime. However, his one-sided analysis of the data inspires little confidence that we can count on him to tell us the true results of this experiment. From all indications it seems that the concealed carry laws probably have had almost no effect, one way or the other.

<MORE>

http://reason.com/hod/debate1.1.shtml

* * * * *

And the following well-documented article from Mother Jones:

Double Barreled Double Standards

For years, John Lott has provided a vital scholarly basis to the pro-gun movement. But now his research and his integrity are drawing heavy fire.

By Chris Mooney

October 13, 2003


If economist John R. Lott didn't exist, pro-gun advocates would have had to invent him. Probably the most visible scholarly figure in the U.S. gun debate, Lott's densely statistical work has given an immense boost to the arguments of the National Rifle Association. Lott's 1998 book More Guns, Less Crime -- which extolled the virtues of firearms for self-defense and has sold some 100,000 copies in two editions, quite an accomplishment for an academic book -- has served as a Bible for proponents of "right to carry" laws (also known as "shall issue" laws), which make it easier for citizens to carry concealed weapons. Were Lott to be discredited, an entire branch of pro-gun advocacy could lose its chief social scientific basis.

That may be happening. Earlier this year, Lott found himself facing serious criticism of his professional ethics. Pressed by critics, he failed to produce evidence of the existence of a survey -- which supposedly found that "98 percent of the time that people use guns defensively, they merely have to brandish a weapon to break off an attack" -- that he claimed to have conducted in the second edition of "More Guns, Less Crime". Lott then made matters even worse by posing as a former student, "Mary Rosh," and using the alias to attack his critics and defend his work online. When an Internet blogger exposed the ruse, the scientific community was outraged. Lott had created a "false identity for a scholar," charged Science editor-in-chief Donald Kennedy. "In most circles, this goes down as fraud."

Lott's recent baggage makes him an impeachable witness in the push to pass state-level right to carry laws, and raises questions about his broader body of work. Kennedy and others have even likened Lott to Michael Bellesiles, the Emory University historian who could not produce the data at the heart of his award-winning 2000 book "Arming America", which had seemed to undermine the notion that there was widespread gun ownership and usage in colonial America. But while Bellesiles resigned after a university panel challenged his credibility, thus far Lott has escaped a similar fate. An academic rolling stone, Lott has held research positions at the University of Chicago and Yale law schools, but currently works at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), a Washington think tank much smiled upon by the Bush administration. AEI will not say whether it will investigate its in-house guns expert; by e-mail, AEI president Christopher DeMuth declined to comment on the possibility.

Lott's defenders rightly point out that the missing survey -- which was completely lost in a computer crash, Lott says -- isn't central to the argument of "More Guns, Less Crime". But as Harvard economist David Hemenway wrote in a recent critique of Lott's latest book, "The Bias Against Guns", one must have "faith in Lott's integrity" before accepting his statistical results. That is because in the dauntingly complex subfield of econometrics, statistical manipulation is a constant concern. In a recent attempt to rescue his beleaguered "More Guns, Less Crime" hypothesis from criticism, Lott has been caught massaging his data to favor his argument. In subsequent exchanges with Mother Jones, he changed his story several times about a key data table that was misleadingly labeled -- and then surreptitiously amended -- on his website. Nevertheless, most pro-gun scholars and political conservatives have yet to call Lott to account.

<more>

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2003/10/we_590_01.html
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Good Fences Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
20. "But OTTO... What about our relationship....?"
Edited on Sun May-09-04 10:04 PM by Good Fences
Otto: (Looking at her briefly) "fuck that"

OR

"You don't want to look in the trunk."

OR

"Let's go get sushi. And not pay!"

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enfield collector Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. "I'm glad I tortured you!"
or
"only an asshole gets killed over a car"

every line is a line in that movie, truly Alex Cox's finest work.
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
21. Good thing those 300 murders in Detroit were intentional deaths
otherwise your results would have been skewed.
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