GUNS IN THE NEWS--May 26, 2004

[MrBenchley]

As CO Liberal sez:
Please try to adhere to the following voluntary guidelines, in order that we can have an orderly discussion of gun-related news topics:
1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current, stories should have been originally posted on the Internet within the previous 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board. On Mondays (since many people do not log in to DU over the weekend), stories can be posted from Saturday, Sunday, or Monday.
2 - Both pro-gun and anti-gun stories, editorials, and press releases are welcome in this thread, as long as they're current. Please do not post links to items from a few years back that support your position.
3 - Bear in mind that any links to extremely right-wing sites (such as Newsmax, CNS, or the Washington Times) or intentionally pro-gun or pro-control sites (such as the NRA or the Brady Campaign) are not considered reliable sources by many DU-ers. If at all possible, try to find a link for your story from a more mainstream source, such as a general-circulation newspaper or magazine site. If you choose to use a slanted site, be prepared for any negative feedback you may receive.
4 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People", or anything else that changes the meaning of the story.
5 - If it's not clear from the title where the story occurred, add the city, state, or country in parentheses after the title.
6 - The person adding a news story to the "GITN" thread is allowed (and encouraged) to comment on that story, indicating their position on the topic being discussed. These comments can appear either at the beginning or end of the post; if possible, place comments in a different typeface so readers can separate the comments from the story. Others who wish to comment on a posted story can do so by replying to that story; this allows other readers to follow the comments by scrolling through the subthread.
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8 - If you object to these guidelines, do everyone else a favor and go to another thread.

[MrBenchley]

1. Teen charged with having gun at school (NC)

"A student at Charlotte-Mecklenburg's largest high school was charged Tuesday with possessing a loaded gun in his book bag.
The 16-year-old Independence High freshman did not threaten anyone with the handgun, schools spokeswoman Jerri Haigler said. He was searched, and the .380-caliber semiautomatic pistol was found, after two students told an assistant principal that he had it.
"There was no incident, and nobody was harmed," Haigler said, commending the two students who reported the gun. "We don't want guns brought to schools at all, but if they are, we want students to feel comfortable telling us about them."
Tuesday's incident was the 13th involving a gun at a Charlotte-Mecklenburg school this year, Haigler said."

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/living/education/8760665.htm

Quick...what disgraceful far right wing lobbying group that has racist shithead Ted Nugent on its board of directors publishes a gun magazine for kids?

[Oaklander]

2. Interesting cartoon...

While I certainly don't think kids should be taking guns to school (Where the hell did he get the gun and where the hell are his parents?) I also don't believe the NRA has EVER endorsed allowing school kids to carry guns to school. I don't think you'll find too many people who will advocate allowing children to ever carry guns, except under the supervision of their parents or other adult (shooting instructor, for instance.)

[MrBenchley]

3. The NRA has sure as hell

tried to block all laws requiring safe storage.

[Oaklander]

5. As I said...

Where did he get the gun and where the hell were his parents? They should be liable for his actions since he is a minor. Also, if he got the gun from somewhere other than his home the adult who allowed him access to the gun should be hammered.

I'm pretty sure it is already illegal in all 50 states to knowingly allow a minor access to firearms and they could probably be charged with negligence if they failed to properly secure their guns.

[MrBenchley]

7. And as I said...

The NRA publishes a gun magazine for kids and has blocked all laws requiring safe storage. Furthermore, gun lobby has pushed the pusbrained idea that more guns in schools would stop school shootings.

Fuck 'em....they're nothing but a shadow Republican group.

[MrBenchley]

4. Driver Shot At Careens Into Field; Car Bursts Into Flames

"A driver shot several times in the head as he drove on a northwest Harris County road early Wednesday morning lost control of his vehicle and crashed into a field before the car burst into flames, officials told News2Houston.
Authorities found a convertible Ford Mustang on fire in a wooded area east of Walters Road near Briarchase around 2 a.m.
Investigators said the Mustang's driver had been shot twice in the head.
A passenger in the vehicle told officials that an argument broke out between the the shooting victim and people in another vehicle at a nearby gas station.
Officials said when the people in the Mustang left the gas station, two armed men in a dark-colored Chevrolet Tahoe began chasing them. "

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/kprc/20040526/lo_kprc/2221955

[Oaklander]

6. California Senate Votes to Require Thumbprint to Buy Bullets

The California Senate has passed a bill that would require ammunition buyers to provide a thumb print when the purchase is made. But a pro-Second Amendment group is condemning what it calls "an insidious invasion of privacy."

The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA) says that keeping records on ammunition sales has proven ineffective in fighting crime. "Requiring a thumbprint moves this idea into the realm of the ludicrous," said CCRKBA Executive Director Joe Waldron.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/26/92715.shtml

[MrBenchley]

8. Newsmax?

Uh-HUH.

[Oaklander]

10. Is the article incorrect?

Regardless of the source the activity reported in the article is correct. I'm just wondering how fingerprinting ammo buyers will help reduce crime? Will fingerprints from a crime scene be run against a database of all ammo purchasers?

[TX-RAT]

12. Oaklander - Welcome to DU-

Lets say they did run fingerprints from a crime scene against a data base of ammo purchasers. Would you have a problem with that?

[Oaklander]

15. Yes, on principle alone.

Requiring otherwise law abiding citizens to be fingerprinted and entered into a database whenever they conduct a perfectly legal transaction just smacks of Communism or the Nazis. It's as if the state has decided that anyone who purchases ammunition is merely a criminal waiting for an opportunity to shoot someone.

[LibLabUK]

22. Can you defend that position?

"Requiring otherwise law abiding citizens to be fingerprinted and entered into a database whenever they conduct a perfectly legal transaction just smacks of Communism or the Nazis. "

How so?

And even it were so, just because something was done by the Nazis and/or the Communists doesn't necessarily make it bad. Hitler was a vegetarian who loved dogs, doesn't make either of those things intrinsically evil.

You're going to have to go a lot further than "it smacks of Commies or Nazis" to make your argument.

[MrBenchley]

23. Seems to me a perfectly reasonable response

to gun violence...

[Oaklander]

25. What would you consider an unreasonable response?

Where do you draw the line?

[MrBenchley]

28. I draw the line about here....

but it curves around there...

And I still don't see anything unreasonable about this proposal....

[Oaklander]

I think it's an unreasonable invasion of my privacy.

The less the government sticks it's nose into my business the better off I am. More government is rarely, if ever, better government.

[MrBenchley]

33. Then don't buy ammo

"The less the government sticks it's nose into my business the better off I am. "
Ah, one of those.....

"More government is rarely, if ever, better government."
Kenny-boy Lay couldn't have said it better...and look how well deregulating his business worked out (snicker).

[Oaklander]

36. I won't...

At least not in California.

[LibLabUK]

38. Hmm...

"The less the government sticks it's nose into my business the better off I am. More government is rarely, if ever, better government."

This seems to be one right wing idea that's very popular over that side of the pond. Strange it would be used by a progressive liberal.

Doesn't really hold up when you actually look at what the government has done/does/will do for you, though does it?

[Oaklander]

46. Are progressive liberalism and less government mutually exclusive?

Cannot one be progressive and still wish for less governmental interference in my private life?

[LibLabUK]

72. Cannot one be progressive and still wish for less governmental interferenc

Your private life isn't being infringed upon. No one is telling you who you may or may not have sex with, pray with or associate with or proposing or suggesting that that be done.

[Hrumph]

157. And what -EXACTLY- has the government done for me lately? n/c

.

[Oaklander]

37. Do you believe private citizens should be allowed to own guns?

I'm sure you've been over this before but I'm new here and am not familiar with your position on any issues. I get the feeling that you are for strong regulation on the sale and possession of guns but are you for completely banning private gun ownership?

[MrBenchley]

40. Stick around and see....

I have to say, I've never come away from a discussion with a gun rights advocate thinking, "there's the sort of person I trust with firearms."

"I get the feeling that you are for strong regulation on the sale and possession of guns "
Yup.

[Oaklander]

48. If you don't trust me to carry a gun,...

What makes you so willing to trust a guy in a blue uniform? If you believe you don't need a gun because the police will always be there to protect you then why worry about me and my gun? Won't the police always be there to protect you from me?

[MrBenchley]

53. For one thing...

I don't have guys in blue uniforms barging around spouting rubbish from Newsmax.

[Oaklander]

59. I thought I cleared up the Newsmax issue.

I didn't realize, until AFTER I had posted the article, that the source was what it was. I agree that the source is tainted and have agreed to not use them as a source of information posted in this forum. That horse is dead, let it be.

Back to my original question: If you don't feel you need a gun for protection because the police will always be there to protect you then why fear me and my gun? The police will be there to protect you from me, right?

[MrBenchley]

67. Answer mine first...

If there IS a constitutional right to own popguns, why isn't the gun lobby suing to overturn those "20,000 plus gun laws" you were spouting off about? (For that matter, what happened when handfuls of gun nuts DID sue?)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=49341

[Oaklander]

73. There have been numerous cases...

Challenging the courts interpretations of the Second Amendment. Oddly, our Supreme Court seems to have an aversion to hearing Second Amendment cases. Perhaps they're too busy selecting our President to be bothered with the problems of the little people.

Just a random thought, but I find it rather ironic that Washington D.C., where handguns are all but forbidden, is one of the most dangerous cities in America. I guess it's ok though, the elites are protected by private security guards paid for by our tax dollars. Screw the little guy.

[MrBenchley]

75. And all of them concluded that the Second confers no individual right

The only one that came close was the far right wing Fifth, which overlooked its earlier rulings for the Emerson case....and THEY still found an excuse to take that guy's guns away.

"I find it rather ironic that Washington D.C., where handguns are all but forbidden, is one of the most dangerous cities in America."
I find it mind-numbingly stupid for anyone to pretend MORE guns is supposed to be an answer.

[Oaklander]

79. Well, LESS guns certainly hasn't proved very successful...

What do you propose they do to stem the gun violence in cities like D.C., New York, etc.?

[MrBenchley]

86. Gee, I propose

we close the gun show loophole, increase penalties and beef up enforcement against gun running, ban assault weapons, license gun owners and register guns, restrict ammo sales to licensed gun owners, and hold congressional hearings into the gun industry's marketing practices.

[Oaklander]

117. All good suggestions...

Couple of points though: By "assault weapons" do you mean extending the ban as it exists now, or changing it in some way? Licensing people to shoot guns should be like licensing people to drive cars. Ammo could then be sold only to people who present a valid shooters license but what about those who then reload their empties? The only thing you say that I have a real problem with is registering guns. Criminals will never register guns so what possible purpose could the government have for wanting to keep a record of what guns I own?

Now, how do you go about A)implementing your suggestion, and B) getting criminals to register their guns, get licenses, and buy their guns and ammo legally.

[MrBenchley]

126. Do you mean

you don't know what the "assault weapon ban" bills currently in Congress entail?

[Oaklander]

131. I know what the current AWB entails but...

It expires in roughly four months. Do you propose simply renewing the ban as it currently stands, or making some changes?

[MrBenchley]

133. Do you know what the bills in Congress are

and what they say?

[Oaklander]

150. Bills in Congress proposing what?

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.

[MrBenchley]

160. I'm sure I don't much care

whether you pretend to understand or not....but it says volumes that somebody who wants to "debate" an issue also purports to be utterly ignorant of the relevant bills in Congress.

[Oaklander]

189. Enlighten me then, so we may discuss like adults.

[MrBenchley]

191. Look it up....

You barge on here to discuss the issue and then you don't know the basics about the issue?

[Oaklander]

192. I'll have to check with my sources at NewsMax on this first.

N/T

[MrBenchley]

70. Incidentally, the difference between what you thought and what I think

is that you're someone who wandered onto Newsmax (without EVER having heard of it?) scrolled past all that other right wing idiocy to that one story (without noticing any of that feeble-minded stupidity) to rush to post it (with a URL that says "Newsmax" in it) on a board for Democrats and liberals....and I'm supposed to trust your judgement wandering around with a loaded weapon?

Uh-HUH.

[Oaklander]

78. Actually, I got the link to the Newsmax article from another site.

I didn't even know Newsmax existed before today.

[MrBenchley]

82. Uh-HUH....

"I didn't even know Newsmax existed"
Nothing like informed discussion....sure wish we had anything like one....

[iverglas]

84. heh

"Actually, I got the link to the Newsmax article from another site."

And may one ask what site that was?

[Oaklander]

96. And may one ask what site that was?

You sure can. It's this one.

[iverglas]

97. and oh look!

There's "More women taking up firearms", too!

A site for gun enthusiasts. Perhaps it also has a link that's just the thing you'd be looking for on that California story -- something, say, fair and balanced. After all, I'm sure that the users of the site like to know about all the various facets of the issues that concern them -- and I certainly wouldn't assume that all "gun enthusiasts" are opposed to effective ways of reducing the harms caused by the use of firearms.

.

[Oaklander]

101. I'm sure you noticed the site is resident in Canada...

Long known as a hotbed of neo-Conservatism and lax gun laws, eh?

[iverglas]

111. you're kidding, right?

... Canada... Long known as a hotbed of neo-Conservatism and lax gun laws, eh?

I'm actually at a loss to know what this is supposed to be getting at.

Would you like a selection of neo-conservative opinion from Canada?

I disclaim the source , but its material is useful for this purpose:
http://www.stephenharpersaid.ca/

http://www.lifesite.ca/
http://www.realwomenca.com/newsletter/2003_may_jun/article_5.html
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/portal.php

and of course there's always good old Garry Breitkreuz, MP
http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/
and his fan club
http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/homepage.html
(and his House of Commons colleagues in the Reform Alliance Conservative Party)

And not to forget the Fraser Institute itself
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/

You might also ask google for Ernst Zundel, The Western Front, Mike Harris, Ralph Klein ...

So, what was your point, anyhow?

Do the political tendencies of a society and legislation of a country have something to do with something that was in issue?

.

[Hrumph]

158. How would you know? n/c

.

[RoeBear]

186. Really!?!

Are you saying that there isn't a single pro-RKBA person that posts here that you would trust with a gun?

[CO Liberal]

41. Why Do You Assume That Those Who Advocate Gun Control...

...automatically favor the banning of guns?

By even asking this question, you are implying that this is the case.

[Oaklander]

43. I didn't assume. That's why I asked.

I wanted to be sure I understood MrBenchley's position. There is certainly a difference between the two positions.

[LibLabUK]

27. Exactly

Isn't that what the gun lobby always cries about "individual responsibility"?

If your dabs are linked back to the ammo you possess then surely that that is just reinforcing individual responsibility, by holding the individual responsible for what happens to that ammo.

Seems to me that these gun owners want the rest of society to take an awful lot on trust... And judging by your crime, death and injury stats that doesn't seem to be working too well.

[MrBenchley]

39. The real "scandal" of this bill...

...is that it might cause someone about to buy ammo for an illegal purpose to think twice or do without...and as you know, no solution to gun violence must ever be considered that might impinge on gun industry profits.

"Seems to me that these gun owners want the rest of society to take an awful lot on trust..."
They sure haven't earned it, either....no matter what they dredge out of Newsmax or similar sewers.

[Oaklander]

42. Do you really believe that laws deter criminals from breaking them?

If that were true we'd be the safest society on the planet. The fact is that the 20,000+ gun laws we have on the books already make any use of a gun to commit a crime illegal. The California proposal would simply be an added paperwork step for law abiding folks and a minimal deterent to criminals. Simple solution for criminals: Don't leave any fingerprints on your shell casings or don't leave any behind. It's that simple to defeat all of the bureaucratic red tape.

[LibLabUK]

47. Well...

"Simple solution for criminals: Don't leave any fingerprints on your shell casings or don't leave any behind. It's that simple to defeat all of the bureaucratic red tape."

Criminals can steal credit cards and forge your signature. So why bother having the signature strip on the back of the card, after all it's inconvenient to us lawabiding credit-card toters to have to sign our reciepts?

Simple.

It makes it just that little bit more difficult for the criminals and those with criminal intent.

[Oaklander]

49. You still seem to be confusing priviliges with rights.

My use of a credit card is a privilege granted by the credit card company. My ownership of a firearm is not, nor was it ever, a privilege granted by anyone.

[MrBenchley]

54. Again...

It's amazing that no solution to gun violence can ever be proposed which might inconvenience, even momentarily, the gun industry from selling guns to criminals and loonies.

[Hrumph]

163. Just curious, bench...

Can you name anyone who privately owns a gun and who you do NOT believe is a "criminal or loony?"

[MrBenchley]

166. Gee, now that you mention it...

I don't know that many people who do own a gun...and the few I do know support common-sense gun control...

I do know I've never met anyone parroting this brain-dead "gun rights" rhetoric in person who wasn't a useless piece of shit. And I've never encountered one in public who was in any way liberal...or intelligent...or mentally well balanced.

[Hrumph]

169. So you're admitting, then,

that you have already decide that everyone who has a different point of view from you is a brain-dead, inbread, moron.

That about right?

[MrBenchley]

170. I'll happily admit

I've never met anyone in person spouting this bogus "gun rights" horseshit who wasn't a bigoted brain-dead humhole. But then everything about that rancid creed is horseshit, from stem to stern.

And amusingly, I knew one once who got shot in the ass with his own gun....

But then look at the sort of politician doing so....

[Hrumph]

173. Just as I thought.

If i'd accused you of being that closed-minded it might have been construed as a personal attack and we all know how thin-skinned some folks can be around here. Thank you for owning up and setting the record straight yourself.

[MrBenchley]

175. Not at all...without distortion, denial and outright deception

the RKBAers here would have to remain mute as stones...as your posts show.

[Hrumph]

178. bench

No one on this board has refused more than you to give a straight answer to a straint question. Nor has ANYONE resorted to ad hominem attack more than yourself.

[MrBenchley]

181. Cry me a fucking river

Another "newbie"...anybody surprised? Me neither.

[Hrumph]

183. Nope, not a newbie.

But I'm not a post-whore troll, either.

[TX-RAT]

174. Got ya beat

Friend of mine not only shot his index finger off, he shot his buddy in the thigh at the same time.

[MrBenchley]

177. You know...

...Chuck Shepherd, the guy who does "News of the Weird" had to announce he would stop carrying stories about firearms safety instructors perforating themselves or their students, because they had become too common to be classified as weird.

[TX-RAT]

182. I believe that

Amazing how many people have been shot during training sessions. Most go unreported or no farther than the local paper.

[MrBenchley]

51. Too TOO funny

"It's that simple to defeat all of the bureaucratic red tape."
Uh-HUH.

By the way....since YOU claim there's a constitutional right to own a popgun: The National Rifle Association has NEVER sued to overturn any of those "20,000+ gun laws we have on the books already" on Second Amendment grounds, although if their propaganda (which you're repeating) were even remotely true, they could repeal them all...why is that, do you suppose?

[Oaklander]

56. Fuck the NRA!

Why do so many people think that anyone who owns a firearm is beholden to the NRA? I didn't vote for the NRA, the NRA doesn't represent me, they don't write our laws, and they sure as hell don't get to interpret the Constitution. They're just another private organization lobbying for what their members want. They have only as much influence as the Congress lets them have.

[MrBenchley]

61. Gee....

Maybe if they didn't all parrot it's rotten arguments, there'd be less of that.

"the NRA doesn't represent me, they don't write our laws"
The hell they don't...the GOP let them write their own disgraceful "immunity from liability" law, it let them dictate the disgraceful Tiahrt amendment, and it's letting them keep a spate of needed bills to close the gun show loophole, ban assault weapons, stop gun running, etc. locked up in committee.

And try and find "pro gun democrats" protesting that anywhere...the only gun owner bitching about the NRA that can ever be detected is that they're not shithouse-rat-crazy enough to suit.

[Oaklander]

65. Why doesn't the anti-gun movement have a lobby as effective at the NRA?

There have got to be enough people out there opposed to private ownership of guns that they could put together an effective lobby to counter the NRAs efforts. As I said earlier, the NRA has only as much power as Congress allows them. Why can't the opposition mount that kind of organization?

[MrBenchley]

69. Gee, because they don't sell anti-guns?

The gun lobby has blood money to throw around...

"There have got to be enough people out there opposed to private ownership of guns"
Is that you ASKING again?

[Oaklander]

76. Perhaps, just perhaps,...

It's because the anti-gun side is a minority. A very vocal minority, to be sure, but a minority nonetheless. If support for stricter gun laws/gun bans is so strong how come the "Million Mom March" drew only a few thousand to it's last rally? Could it be because some of the most vocal anti-gun folks have some poorly kept, dirty little gun secrets? (Diane Feinstein, Rossie O'Donnel, Sarah Brady)

[MrBenchley]

80. Maybe in your dreams....

--90% of Americans want to close the gun show loophole
--86% want increased penalties for gun trafficking
--79% want background checks for ALL firearm transactions
--77% want an assault weapons ban....
--67% want ALL firearms registered

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=29642

"how come the "Million Mom March" drew only a few thousand to it's last rally?"
Because it followed so closely on the heels of a much better publicized one?

"Could it be because some of the most vocal anti-gun folks have some poorly kept, dirty little gun secrets?"
Can't wait to see what right wing sewer you dredge THESE out of...

[Oaklander]

95. Actually, I agree with several of your points.

I would like to see the gunshow loophole closed, I'd like to see very harsh penalties for gun trafficking, and I don't have any problem with background checks for gun purchases. As for the AWB, most of us will admit it really wasn't effective and only banned cosmetic features of guns and not the guns themselves. Firearm registration is a non-starter for any politician who want's to keep his job.

"Can't wait to see what right wing sewer you dredge THESE out of..."

No sewer necessary:

1)Does Diane Feinstein, one of the most vocal anti-gun senators on the hill, possess a California concealed weapons permit for her .38 caliber handgun. (She does, and you can call her Senate office for confirmation of this.)

2)Did Sarah Brady buy a gun for her son? (Yep, you can call their office and confirm that one too. Do you need the number?)

3)Our buddy Rosie O'Donnell, who is on record as saying that anyone who owns a gun should go to prison, was recently on TV telling the host of the show she was on that it was none of our business if the bodyguards who protect her children carried guns while escorting her kids to their private school.

All of these facts are easily verifiable, if you chose to look into them. These are some of the most hypocritical anti-gun people I've heard. If you don't like guns, fine, but don't try to take away my guns while keeping yours. ("You" referring to the gun grabbers and not you specifically.)

[MrBenchley]

110. Gee, we've already seen this drivel dredged out of

right wing cesspools....

Guess this means that when the gun nuts call those folks "anti gun" it's just one more example of gun nuts lying their asses off, eh?

[Hrumph]

168. No,

it's just another example of lying politicians and the self-anointed elite that think they're better than everyone else and they should be defining the rulles everyone else has to live by - but they can ignore.

[MrBenchley]

171. It goes to show how fundamentally dishonest gun nuts are

and what a disgrace their rancid creed is.

"think they're better than everyone else"
Hell, take a look at the gunwankers' forums...there's pond scum better than the whole pusbrained lot over there...

[iverglas]

91. a minority ...

Like that minority of people who are paying the prices lining the pockets of the oil barons, and the minority of people paying the taxes that Wal-Mart is relieved of, and the minority of people on earth who opposed the US attack on Iraq, maybe?


Could it be because some of the most vocal anti-gun folks have some poorly kept, dirty little gun secrets? (Diane Feinstein, Rossie O'Donnel <sic>, Sarah Brady)

My, my, quelle newbie it is. Perhaps that Newsmax article was linked to at the Stentorian?

My favourite poorly kept dirty little secret is still the one about that guy who was the boss at Smith & Wesson (was that the one?).

Or maybe Ted Nugent. He's a pretty big poorly kept dirty secret, of course.

[MrBenchley]

93. But remember, he knows nothing, absolutely nothing

about Newsmax....

[Oaklander]

102. I thought the newsmax issue was a dead horse?

N/T

[MrBenchley]

108. Is THAT what you thought?

[Oaklander]

98. Three questions for you...

1) What is the Stentorian?

2)What about the boss at Smith & Wesson?

3) What is Ted Nugent's dirty secret? Yeah, he's an obnoxious loudmouthed blowhard but last time I checked that was neither secret nor a crime.

[MrBenchley]

114. Why not look it up?

Want some phone numbers to call? (snicker)

[Oaklander]

99. Three questions for you...

1) What is the Stentorian?

2)What about the boss at Smith & Wesson?

3) What is Ted Nugent's dirty secret? Yeah, he's an obnoxious loudmouthed blowhard but last time I checked that was neither secret nor a crime.

Also, what do oil barons, Wal-Mart, and opposition to the U.S. invasion of Iraq have to do with the topic at hand? (Ok, that was four questions, but who's counting?) (Damn, that makes five questions, I'd better quit while I'm ahead.)

[CO Liberal]

71. Wow...Dou You Kiss You Gun With That Mouth?

:-)

[MrBenchley]

77. LOL!!

[Oaklander]

81. Not all gun owners are NRA members.

Why is it so difficult to grasp the fact that gun ownership does not automatically equate to being a lock-step NRA member?

[CO Liberal]

88. And Not All Who Favor Gun Control Favor Gun Confiscation

Why is it so difficult for so many pro-gunners to grasp THAT fact?

[Oaklander]

103. Fair enough.

I will admit that not all people who favor gun control want to confiscate my guns. So, where is the common ground? What is the goal of the gun control lobby?

[CO Liberal]

151. I Think For Starters....

...you might want to consider the following from the Democratic party's 2000 Platform - underlining emphasis mine (http://www.democrats.org/about/2000platform.html):

Strong and Sensible Gun Laws. A shocking level of gun violence on our streets and in our schools has shown America the need to keep guns away from those who shouldn't have them - in ways that respect the rights of hunters, sportsmen, and legitimate gun owners. The Columbine tragedy struck America's heart, but in its wake Republicans have done nothing to keep guns away from those who should not have them.

Democrats believe that we should fight gun crime on all fronts - with stronger laws and stronger enforcement. That's why Democrats fought and passed the Brady Law and the Assault Weapons Ban. We increased federal, state, and local gun crime prosecution by 22 percent since 1992. Now gun crime is down by 35 percent.

Now we must do even more. We need mandatory child safety locks, to protect our children. We should require a photo license I.D., a full background check, and a gun safety test to buy a new handgun in America. We support more federal gun prosecutors, ATF agents and inspectors, and giving states and communities another 10,000 prosecutors to fight gun crime.

[MrBenchley]

89. And yet they parrot that dreary NRA crap all day long

"gun ownership does not automatically equate to being a lock-step NRA member?"
And yet the only speck of criticism of this disgraceful bunch of shitheels that can be found from gun owners are the really crazy ones who think the NRA is not extremist enough....

[CO Liberal]

92. And Why Would They Parrot It.....

...if they weren't fed a steady stream of that propaganda by such low-lifes as Wayne LaPierre and Ted Nugent????

And then they come here and deny their membership in the Nuts Ruining America.....

[MrBenchley]

94. Exactly so....

And just look at all the "gun owning democrats" all over the place outraged that such scummy folks are in charge of the largest gun owners' group around....oh that's right, there aren't any.

[Oaklander]

104. Why would I either praise or critize the NRA?

I'm not a member and they don't represent my views so I have no time for them. Either way.

[MrBenchley]

115. Uh-HUH...

[CO Liberal]

154. And Why...

...would you post crap from NewsMax and the Virginia Institute of Right-Wing Assholes, and fein ignorance about thir agenda????

:shrug:

[CO Liberal]

24. Here In Colorado...

...I was entered into a database and fingerprinted when I got my drivers license. Are you saying the State of Colorado has decided that anyone who wants to drive a car is merely a criminal waiting for an opportunity to run over someone??

:shrug:

[Oaklander]

26. There is a fundamental difference involved here.

A drivers license is a privilege granted by the state. The right to possess a firearm is a Constitutionally guaranteed right. I equate requiring people to be fingerprinted and entered into a database in order to purchase a gun or ammunition to requiring the same of people who wish to buy a pen or paper so they can write a newspaper article.

[CO Liberal]

29. Don't Give Me That Crap!

Pro-gunners have been making that same lame argument over and over again on this board ad nauseum.

The question I have is WHY do so many pro-gunners seem to have such an abiding distrust for the authorities???

:shrug:

[MrBenchley]

31. Maybe pro-gunners distrust authorities so

because they know first hand what lying scummy pieces of shit their authorities ARE....

[Oaklander]

35. Finally, something we agree on!

I wouldn't trust Bush, Cheney, or Ashkroft any further than I could toss 'em.

[MrBenchley]

55. Well, they're pro-gun all the way...

and the scum of the earth.

[Hrumph]

176. From your point of view, isn't that redundant? n/c

.

[MrBenchley]

179. From anybody's point of view....

The Second Amendment Caucus are some of the ugliest specimens in the Congress....about the only folks who rate them highly are pieces of shit like the AFA.

[Hrumph]

180. What does physical appearance have to do with truth?

And why must you always resort to such lame tactics?

[MrBenchley]

187. Ask John Keats....

As for lame...I'd say the lamest tactic yet is someone pretending that the "ugliness" of the scumbags in the Second Amendment Caucus refers only to their physical appearance and not their twisted far rigth wing agendas...

But since you brought it up...let's remind the board what the leaders of this bunch of fuckwits are like...

Marilyn Musgrave
"2003   On the votes that the National Abortion Reproductive Rights Action League considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
1995-2003   On the votes that the Planned Parenthood (House) considered to be the most important, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Americans for the Arts considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Americans United for the Separation of Church and State considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 20 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the National Education Association considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 8 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the League of Conservation Voters considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 5 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Sierra Club considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 13 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the American Association of University Women considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the National Committee for an Effective Congress considered to be the most important in the first quarter of 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Friends Comm. on Nat'l Leg. considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Public Citizen's Congress Watch considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 33 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Americans for Democratic Action considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 15 percent of the time.
2003   According to the National Journal - Liberal on Social Policy's calculations, in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted more liberal on social policy issues than 5 percent of the Representatives."

On the other hand, some people loved her...and what a bunch THEY were....

"2003   On the votes that the Family Research Council considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Christian Coalition considered to be the most important in 2003 , Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Eagle Forum considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Musgrave voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time."

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=BS020598

How about the other asshat, Virgil Goode?
"2003   On the votes that the Americans for the Arts considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Americans United for the Separation of Church and State considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2001-2002   On the votes that the American Civil Liberties Union considered to be the most important in 2001-2002 , Representative Goode voted their preferred position 7 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 15 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the National Education Association considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 17 percent of the time.
2002   On the votes that the National Education Association considered to be the most important in 2002, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the League of Conservation Voters considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 20 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Sierra Club considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 13 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the American Association of University Women considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the National Committee for an Effective Congress considered to be the most important in the first quarter of 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the U.S. Public Interest Research Group considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 10 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the State PIRGs Working Together considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 10 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Friends Comm. on Nat'l Leg. considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Public Citizen's Congress Watch considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 17 percent of the time.
2003   According to the National Journal - Liberal on Social Policy's calculations, in 2003, Representative Goode voted more liberal on social policy issues than 0 percent of the Representatives.
2003   On the votes that the Alliance for Retired Americans considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 10 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Bread for the World considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 0 percent of the time."

But right wing scumbags love this yobbo too...

"2003   On the votes that the Christian Coalition considered to be the most important in 2003 , Representative Goode voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Eagle Forum considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 96 percent of the time.
2003   On the votes that the Family Research Council considered to be the most important in 2003, Representative Goode voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time. "

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=BC036722

Here's some other members...
John Hostettler-- the imbecile who got caught trying to sneak his gun onto a plane the other day
Tom Tancredo--the anti-immigrant crusader who hired illegal immigrants to remodel his home for cut-throat pay
Sue Myrick--openly racist on the floor of the House.
J.D. Hayworth--MSNBC's favorite Republican gas bag
Roscoe Bartlett--perhaps the stupidest person in the House
Yeah, gun nuts have hitched their wagon to some real stars there...

[Oaklander]

32. What has the government done to earn my trust?

I believe the government would be perfectly happy if every gun in America simply vanished tomorrow. Look at how much trouble they're having in Iraq with a small number of well armed citizens.

[LibLabUK]

119. Look at how much trouble they're having in Iraq with a small number of wel

Pull the other one it's got bells on.

[Oaklander]

123. Pull the other one it's got bells on.

I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean. Please clarify.

[LibLabUK]

141. Please clarify

Well you've pulled one leg, so I'm recommending you try the other as I have attached bells to it.

[Oaklander]

147. I haven't pulled any legs.

How am I pulling your leg?

[MrBenchley]

30. Nope...

"The right to possess a firearm is a Constitutionally guaranteed right."
Not the way the courts and the ACLU see it...

[Oaklander]

34. Maybe you've read this, maybe you haven't...

I believe it's worth a look, regardless of your position on guns. It's called A Primer on the Constitutional Right to Keep and Bear Arms

[CO Liberal]

44. Before I Read Anything, I Check Its Source

Your link goes to the Virginia Institute for Public Policy. When you go to their "Links" page, you find the following:

* * * * *

The following organizations are committed to protecting the life, liberty, and property of the citizens of Virginia.

Americans for Tax Reform

Arlington County Taxpayers Association

Center for Individual Rights

Citizens Action Coalition, Inc.

Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute

Club for Growth

College Republicans @ Washington & Lee

Council of Virginia Taxpayers

Defenders of Property Rights

Fairfax County Taxpayers Alliance

FauquierNews.Com

The Heritage Foundation

Home School Legal Defense Association

Institute for Justice

Lexington Institute

Living History Associates, Ltd.

Loudoun Taxpayers Coalition

National Rifle Association

National Taxpayers Union

NorthernVirginiaGOP.com

Prince William Taxpayers Alliance

Republican Party of Virginia

Taxpayers for Accountable Government

Tidewater Libertarian Party

Virginia Association of Independent Schools

Virginia Association of Scholars

Virginia Beach Taxpayer Alliance

Virginia Club for Growth

Virginia Committee of Correspondence, Inc.

Virginia News Source

Virginia Professional Educators

Virginia Property Rights Coalition

Virginians Over-Taxed on Residences

Waldo & Lyle

* * * * *

Any organization that provides TWO Republican Party links and links to such worthless organizations as the Heritage Foundation and the Nuts Ruining America is hardly one that can be recommended by a progressive Democrat.

I'll pass on your recommendation....

[MrBenchley]

45. Another right wing sewer....

Anti-environment, anti-tax, anti-regulation horseshit.

A sampling of the Virginia Institute's OTHER "scholarship": Antitrust regulation is a very expensive government cure for which there is no known disease. ...The PC police understand very well that those who control language and history also control people’s minds and the future. ...By failing to eliminate Virginia’s Death Tax, the General Assembly is apparently trying to reduce tax revenues by forcing wealth and enterprise from the state. Go figure! ...Increasingly, parents are questioning whether it is appropriate for public schools to propagandize children with environmental doomsday assessments that cannot be supported by fact or knowledge.


Doesn't anybody in the RKBA crowd ever read anything sane people read?

[CO Liberal]

50. If They Read What Sane People Read....

...they would probably change their position.

:-)

[MrBenchley]

57. Very true...

But instead they dredge in sewers like Newsmax and right wing think tanks...

[Oaklander]

52. Apparently sane people read this kind of thing all the time.

I posted the link to support my position on what I believe is the Constitutionally guaranteed right of private citizens to keep and bear arms. I'm not trying to force you to change your mind, I'm only trying to explain my position.

[MrBenchley]

58. Sez you...

You'll notice their "scholars" are either from Ed Meese's diploma mill at George Mason or the home schoolers loonybin, Patrick Henry U.

[Oaklander]

60. "home schoolers loonybin"?

Are you implying that you believe that those who homeschool are somehow crazy or insane?

[MrBenchley]

62. Go to the search function and look up Patrick Henry U

it's been discussed to death in other forums...

[CO Liberal]

63. Going By The Ones Out Here In Colorado......

...I'd say YES!!!!

[Oaklander]

64. Well, I suppose that's a topic for another fourm.

n/t

[TX-RAT]

66. Why the distrust of law enforcement?

What have they done to you to deserve this.

[Oaklander]

83. Ever hear of Waco, or Ruby Ridge, Rodney King?

Too many cops are on power trips because of the badge.

[TX-RAT]

87. I believe i asked

What have they done to you.

[Oaklander]

109. They haven't done anything to me...yet.

Does that mean I should run out and hug a cop? I think perhaps not.

[MrBenchley]

74. A large chumk of the home schoolers

are the Taliban wing of the Republican party, trying to get away from blacks and Jews in the public schools.

And of course, we know at least some of them are pro-gun...

"Authorities hope a relative and former family priest can help end a standoff with six armed children barricaded in their dilapidated home and protected by a pack of dogs.
The standoff was set up three days ago when police lured the children's mother, JoAnn McGuckin, from the home with an offer of grocery money, and charged her with child neglect, police said.
The children, ages 8 to 16, locked themselves inside when police returned later to arrange food and housing. Police say a 15-year-old yelled "get the guns out" and the children turned their 27 dogs loose on deputies.
The family had been living on soup made from lake water and lily pads since the father, Michael, died three weeks ago, police said."

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/dogs_standoff010531.html

[Oaklander]

85. I choose to look at homeschoolers as concerned parents

Looking out for what they believe is in the best interest of their children. Who the hell am I to tell them how they should educate their children?

[MrBenchley]

90. And you chose to pretend the right wing think tank

was something besides a sewer...

[iverglas]

100. nobody, obviously

Who the hell am I to tell them how they should educate their children?

Only people who give a shit are likely to do that.

What century did you say you were living in?

[Oaklander]

105. "Only people who give a shit are likely to do that."

Only people who give a shit about what? I don't care how you raise your children or how you chose to educate them. It's really none of my business. If you wish to teach your children that the world is flat, God doesn't exist, and man never landed on the moon it's entirely up to you, isn't it?

[iverglas]

112. res ipsa loquitur

Well ... res ipsa loquitur.

[LibLabUK]

129. tetigisti acu. me nihil scripsit

[iverglas]

142. well how dulce et decorum of you ;)

How bout that Millwall save, eh?

Okay, I got kind of bored not long after that, and wandered off ... but I was impressed with that one.

[LibLabUK]

143. Umm... I'm loathe to admit it but..

I didn't watch the game :(

My younger brother was presenting his thesis last week and the fact that it was the cup final on Saturday slipped my mind.

[iverglas]

145. no Corrie, no East Enders ...

... no FA Cup ... I suppose you don't know the words to God Save the Queen, either.

Confound her enemies ...

But of course not 1 in 100 USAmericans would know where the tune to "My Country 'Tis of Thee" came from. ;)

[LibLabUK]

152. ... no FA Cup ...

I know, I know. What kind of Brit am I?


"Confound their knavish tricks,
Confuse their politics,"

I just think the word "knavish" should be used more in everyday conversation.

[iverglas]

155. whoops

Mild rebuke taken. Scatter her enemies.

But I'll beat you on a rendition of The Maple Leaf Forever.

In days of yore From Britain's shore
Wolfe the dauntless hero came
And planted firm Britannia's flag
On Canada's fair domain. ...

They don't sing it in schools in this millenium. Back when we did, it was kind of pointless ... I was convinced that I was singing about Oaf the dauntless hero. One of those Vikings who got here first, maybe.

... The thistle, shamrock, rose entwine
The maple leaf forever.

Fortunately, I doubt many people ever heard it in Quebec.

[LibLabUK]

162. Hehe..

Not lucky enough to have heard of The Maple Leaf Forever.

However, I will admit to thinking for the longest time that you guys were singing "Oh Canada, we stand on God for you". I was confused, but figured it made sense to you guys.

Fortunately I found out the truth before I visited Toronto in 2002, otherwise it would have been rather embarrassing (much like finding out you are expected to tip barstaff was).

[iverglas]

165. there ya go

I was confused, but figured it made sense to you guys.

The very picture of tolerance. ;)

(much like finding out you are expected to tip barstaff was)

Well, I never got the hang of it on your side, either. The rule was supposed to be no tipping, but I got the impression that the people who might have got tips weren't very impressed by the rule. (Maybe it was just the assumption that I was from "America" and so would tip anyway.) So I tipped.

From watching Corrie and EE and various other stuff (I probably watch nearly as much Brit as USA'n teevee, and Australian when I can get it) one might expect that bar staff are permanently pissed out of their heads. When the tips consist of "and have one yourself", it's a wonder there's anyone left behind the bar and you can ever get into a washroom.

Speaking of which, I once asked a fast food worker in Ted Turner's Omni complex in Atlanta where I'd find a washroom, having neglected to use the undoubtedly lovely private one in the Cdn consultate before I left and being about to embark on a very long drive. He gazed blankly at me. "A washroom?" Um, yes. "You mean, a place to wash your clothes?" "Well, no" - with increasing urgency - "a place to pee." What the hell are you supposed to call it when in Georgia?? But speaking of places to pee, about the worst I've ever been in was at King's Cross station, I think was the one. Yech. Heh; from some internet fic site:

The fifth stall in the men's washroom at King's Cross
station had had a "Closed For Repairs" sign on the door
since 1973.

Ah, a little more quick googling -- was this at least in part a privatization effect? (This was 1984.) The NHS hospital in Stoke-Newington was only a fraction above the railway washroom on the yech scale at the time.


But I'll tell ya, those French tourists ...

[LibLabUK]

185. Well...

-Tipping
Maybe it has something to do with the ridiculously high prices of drinks in our pubs.

Or maybe it's to do with the high price of drinks.. or the fact that pouring a pint really doesn't require that much skill... I dunno.

I always feel uncomfortable tipping. I tip my barber, anyone that serves me in a restaurant and black cab drivers but no one else. I'm never really know how much to tip, how much is insulting and how much is overgenerous.

-Loos
As for the King's X loos... well British Rail was chronically underfunded under the Tories... their way of preparing the ground for privatisation. Now ofcourse, we subsidise the privatised railways with more cash than we did when they were publicly owned :/

And NHS hospital toilets were in a dire state after they privatised the cleaning contracts (Thatcher's work again). Something that thankfully (I spend my professional life and quite a bit of my personal life in hospital) has improved in great leaps since Mr Blair took office.

[iverglas]

188. ooo -- not the loos

at the Stoke-Newington hospital. The waiting room (blood on the floor, blood on the reception desk ...), and the examining room, if you lived long enough to see the inside of one (blood on the examining table).

And the fact that when an older woman with a head injury came in (my mum, who tripped on the cobblestones on the way into the Indian restaurant my solicitor friend was taking us to), there was not a cube of ice to be had in the joint, nor change for a note, and I had to cadge coins offered by the obviously not well-off other folks waiting with us (why else would they have been there, when my friend's partner was in a spiffy new hospital in the West End with room service and sunshine?) to buy cold cans of pop from the drinks machine to try to unswell the goose egg on her forehead.

When the resident we finally saw advised going home and putting ice on the injury, I fixed my gaze on the nurse who had had no ice, and said "ice, what a novel idea". "Well," he said, "that's what you get when you have a single-tier health care system."

!!! The whole bloody point was that there was a two-tier health care system, as far as I could see! And we happened to have wandered into the bottom tier. And I recount that tale every time someone starts singing the praises of introducing a parallel health care for profit system here.

I'm glad (for you, and for all of us battling against privatization experiments everywhere) to hear that the NHS is feeling better. ;)

And, gasp, you work in that socialized system and *like* it?

.

[LibLabUK]

121. Who the hell am I to tell them how they should educate their children?

You're right, who the hell are you to tell them that?

Fortunately the government employs educationalists and trained teachers... who ARE eminently qualified to tell parents how they should educate their children.

[Oaklander]

124. What gives the government the right to decide?

Only I have the right to decide what my children will and will not be taught. Not you, not some teacher, and sure as hell not some government flunky sitting in an office in D.C.

[LibLabUK]

134. "What gives the government the right to decide?"

"Inconcievable" err I mean "Rights". You use that word, but I do not think you know what it means!

1. Elections.
2. We pay for government to make just those decisions.
3. We pay for the government to employ experts.
4. We pay for the government to conduct research using combined resources far outweighing any available to a single individual.

[Oaklander]

140. Again, I ask: What gives the government the right?

Answer: Not a damn thing! They don't have that right. All of your points mean exactly shite. My wife and I, and ONLY my wife and I, have the right, AND the responsibility, to decide how to educate my children. Not you, not some self-proclaimed expert, and most certainly not some fucking government pud puller in D.C. The government can dictate what is taught in public schools but that in no way obligates me to subject my children to what the government is teaching, nor the environment in which it teaches. What you or the government thinks of how I choose to educate my children is completely irrelevant.

[iverglas]

149. let me try

Governments don't have rights. I mean, unless we're talking about something like the right to sue under a contract, y'know, that kind of thing.

Now, after that little outburst, maybe you'd like to provide a brief statement of whatever "liberal"/Democratic ideas it may be that you do agree with. Or of why you've decided to grace us with your presence.

Just curious as always.

[Oaklander]

153. Well, since you seem to have all the answers,

Why don't you toss out a couple of ideas and I'll let you know where I stand on them. Then you can decide for yourself where I fit in to your definition of Democratic.

[LibLabUK]

120. Oh boy*

And this guy was trying to kid us into believing he was a progressive liberal.

*is that an authorised usage of the word 'boy'?

[MrBenchley]

130. Funny how our "pro gun democrats"

seem to be all "pro gun" but never a speck of "democrat"....

[Oaklander]

135. Being pro-gun and being a democrat are NOT mutually exclusive.

One can support the principles of the Democratic party and still support the right to keep and bear arms. It's time we took away the "anti-rights gun grabber" hammer from the right.

[MrBenchley]

137. Hahahahahaha....and that's why you're posting from Newsmax

and a right wing loony think tank.

To quote my buddy up higher: Pull the other one...it's got bells on.

"It's time we took away the "anti-rights gun grabber" hammer"
Why? The right wing sounds like they're having a fine old time beating themselves over the head with it....

Columbine Father Challenges Cheney On Assault Weapons

"PITTSBURGH -- A man whose son was killed in the Columbine High School shootings literally walked in his child's shoes to the National Rifle Association convention, where he hoped Vice President Dick Cheney would address the federal assault weapons ban set to expire in September.
Tom Mauser, whose son Daniel was killed with an assault weapon in the Littleton, Colo., killings five years ago Tuesday, said continuing the ban is common sense.
Assault weapons "are the weapons of gangs, drug lords and sick people," Mauser said before his three-block march to the convention, which runs through Sunday. "It is a weapon of war and we don't want this war on our streets."
Mauser entered the convention hall where the NRA was meeting, but was turned away by a security guard as several conventioneers applauded. A couple of conventioneers yelled "Get a life" and "Vote for Bush." "

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/3015989/detail.html

[Oaklander]

144. Let the Newsmax thing go. I already retracted my use of them as a source.

Also, your article from the Denver Channel is in error. NO assault weapons were used in the Columbine shootings. See here for a detailed description of the weapons used in the shootings.

Here's a quick rundown for everyone:

two 12-guage shotguns (sawed off/modified by the two idiots), a 9mm semi-auto pistol, and a 9mm semi-auto carbine (fires the same ammo as the 9mm pistol), several knives and a whole bunch of homemade bombs.

Overall a very deadly arsenal but not a single assault weapon in the bunch.

[TX-RAT]

138. You keep speaking of rights

Exactly what rights have you lost?

[Oaklander]

146. I haven't lost any of my rights...

And no government can take them away. What they CAN take away is my freedom to exercise those rights. My right to keep and bear arms is seriously infringed when I have to ask the permission of the government to exercise that right. I equate the need to get permission from the government to carry a gun with the government requiring me to get their permission to read a newspaper, or post something in this forum. How would you react if the government told you you had to get their permission before you posted something here, and they could regulate what you posted and how many posts you could make in a month? Wouldn't go down very well, would it?

[TX-RAT]

156. Help me get this right

You've never had a problem with law enforcement, but you oppose law enforcement.
You've never lost a right, but you accuse the government of taking them away
You've never had to ask permission to own a gun, yet your pissed because you think the Gov want your guns.
I ask whats wrong with this picture?

[Oaklander]

190. It's actually rather simple...

I don't oppose law enforcement, I oppose CORRUPT law enforcement.

I don't accuse the government of taking away my rights but rather infringing on my ability to exercise those rights.

I DID have to get government permission to own a gun. I had to fill out a firearm purchase permit request every time I purchased a gun and then await government approval to do so. It has not been a problem because I'm a law abiding citizen but what if some bureaucrat is having a bad day and decides he doesn't like guns and decides to start declining these permits for otherwise law abiding citizens.

We're talking about guns here, but what if the same criteria were applied to our other rights? Do you want to have the government approve all of your book/newspaper/magazine purchases before you are allowed to read them? How about if your 4th and 5th Amendment rights only applied if the government signed off on them first? Do you see what I'm getting at? Those are the things we will have to deal with if we don't stop the current administration's assault on our rights.

[CO Liberal]

13. No - The Source Is Incorrect

Newsmax is not considered a reliable source of information - they're nothing but right-wing propaganda.

If this story was in a more mainstream source, it might have more credibility.

ON EDIT - I guess you didn't read Guideline #3, in the messages that started this thread:

3 - Bear in mind that any links to extremely right-wing sites (such as Newsmax, CNS, or the Washington Times) or intentionally pro-gun or pro-control sites (such as the NRA or the Brady Campaign) are not considered reliable sources by many DU-ers. If at all possible, try to find a link for your story from a more mainstream source, such as a general-circulation newspaper or magazine site. If you choose to use a slanted site, be prepared for any negative feedback you may receive.

[Oaklander]

14. OK, thanks.

I hadn't realized that until I looked more closely at the sight.

[Oaklander]

18. This is directly from the California State Senate website:

Regarding Senate Bill 1152:
This bill enacts a new provision in law which requires that all retail sellers of ammunition at the time of purchase record the following information on a form to be prescribed by the Department of Justice:

The date of the transaction.
The name, address, and date of birth of the transferee.
The transferee's driver's license or other identification number and the state in which it was issued.
The brand, type, and amount of ammunition transferred.
The transferee's signature.
The name of the salesperson who processed the transaction.
The vendor shall also at the time of purchase or transfer obtain the right thumbprint of the purchaser or transferee on the above form.

This bill requires that the vendor:
Maintain these records on the premises of the vendor for a period of not less than two years from the date of the recorded transfer.

The records shall be subject to inspection by any peace officer at any time during normal business hours.

The problem I have is that the state wants to keep records on lawfull activities by citizens. How is this different from requiring all of the above information for the purchase of alchol, cigarettes, or groceries? Those too are lawful purchases. This bill also give the police the power to simply walk into a store and demand the store owners records on lawfull transactions by law abiding citizens. Now why do you suppose the police need to know what you and I are buying?

[MrBenchley]

21. Well, for one thing...

We hardly ever hear of citizens injured or killed by drive-by hotdog buns and fruit....

"This bill also give the police the power to simply walk into a store and demand the store owners records on lawfull transactions by law abiding citizens."
Because at least one of those law abiding citizens has perforated another.

"Now why do you suppose the police need to know what you and I are buying?"
Since I'm not buying ammo.....

[MrBenchley]

16. Ahem...

Here's some of the other crap on Newsmax's front page this AM:

"Kennedy Mocks Kerry; Daley Tells Kerry to Stop the Hatred
You know that Sen. John Kerry is in trouble when even his close ally Sen. Teddy Kennedy is ridiculing him."

Think that's incorrect?

"Tests Confirm Sarin Gas in Baghdad Bomb
Expect most media to barely mention Saddam Hussein's newly discovered WMD. "

Think that's incorrect?

"Bishop: Those Aiding Same-Sex Marriage Abet 'Evil' "

Think that's incorrect?

"Found: Weapons of Man's Destruction
195,000 men go impotent from unnecessary prostate surgery this year. * 21 types of prescription drugs sap your potency. * Sperm count dropped 50% since 1938...so you're half the man your grandpa was. Don't let this happen to you... "

Think that's incorrect?

Seems like a great proposal to me...think how many cases can be solved more easily when just a casing is found...

"Will fingerprints from a crime scene be run against a database of all ammo purchasers?"
Why not?

[Oaklander]

19. Point taken.

I will refrain from quoting NewsMax articles here.

[iverglas]

20. "news"max

The main point is that while the article linked to is framed as "news", it is essentially no more than opinion -- a particular opinion -- the opinion of the anti-firearms control groups and individuals quoted in the article to the exclusion of any other opinion. The "news" content of the piece is pretty slim.

I'm sure that there must, somewhere, be informed and intelligent opinion about the facts reported in that article that supports the proposal in question, and perhaps, somewhere, a more thorough report of the facts in question.

Who knows ... it might be worthy of discussion.

.

[MrBenchley]

9. 2 Hartford Detectives Shot; Suspect Is Killed

Another "responsible, law abiding gun owner" in action...

"Two Hartford police detectives were shot by a man with a shotgun during a drug raid here on Tuesday, and a suspect was then fatally wounded, the acting police chief said.
The detectives, whose injuries were not serious, had been executing a search warrant at a house a few blocks from Trinity College, Chief Mark Pawlina said. They are Nestor Caraballo, a 14-year veteran, and Jose Santiago, a 10-year veteran.
Chief Pawlina said that one of the detectives was shot in the chest, and the other in the face, arm and leg. He believed the first escaped serious injury thanks to his bulletproof vest."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/nyregion/26shot.html?ex=1086235200&en=f2fed4493e203d23&ei=5006&partner=ALTAVISTA1

[MrBenchley]

11. Shooting Investigation Puts Neighborhood On Lockdown (MI)

"SWAT teams surrounded a home in Sterling Heights Tuesday afternoon where a man was wanted in connection with a fatal shooting at a dance hall, according to Local 4 reports.
Police went door to door in the neighborhood south of 15 Mile, between Ryan and Dequindre roads, asking residents to stay inside their homes as a precaution.
Warner Elementary School -- which is currently housing students from Angus Elementary School, in the Warren Consolidated School District -- was also put on lockdown during the investigation. District officials said Sterling Heights police notified school officials to keep students and employees indoors around 11:50 a.m.
Some parents were attending a volunteer luncheon at the school when the lockdown occurred. "

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/kcra/20040526/lo_wdiv/2220684

Wonder how many hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money this burned up, all because we let a corrupt extremist lobby set public policy?

[MrBenchley]

17. 19-Year-Old Charged In Shooting Death (TX)

"A 19-year-old man was arrested Wednesday in connection with the shooting death of another man earlier this week.
Christopher Cody Kenyon was picked out of a photo lineup by several witnesses who said he was the man who fatally shot Martin Rodriguez, 21, late Monday at a West Side gasoline station. "

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040526/lo_ksat/2222039

[Oaklander]

68. Potato gun lands German men in stew

Three German men are facing weapons charges after being caught with a home-made potato gun.

The men were seen by a police patrol driving away from a lake in Kirchhain-Niederwald at speed. Officers gave chase and stopped the men who told them they'd been trying out the potato gun in front of spectators.

The men said they'd got instructions on how to make the gun from the internet. They'd used bits of piping and a fuse from a gas stove. They'd also used several spray cans to fire the weapon. The men were also carrying a number of potatoes, and told officers their gun could fire potato pieces more than 300 yards.

The potato gun is classed as a firearm and none of the men had a permit to own or carry one.

[MrBenchley]

107. No link?

Reminds one of the numbnutz from last year that was torturing frogs with such a device, and managed to shoot his own eyes out with a luckless amphibian.

[Oaklander]

113. Oops, sorry. Here's the link.

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_968399.html

I seem to remember something about the guy with the frogs. Well, like grandad said, "Stupidity is a self-correcting condition."

[Oaklander]

106. Agents arrest 14 at Nevada gun shows

RENO, Nev. - Federal agents working undercover at gun shows in Nevada the past year have arrested 14 suspects on charges ranging from dealing firearms without a license to illegal possession of machine guns and explosives, agents said Friday.

The FBI, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and local law enforcement joined to apprehend the 13 men and one woman in five Western states - Nevada, California, Utah, Idaho and Washington - as part of "Operation Over the Line."

http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2004/05/23/build/nation/87-gun-show.inc

[MrBenchley]

116. SOMEbody needs to go up and read the first post again....

Amusingly, one of the scumbags nabbed by the cops is a regular correspondent at one of those gunwankers forums that was hailed by our gun nuts for its courtesy.

[MrBenchley]

118. Two sought in shooting, standoff at Roy home (UT)

"Police are seeking two people in connection with an early-morning shooting that resulted in an eight-hour standoff outside a Roy home.
The shooting occurred just after 1 a.m. Tuesday, when a man fled the home near 4000 South and 2300 West and knocked on a neighbor's door. He was bleeding from a gunshot wound to the abdomen, Police Chief Greg Whinham said.
Police and medical personnel responded, and investigators were able to "backtrack to the house where the shooting happened," Whinham said.
Authorities surrounded the house and a SWAT team was called in as police tried to make contact with anyone inside. Nearby homes were evacuated and streets closed because police thought the home might contain an active methamphetamine lab, Whinham said.
A "substantial" methamphetamine lab was found in an outbuilding on the property, he said. "

http://www.sltrib.com/2004/May/05262004/utah/169831.asp

[MrBenchley]

122. Bismarck Man in Custody After Scary Night (ND)

"A 72 year old Bismarck man is in custody after causing quite a stir in his neighborhood last night.
Shortly before 10 o'clock last night, the man's neighbors called 911 after seeing him on his apartment balcony, waving a handgun, yelling and acting strangely.
Police went to his apartment, on Tacoma Avenue, and attempted to communicate with him.
They say the man pointed the gun at them, and refused to comply with their orders.
Police say they found six guns and ammunition in his apartment."

http://www.kfyrtv.com/showNews.asp?whatStory=2880

[Oaklander]

125. Obvious case of crossing the line.

He had no business brandishing a firearm and was certainly asking to be shot by pointing a gun at the police.

[MrBenchley]

127. Unloaded pistol found in student's locker (TX)

"An unloaded handgun was confiscated Monday morning at San Marcos High School.
Authorities found an unloaded 9mm Beretta handgun in the locker of a 15-year-old female student after other students told school officials they had seen the weapon.
Students reported to an SMHS administrator about 8:40 a.m. Monday that a student had a weapon on campus, officials say.
After speaking with several students, School Resource Officers and school administrators began searching for the gun."

http://www.sanmarcosrecord.com/articles/2004/05/25/news/news1.txt

[Oaklander]

128. Which brings us back to the age old question:

Where did she get the gun and where the hell were her parents?

[MrBenchley]

132. Actually, for the gun nuts here...

the age-old question seems to be "is there a picture of the gun and can we beat our meat over the ones we claim to have just like it?"

[Oaklander]

136. Ok, that was funny,...

But seriously, this girl's parents should be held accountable for her getting the gun. Either them, or whatever adult allowed a minor access to a firearm. There are certainly laws against giving a child a gun to bring to school. Let's prosecute the parents. Perhaps that'll change their attitude towards gun security.

[MrBenchley]

139. And accurate...

Why don't you tell us what sorts of idiots are calling any such proposal to restrict access a "burglar protection bill"?

[Oaklander]

148. I'm not sure to which idiots you are referring.

I haven't heard of anyone calling anything a "burglar protection bill".

[MrBenchley]

159. Yeah, and you never heard of Newsmax...

Nothing like an informed discussion...sure wish we were having one.

[MrBenchley]

161. Woman threatens husband with handgun (IA)

"A Burlington woman who threatened her husband with a butcher knife and loaded gun faces an aggravated domestic abuse charge.
Police officers were dispatched to 1108 N. Eighth St. on May 18 for a reported domestic dispute in which Colleen Doris Cooper, 39, same address, held her husband at gunpoint. A third party took the gun away from Cooper before police arrived. Cooper's husband, Scott Cooper, fled the area on foot.
Court records indicate that when police spoke with Colleen Cooper, she admitted to using the gun on her husband and police seized the gun.
An officer spoke with the husband, Scott Cooper, at his job. Scott Cooper said he and his wife got into an argument and she accused him of being unfaithful. Scott Cooper said his wife grabbed a large butcher knife out of the kitchen and threatened him with it. After several minutes, she grabbed a small silver gun out of her purse and pointed it at him. "

http://www.thehawkeye.com/daily/stories/ln19_0526.html

[MrBenchley]

164. Man Faces Reckless Homicide Charge In Girlfriend's Death (IN)

"A Delphi man accused of fatally shooting his girlfriend a week before her high school graduation has been charged with reckless homicide.
A witness told investigators that Nathan Dubes was "messing around" with a shotgun at Dubes' home Friday night when the weapon fired, striking Kolet Flood, 18, according to a police report.
Flood, a senior at Delphi High School and the mother of Dubes' infant son, died Sunday as a result of the wound, officials said. "

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/wrtv/20040526/lo_wrtv/2221438

[MrBenchley]

167. NRA to target 15 'uncooperative' senators (AZ)

Sticking up for drunks with guns...

"PHOENIX -- The National Rifle Association is targeting 15 state senators who refused Tuesday to support its plan to let people carry their guns where alcohol is served.
NRA lobbyist Darren LaSorte said his organization will "absolutely" work for the defeat at the polls of those who did not back SB 1210. "Our members expect us to," he said.
LaSorte said the NRA even will work against association members who did not toe the party line on this issue. "

http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/nav_includes/story.cfm?storyID=87905

Hope the Daily Show follows up...

[MrBenchley]

172. Unscathed in Gulf, sailor slain in L.A.

"Less than two months after returning from a tour of duty in the Persian Gulf, a Navy seaman was gunned down along with a friend by gang members firing an assault rifle outside a Hyde Park nightclub, police said Tuesday.
Brian Keith Butler Jr., 25, of Gardena, who had served in Japan and Bahrain during his four years in the Navy, died shortly before midnight Monday outside Charlie's nightclub at Ninth and Florence avenues, which he had just left with a friend. The friend, Melvin Deonte Knowles of Compton, also 25, died at a local hospital.
Police said Butler and Knowles had no gang ties.
"It's horrible. It's an absolute tragedy," said Lt. Tom Brascia of the Los Angeles Police Department's 77th Division. "The guy's an American hero. This is just sad.""

http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,200~20954~2171757,00.html

[MrBenchley]

184. Boy shoots self in foot (PA)

"A 10-year-old boy accidentally shot himself in the right foot Saturday afternoon with a .22-caliber pistol while he and his father were shooting turtles at a pond on their property in the Falcon area, the Laclede County Sheriff's Department reports.
The boy was taken by private vehicle to St. John's Hospital-Lebanon where he was treated and hospital officials notified authorities of the incident.
Deputies said the bullet passed through the youngster's foot."

http://www.lebanondailyrecord.com/articles/2004/05/25/local_news/news06.txt

And then he and his dad went next door and killed the neighbor's cat...