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This Is Kerry On Drugs (Starve a peasant, feed a terrorist)

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andyjackson1828 Donating Member (86 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 08:41 AM
Original message
This Is Kerry On Drugs (Starve a peasant, feed a terrorist)
For those who oppose the federal government's disastrous war on drugs, there are many things to dislike about the Bush Administration, not the least of which is its shameless—and dangerous—use of the war on terror to prop up the failed drug war and the accompanying $18 billion dollar bureaucracy. And there is no indication that four more years of a Bush presidency will offer anything but more of the same.

But anyone who thinks a vote for John Kerry means a vote for a more liberalized approach to drug policy should think again. Candidate Kerry's choice for Homeland Security Advisor, Rand Beers, is a seasoned drug warrior who has already shown his loyalty to the well being of the drug war, no matter how many lives it destroys, or how many narco- terrorists are enriched along the way.

There are currently several drug-warriors serving in decision making posts within the Bush Department of Homeland Security; ex-DEA administrator Asa Hutchinson is now Under Secretary for Border and Transportation Security. And another ex-DEA chief, Robert Bonner , is Commissioner of the Bureau of Customs and Border Protection.

Beers' drug warrior credentials go way back. As he put it in a 2002 deposition, "I first began to work in the counter-narcotics area in 1988 when I was on the National Security Counsel staff."

The rest at... http://www.reason.com/hod/dk071504.shtml
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. Jeepers, an attack on Kerry in the gungeon
using right wing horseshit from a right wing cesspool...

Who would of ever suspected such a thing could happen? (snicker)
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DavidMS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Actualy its an attack on an instutional drug warior culture...
I am amazed that no one has impeached the source (Reasion is kooky libertairain magazine). But the centeral point that the war on (some) drugs is a bad thing is valid.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Actually, it's a right wing attack on Kerry
in the gungeon....who is surprised? Me neither.
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Salmo Trutta Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. I sure as hell am not surprised...
this is the stock and trade of right wingers.
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gatlingforme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. It's an interesting article and has nothing to do with partisan politics
this is a bi-partisan effort to screw the tax payers on a continuous basis no matter who is in office. It's just red tape beauracratic bullshit that will never go away.
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Salmo Trutta Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. Yeah...this is bi-partisan
"But anyone who thinks a vote for John Kerry means a vote for a more liberalized approach to drug policy should think again. Candidate Kerry's choice for Homeland Security Advisor, Rand Beers, is a seasoned drug warrior who has already shown his loyalty to the well being of the drug war, no matter how many lives it destroys, or how many narco- terrorists are enriched along the way."

Which 2 parties would that be?
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gatlingforme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. ? was that a rhetorical question>?
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Salmo Trutta Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. You tell me
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #12
25. Yeah, surrrrrrrrrre....
and Faux Noise is "fair and balanced."
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gatlingforme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. I am going to snicker for the first time <snicker> LOL
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Salmo Trutta Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Too fattening...I stay away from those things.
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
2. Sorry, but I am not going to help
get Bush a second term.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Campaigning to end the drug war is a loser issue
That's just the way it is. Parents all over the country want to keep the kiddies off heroin and crack, and think that the stupid way the drug war is being fought is their best hope. If they're isolated in suburbia, they can pretend that all the junkies are downtown, sleeping in the gutter, and that the drug war will never visit their safe little homes.

Not until their kids are hooked on dope they bought from a buddy in their classes at school and they find out how much rehab costs and the kid is going cold turkey in a jail cell and they realize he's heading for a prison term that won't end until they're dead and he's an old man does the reality of the situation hit them.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Got a better way to fight the drug war
or just a bunch of stale stereotypes?
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enfield collector Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. do you remember the war on alcohol a.k.a. prohibition?
we didn't win that one either and now we have a massive well organised crime industry as a result of it.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Are you comparing cocaine/crack/heroin to beer?
n/t
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
3. This article seems to argue that
the main reason to stop the drug war is because it "destroys the lives of coca farmers" in Latin America, and that the drug war itself is enriching the lives of "narco-terrorists".

It doesn't provide any evidence to support that conclusion.
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Those would be two of the reasons.....
What kind of evidence do you need? It seems pretty obvious that those conclusions are accurate. Herbicide spraying of coca crops not only destroys the lives of the coca farmers, but contaminates the surrounding areas and destroys the lives of anyone who lives there.

Drug dealers do make huge profits in the black marketing of drugs, but the term "Narco-terrorists" sounds pretty stupid.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. You misunderstood my pt
The article actually argues that the dealers are profiting *from* the drug war.
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. Of course they are profiting from it!
Legalize the stuff...no black market....no huge profits for drug dealers. Seems pretty simple to me.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. You mean create something kind of like Phillip Morris for coke
now there's a plan! :crazy:
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LibLabUK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Hehehe...
""You mean create something kind of like Phillip Morris for coke"
"


That's exactly what the Loonytarians want. The idea of addicted users handing over their cash without question makes them weak in the knees.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. the term "Narco-terrorists"
... doesn't sound too stupid to the Colombian peasant farmers and trade unionists and indigenous peoples who are the victims of the terrorism perpetrated by the right-wing paramilitaries, which finance their operations through drug trafficking.

Yeah, since those aren't real terrorists -- they're not attacking the USofA and USAmericans -- I doubt they were the ones being referred to.

The US's DEA does charge that FARC and the ELN (the ones fighting *for* the peasant farmers and indigenous peoples of Colombia, regardless of what one may think of their means) fund their activities through drug trafficking, and it is undoubtedly correct:
http://www.useu.be/Terrorism/USResponse/Apr2402DEAHutchisonDrugsTerrorism.html

That report refers, pretty much in passing, to the right-wing paramilitaries, which it charmingly and utterly disingenuously calls by their own self-description, "self-defence groups" --

Right wing "self-defense groups" emerged in Colombia during the 1980s in response to insurgent violence. Hundreds of illegal self-defense groups - financed by wealthy cattle ranchers, emerald miners, coffee plantation owners, drug traffickers, etc. - conduct paramilitary operations throughout Colombia. The loose coalition known as the AUC (Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia) is the best known of these self-defense groups and has an estimated strength of 10,500 personnel.

DEA has established that these terrorist groups are involved in various aspects of drug trafficking activity including but not limited to: raising funds through extortion or protection of laboratory operations and clandestine airstrips; encouraging coca planting and discouraging alternative development; purchasing, transporting, and reselling cocaine within Colombia; and the distribution of cocaine to international drug trafficking organizations.
Hard to tell whether, when that second paragraph refers to "these terrorist groups", it's including the paramilitaries. But in the prose that follows, and the list that appears under this heading:

Colombia Terrorist Activity

Violent actions continue to be carried out by terrorist groups in Colombia, particularly the FARC and ELN. Recent terrorist actions conducted in Colombia include: ...
it just doesn't say anything more about 'em. This, despite the fact that the scale of the operations described in that article from Common Dreams -- devastating attacks on vulnerable and oppressed populations and their means of subsistence -- really kinda overshadows the stuff that the DEA report does cite:

According to the Government of Colombia, the FARC and ELN committed 260 terrorist attacks against the Covenas oil pipeline. The results of these terrorist attacks are equivalent to 11 times the spillage of the Exxon Valdez. These acts cost the Colombian government millions of dollars in revenue.
But then, no USAmericans or USAmerican profits were hurt by the paramilitaries, so obviously they can't be called terrorists.

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. thanks
for the info. It's obviously a complex situation, and the US is obviously "applying a roller to a Rembrandt"
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. uh, some things we hold to be self-evident
This article seems to argue that the main reason
to stop the drug war is because it "destroys the
lives of coca farmers" in Latin America, and that
the drug war itself is enriching the lives of
"narco-terrorists".
It doesn't provide any evidence to support that
conclusion.


But just in case, here's step one on the voyage of discovery:

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0326-03.htm

U.S. War on Drugs in Colombia is Ravaging
Farmers and Land

... Panetta went to Colombia in January <2001> to learn firsthand what our tax dollars are doing. What she saw suggests that the drug war is a horrific disaster at best, and at worst, a disaster and a cover-up.

"Colombia's military uses helicopters and airplanes to spray rainforests with glyphosate, a chemical manufactured by Monsanto," Panetta said. "They're supposedly killing coca plants, but they spray indiscriminately. In La Hormiga, a small city in the Amazon Territory, the spraying killed medicinal plants and food crops such as yucca. Yet, the adjacent coca fields flourished. Glyphosate seeps into the soil and water. Fish die in contaminated rivers."

People of the Amazon Territory's Putumayo region lose cows and other farm animals to glyphosate. "We have no birds or butterflies," said Palacios.

Residents, often indigenous people, develop diarrhea, fever and other ailments. Besides dead crops and livestock, paramilitary soldiers, working closely with the military, kidnap, torture and massacre people to force them off the land. "Indigenous peoples leave their sacred ancestral lands," said Palacios, who lives in Putumayo.

"If farmers stay, the paramilitary forces them to grow coca to finance its operations," Panetta added. "The farmers must also pay taxes to the paramilitary. But when the guerillas, who want reforms, find out, they attack the farmers as collaborators."

... "The U.S. has a hidden agenda in the war on drugs," Panetta said. "It is getting and keeping control of Colombia's resources: gold, silver, copper. Colombia may have the largest oil reserve in the Americas. The U.S. wants to control it." Gamboa Zuniga agreed: "The armed participants in this conflict are fighting for control of strategic places for business."

But the so-called "drug war" continues. "Research has yielded new chemicals such as a mutating fungus which would adhere to vegetation better," Panetta said. "Since it wouldn't wash off in the rainforests' downpours, it would wreak ecological havoc. We must urge our legislators to oppose this destruction . . . We don't need mutating fungi. We need anti-drug and drug-treatment programs here . Stop the demand and you stop the supply."

Palacios stressed pressuring legislators.

"We ask the American people to make a radical, frontal opposition to Plan Colombia," he said. "Tell them to find ways to support farmers' growing alternative crops. Also send food and clothes to displaced Colombians, but not through the government of Colombia, because we know what will happen in that case. Send help through churches."
The evidence of the horrific impact of the US's war on drugs on peasant farmers in Colombia (who generally grow coca only under duress or for lack of any other means of subsistence) is pretty glaring and pretty easily accessed.

And the fact is that about 0.001% of the US population gives a shit about peasant farmers in Colombia, so yup, this ain't exactly a winning election issue.

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. So you believe that the
subjective testimony of three people (no numbers, no facts) makes something "self-evident..."

interesting.
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. You don't believe they are spraying poison?
Or you believe the poison to be just fine and dandy...no problem?

Would you shrug it off so easily if it were your land being sprayed.

I have heard plenty of reports from alternative news sources about the effects of this spraying. Why do you doubt the ill effects? That makes no sense!
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
26. do I?
... "So you believe that the subjective testimony
of three people (no numbers, no facts) makes
something "self-evident..."
?

So, do I look like I do?

Or did I maybe just pull up the handiest and most helpful thing from my bookmarks file to get you started on your quest for knowledge and understanding?

I didn't say "here, let me mount an exhaustive case to substantiate the blatantly obvious assertion you claim to be having a problem with -- and this is unfortunately the only thing I can come up with".

Nooo. I said "here's step one on the voyage of discovery", and "The evidence of the horrific impact of the US's war on drugs on peasant farmers in Colombia ... is pretty glaring and pretty easily accessed".

Got Google?

Try asking it for colombia "war on drugs" farmers indigenous, just for an introductory sally into the field.

In addition to my bookmarked article, you get things like this on the very first page of results:

http://www.alertnet.org/thefacts/reliefresources/550440.htm

The official government reason behind the massive U.S. support for Colombia's war against the guerrillas is to stop the drug traffic in cocaine and heroin. While it is true that the rebels of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) depend on taxes they collect from coca farmers in southern Colombia to finance their activity, they have also called for development plans that would allow peasants to grow alternative crops.

In the absence of farm-to-market roads, technical assistance and credit, subsistence farmers have little choice but to plant coca if they are to feed their families.

However, the other major coca-producing region is in northern Colombia where most of the traffickers and paramilitaries are located. This area has not been targeted as part of the war on drugs despite the fact that Carlos Castano, the leader of Colombia's biggest paramilitary group the AUC, told a national Colombian television audience that the drug trade provided 70 percent of his organisation's funding. His autobiography, "My Confession", in which he admits to ordering and planning the 1990 assassination of left-wing presidential candidate Carlos Pizarro, is a bestseller in Bogota bookstores.

The so-called drug war has not targeted the drug kingpins. Instead, it is directed to the Putumayo coca-producing region of southern Colombia, the stronghold of the FARC.

Much of the $1.8 billion worth of U.S. military aid since 2000 has provided for the training, weapons and attack helicopters for the army's anti-drug battalions operating in this Amazon jungle area on the frontier with Ecuador.
I'm sure this source is no more credible: http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=2117

In the name of the "war on drugs" much of Colombia is being subjected to terror in the form of massacres, assassinations, rapes and the spraying of poison from airplanes. When in August 2000 Congress approved President Bill Clinton’s request for $1.3 billion to implement "Plan Colombia," the faith-based organization Witness for Peace decided to send a delegation of 100 people to see for themselves what was happening there, and I signed on. We feared that U.S. involvement would add to the violence in an already war-ravaged land, would create a situation similar to that of El Salvador in the 1980s or even lead to a debacle like our involvement in Vietnam. The trip confirmed these fears -- and more.

Plan Colombia, which President George W. Bush renamed the Andean Regional Initiative, is being sold as a key component of the war on drugs. The propaganda for it is so effective that even critics of U.S. policy in Colombia assume it is true. For example, NBC’s August 31 Dateline devoted a full hour to a skeptical look at what the U.S. is doing in Colombia. The program’s host, Geraldo Rivera, suggested that it will be impossible to stop the flow of drugs as long as demand for them is so high in the U.S. and warned of the danger that we might be drawn into a civil war. Though both points are important and valid, the program was notable for what it did not say.

Rightly calling attention to the extremely high level of violence in Colombia, Rivera failed to mention the group responsible for 70 percent of that violence: the paramilitary forces which, although ostensibly private and illegal, receive aid and cooperation from Colombia’s army and hence, indirectly, from the U.S. Neither did Rivera mention the 2 million people who have fled from the fighting and the aerial fumigation of their farms.
How 'bout School of the Americas Watch? http://soawne.org/SOAIraq2.html

A War without Borders...
Colombia, the Price of Oil & the War on Terrorism

The U.S. Role in Colombia:

Colombia has been a target of the “war on terrorism” since before it was titled such. On Sept. 10, 2001, the U.S. State Department designated 3 armed groups within Colombia as “terrorist organizations” -- the guerilla forces: FARC & ELN and the Paramilitary group, the AUC.

The connection between the “war on terrorism,” “war on drugs,” Colombia and the SOA is simple. The Colombian military is among one of the most corrupt and brutal militaries in Latin America. Despite this, more than 10,000 Colombian soldiers have been trained in the U.S. at the School of the Americas (SOA), now called the “Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation” (WHISC). Many high ranking Colombian officers, who are graduates of the SOA, continue to be cited for brutal atrocities, including murderous rampages which were conducted in association with the AUC paramilitary (assassins) group, whose tactics include torture and the dismemberment of bodies.

Despite this, since 2000, as part of “Plan Colombia,” the US has allocated over $2 billion for Colombia to purportedly “fight the war on drugs.” Ironically, a 2002 CIA report cites that coca production has increased by 25%! Tens of millions of dollars have gone directly to the notorious Colombian military, and hundreds of millions continue to be allocated to US weapons and chemical manufacturers. This plan, commonly referred to as the “Plan of Death,” has resulted in thousands of human rights atrocities, serious ecological destruction, and has contributed to the displacement of 4 million people. After approving an additional $600 million as part of the “Andean Initiative,” Congress agreed to an additional $100 million specifically earmarked for counter-insurgency offensives, which include protecting the oil pipe lines of LA-based Occidental Petroleum. As in Iraq, we have propped up, supplied and trained despotic dictators and militaries who have little or no regard for human rights; while U.S. petroleum corporations, government contractors, and weapons manufacturers have greatly benefited from the ravages of war and the chaos that ensues.
One more -- and these are all from page 1 of that Google search I suggested: http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/globalissue/drugwar/drugwar.html

The U.S.-led drug war and human rights abuses in Latin America

1 Purpose of this outline

a This outline focuses on specifically U.S. policy (and direct implementation thereof) pertaining to the so-called “war on drugs” in Latin America. Its purpose is to give the reader an overview of the political, economic and social costs – including human rights abuses - associated with interdiction, eradication and other “drug control” initiatives which form part of this “war”. To the extent that it is relevant this outline will also deal with issues in relation to general U.S. foreign policy goals for the Latin American region, and with issues in relation to political, social and economical problems facing both Latin America and the U.S. itself

b The outline will mainly be based on material provided by various academic institutions and organizations concerned with human rights, although recent press clips will be added when relevant and when time and resources permit.

2 Perspectives behind this outline

a There are, of course, violent forms of drug interdiction, human rights abuses and other repressive policies being carried out by various Latin American governments, military and police forces – (and sometimes by opposition groups to these entities) – which are not directly supported or endorsed by the U.S. It is therefore not the view of CCR that culpability for all the costs and abuses related to the drug war can be exclusively attributed to the U.S. It is rather to highlight the criticism of the arguments and methods behind a primarily militaristic drug control policy, and the heavy responsibility that the U.S. bears for the many of the war’s costs (directly or indirectly) as well as for the failure to find more rational, less costly solutions to drug control.

b Also – for the record - it is not the intent of this outline to endorse drug trafficking or drug abuse.


If you want to dispute any of the facts reported, or challenge the credibility of the people reporting them, do feel quite free to do that.

Asking *me* boorish and very stupidly condescending questions implying that I am an idiot who believes things based on one report like the one I showed you really does not rise to the level you need to be aiming for in that respect.

"interesting"

Indeed. The things that people claim to have deduced from the things other people say just never cease to amaze and fascinate me.

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #26
34. You're the one who cocksuredly used the phrase "self-evident"
then failed to back it up;

who condescendingly offered to 'get me started on my quest for knowledge and understanding"; :puke:

And then "boorish, condescending..." blah blah blah

Let's go back to square one, shall we? My post went something like this:
"The article seems to argue that the main reason to stop the drug war is because it 'destroys the lives of coca farmers' in Latin America."

I have no doubt it destroys the lives of coca farmers in Latin America. I also have no doubt that coca farming itself and the tremendous income it generates can be blamed for the violence and oppression there, as well as clumsy US eradication efforts. Instable, depressed, economies and official corruption don't help either. It's a complex issue which needs more attention than either the administration or (I dare say) *you* are willing to give it.

It appears I've challenged the security of your own convictions and I find that very satisfying. So come off your high horse unless you think you're above being questioned (if that's the case, you're on the wrong board) :eyes:
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. ackcherly
Let's go back to square one, shall we? My post went something like this:
"The article seems to argue that the main reason to stop the drug war is because it 'destroys the lives of coca farmers' in Latin America."


Yeah, something like that. But really, more like this:

This article seems to argue that the main reason to stop the drug war is because it "destroys the lives of coca farmers" in Latin America, and that the drug war itself is enriching the lives of "narco-terrorists". It doesn't provide any evidence to support that conclusion.

I'm still having a darned hard time trying to figure out what your point might be, I must say.

I have no doubt it destroys the lives of coca farmers in Latin America. I also have no doubt that coca farming itself and the tremendous income it generates can be blamed for the violence and oppression there, as well as clumsy US eradication efforts. Instable, depressed, economies and official corruption don't help either.

What ... you consider those things self-evident?

Self-evidence is truly in the eye of the beholder. It is self-evident to most people that the sky is blue. To the person with his/her eyes firmly shut, it isn't.

It's a complex issue which needs more attention than either the administration or (I dare say) *you* are willing to give it.

Gosh. You wouldn't be making an assertion (that italicized stuff) without offering any evidence to back it up, would you??!?? Surely you're not claiming that the truth of that assertion is self-evident, given how there really isn't any evidence at all to support it.

It appears I've challenged the security of your own convictions and I find that very satisfying.

You wot?! It appears that you're talking out your bum, and in some strange language of your own, at that.

I don't even have a clue what "convictions" you might be referring to, let alone what makes your challenge to the security of them apparent.

(You aware of the connection between "evident" and "apparent"? Something that is "apparent" has "come into sight"; something that is evident is something that is "seen out of". And while the truth of the conclusion for which you said no evidence had been offered, which I referred to as "self-evident", can be pretty readily seen out of the facts at everyone's fingertips, the truth, or even reasonableness, of your own conclusion is just not quite as readiliy seen.)

But I'd love for you to tell me. What convictions of mine have you challenged the security of??

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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
13. Kool! Divide and Conquer, attack from the left! Karl Rove loves this!
Republicans love capitalizing on this kind of thing. It is all about Dividing the Dems so that Bush can remain in power.

Sorry, not gonna get distracted.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Welcome to the gungeon!
We get nothing but attacks on democrats and right wing shit like this day in and day out from our "pro gun democrats"...this is actually mild compared to some of the other crap.

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andyjackson1828 Donating Member (86 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
31. Am I going to vote for Bush?
Of course not.

Is the War on (some) Drugs destructive to civil liberties?
Do we have more people in jail and prison than any other country?
Are we ruining the lives of people in South America who have never done anything to us?
Couldn't we spend all this money on something more productive like education or health care?


Is running against The War on (some) Drugs really such a losing issue?

Hasn't Medical Marijuana passed in 9 states, (plus DC is they would let the votes be counted)?

There are an awful lot of people out there, who have smoked pot or done cocaine. I know I am one of them. They don't think they should be locked up. Are they a threat to civil society?


Is there a need for a Drugs in the News daily feature?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Is Reason a not very well disguised right wing cesspool?
Yup.

Does posting it here serve any useful purpose?
Not for Democrats.

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andyjackson1828 Donating Member (86 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Do I agree with eveything Reason publishes?
Of course not.

Am I still voting for Kerry, in spite of his position on the drug war?

Yes.

Is Reason Right Wing?

They opposed the War in Iraq, favor drug legalization, oppose the Patriot Act, and are pro-pornagraphy.

Are they kind of nuts by wanting to get rid of most regulation of business?

Yes.

Should Democrats and Progressives speak out against the Injustices of War on (some) Drugs?

Absolutely!

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Do we have to be deluged with right wing crap in the gungeon?
Evidently, yes.

"Is Reason Right Wing?"
Does shit stink?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. and which of these
Is Reason Right Wing?
They opposed the War in Iraq, favor drug legalization, oppose the Patriot Act, and are pro-pornagraphy.

Are they kind of nuts by wanting to get rid of most regulation of business?
Yes.


... do we suppose they really care about (and which is the window-dressing for "liberals" who choose to be complicit or allow themselves to be made stooges)?

... if implemented, is likely to make significant and lasting improvements in the quality of life of ordinary working people and their families?

Vote here, folks. Libertarian plank one, or Libertarian plank two?

Here are your hints:

Which one do they really care about?
second plank (with the first plank being for those complicit/stooge types).

Which one is likely to make those significant and lasting improvements?
neither plank.
Some elements of the first plank may relieve some hardship for certain groups of people, although to what extent, and with what perverse negative effects on them or others, is debatable.
The second plank, well, that way lies a whole lot more hardship.

I'm just glad I was born with the decency not to be complicit and the smarts not to be a stooge, myself.

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andyjackson1828 Donating Member (86 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Am I a Libertarian Stooge?
Didn't I already state that I am voting for Kerry, despite my reservations about his vote for the war on Iraq, his vote for the Patriot Act, and his support on the War on Some Drugs?

<i>Some elements of the first plank may relieve some hardship for certain groups of people, although to what extent, and with what perverse negative effects on them or others, is debatable.</i>

Are you saying you think that ending the Iraq occupation or keeping the Patriot Act is debatable?

Would I work with Libertarians who wanted to legalize Gay Marriage, while opposing them when they try to eliminate the minimum wage?

Did Senator Byrd vote for the FMA? Am I happy about that? Do I still support him when he slams Bush for an illegal war?

Isn't it possible to build coalitions to promote certain issues?

Isn't the War on (Some) Drugs and outrage that needs to end?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. did I say you were?
"Am I a Libertarian Stooge?"

I don't thiiiink I said that.

"Are you saying you think that ending the Iraq occupation or keeping the Patriot Act is debatable?"

Hmm. Let's see. What I *did* say was:

Some elements of the first plank may relieve some hardship for certain groups of people, although to what extent, and with what perverse negative effects on them or others, is debatable.

And the elements of that plank were:

They opposed the War in Iraq, favor drug legalization, oppose the Patriot Act, and are pro-pornagraphy.
Hmm again. If you said that you like roses, cotton candy, kittens and elephants, and I said "some elements of what you like are pink", would you REALLY ask me whether I was saying that kittens and elephants are pink, or claim that the fact that some roses are yellow invalidates my assertion? And if you did, would you not feel just a tiny bit disingenuous?

Isn't it possible to build coalitions to promote certain issues?

Yes indeed it is. I'm rather a firm supporter of certain coalitions. In fact my own (social democrat) party, the NDP, is going to be doing just that in the coming months: trying to build ad hoc coalitions within the Parliament of Canada to have the policies and legislation we advocate adopted.

But it's not like we're going to be portraying the Liberals as paragons of social democracy while we're at it ... or even actually believing that the Liberals are genuinely committed to the principles behind the initiatives they coalesce with us on in order to remain in power.

Isn't the War on (Some) Drugs and outrage that needs to end?

Indeed it is. But I quite fail to see what progressives entering into a coalition with a politically utterly irrelevant bunch of right-wing loons is going to accomplish in that direction, other than to bestow legitimacy and credibility on them that they in no way deserve.

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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-15-04 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
40. locking
this is turning into a flamewar and for good reason - it isn'et supportive of Kerry and it comes from a RW source. Its been open long enough.
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