here's an idea: let's embrace the notion of a "Big Tent" website

[taxidriver]

and understand that we might just have different opinions about gun laws and what not. it is most likely that we are not going to sway people's opinion's either way. the reason there is an ignore button is so that if an idea offends you, you dont have to start a flame war.

(this is not a holier than thou thread- try and read a gun post without having it resort to an argument between rkba's and pro gun-control people, and you'll understand what i mean.)

[MrBenchley]

Here's an even better idea...

let's have our "pro gun democrats" stop sniping at Democrats and posting right wing talking points, and let's have them go over to those gun nuts forums and make arguments about why gun owners should vote for Kerry....

[taxidriver]

3. i've never sniped at a dem. candidate. i do snipe at you occasionally

because it annoys me that i'm not allowed to like guns.

[MrBenchley]

10. I DO hope you're not trying to pretend

that your fellow "pro gun democrats" DON'T....

"i do snipe at you occasionally"
Gee, do you? I really don't much pay attention to most of what our "pro gun democrats" have to say...and most of it is well worth ignoring.

"it annoys me that i'm not allowed to like guns"
That's hilarious tragic. Know what annoys me? It annoys me to have people constantrly pimping for the GOP's legislative priorities and sniping at Democrats. It annoys me to have people who are not at all upset by open bigotry, but bent out of shape when bigots are pointed out. It annoys me that our "pro-gun democrats" post all sorts of right wing crap here, but got nothing but excuses as to why they can't post something proDemocrat on any gun nut forum.

[taxidriver]

14. when have i ever said i'm not upset by bigotry? you assume a lot.

[MrBenchley]

18. Hey, if you are...

Feel free to wander over to any gun owner forum and tell them that you don't think somebody like Nugent or Pratt should head up gun owners' groups...

As far as I can tell, you'll be the first gun owner anywhere on the web to say "boo" on that subject...although I can point to hundreds (maybe thousands) of posts from "pro gun democrats" here either
a) denying that Nugent and Pratt are racists
b) demanding proof that Nugent and Pratt are racists and then slinking away in silence, and/or
c) making an irrelevant straw man argument and beating it furiously.

[taxidriver]

22. if i do that, will you feel free to stop jumping the gun on these threads?

no pun intended. but seriously...

[MrBenchley]

28. Why should I?

If racism and bigotry doesn't bother you enough to speak out, that's not my problem.

[taxidriver]

23. and would you give me a link to work with, too?

to a wingnut forum.

[MrBenchley]

32. Gee, the whole idea of those forums

is that they're not supposed to be wingnut havens, but places for honest gun owners to speak their minds...

Of course, they end up being right wing cesspools...

Here are a handful...and there are plenty of others...

http://www.glocksunlocked.com

http://www.thehighroad.org

http://www.ar15.com/

[OpSomBlood]

24. It's funny how the RKBA folks here never feel the need...

...to order the anti's around and give them little extracurricular homework assignments to prove their loyalty.

It's also funny that Ignored seems to spend more time at pro-gun message boards than all of the rest of us combined.

[MrBenchley]

35. No, what's funny is the "pro gun demcorats"

spouting all these excuses as to why they can't possibly say anything proDemocrat. I think the funniest one was the "enthusiast" who claimed he couldn't think of anything proDemocrat.

"more time at pro-gun message boards than all of the rest of us combined"
Yeah, it's as much fun as the zoo, only with weirder specimens...and sometimes I see the right wing crap you guys are going to post here, before you get around to posting it.

[taxidriver]

31. i do not have some kind of burden of proof here. i guess you dont either

since you keep calling me racist without proof.

[MrBenchley]

36. Hey, you don't have to prove anything to me...

but don't come crying to me when I point out again that there's no "liberal gun owner" on the web anywhere even pretending to be troubled by open racism and bigotry...despite the claims that there are millions of such specimens out there...

[MrBenchley]

1. Dupe...

"According to a July 8, 2004 press release, Sensenbrenner stated, "On March 2nd, the Senate overwhelmingly rejected by an 8-to-90 margin legislation that included an assault weapons ban extension along with other provisions." http://www.wispolitics.com/printerfriendly.iml?Article=19725

However, Sensenbrenner failed to note that the 8-90 vote was on a legislative package sponsored by the gun lobby to grant gun makers unprecedented legal immunity, which many lawmakers opposed. The assault weapons ban itself was approved as an amendment to this legislation on a bipartisan 52-47 vote!"

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040712/cgm061_1.html

[FeebMaster]

2. Why should gun owners vote for Kerry? (nt)

[MrBenchley]

4. Nuff said....

[FeebMaster]

5. Not really.

It's a legitimate question. Why should gun owners vote for Kerry? Especially based on the gun issue.

[OpSomBlood]

6. Right now, the only reason I have to vote for Kerry is that he's not Bush.

As a gun owner, he has done exactly nothing to win my confidence that he will fight to uphold the Second Amendment individual right to bear arms.

The one granted to "the people" for those taking score at home.

[MrBenchley]

7. Gee, feeb, ask me next...

if I actually believe any gun owners here are really Democrats.....

[FeebMaster]

8. My God! You mean you don't!

All this time I had no idea what you were talking about when you said "pro-gun Democrats." It's all so clear to me now. I am shocked. Although maybe if you had used pro-gun "Democrats" I might have understood.


Really though, why should gun owners vote for Kerry? How can I go campaigning for Kerry on all these gun boards without some campaign slogans? Vote for Kerry he didn't manage to ban .30-30 ammo doesn't really have a good ring to it. Help me out here.

[MrBenchley]

11. Nuff said...

[FeebMaster]

13. Not really.

It's a legitimate question. Why should gun owners vote for Kerry? Especially based on the gun issue.

[MrBenchley]

15. Feeb, keep telling us it's a legitimate question....

please...

[FeebMaster]

16. It is a legitimate question. (nt)

[JayS]

47. I'll second that. n/t

n/t

[Wonk]

9. I'm sure some are. I'm also pretty darn sure some aren't, but just like to

play one on DU (and only seem to find their way out of the gungeon when there's a gun related thread in GD or LBN).

[MrBenchley]

12. As they say, I'm from Missouri...

[taxidriver]

17. explain to me why owning guns and supporting that makes me a racist.

i didnt say i support the aryan nation or something. how does being a gun owner make me a racist? and what does that say about minority gun owners? are they racists too?

[MrBenchley]

19. c

[OpSomBlood]

21. You see...he said that, but he didn't really SAY that.

That's about the closest thing to an "explanation" I've gotten for RKBA=racism.

Racists like guns, therefore guns are racist. Yeah.

[MrBenchley]

25. Really, op...

Why don't you show us where I said that?

[taxidriver]

27. why dont you tell me what "C" means? and if you really think

you havent at least infered that gun owners are racist bigots...than i am surprised. read your own posts in this and other threads...maybe the one entitled "what's behind the gun rights sheet".

eh?

[MrBenchley]

37. What was the "c" option in post #18?

"what's behind the gun rights sheet".
And what is, do you suppose?

"Guns entered national politics in the 1970s. What is called the gun rights movement sprang into motion against a waning civil rights movement and a growing push for women's rights. One organizer of gun rights from the early '70s put it bluntly when I interviewed him. Conservatives were taking a beating. Something was needed to "reverse the flow in the pipes" of the civil rights movement. The social movements based on the rights of women and minorities had bolstered the Democratic Party. Conservatives who had fought against the gains of civil rights and the Equal Rights Amendment needed to counter. Enter the gun.
And when the gun spoke, it championed the cause of conservative and libertarian America. A proxy politics, the gun rights movement is a potent reaction to the social and political agendas of what is perceived as "liberal America." It takes aim at a range of social solutions for crime, international conflict and personal security. In America, the gun has become a litmus test for political beliefs.
The beginnings of this movement were quiet. In the early '70s, the Young Americans for Freedom, a conservative political organization, started the Student's Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. From it sprang the Second Amendment Foundation and then Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. In those groups a righteous cause and a political vision was born. Guns began their career as key props in a changing political theater.
Within two years, the Gun Owners of America organization appeared with its leadership roots in the John Birch Society. Thirty years later, the group remains true to its mission, a watchdog group making sure the gun rights movement stays on course, fulfilling its reactionary conservative mandate. "

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/176458_focus06.html

[OpSomBlood]

29. Well, for starters...

Anyone in favor of individual RKBA is merely "peddling right-wing horseshit" and that the desire to own guns is really just latent racism "peeking out from beneath the 'gun rights' sheet" (nice KKK imagery there, two points).

Also, anyone who supports the right to own guns is obviously represented on every political level by Ted Nugent and Charlton Heston. And since racists like to have guns, that means wanting to own a gun must make you racist.

Am I close to the mark? Is there even a mark?

[MrBenchley]

38. In other words...

when you get caught peddling right wing horseshit you don't like it....

"anyone who supports the right to own guns is obviously represented on every political level by Ted Nugent and Charlton Heston"
Gee, if only they weren't board members of the largest gun owners' group in the country (and the second largest group is headed by an even more virulent bigot).

"Am I close to the mark?"
Not hardly.

[taxidriver]

30. see response number 28.

are you being this obstinate on purpose? no wonder they call you 'ignore'.

[MrBenchley]

40. Too too funny--it's not particularly obstinate

to expect somebody on a message board for liberals and progressive to share liberal and progressive values.

The idea that somebody needs to make a deal before he feels he need to speak out against openly display bigotry seems pretty abhorrent to me...

[taxidriver]

45. since when isnt it progressive or liberal to support yet another freedom

the rkba. try being a little more open minded.

[taxidriver]

20. i guess the idea of my thread didnt work. oh well, the gungeon is doomed

to be a flamepit.

[MrBenchley]

26. Don't see any flames here...

except perhaps op's sniping....

I do see you avoiding a bunch of issues...and it's heartening to see the way our "pro gun democrats" answered feeb's "question." (snicker)

[OpSomBlood]

33. On that note, enjoy the rest of your Friday night on the internet.

Me, I'm going to engage in interpersonal social interaction. Later.

[taxidriver]

34. yeah, i asked the mods to lock this thread.

its obvious that the proposal it suggested was not accepted.

[Liberal Classic]

39. I've asked before for

Civility and respect among posters.

We're required by the posting rules to treat other posters with respect and civility. Even posters we disagree with, especially posters we disagree with.

[MrBenchley]

41. We're also required by the posting rules

to reflect Democratic or progressive values. Evidently speaking out against openly displayed bigotry and racism is not among those in some people's estimation...unless they can make a deal that will allow them post gun porn without being giggled at.

[Liberal Classic]

42. "We welcome a wide range of progressive opinion."

Evidently speaking out against openly displayed bigotry and racism is not among those in some people's estimation...unless they can make a deal that will allow them post gun porn without being giggled at.

No, of course speaking out against racism is not wrong.

Since you are pointing out the rules, here is what they say:

This is a "big tent" message board. We welcome a wide range of progressive opinion. You will likely encounter many points of view here that you disagree with.

Who defines progressivism? Who defines liberalism? You?

It takes all kinds. There are some people on DU who are morally opposed to abortion, for example.

We ban conservative disruptors who are opposed to the broad goals of this website.

I fully support this.

If you think overall that George W. Bush is doing a swell job, or if you wish to see Republicans win, or if you are generally supportive of conservative ideals, please do not register to post, as you will likely be banned.

I don't. I can honestly say I didn't vote for him.

People who repeatedly and willfully break the rules, or who generally engage in rude, antisocial behavior, will be banned. It doesn't matter if you are a progressive or a long-term member of this board.

I fully support this, too.

PERSONAL ATTACKS, CIVILITY, AND RESPECT...

Every member of this community has a responsibility to participate in a respectful manner, and to help foster an atmosphere of thoughtful discussion. In this regard, we strongly advise that our members exercise a little common decency, rather than trying to parse the message board rules to figure out what type of antisocial behavior is not forbidden.

This means that we are to treat posters on this board with respect, especially those with whom we disagree.

We are *NOT* supposed to to attempt break the spirit of the rules while adhering to the letter.

[MrBenchley]

43. Too too funny....

Why don't YOU take a crack at answering feeb's question?

[taxidriver]

44. none of this is "too too" anything.

and it appears that guns are your Hill to Die On issue. i dont know how to explain to you that just because there are people that own guns and are racist, doesnt mean we all are. and to assume that we are that way here at DU gets real, real old. I wish we could have some kind of Detente or something.

[Liberal Classic]

46. Please do not try to change the subject

The topic of this thread is the notion of the "Big Tent" and that of civility in this forum. Since you have addressed me directly, I shouldn't be accused of stalking or anything like that. I feel that we should try to bury the proverbial hatchet. If we can come to some sort of agreement, we will set a good example for others in the forum to follow.

I have on several occasions tried to discuss this issue with you. I have apologized for statements made in anger at you, and have asked that you respond in kind. I would like to extend this apology again, though it has never really been retracted. I have on occasion said some things I am not proud of, and clearly they were against the posting guidelines of the forum because they were removed. You've had some posts to me pulled as well. Will you not extend to me the same courtesy? Can you not stand united with me on such a modest thing as just following the rules? If we can agree on one small thing, maybe despite the differences we've had before we will find that we agree on other, larger, more important things. Is that not the purpose of the big tent?

[taxidriver]

48. here here. *clapping* thank you, i feel a little vindicated for starting

this thread now. although i let myself get sucked into flaming on it already. shucks.

[Liberal Classic]

49. It's hard not to get sucked into flamewars

There's a reason Justice/Public Safety is called the 'gun dungeon' though. :)

I think it is important to remember that we are not just looking at words on the screen. Behind each of them sits a real live person. It's easy to forget that in online discussions, and most people will say things online that they'd never say in person. There is something about double-blind anonymity that brings out both the best and the worst in people. Maybe it is the lack of consequences for actions, or something.

At any rate, I've been told by the moderator volunteers that the best thing to do is to not to respond in kind and to hit the "Alert" button. We're not supposed to follow people around the forum harping at them, or start threads calling people out. As a last resort, there's an icon that looks like a little drunk guy passed out, I think it is for putting people on ignore.

Personally, I hate doing these things. I have a moral opposition to censorship and hate to run to the moderators. I don't use the Alert button much, I prefer to make a public post in opposition. But that's just me.

[Moderator]

50. Locking.

Per the request of the thread's author.