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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 05:17 PM
Original message
NH: Extend assault weapons ban now
"We could fill a newspaper with the eccentricities of gun laws. We’d rather see our state and federal lawmakers offer uniform, effective legislation.
In the meantime, it is just plain common sense to extend the ban on assault weapons. Perhaps our view is best represented by the words of Portsmouth Police Chief Michael Magnant: "It’s just common sense. If you want to reduce violent crime, we need to reduce the number of these types of weapons. Law enforcement is united on this issue."
And we stand with those officers. "

- The Portsmouth Herald

http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/07122004/editoria/26386.htm
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. the AWB is a bunch of bullshit
It doesn't help lower crime.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Not even close to true...
Which is why 70% of voters, the Democratic ticket, most Democratic elected officials, pretty much every liberal organization and pretty much every liberal write ror pundit around supports it.

On the other hand, the Aryan Nation and Ted Nugent agree with the claim that it's bullshit.
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Please explain...
how the lack of a bayonet lug, pistol grip, and collaspable or foldable stocks help lower crime?
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well, it was slightly more accurate than most pro-awb
articles. Not a single mention of the SKS either.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. Then New Hampshire can pass their own "assault weapon" ban
One size fits all gun laws are an abomination. I trust the people and legislature of New Hampshire to design their own gun laws better than the politicians and the gun grabber lobby in Washington.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Gee, that's hilarious...
<sarcasm>Good thing we've got those impenetrable barriers between states...

Just as it's fortunate there's no money to be made in gun running...
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. AW's should be a federal crime.
States can regulate hunting and stuff...but I think a uniform Federal law on banning assault weapons makes sense.

BTW, I'm not anti-guns. I don't own any, but I have no issue with others owning them. But there is no justification for owning assault weapons or weapons that can easily be converted into automatic weapons.
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Do you have a link for this...
"weapons that can easily be converted into automatic weapons. "

Do you have a link that states how, or even a link that states it can be done easily?

I imagine if AWs can easily be converted into full auto, then there is a link on the web for how to do it. But before you do, if the link is from the Brady Bunch or the VPC or some other gun fearing group than don't bother....but if you now of a website, like the ATF of DOJ or other respectable source, please post it, because I would like to verify that it can be done.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Do you really want to pretend it can't be done, town?


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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Hey, bench, aren't AK-47s already full auto?
?
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. They can be sold as single-shot only weapons, with modifications...
IN order to sell legally, you have to have alot of safeguards that will make it nearly impossible or wreck the gun if you try to tamper it into automatic.
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. hmmmmmmmm...
"you have to have alot of safeguards that will make it nearly impossible or wreck the gun if you try to tamper it into automatic."

wouldn't know it based on some of the postings here about turning them full auto.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Well, that is quite illegal to do...
some guns are less a challenge to do on than others I believe...(like auto pistols).

In this forum, alot of people talk about doing alot of things (showing off).
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. What's quite hilarious is that not so long ago
we had "pro gun democrats" SIMULTANEOUSLY claiming that it was nigh onto impossible (without a "Manhattan Project" type effort) to convert an assault weapon to automatic...but a piece of cake to make guns from scratch using common household items....
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. No, we said that anyone who can convert likely can build from scratch.
There's a subtle difference.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Yeah, surrrrrrrrrrre you did....
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Your debate technique worked great in Kindergarten.
As an adult, it doesn't have nearly the same impact.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. That's why it works so well with our "pro gun democrats" op....
they have nothing but this childish pouting....

Otherwise you'd be posting ilnks to threads to show how I mischaracterized the "debate"...

But we both know you won't because you can't...
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. No, I won't do it because I refuse to expend effort countering you.
Your arguments are irrational and obviously motivated by some kind of personal tragedy you've experienced. You repeatedly refuse to be civil or polite (in direct violation of DU board rules) to anyone whose beliefs on guns are different from yours. You constantly accuse pro-gun people of being right-wingers or Freepers, which is also a DU rules violation.

Any effort to approach discourse with you in a thoughtful and civilized way is wasted. You simply refuse to approach this topic in a manner that indicates any desire for compromise. And when people do cater to your requests (such as when I posted to those gun boards), you say that it isn't enough to prove loyalty.

Well, I'm tired of trying to prove my loyalty to you. If your narrow, ignorant and rude viewpoint is the heart and soul of the Democratic party, well I'm just not a fucking Democrat then.

All you need to do now is figure out a way to alienate and expel all of the rest of the pro-gun people from the party...that way you'll guarantee you'll never win another election. What a brilliant strategy.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. If you could you would, but you can't so you won't....
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 01:09 PM by MrBenchley
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Zister Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. yeah by criminals
Who already own a firearm unlawfully. I wonder how a criminal will feel about stricter gun laws?

The guys in that Hollywood Shootout had already broken 13 Federal laws before they fired the first shot.
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mbnd45 Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. If you really are concerned
If you really concerned about conversion of semi-auto to full-auto conversions, why don't you do your research and learn exactly how it is accomplished. I own an AR15 style rifle (post ban), and I can tell you that the assault weapons ban does absolutely nothing to prevent these conversions. Instead of worrying about passing a law that bans cosmetic features, how about a law that would require bolt carriers that won't trip an autosear? Colt does this voluntarily, as do almost all manufacturers. How about requiring a high shelf in the lower receiver, preventing the installation of lightning links and drop-in autosears? (All but one or two manufacturers do this now). How about holes in the lower receiver that will not allow the installation of M16 fire control parts? (Colt does this now).

I personally don't support these ideas, because I prefer to have standard size parts, but at least a law to that effect would actually do something to prevent full-auto conversions (which are rarely done anyway).

Instead, you focus your energy on "sticking it" to "gun crazies" with ineffective, symbolic laws.

The ironic thing about the assault weapons ban is that there's nothing preventing anybody from buying pre-ban parts and assembling a post-ban gun into a pre-ban configuration. Even then, there's nothing more deadly about pre-ban configured guns. For example, collapsible stocks are illegal, yet it's perfectly legal to completely remove the buttstock, provided the rifle is at least 26". Fixed stocks as short as 7" are available and legal for installation on post ban guns. These stocks are exactly the same length as a fully collapsed tele-stock.

The grenade launcher portion of the ban refers to the outside diameter of the compensator on the end of the barrel, 22mm. Any muzzle device with this dimension is a defacto grenade launcher because a rifle grenade could theoretically be fired. This is laughable because rifle grenades are not available to civilians. These rifle grenades are not in common use even by any of the military forces of the world. Our soldiers don't even use this type of grenade, they use m203's, a 40mm launcher that mounts under the barrel. A 37mm version of this launcher is available to the civilian market, and legal to mount on a post ban rifle. (only flares are available for these.)

The whole bayonet lug thing is a joke. If bayonets are so deadly, why are they perfectly legal to mount on a pump shotgun or any other gun, as long as they don't fall under the definition of "assault weapons".

If flash supressors are so deadly, why can they be legally mounted to a bolt action rifle or any handgun, except those handguns defined as "assault weapons"? Besides, like I said before, if someone were so inclined, they could just buy a flash supressor and install it without reguard for the law. The AWB does nothing to physically prevent this. Flash supressors are available for $5 on scores of web sites. Muzzle flash is quite visible even with a flash supressor anyway.

Pistol grips do nothing to make any firearm more deadly. Non-pistol gripped guns are actually easier to fire from the hip position than pistol-gripped guns. On the AR15, the bolt and bolt carrier ride inside of a tube in the buttstock. This requires a buttstock that is straight in line with the bore. With this configuration, a pistol grip is necessary for the shooter to reach the trigger with his/her hand. Not that it matters anyway, because spray-firing from the hip is a myth. Like I said before, there's nothing physically preventing anybody from simply installing a pistol grip without reguard for the law. They're available and legal to buy.

Threaded barrels are not intended for the installation of silencers, which are already strictly regulated. On the AR15 rifle they're threaded so that the muzzle device can be removed, which is the first step toward disassembly of the barrel components (fromt sight base, delta ring, weld spring, barrel nut, snap ring). Besides, if someone really wanted to make an illegal silencer, it could simply be attached with set screws or compression fittings.

Standard (high) capacity magazines continue to be readily available even after ten years. They're perfectly legal to own and use in post-ban firearms. Even if the current supply runs out, there's a provision in the ban that allows damaged magazine bodies to be replaced with readily available replacement bodies. Anybody could simply buy a replacement body, and then buy the internal parts to make a new, high capacity magazine. This would be illegal, but there are no markings on these replacement bodies that would indicate that it was sold as a replacement. These newly manufactured illegal magazines would be indestinguishable from legal pre-ban magazines.

There's really no reason to be worried about a flood of uber-deadly weapons on the streets, because post-ban weapons are functionally identical to their pre-ban counterparts. The bottom line is that the assault weapons ban does nothing but give people a false sense of security.








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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. I'm sure they can't be converted easily, without a high degree
of skillful machining.

The point is, why would we ever want to make AW's legal so they can be purchased/stolen by any nutball who'll take out 20 or so citizens before he meets his maker?

There's no stopping a guy who can build his own machine gun from scratch, but that would leave 99%+ of the people without this capability.

I don't get the pro-gun crowd, I guess. I'm all for toughening the Federal laws for anyone caught selling/using machine guns. Yet, I often see the refrain, "enforce the existing laws". Yet you want to torpedo a common sense law like AWB?

Do you pro-AW people really think it's a great idea to turn this country into Iraq?
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. How are the weapons that are available
now, after the AWB, less easily convertible to full-auto than weapons that were available before the AWB?
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. The assault weapons ban has nothing to do with machine guns.
The assault weapons ban has nothing to do with machine guns.
The assault weapons ban has nothing to do with machine guns.
The assault weapons ban has nothing to do with machine guns.
The assault weapons ban has nothing to do with machine guns.
The assault weapons ban has nothing to do with machine guns.
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enfield collector Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. have you actually read the AWB? please can you tell
me how banning cosmetic features make us safe?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Too too funny...
You mean to tell us all these "pro gun democrats" creaming their jeans about what they'll buy if the ban sunsets, are doing so over "cosmetic features?"

Of course, the gun lobby itself showed the world what a steaming pantload this "cosmetic features" talking point was when they scuttled their own "immunity from liability" bill earlier this year...
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Zister Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Cosmetic Features
That is exactly what the AWB does. It does NOTHING to ban AK Variants and AR's or anything else as long as they dont have more than the allowed 'evil features'. The AR-15 has a detachable mag and a pistol grip so as long as they dont add the bayo lug and such, it perfectly legal to produce and sell. So what did this BAN do? Nothing.

You can go to any gun shop and find brand new AR's and AK variants for sale. So they dont have a bayo lug or folding stock its still the same rifle.

The AWB has nothing to do with Full Auto machine guns. That is something covered by other exsisting laws.

What i find troublesome is that the people jumping up and down about keeping the AWB have no idea what it really means.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. And that's why gun whackos all over the web
are beating their meat ove rthe otys they're going to buy if the ban sunsets...Ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ight...
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Zister Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. Yep thats right
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 07:06 PM by Zister
They want to buy the rifle the way it was originally sold to the law abiding public. If they want a adj stock or a barrel comp they may get it. Currently you are stuck with the 'plain jane' verions of those rifles.

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Gord Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
34. I suppose..
That I'm 'creaming' to buy stuff I could in 1993.

Whippee.. Some more freedom that we used to have. Good!
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Zister Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-04 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
16. Less that 1% of crimes
Less that 1% of crimes are commited with Assault Weapons. Heck, more people die each year from backyard pools or even high school sports than AW's.
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. It's actually closer to 3%...
...but still statistically insignificant.
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
29. What is stopping New Hampshire from banning "assault weapons"?
Why must they apply their own standards to the rest of the country?
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