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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 01:01 PM
Original message
How concerned are you about self defense?
Its my livelihood, to teach and to learn, but how important is it to you? How often do you consider your vulnerabilities and your options? I know the question is dependent on where you live, be it an urban or suburban lifestyle so, how wary are you?
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mark414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. not too worried
live in milwaukee in a not great but not awful neighborhood, some shit has happened, got jumped once and my wallet got stolen but i'm still not too concerned...shit happens, so it goes.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hardly at all....
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tech3149 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm not really that concerned
Having had to live and work in areas with high crime, I found the threat to be overstated. Presenting yourself with an appearance of confidence and self-assurance removes the bulk of the threat. I consider my main strength in self defense would be situational awareness. Knowing what's going on around you gives you the time to assess the situation and consider an appropriate response. I'm no fighter and avoid it at all cost, but when the threat is real I am single-minded in defending myself with whatever weapons are at my disposal.
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Sensible?
Oh my, I think it is! :)

All too often the answer to that question is some form of, well I havent had a problem so far, or, I can fight my way out of anything! Too many people are either over confident or just ingorant of the potential dangers we face every day.

It sounds like you have a better grasp on things than most. Its surprising how many people tend to demonstrate their ingorance or a hapless sense of insulation from violence despite their environment. Those are the people that are most difficult to teach and are most often victims.

Your eyes and your brain are your best defense.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. Nowhere near as much as I'm concerned about traffic safety
I drive on Southern California freeways almost every day.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. You should get combat pay.
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Holy smokes, and you are still alive?
I think the only thing more dangerous than rush hour in LA is a drunk dentist ;)
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. My previous vehicle was hit four times in its 17-year life
Declared a "total loss" twice by my insurance company. That's a really sucky deal.

I live in San Diego. It's not as bad as LA or the Bay Area but it's a lot worse than it used to be.
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Hope you had some good insurance.
I spent some time in San Diego myself, north county area around pendleton and beyond. I remember the 5 through Del Mar around 5pm....wow! That, and the 8 going east in the mornings when I was going to SDSU. I remember hoping mission valley would get flooded at some point so I could take my boat to class.

Hang in there ;)
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. Reasonably so.
I am trained on and keep a variety of arms about my person. These include:

1. Kershaw Ken Onion spring-assisted knife
2. Surefire G2Z light
3. Springfield XD subcompact in 9mm with 1 spare mag (21 rounds total)
4. Pepper spray (highly effective on dogs)
5. Cell phone for calling Police.
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
44. Are you extremely fearful?
Or do you harbor secret hopes that someday, some poor fool will make the mistake of attacking you?
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. secret hopes
Or do you harbor secret hopes that someday, some poor fool will make the mistake of attacking you?


Would that be such a bad thing, if one did have such hopes?


Mary
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. Par for the course, really....
Most of the RKBA "cause" is based on childish fantasy...

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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. secret weapon
Very cute, Mister Benchley. With you so adamant that you didn't need a gun, I was wondering what you might have up your sleeve...

Just out of curiosity, what's that from? Old issue of MAD?


Mary

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. A site parodying the sort of ads that really
used to run in comic books....
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #48
74. Yes, a desire to hurt people is a bad thing. /nt
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #44
51. I have a dangerous job.
Real estate. I foreclose upon and repossess homes as part of the job. When they can, the Police escort me, otherwise...I'm on my own. I also have a threat out upon my life, of course the "bad guy" lives 120 miles away, but he could still be here in 2 hours. Satisfied?

Oh, forgot one...I also carry those because I can. If some poor fool attacks me, he could very well end up very surprised. However, I will always withdraw if given the chance. By being constantly aware of my surroundings, I can avoid potentially dangerous situations by crossing the street, going into a business, or projecting confidence.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #7
49. 2. Surefire G2Z light
A weapon i would suggest everyone carry.
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gatlingforme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. as long as you have the handgun it can attach to.
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. The G2Z is a handheld.
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gatlingforme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. yeah, that is a good one thanks for the link.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
10. not
Not an iota, not a scintilla, not for a moment, not ever, not anywhere.

Never in my life have I been in any situation in which any need to defend myself could not have been avoided simply by avoiding the situation, and in any circumstances I can possibly imagine in which such a situation might arise, the only sane thing to do *would be* to avoid the situation.


I live in the core of a medium-large city (about 1 million population, metropolitan area). I live in one of the lowest-income, most racially diverse neighbourhoods in Canada. And I walk the streets (and take wads of money out of the ATM at the corner store) at whatever hour of the day or night I happen to be awake. When I'm home or at my office next door, I don't lock the doors ... unless I'm leaving the ground floor for an extended period, because somebody did, twice (the same person), walk into my house and take my purse while I was upstairs, a couple of years ago. He tried it on at my office one of those same days, back when it was a vacant apt and my dad was staying there while visiting, and when my dad heard the door and the would-be burglar heard my dad's voice, the would-be burglar became a pedestrian half a block away in very short order. The cops did catch him later and connect him to my burglaries, since he was the one who'd been wandering the neighbourhood lifting things, and nobody imagined that I might have needed to defend myself against him. The cop who attended the first burglary was somewhat concerned, on my behalf, about me having expensive cameras and stuff just lying around the living room, but the idea that my safety might have been in danger just didn't come into the conversation.

I know that not everywhere on earth is like where I am. But I'd be hard pressed to believe that most people living in the thousands of ordinary middle-class neighbourhoods in the US are at any greater risk of personal injury at the hands of strangers than I am living in my crappy, hooker-ridden, disorderly neighbourhood in Canada, for very sure.

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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. That is the first tenant of self defense
Avoiding the situation is the easy and smart thing to do, if you can spot the situation. But what if the situation finds you. Like walking to your car as you do every day. That is not necessarily a situation you would avoid, but it might be an opportunity for a criminal.

I agree, most people can live a fairly blissful existence without the need to worry about their safety. Unfortunately, some of us will become statistics at some point. That is the eye opener that most people care not to think about. Maybe I hear too many stories but, I still worry from time to time, especially about my wife and sisters.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. nope; like I said: not
Avoiding the situation is the easy and smart thing to do, if you can spot the situation. But what if the situation finds you. Like walking to your car as you do every day. That is not necessarily a situation you would avoid, but it might be an opportunity for a criminal.

Nope. It wouldn't be.

I mean, it might be. On the 32nd of August, under a blue moon, when the faeries are dancing -- or on some similarly next-to-nonexistent occasion.

There's an equally remote possibility that an earthquake may destroy my house. I mean, every once in a while, we do get tremors here. Who knows?

But would I consider (a) engaging in some behaviour/activity, to ward off earthquake damage that would restrict my everyday behaviour/activities in ways I disliked and that were waaaay out of proportion to any harm ever likely to be averted, or (b) engaging in some other behaviour/activity that was waaaay more likely to cause harm to myself or someone else than the harm feared was ever likely to occur?

Nope. I just don't organize my life around the possibility of needing either earthquake-resistence or self-defence. There's a 99.999999999999% chance that if I did so I'd just have wasted my life, and accomplished nothing more.

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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I hope you never need it

I dont want to be pessimistic but, it is exactly people like you, and me, who make up the statistics. I hear at least 10 new stories a month about someone who never imagined something would happen to them. Its my business so I am exposed to the horror stories frequently. Not unlike cops who deal with gun violence on a daily basis.

I wouldnt advise engaging in any behavior that restricted your life but, you should at least acknowledge that if you do become a victim, the harm you might endure will likely be very much in proportion to the common sense self defense behaviors that you practice every day. The less self defense you practice, the greater the likelihood of having a life threatening, or life changing experience. Nor would I encourage you to engage in any behavior that would cause harm to yourself. That isnt self defense.

Do you organize your life around car, health, or life insurance? I know I have wasted thousands of dollars on car insurance and have only needed it once. But, I feel better knowing its there. I probably would not sleep at night if I didnt have health insurance. Even with the knowledge that I probably wont need or use it for anything major for 20+ years. Hopefully :)
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. well, I'm sure you do
In point of fact (and I will say, again, as I do every time somebody new drops by and needs the facts before s/he starts trying to teach his/her grandmother to suck eggs), I am a survivor of a violent and extremely threatening crime. I was abducted, sexually assaulted and nearly killed; I avoided being killed by using my wits and taking the one opportunity I was going to have to escape.

Could I have avoided this situation? Yup. I could have decided not to go visit my parents in another city, since the only way I could afford to do so was to hitchhike.

I wasn't just behaving like a random idiot, nonetheless. This was 30 years ago, when hithchiking was a very common method of transportation in the part of southern Ontario where I lived, and of course all over the western world. I had hitchiked across half of Canada and back. I had hitchhiked to school almost daily for several years. I was familiar with signs of problematic situations. I was, in fact, hitchhiking with a male partner that day ... I just had the extreme bad fortune to be picked up by a serial assailant who couldn't tell the boys from the girls these days (as he remarked, but I didn't pick up on until much later), someone who wasn't just trying his luck, but was looking for victims, and who had the extreme good fortune to find one whose bothersome companion was only going as far as Toronto while she was going on past. I was uncomfortable and should have trusted my instinct and got out when my companion did, rather than taking his advice that it was good ride and staying with it.

The situation could have been avoided, at several points. Once I was in it, self-defence was not an option: I was in a locked car with closed windows and no interior door handles, on back roads and ultimately in a secluded location. I did resist with force, against both the car windows and the assailant, I did scream and honk the horn to try to get attention; I was unsuccessful and I then switched from brawn to brain, because that gave me time and avoided the risk that I would lose the brawn contest, as I had already almost done when he choked me as I was resisting.

If I had organized my entire life to avoid hitchhiking, I might never have gone to university: that may be stretching a point, but I was poor, and I literally couldn't afford the bus fare to campus, or housing nearer campus. (Riding a bike in a southern Ontario winter is a drag, but one year I did do it, when I lived closer to campus.) I would never have seen Newfoundland, or spent a magical day on acid in the Laurentian mountains. I would never have met quite a few interesting people. I would not have seen the Rolling Stones, in two cities where I didn't live, twice in one weekend. I would very probably have had a much more boring life.

Life is risk. We can minimize it, but everything we do to minimize risk carries its own costs. I'm not willing to give up too much to attempt to eliminate risk, although I certainly try to avoid acts of random idiocy; and I'm very definitely not about to take any "self-defence" measures that increase the risk of harm to both myself and others, which is exactly what involving firearms (that being what we're all really talking about) in my life is.

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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. Sounds fishy
Youve been raped and nearly killed, but you never think about self defense? If so, you are probably the only rape victim that doesnt. We have about a dozen rape victims in our adult class, most of them are still in counseling. We have a mother and daughter who walked in last month and signed up, both had been raped, taped in duct tape, beaten with a hammer and left for dead. That was the second time the mother had been assaulted. They are no longer so cavalier about their safety.

Despite your fervent denial of your responsibility in the matter, I wont comment too much on the actions that put in that situation. I think you recognize where you went wrong. Blame it on the ignorance of youth.

Im frustrated to hear yet another victim speaking about surviving by her/his wits, as most end up dead. Naturally, I only hear survival stories. We never hear about victims whose wits failed them. Unfortunately, the majority of victims who have placed themselves in such a situation have used neither wits nor wisdom. You were fortunate, not wise.

I know Im being harsh but you sound too smart to be so misguided. Correct me if I am wrong but it sounds as if you would not have changed your behavior even had you known how dangerous it was?

Im not talking about the firearms issue, just self defense.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. I beg your pardon??
Edited on Mon Jul-26-04 04:11 PM by iverglas


"Sounds fishy"?

Would you like me to tell you what you sound like? Can you think of a word or two to describe someone who asserts that someone else is not telling the truth, when s/he has no basis whatsoever for asserting such a thing? I sure can.

I'm sick to death of listening to anyone else's opinion about MY EXPERIENCE, MY LIFE, WOMEN'S EXPERIENCES AND WOMEN'S LIVES. And that includes you.

We have a mother and daughter who walked in last month and signed up, both had been raped, taped in duct tape, beaten with a hammer and left for dead. That was the second time the mother had been assaulted. They are no longer so cavalier about their safety."

And exactly what the fuck is THAT supposed to mean: "so cavalier about their safety"? Did this mother-daughter team make a habit of inviting men carrying duct tape and hammers into their home or something?

It's a rare bloody person who gets through life without being assaulted, for dawg's sake. THAT'S LIFE. And, as I recently said, anyone who thinks that s/he can "decide" that it isn't going to happen to him/her falls pretty squarely within the definition of paranoid.

Despite your fervent denial of your responsibility in the matter, I wont comment too much on the actions that put in that situation. I think you recognize where you went wrong. Blame it on the ignorance of youth.

And precisely because of your desperate attempt, for what reason I have no clue, to pretend that I said something I did not say, I'll tell you exactly what I think of such tricks. They're dishonest and despicable.

If you're wanting to claim that this description doesn't apply to what you said, quoted above, you'll be needing to explain how what I said:

The situation could have been avoided,
at several points.


can be interpreted as a "fervent denial of <my> responsibility in the matter". You'll really, really be needing to do that.

Im frustrated to hear yet another victim speaking about surviving by her/his wits, as most end up dead. Naturally, I only hear survival stories. We never hear about victims whose wits failed them.

What utter nonsense is this? Most victims of crimes, even violent crimes, "end up dead"? Have you no regard for the truth?

You were fortunate, not wise.

I did not deny being fortunate; in point of fact, I SAID:

I avoided being killed by using my wits
and taking the one opportunity I was going
to have to escape.


And I did not claim to have been wise; very unwise people are entirely capable of having and using their wits.

Utter nonsense. You should consider giving up before your foot is so far down your throat it's exiting by the same route your words appear to be taking.

I know Im being harsh but you sound too smart to be so misguided. Correct me if I am wrong but it sounds as if you would not have changed your behavior even had you known how dangerous it was?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you just make another nonsensical statement for which you didn't have a glimmer of the beginning of a foundation?


I'm under the impression that I'm talking to yet someone else who has an agenda to advance and is perfectly willing to do it at others' expense.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm afraid that there isn't much that will persuade me that training in "self-defence" behaviours/activities is any substitute for psychotherapy for victims of violent offences -- either for their present peace of mind or for their and others' future safety -- or that anyone offering "self-defence" as a way of dealing with past victimization and averting future victimization has his/her subjects' (or the world's) best interests at heart.


(incorrect verb/subject agreement fixed on edit)

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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Dont get me wrong

I didnt mean to imply that you were being dishonest. I apologize if that is how I came across.

Nevertheless, Im quite sure I have had more contact with rape/assault victims than you. The point I was trying to make is that a victim's refusal to acknowledge the role of self defense in their experience is either a sign of denial or repressed feelings. Refusing to come to terms with an assault is more destructive than the assault itself. No, Im not a psychiatrist, but I play one on tv :) Actually, we encourage participants to attend crisis counseling. We have been armed with a few talking points to help engage our participants in discussing their personal safety concerns and to help get them into a counseling session at some point. The fact that you are sick to death of listening to people speak to your experience is a warning sign, but I digress.

"And exactly what the fuck is THAT supposed to mean: "so cavalier about their safety"? Did this mother-daughter team make a habit of inviting men carrying duct tape and hammers into their home or something?"

That means, they too were very confident in their safety, until it happened again. The mother was visiting her daughter at her fiancee's home when he was away. They neither invited the attack, nor put themselves at undue risk.

"It's a rare bloody person who gets through life without being assaulted, for dawg's sake. THAT'S LIFE. And, as I recently said, anyone who thinks that s/he can "decide" that it isn't going to happen to him/her falls pretty squarely within the definition of paranoid."

Its not about being consumed by self defense or running from past experiences or throwing your hands up in defeat or denial. You are not helpless, but some need to be reminded of that.

"The situation could have been avoided, at several points"

I was addressing your flippant attitude toward hitchhiking in general and your assertion that at one point, self defense was no longer viable.

"What utter nonsense is this? Most victims of crimes, even violent crimes, "end up dead"? Have you no regard for the truth?"

Indeed I do. Perhaps I should have said many victims end up dead?

"Utter nonsense. You should consider giving up before your foot is so far down your throat it's exiting by the same route your words appear to be taking."

Im to assume this is a little humor to break the tension ;)

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you just make another nonsensical statement for which you didn't have a glimmer of the beginning of a foundation?"

The foundation you request is in your last 2 paragraphs:

"If I had organized my entire life to avoid hitchhiking, I might never have gone to university: that may be stretching a point, but I was poor, and I literally couldn't afford the bus fare to campus, or housing nearer campus. (Riding a bike in a southern Ontario winter is a drag, but one year I did do it, when I lived closer to campus.) I would never have seen Newfoundland, or spent a magical day on acid in the Laurentian mountains. I would never have met quite a few interesting people. I would not have seen the Rolling Stones, in two cities where I didn't live, twice in one weekend. I would very probably have had a much more boring life.

Life is risk. We can minimize it, but everything we do to minimize risk carries its own costs. I'm not willing to give up too much to attempt to eliminate risk, although I certainly try to avoid acts of random idiocy; and I'm very definitely not about to take any "self-defence" measures that increase the risk of harm to both myself and others, which is exactly what involving firearms (that being what we're all really talking about) in my life is."


That sounds like, if you had it to do over again, you would continue hitchhiking, the dangerous behavior I mentioned, because you are not willing to give up too much.

"I'm under the impression that I'm talking to yet someone else who has an agenda to advance and is perfectly willing to do it at others' expense."

Well I certainly do have an agenda, but Im not sure if I have been doing it at anyone's expense. I just commented on your assault since I have quite a bit of experience in straight talking to rape/assault victims.

"Correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm afraid that there isn't much that will persuade me that training in "self-defence" behaviours/activities are any substitute for psychotherapy for victims of violent offences -- either for their present peace of mind or for their and others' future safety -- or that anyone offering "self-defence" as a way of dealing with past victimization and averting future victimization has his/her subjects' (or the world's) best interests at heart."

Im not sure you have an adequate understanding of what self defense is. Lets start with the goal of victim or crisis counseling sessions. One of the most important aspects is making sure the victim does not feel powerless. Leading a normal life and not fearing for their safety is usually foremost on the agenda. Any way of increasing self confidence is healthy. Tactical self defense is part of that. Situational awareness is 90% of the battle, but until victims overcome the fear of being helpless and hapless, they are still victims.

To suggest I dont have victims' best interest at heart is, as you said, dishonest and despicable. Empowering victims is my job and I am very good at it. Im quite sure I have touched a nerve with you. My intention is not to get under your skin, only to help.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. time for you to stop
Nevertheless, Im quite sure I have had more contact with rape/assault victims than you.

And I'm quite sure you haven't. Howzat?

How many years have you spent representing victims of torture and assault, including sexual assault, from all over the globe? (Just for instance, how many of your clients had their husbands abducted by the military, and won't "admit" to you, or themselves, that they were the victim of multiple rapes by the men who took away their husbands, because to do so would leave them no option but to drink Drano as their friends in the same situation did?) That will be 13 years, in my case. How many medico-legal programs to assist such people have you assisted in setting up? How many people have you taught and trained to provide legal representation for such people? And really, that's just part of the formal, professional tip of my own personal victim-contact iceberg.

What strange compulsion is it that some people feel to speak to other people as if they were morons? Might the fact that I said that the incident I described happened 30 years ago have been your first clue to the probability that I'm not really a wet-behind-the-ears undergraduate of some sort?

The point I was trying to make is that a victim's refusal to acknowledge the role of self defense in their experience is either a sign of denial or repressed feelings. Refusing to come to terms with an assault is more destructive than the assault itself. No, Im not a psychiatrist, but I play one on tv

And you evidently do it very badly. My advice would be that you stop doing it at all, and simply do what you're paid to do, which is apparently to teach what you call self-defence.

I pay someone $130 an hour for assistance in "coming to terms with" the aftermath of a series of traumatic experiences at intervals over many years, up to and including last year. (Hmm, I wonder ... how would your "self-defence" training have enabled me to avoid 3 months of psychological abuse at the hands of the staff, while literally tied to a bed in the children's ward of a religious hospital in 1960, at the age of eight? SHIT HAPPENS.) He, the recipient of my cheques, has a Ph.D. and about 40 years in professional practice.

I ACKNOWLEDGE the role that "self-defence" played in the incident I spoke of. I did ignore small warning signs, of the sort that had never before indicated real danger, that I would better have paid more attention to; and ultimately, nonetheless, I SAVED MY LIFE, by remaining alert and clear-headed and taking action. Exactly what more do you want? I can't even decipher what you mean by "a victim's refusal to acknowledge the role of self defense in their experience", for pity's sake, but I think I've covered all possible bases.

The fact that you are sick to death of listening to people speak to your experience is a warning sign, but I digress.

The fact that you would say such a thing is more than a warning sign. It's a great big billboard emblazoned with the words I'm totally ignorant of what I'm talking about, but that isn't going to stop me from making appallingly incivil and unethical comments to and about strangers. I mean, I assume that you're given some instruction in the ethics of dealing with individuals whom you believe may have a need for psychotherapy, and I would think that you might therefore have been quite aware of how unethical it was to say what you said.

What I'm sick to death of is people attempting to use my experience, MY LIFE, to advance their own agenda. Just in case that wasn't perfectly clear. People are not objects, and I am not a means to anyone else's end. And by the way -- your attempt to use me and my experience to advance your agenda, as evidenced in that very statement of yours, also demonstrates your utter lack of sensitivity to individuals who do have post-traumatic symptoms -- you know, like the ones you work with -- since heightened sensitivity to intrusions on "self" are precisely one of those symptoms, and a considerate person in your position does not act to trigger the feeling of threat-to-self in people with such symptoms intentionally, and ensures that s/he is sufficiently knowledgeable to avoid doing it through ignorance.

Me, I don't take it personally. I know you're no threat to my self, and I don't perceive you as any such thing. My objection is philosophical and ideological -- your intrusion on my self is water off my own back, but others are not as aware and equipped to deal with such intrusions; and I will not tolerate anyone being objectified, as a means to an end, on principle.

The foundation you request is in your last 2 paragraphs: ... . That sounds like, if you had it to do over again, you would continue hitchhiking, the dangerous behavior I mentioned, because you are not willing to give up too much.

To begin with, you have completely failed to address my actual question, which was what foundation you had for alleging <my> fervent denial of <my> responsibility in the matter. Alluding to my refusal to restrict my life unduly out of fear of something happening to me and calling it a "fervent denial of ... responsibility in the matter" is simple nonsense. Well, not all that simple; kinda complexly distasteful, actually.

I was responsible, to a large extent, for the situation I was in: my statement that The situation could have been avoided, at several points ... well, I dunno; were you actually implying that you thought I was saying it could have been avoided by someone else?? Honestly, I do hope not. I was, of course, NOT responsible for the violence that was committed against me.

The fact that I may CHOOSE to run risks that others choose to avoid CANNOT be interpreted as a "fervent denial of responsibility". It is plainly EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. Jesus H fucking christ on a stick. I said I'm not willing to give up too much to attempt to eliminate risk -- who the hell did you think I was assigning responsibility, for the consequences of what I said *I* was or was not willing to do, to??

So it sounds like, as I've really already made perfectly clear, you have no basis for saying what you're saying and yet you're going to keep saying it anyway.

The fact is, I did not hitchhike two yards in my life, after that incident. A decent and intelligent person might have actually asked the question, instead of pretending to be able to intuit it from something said that had nothing to do with the question. And in fact, I regard my subsequent non-hitchhiking as an overreaction to what happened to me, a voluntary restriction on my life that was unnecessary in real terms, but necessary for my peace of mind.

If I had it to do over again, I would have continued hitchhiking? If the incident had never happened? Yeah, of course I would have. Probably not for very long, simply because by 1974 the world had changed and the 60s were over and the people who had used to pick up hitchhikers had got jobs, I suppose, and the rides were damned boring and annoying for the most part. But in actual point of fact, I do not know of a single incident in my lifetime, in my province, in which a hitchhiker was killed by a ride, so I guess the risk just wasn't what you seem to think it was. And once again: your notion of what the risk was, your assertion that I was engaged in "dangerous behavior", and your assessment of my assessment of that risk, is just the uninformed opinion of a person who, I'm quite sure, wasn't even born at the time and has never set foot in the part of the world we're talking about.

But if you had it to do over again, you would continue hitchhiking -- what the fuck does *that* mean? How likely is it that I would still be hitchhiking, no matter what had or hadn't happened? Good grief.

Situational awareness is 90% of the battle, but until victims overcome the fear of being helpless and hapless, they are still victims.

I have never had any fear of being helpless or hapless, either before or after any of the events in which I was a victim. And yet ... that seems to be my problem, per you.

Prospective fear is indeed a problem. At one women's safety public meeting I participated in, back in the days when you were presumably in diapers (and after the incident I have spoken of), what was being said by various women crystalized in my mind thus:

If I go out on the streets at night, there may be a man near me.
If a man is near me, he may follow me.
If a man follows me, he may speak to me.
If a man speaks to me, he may touch me.
If a man touches me, he may rape me.
If a man rapes me, he may kill me.
Ergo, I must not go out on the streets at night.

That is the internalization of the threat that women have lived under throughout human history, the fear that is instilled in women to keep us compliant and fearful and dependent on men for protection ... from men.

The only way to break it is to say:

If I go out on the streets at night, there may be a man near me.
SO WHAT?

Unless THAT is part of this "situational awareness" -- that 99% of the situations we are in, in our lifetimes, do NOT contain threats to our safety -- then the fear is simply being reinforced. I will not live in fear, and I see no reason for any other woman to live in fear.

But exacerbated prospective fear is not the only problem caused by traumatic, frightening experiences. The conditioned response of fear to situations is at least as problematic -- the perception that something is a threat, with the corresponding fight-or-flight response that is prompted more frequently in a person with that conditioned response. I know, because I'm one of them. People with post-traumatic stress don't "over-react" to threats: they "over-perceive" things as threats, and react perfectly normally to the level of threat they perceive.

And that makes them a danger to themselves and others in many situations. When it is dealt with by the "never again" decision -- nobody's gonna hurt me again, and I have an unrealistic, exaggerated sense of when I am likely to be hurt -- the victim's quality of life is not enhanced. S/he is constantly on guard for perceived threats, and constantly suffering that conditioned fear response to situations. That is not pleasant, for the individual or anyone else in the vicinity -- and exaggerated fear is certainly not helpful, and in fact counter-productive, in dealing with situations in which genuine threats are present.

"Never again" is a bandaid over an open wound, and one too often sold by the same people selling the ideology and objects that people think will enable them to carry out this "decision" never to be victims again.

So whether it's ignorance or ideology that is the driving motivation, I do not trust anyone who enables, let alone promotes, that response. Especially when the someone is busy demonstrating how much more important the ideology is to him/her than things like ethics and facts.

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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #45
64. Why?
Oh, Im quite sure I have!....Howsthat??????.

I havent spent any time representing anyone, that is not what I do. I have however, spent nearly 25 years teaching martial arts. The last 9 years have been spent exclusively in personal defense. You run across how many, 5 victims a month? And that is a stretch. Between 4 dojos and the community center, I see at least 100 a year, and Im not assisting them in legal matters, Im helping them overcome their experience, directly!

"What strange compulsion is it that some people feel to speak to other people as if they were morons? Might the fact that I said that the incident I described happened 30 years ago have been your first clue to the probability that I'm not really a wet-behind-the-ears undergraduate of some sort?"

The strange compulsion you mentioned belongs squarely on your shoulders. I am not wet behind the ears or new at my business either. For you to presume that I am ignorant or that I will allow you to "pull rank" on me, is ludicrous. Ive been in the trenches too you know.

"And you evidently do it very badly. My advice would be that you stop doing it at all, and simply do what you're paid to do, which is apparently to teach what you call self-defence."

What I call self defense? Who is talking down to who? Just because you dont understand it, or are afraid of it, does not entitle you to ridicule it.

"I pay someone $130 an hour for assistance in "coming to terms with" the aftermath of a series of traumatic experiences at intervals over many years, up to and including last year. (Hmm, I wonder ... how would your "self-defence" training have enabled me to avoid 3 months of psychological abuse at the hands of the staff, while literally tied to a bed in the children's ward of a religious hospital in 1960, at the age of eight? SHIT HAPPENS.) He, the recipient of my cheques, has a Ph.D. and about 40 years in professional practice."

Im glad you asked. What I can teach, if you were willing/able to accept it, is that your bad experience in the past does not condemn you to a future of fear. Im glad you are in counseling, I only wish empowerment was part of it.

"I ACKNOWLEDGE the role that "self-defence" played in the incident I spoke of. I did ignore small warning signs, of the sort that had never before indicated real danger, that I would better have paid more attention to; and ultimately, nonetheless, I SAVED MY LIFE, by remaining alert and clear-headed and taking action. Exactly what more do you want? I can't even decipher what you mean by "a victim's refusal to acknowledge the role of self defense in their experience", for pity's sake, but I think I've covered all possible bases."

What you acknowledged was that you survived by your wits and that self defense at one point was not feasible. I disagree on both counts.

"The fact that you would say such a thing is more than a warning sign. It's a great big billboard emblazoned with the words I'm totally ignorant of what I'm talking about, but that isn't going to stop me from making appallingly incivil and unethical comments to and about strangers. I mean, I assume that you're given some instruction in the ethics of dealing with individuals whom you believe may have a need for psychotherapy, and I would think that you might therefore have been quite aware of how unethical it was to say what you said."

If I understand you correctly, you may speak about your experience and use that as a position of authority. Anyone who does not agree with your position is incivil and unethical. Do I have that about right? I will rephrase it again. Your reluctance to allow others who may have something valuable to contribue, to comment on your experience, is probably not healthy given the fact that you share that experience so readily in an open forum. You can pull rank if you want, just dont be defensive if others dont buy into it.

"What I'm sick to death of is people attempting to use my experience, MY LIFE, to advance their own agenda. Just in case that wasn't perfectly clear. People are not objects, and I am not a means to anyone else's end. And by the way -- your attempt to use me and my experience to advance your agenda, as evidenced in that very statement of yours, also demonstrates your utter lack of sensitivity to individuals who do have post-traumatic symptoms -- you know, like the ones you work with -- since heightened sensitivity to intrusions on "self" are precisely one of those symptoms, and a considerate person in your position does not act to trigger the feeling of threat-to-self in people with such symptoms intentionally, and ensures that s/he is sufficiently knowledgeable to avoid doing it through ignorance."

You couldnt be more wrong. I do indeed act to trigger threatening feelings. How did you suppose we overcame those fears if we did not invoke them?

"Me, I don't take it personally. I know you're no threat to my self, and I don't perceive you as any such thing. My objection is philosophical and ideological -- your intrusion on my self is water off my own back, but others are not as aware and equipped to deal with such intrusions; and I will not tolerate anyone being objectified, as a means to an end, on principle."

Of course Im not a threat personally, but I do think you have taken my comments to heart and that is a good thing. I made no intrusion at all. You offered your experience and I responded as I always do, directly. I apologize if that makes you uncomfortable but I think that discomfort speaks to some underlying issue.

"I was responsible, to a large extent, for the situation I was in: my statement that The situation could have been avoided, at several points ... well, I dunno; were you actually implying that you thought I was saying it could have been avoided by someone else?? Honestly, I do hope not. I was, of course, NOT responsible for the violence that was committed against me."

Im not even saying you were entirely responsible for the situation, only trying to get you to think about the attitudes you hold now and the decisions you make today versus then.

Case in point:

"The fact that I may CHOOSE to run risks that others choose to avoid CANNOT be interpreted as a "fervent denial of responsibility". It is plainly EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. Jesus H fucking christ on a stick. I said I'm not willing to give up too much to attempt to eliminate risk -- who the hell did you think I was assigning responsibility, for the consequences of what I said *I* was or was not willing to do, to??"

Question, which would be smarter and probably cheaper, counseling or self defense? Surely you recognize that by not altering your behavior you place yourself at much greater risk. Im not being sarcastic but, do you think years of counseling are just the price you have to pay for your carefree attitudes toward personal safety?

"The fact is, I did not hitchhike two yards in my life, after that incident. A decent and intelligent person might have actually asked the question, instead of pretending to be able to intuit it from something said that had nothing to do with the question. And in fact, I regard my subsequent non-hitchhiking as an overreaction to what happened to me, a voluntary restriction on my life that was unnecessary in real terms, but necessary for my peace of mind."

There was no intuition involved. Nevertheless, you mentioned that youre not willing to give up too much to attempt to eliminate risk. This sounds like a compromise. The question is, based on your past experiences and decisions, and lack of self defense skills, how comfortable are you with that decision and what price are you willing to pay?

"But in actual point of fact, I do not know of a single incident in my lifetime, in my province, in which a hitchhiker was killed by a ride, so I guess the risk just wasn't what you seem to think it was. And once again: your notion of what the risk was, your assertion that I was engaged in "dangerous behavior", and your assessment of my assessment of that risk, is just the uninformed opinion of a person who, I'm quite sure, wasn't even born at the time and has never set foot in the part of the world we're talking about."

So someone must be killed for it to be a self defense situation? I bet you dont really believe that. Im sure I have a reasonably good understanding of the risk and Im hardly uninformed in these matters. But yes, I have been to Alberta, and I will be 46 in December. Does that qualify me to speak to you? I dont like anyone pulling rank on me.

"But if you had it to do over again, you would continue hitchhiking -- what the fuck does *that* mean? How likely is it that I would still be hitchhiking, no matter what had or hadn't happened? Good grief."

Patterns of behavior repeat. I dont know how likely it is that you will do one thing or the other, hence the comment.

"I have never had any fear of being helpless or hapless, either before or after any of the events in which I was a victim. And yet ... that seems to be my problem, per you."

You are the only person on earth who hasnt, congratulations. Might I suggest a new therapist? Honestly, if he or she is not pushing your buttons and making you confront those feelings, is it going to be effective?

"Prospective fear is indeed a problem. At one women's safety public meeting I participated in, back in the days when you were presumably in diapers (and after the incident I have spoken of), what was being said by various women crystalized in my mind thus:

If I go out on the streets at night, there may be a man near me.
If a man is near me, he may follow me.
If a man follows me, he may speak to me.
If a man speaks to me, he may touch me.
If a man touches me, he may rape me.
If a man rapes me, he may kill me.
Ergo, I must not go out on the streets at night.

That is the internalization of the threat that women have lived under throughout human history, the fear that is instilled in women to keep us compliant and fearful and dependent on men for protection ... from men."

Its unfortunate you were party to such a meeting. We strive to produce confidence in oneself, not in others. And this goes way beyond male female issues. Self defense is a skill, not a gender issue.

"The only way to break it is to say:

If I go out on the streets at night, there may be a man near me.
SO WHAT?

Unless THAT is part of this "situational awareness" -- that 99% of the situations we are in, in our lifetimes, do NOT contain threats to our safety -- then the fear is simply being reinforced. I will not live in fear, and I see no reason for any other woman to live in fear."

So what means, you have decisions to make. Will they be the right ones, or the wrong ones? Do you value education as a means to living a better life? Do you believe you have something to learn, or have you completed your education in life? Do you believe there may be others out there with more experience in these matters than you? Do you feel susceptible to brainwashing or are do you think you are able to discern good information from bad, practical from theoretical?


".....So whether it's ignorance or ideology that is the driving motivation, I do not trust anyone who enables, let alone promotes, that response. Especially when the someone is busy demonstrating how much more important the ideology is to him/her than things like ethics and facts."

Its unfortunate that you reject self defense based on a fear that something bad will happen should you learn it. Its also surprising, considering that you dont let fear disuade you from your other behaviors.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. let me make it perfectly clear
I have no intention of listing my qualifications and experience in working with victims for you. I don't give a shit whether you know what they are or believe what they are, let alone understand what they are. The plain fact is that I am qualified to talk about these matters, and you're a "self-defence" instructor.

What I can teach, if you were willing/able to accept it, is that your bad experience in the past does not condemn you to a future of fear.

And what I have told you so plainly that a slug would have heard and comprehended it is that there is no fear in my past, my present or my future. I am not your straw punching bag, my chum.

Im glad you are in counseling, I only wish empowerment was part of it.

I'm not in counselling, and I don't know what would have given you the idea that I am. I pay a psychologist for psychotherapeutic services. I am not in need of "counselling", thank you very much, and I know the difference between the two things.

What you acknowledged was that you survived by your wits and that self defense at one point was not feasible. I disagree on both counts.

And I certainly don't pay for, or even accept gratis, the services of people with axes to grind and apparently claiming to have crystal balls with which to see my past, in addition to reading my mind.

If I understand you correctly, you may speak about your experience and use that as a position of authority. Anyone who does not agree with your position is incivil and unethical. Do I have that about right?

Gosh, you ... apparently ... didn't understand me at all (I take expressions/evidence of incomprehension with a grain of salt in these circumstances), and you don't have anything right. Quelle surprise.

Anyone who is utterly unqualified to assess anyone else's problems of any kind (that would be you) who purports to do so, in public, in addressing a total stranger, when that purported assessment -- The fact that you are sick to death of listening to people speak to your experience is a warning sign, but I digress -- is in reality not merely a complete misrepresentation of what I said, but also a plain distasteful personal comment concerning myself -- and who simultaneously claims to be employed in a capacity in which he influences individuals with the problems he claims to be perceiving in the individual whom he is addressing -- is utterly devoid of the ethics that are required on the part of people who actually do such work.

Question, which would be smarter and probably cheaper, counseling or self defense? Surely you recognize that by not altering your behavior you place yourself at much greater risk. Im not being sarcastic but, do you think years of counseling are just the price you have to pay for your carefree attitudes toward personal safety?

Why am I surprised that you actually are NOT paid to do this?

I don't think I noticed you explaining how "self-defence" would have protected the 8-year-old me from the terrorist nuns, and how "self-defence" courses at this point in my life would address the conditioned responses generated by that experience, and others that had absolutely bugger all to do with risk-taking behaviours, and in which self-defence was not an issue because THERE WAS NO DANGER IN THE SITUATION, there was simply a situation that prompted a CONDITIONED fear response in me.

I mean, what am I paying you for, anyhow? That *is* what I'm paying the psychologist for, you see. Self-defence, and self-defence instructors, simply are no cure for my particular symptoms of post-traumatic stress - symptoms that are common to most trauma victims and have nothing to do with the objectively scary nature of the world, or with the possession or lack of self-defence skills, either at the time of the trauma or at any subsequent time.

It's perfectly clear, despite the smokescreen of words, that you are a victim-blamer. That makes you part of the problem, buddy, not any part of the solution.

So someone must be killed for it to be a self defense situation? I bet you dont really believe that.

I'm sorry, but my universal translator just doesn't seem to be able to make sense of whatever strange dialect you're speaking. I don't make a habit of either believing or disbelieving sing-song nonsense masquerading as something I said.

You couldnt be more wrong. I do indeed act to trigger threatening feelings. How did you suppose we overcame those fears if we did not invoke them?

And you couldn't be more plainly ignorant. Do you actually think that you are talking about what I am talking about, or that you can fool me into thinking you have a clue?

There was no intuition involved. Nevertheless, you mentioned that youre not willing to give up too much to attempt to eliminate risk. This sounds like a compromise. The question is, based on your past experiences and decisions, and lack of self defense skills, how comfortable are you with that decision and what price are you willing to pay?

The real question here, it seems to me, is what fucking business of yours any of this is?

You asked a question at the top of the thread. I answered it. I am not at risk in any situation I encounter in my daily life, and I CHOOSE not to live my life as if I am. Bingo, and I couldn't have been clearer in the first place than I was, and your "opinion" of what risk I may be at, and what I oughta be doing about this chimerical risk, is worth about as much as I'm paying for it. Less, I'd say; I should be getting a store credit for having to listen to it.

You then chose to embark on a lengthy, and monstrously uninformed and presumptuous, and mainly unintelligible, dissertation about the things of which you are utterly ignorant, in your campaign to persuade ... well, someone, I guess ... of all the lurking dangers in the world, and of her own responsibility for anything dreadful that does happen to her. And as I sit here sniggering at the transparency of your efforts, you probably think I'm "angry".

You are the only person on earth who hasnt, congratulations. Might I suggest a new therapist?

I'd suggest that you actually learn something about what you're speaking of, but I know exactly how likely that is to happen. Doing so would create a conflict between your obvious goals and the truth that you might not be able to rationalize away. If you ask google for ptsd hypervigilance, you might get a bit of a clue. Hypervigilance is NOT the same as prospective fear, and you plainly have no idea what hypervigilance is, what causes it, or how to address it. A hint: it is *not* by "pushing buttons". And the conditioned fear response is precisely the PROBLEM that your "treatment" is undoubtedly in many cases EXACERBATING.

Its unfortunate you were party to such a meeting. We strive to produce confidence in oneself, not in others.

What the fuck are you talking about?? Is it too much to ask that if you are going to quote all these passages of what I have said, you make some effort to pay attention to what I did in fact say? Are you actually purporting to have understood what I said as *me* concluding that "I must not go out on the streets at night"?? I was reporting what I observed, as I think I made absolutely crystal clear. *Not* what *I* think or feel, as I think I have also made absolutely crystal clear. And I simply have no idea how "confidence in others" even enters into this scenario.

And what is plain to me is that YOU are the one reinforcing the "I must not go out on the streets at night" mentality.

So what means, you have decisions to make. Will they be the right ones, or the wrong ones? Do you value education as a means to living a better life? Do you believe you have something to learn, or have you completed your education in life? Do you believe there may be others out there with more experience in these matters than you?

Hmm. Let's simplify that question. Do I, with university degrees in philosophy, literature, political science and law, and the study of the various other subjects that accompanied those degrees; training/work experience in forensic psychiatry, criminology, teaching and political/social organizing; and decades of working with disadvantaged and frequently victimized individuals and groups in our society and assisting them in asserting and exercising their rights, think I have anything to learn from you? I think I'll have to say "no".

Do you feel susceptible to brainwashing or are do you think you are able to discern good information from bad, practical from theoretical?

Do I think that your agenda could be any plainer at this point? Hmm. No, I just don't think so.

There was no intuition involved. Nevertheless, you mentioned that youre not willing to give up too much to attempt to eliminate risk.

You might occasionally, when cutting and pasting, in addition to paying attention to what it is that you've quoted, try not to segregate it from the context that gave it its meaning.

What I said was this: "Life is risk. We can minimize it, but everything we do to minimize risk carries its own costs. I'm not willing to give up too much to attempt to eliminate risk, although I certainly try to avoid acts of random idiocy; and I'm very definitely not about to take any "self-defence" measures that increase the risk of harm to both myself and others, which is exactly what involving firearms (that being what we're all really talking about) in my life is."

So gosh; when you say (emphasis added)

Its unfortunate that you reject self defense based on a fear that something bad will happen should you learn it. Its also surprising, considering that you dont let fear disuade you from your other behaviors.

... well, I think it's pretty plain, when we look at my entire statement, that you're just making shit up. Eh?

Now you, you've obviously been to the school of pretending that people have said things they didn't say so you can persuade ... someone, I guess ... that they were wrong. Right? What was it called now ... the School of Demagoguery, was it?

This sounds like a compromise. The question is, based on your past experiences and decisions, and lack of self defense skills, how comfortable are you with that decision and what price are you willing to pay?

Let me keep asking about that intuition. What do you know about my "self-defence skills", and what is your basis for asserting that I have a "lack" of them? Let me remind you that shit you've made up isn't a good basis.

What business is my comfort, or the price I am willing to pay for it, of yours? Did I at some point ask for your advice? I don't seem to recall doing it.

Here's how it went.

You: How concerned are you about self defense? ... <H>ow important is it to you? How often do you consider your vulnerabilities and your options? I know the question is dependent on where you live, be it an urban or suburban lifestyle so, how wary are you?

Me: not
Not an iota, not a scintilla, not for a moment, not ever, not anywhere.


I am not concerned about self-defence. It is not important to me. I do not often consider my vulnerabilities and my options. I am not wary. Because I HAVE NO REASON TO BE.

It is apparently your opinion that I should be. And I continue to give not a pinch of poop about your opinion, except to the extent that I object mightily to anyone who makes it his business to persuade others, and in particular women, that the world is a big scary place.

But nowhere in what I said is there foundation for what you have been misrepresenting it as meaning.

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gatlingforme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #66
72. let me make it perfectly clear, I am a victim too. and you do not
speak for all the women in this forum. I do not think you represent me and to say that you must make everything clear to all that are here is not right. I was a person who would not liked to be called that (victim) but please when you say "we" don't include me. I have my own experiences and I do not think someone else is in any position to taik of all women here.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. trust me, sweetheart (ed.)
Edited on Wed Jul-28-04 03:59 PM by iverglas
I have my own experiences and I do not think someone else is in any position to taik of all women here.

I had absolutely no intention of "taiking of" you or anyone else here.

let me make it perfectly clear, I am a victim too. and you do not speak for all the women in this forum.

If I had given any indication that I was purporting to speak for "all the women in this forum", I think you might have been able to quote me on it.

I spoke for myself, I think it was really very clear that I was speaking for myself, and you are perfectly welcome to speak for yourself.

I do not think you represent me and to say that you must make everything clear to all that are here is not right.

What, exactly, did you imagine that I was making perfectly clear - other than what I was saying to a particular individual, who was not you or any other(s) of that "all that are here"? Really, do you mean to say that *I* am not entitled to make what *I* am saying perfectly clear?

You've gone to all this trouble to address a post to me and say absolutely nothing, as far as I can tell. If you want to speak for yourself, be my guest. If you have a particular problem with what I have said (which would of course require understanding it), feel quite free to state what it is; just don't make up stuff about how I was supposedly trying to speak for you, or anyone else.

I was a person who would not liked to be called that (victim) but please when you say "we" don't include me.

Goodness, perhaps you'd like to specify what "we" in my post you might be talking about. I looked, but I didn't see one that might have got up our nose the way something seems to have done.

I can't actually tell what that might have been. I haven't a clue what your problem might be. But that's okay. I don't really care.


(typo edited; another night of work and no sleep; I go before my typing degenerates further and I get any less tolerant of silliness)

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gatlingforme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. That is why I want to make it perfectly clear to you......
Edited on Wed Jul-28-04 03:57 PM by gatlingforme
There are plenty of victims in this area of justice, and to say you do not care what others think is your business. To think that one person's rape experience validates that person's mockery of anothers opinion is quizical. I know what it is. To try and trump someone's experience in this field is weird. I like to show and explain what my deal is to others that have not been in the same situation instead of mocking them. IMO and as I said I know.
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gatlingforme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. Silliness? nice.
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-04 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #75
80. Sweetheart?
Why would you use such a sexist word to respond to another poster? Frustrated?
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-04 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. gender-neutral term of endearment
Why would you use such a sexist word to respond to another poster? Frustrated?

I'm pretty sure that men are called sweetheart all the time, RoeBear.

In place of "sexist", you might have meant 'overly familiar'. Me, I think that Iverglas' choice of words is a considered one, and is meant to reflect and highlight the manner in which some posters have remarked upon her own experiences and speculated about her psychological state.


Mary
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-04 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #66
82. Crystal clear.
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #45
65. Funkynesss?
I tried to edit my post for readability but it said the time was expired, 1 minute after I posted it!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Deleted message
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. nay!

I say. A propos of what? ... well nag me not, or I might get piggy. The banks of the agricultural metaphors river overflow ...

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Seems like only last week we were being lectured
upon this very subject by someone who shared the same literary habits.

Whatever became of that guy, anyway?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. and oddly enough

the 2cnd amendment of the constitution never mentions self defence

... the question in this thread (and my response) never mentioned keeping or bearing arms!

Isn't that just a coincidence and a half??

What colour *is* orange?

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. In fact, when folks like the Texas GOP make a fuss about "self defense"
Not very many are fooled as to what they REALLY mean...
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Why don't you tell us what they really mean? (nt)
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Why don't YOU tell us, feeb?
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. There's nothing about self defense in any of those. (nt)
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. And plenty about what they REALLY mean...
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. What do they really mean
when they're talking about "self defense" specifically?

"In fact, when folks like the Texas GOP make a fuss about "self defense"

Not very many are fooled as to what they REALLY mean..."
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Ask Trent Lott....
he means the same thing...
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I don't know Trent Lott.
Maybe you could explain it to me, since you brought it up.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Gee, feeb....
and not so long ago you were pretending that you didn't know what he'd been up to throughout his long and disgraceful career, either.
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Well he isn't my Senator.
So what do they really mean when they say "self defense?"
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Nuff said....
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. So what do they really mean when they say "self defense?" (nt)
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Guess you'll just have to guess....
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Well you brought it up maybe you should tell me. (nt)
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Ask Daivd Duke and Trent Lott, feeb....
because they'll be happy to couch it as "self defense" and "gun rights"
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Couch what as "self defense" and "gun rights?" (nt)
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #37
52. I don't think you'll get an answer.
He doesn't have one.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. I don't think I need to give an answer....
But hey, if you want to pretend too, feel free.
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. You never know.
I've seen some good ones.
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JayS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
35. It depends. If I am traveling, or going to be in a bad area late...
...at night, or dealing with a lot of cash then I will give it some thought but generally not much. I generally have a pistol in the truck but it is more suited to target shooting then defense...which is pretty much why it is with me to begin with. If there were to be riots they would occur far from me and most likely not be much of a bother in my area before the social order is restored.

Here, just knowing what areas to avoid is a fairly good guarantee that the crime you would be exposed to is not all that serious. I do have weapons at home that would be useful if the unlikely happened but it does not enter my thinking often. My neighborhood pays a lot in taxes so our services are quite good and we are next to a neighborhood that pays a LOT in taxes so there is some "bleed over" in services; their roads get repaved when they become dirty. :)
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skippythwndrdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
41. I work in corrections. Need I say more?
I carry constantly. Why? Because I've received numerous threats of harm and death form both inmates that are or may be out on the streets and their friends and family members.

It's not uncommon for both the officers and supervisors (me) involved in disciplinary against inmates actions to receive such threats.

Aside from the minimal state training available, I also draw upon past military training and have attended 4 courses at Gunsite, two under Cooper.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-26-04 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
46. Try to continuously inventory options...
Such as escape routes and availability of tools of protection.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. yes! ALWAYS know your exits!
You've brought up a good point, MrSandman. Making a practice of noting the locations of exits is very good habit to get into.

People have a strong tendency to leave a building through the same door that they entered it -- a fact that can work against you in two ways:

1. If you're being stalked, keeping to a consistent route makes you predictable and easier for your pursuer to locate;

2. In the case of fire or other emergency, you and others may wind up trapped if everyone tries to rush through the main exit, rather than each person leaving via the exit that is closest to him. This is what happened in the horrific fire that killed a hundred people at a Rhode Island nightclub last year. :cry:

Whenever I've stayed at a hotel, I've always walked through it first and familiarized myself with the floorplan -- noting especially the fire extinguishers and sprinklers and in what direction and how many doors down from my room the fire exits are. This may sound kind of hyper-vigilant, but a person who keeps calm and has a plan can survive -- and even help the other people there, so that everyone comes out of it okay (and you CANNOT EVER rely on anyone else to think about safety, unfortunately).


Mary
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #47
61. If it is hypervigilant,
why does every publi building have a fire escape diagram posted?
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Because the corrupt fire escape diagram industry's
lobbyists got regulations passed requiring them.
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gatlingforme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
57. I am always concerned for my safety. And as far as being
prepared for anything that might come up -- just don't know but as long as you are aware of your surroundings the less likely you would be a target. (this is the minimum I think)
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leanings Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
59. I'm about as concerned
about being attacked as I am about coming upon a serious motor vehicle accident or a heart attack victim. I certainly hope that it never happens. On the other hand, I am cognizant that it happens all the time, and so I know CPR and basic first aid and have an aid kit in my car and in my home.

Or as concerned as I am about having a fire at my house or otherwise having to put one out. I have fire extinguishers available that I know how to use and make sure I unplug my iron.

The "gun nut" absurdity that's constantly painted on this board would have me licking my chops every time I saw a guy run a red light or a fat guy going up a set of stairs or looking askance at everyone I met as a potential arsonist or perhaps wearing asbestos boxer shorts.
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kisses Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
67. When I was attacked...
...my hands/arms were free to move about my body for about a full minute while I was standing. Every day since, I wish I had a handgun.
I am much wiser now. And smarter. And prepared. And armed. And alive.
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. Trust no one. Stay alert at all times. There are no "friends."
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. by jove

I think you've got it.

Now go forth and carry the word from the dun gungeon to the benighted fools in the rest of this place, okay?

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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. I object!
please, lets just keep this place of love and merriment our own little secret. Can't ya just feel the love?
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. Cue: Elton John Music:
"Can you feel...the love tonight?"
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. This is almost verbatim the slogan line from the RPG "Paranoia."
"Stay Alert. Trust No One. Keep Your Laser Handy."

It's a satiric roleplaying game from Steve Jackson Games. The player characters are "Troubleshooters" whose job it is to find trouble, and shoot it. The characters die so frequently and inevitably that each character begins with six clones.
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. Yup. I was goin' for that. The Computer is your friend, Citizen.
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MTG250 Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-04 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
79. ...
I am not terribly concerned about it. I do try to keep an eye out for suspicious people or activity and if I notice it, I walk on the other side of the street and the such. In college (two years ago), I got jumped by 5 guys that beat the crap out of me, took my car keys, wallet, and backpack. If I had had my gun on me at the time, it would have gotten much uglier. They would have had it and not me. In that situation, they were found later that night driving my car and were arrested. I just finished the court crap this spring and two went to jail and the other 3 are on probation. Go figure. Do I carry a gun on me now? Not all the time. Usually I only take it with me places if I am going to be going to the range that day. I will not lie. I am not a gun owner that bought his gun for self defense. I bought it to spend time with my father punching holes in paper.
Self defense though, I carry a nice can of pepper spray and have a big can of Bear Spray in my truck now at all times. The chances of me becoming a victim of a crime outside of my own home with a gun are so small, I choose not to live my life anticipating it.
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Bowline Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-04 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
83. I'm not at all worried. The police will protect me at all times.
Right?
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goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-04 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. Good point
Ask a few cops about this issue. They have some unique perspectives, particularly how they address their own families' personal safety.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-04 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. We've got police officers right here on the JPS forum.
Go ahead and ask them. Don't be shy.
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