GUNS IN THE NEWS--July 29, 2004

[MrBenchley]

As CO Liberal sez:
Please try to adhere to the following voluntary guidelines, in order that we can have an orderly discussion of gun-related news topics:
1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current, stories should have been originally posted on the Internet within the previous 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board. EXCEPTION: On Mondays (since many people do not log in to DU over the weekend), stories can be posted from Saturday, Sunday, or Monday.
2 - Both pro-gun and anti-gun stories, editorials, and press releases are welcome in this thread, as long as they're current. Please do not post links to items from a few years back that support your position.
3 - Bear in mind that any links to extremely right-wing sites (such as Newsmax, CNS, or the Washington Times) or intentionally pro-gun or pro-control sites (such as the NRA or the Brady Campaign) are not considered reliable sources by many DU-ers. If at all possible, try to find a link for your story from a more mainstream source, such as a general-circulation newspaper or magazine site. If you choose to use a slanted site, be prepared for any negative feedback you may receive.
4 - Please try whenever possible to provide links to web sites that do not require you to subscribe to the site to read the story. If a subscription site is the only source you can find for a story, please note that fact in your message so people can decide whether they want to follow the link to read the entire story.
5 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People", or anything else that changes the meaning of the story.
6 - If it's not clear from the title where the story occurred, add the city, state, or country in parentheses after the title.
7 - The person adding a news story to the "GITN" thread is allowed (and encouraged) to comment on that story, indicating their position on the topic being discussed. These comments can appear either at the beginning or end of the post; if possible, place comments in a different typeface so readers can separate the comments from the story. Others who wish to comment on a posted story can do so by replying to that story; this allows other readers to follow the comments by scrolling through the subthread.
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9 - If you object to these guidelines (or the basic concept of the "Guns In The News" thread), do everyone else a favor and go to another thread.

[MrBenchley]

1. Duplex killing no random act (GA)

registration required
"The fatal shooting of a Norcross man by a trio of masked home invaders Tuesday morning wasn't a random act, authorities said.
Scott Michael Monty, 36, was shot and killed outside his Norcross-area duplex at 5425 Allen Woods Drive, police said. Authorities are searching for three suspects who fled the home and are trying to piece together a motive for the shooting.
"It looks like these people were targeted for some reason," Gwinnett police Cpl. Dan Huggins said. "It was not random.""

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/gwinnett/0704/29shooting.html

[MrBenchley]

2. Authorities Identify Gunshot Victim (FL)

"TAMPA - On Wednesday, Hillsborough County sheriff's deputies identified a man shot to death in the doorway of his apartment. He was Christopher Alexander Freeman, 34.
The shooting occurred shortly after midnight Tuesday when Freeman answered a knock on the door of his apartment, at 1115 E. 127th Ave. "

http://news.tbo.com/news/MGBJB69A8XD.html

[MrBenchley]

3. Man Finds Roommate Shot Twice (NC)

"Charlotte, NC -- Rescue workers rush a man to the hospital with gunshot wounds Thursday morning after his roommate found him in their apartment. Police say the man had been shot in the stomach and in the leg. They don't think the incident happened inside the apartment, but they haven't been able to locate a crime scene."

http://www.wsoctv.com/news/3590989/detail.html

[MrBenchley]

4. Dog shot in West View (PA)

Another "law abiding responsible gun owner" in action...

"Police last night were searching for a man who fled into the woods in his boxer shorts after a dog was shot in West View yesterday afternoon.
Shortly after 3 p.m., police responded to a report of an altercation at a home in the 400 block of Center Avenue.
Police said they took two men into custody -- one was inside the house during the incident and the other was sitting in a car nearby. The third man took off his pants and fled into the woods, police said."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04211/353595.stm

[Bowline]

6. Are you sure he legally possessed his gun? N/T

[MrBenchley]

7. Did he legally possess those pants?

Dishonesty and gun ownership seems to run hand in hand around here most days....

[Bowline]

9. You failed to answer the question.

You seek to demonize law abiding gun owners by claiming the actions of a criminal represent all of us when you have no facts to support your position.

[MrBenchley]

13. No shit? Ask me next

what a pantload the entire RKBA cause is.

[Bowline]

43. I don't CARE what you think about the RKBA.

I will continue to promote ALL of my civil rights and fight against those who wish to prevent me from exercising them. This includes anyone who trys to prevent me from possessing and carrying firearms for self defense.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Guns are here to stay, as are knives, clubs, and all manner of other weapons, and the bad guys have 'em. It's up to you to defend and protect yourself. If you think strong words and a glare will protect you against violent, armed thugs more power to you.

[MrBenchley]

46. Hahahahahaha...

"guns" are a "civil right" the way Faux Noise is "fair and balanced"

[CO Liberal]

51. It Really Doesn't Matter What ANY Of Us Think About RKBA

What really matters is how the courts interpret the Second Amendment. Any I don't believe that they have ruled that you have a right to carry any type of gun you want anywhere you damn well please.

[Bowline]

56. Actually, with the exception of private property and gov. buildings..

I CAN carry anything I can legally own, out in the open, with no fear of arrest.

[CO Liberal]

18. Are YOU Sure He Didn't?????

:shrug:

[library_max]

97. No, he probably pulled it out of thin air,

courtesy of the "black market" you guys are always talking about.

[MrBenchley]

99. And then he yanked off his pants and ran like a sumbitch....

and with him went the good wishes and support of our "pro gun democrats" for a job well done...

[Bowline]

5. M'ville gun shop owner fights back (Merrillville, Indiana)

MERRILLVILLE -- James Shema stood behind the front counter of his store Wednesday afternoon and calmly looked up from his work to greet a potential customer.

It was business as usual for the 60-year-old owner of Shema's Outdoor Sports, despite an attempted robbery Tuesday night during which a man allegedly threatened him, his wife, Kathy, and three customers with a sawed-off shotgun.

Instead of becoming a victim, the gun store owner and marksman reportedly shot and seriously wounded his attacker.

Complete article

[MrBenchley]

8. Woman Shot Inside of Hospital; Boyfriend Suspected (NY)

<sarcasm>When you own a gun, you can always settle issues of the heart for good....</sarcasm>

"Around 5:45 a.m. on Wednesday, Carmen Velez was shot on the bridge connecting two buildings of the New York State Psychiatric Institute. Police say Velez and the suspect were co-workers in the housekeeping department.
Sources say Velez and Ramon Rameriz dated for about a year, but broke up last December. The 31-year-old Velez refused attempts to reconcile.
On Wednesday, without saying a word Rameriz allegedly walked up to Velez and shot her in the eye at point blank range. "

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/wabc_072804_shooting3.html

[Bowline]

10. Does this mean he'll lose his handgun permit for NYC?

Did he even have a permit to lawfully carry the gun? I'm betting the gun, and his carrying it, were both illegal BEFORE he even committed the shooting.

Again, the actions of this man DO NOT represent law abiding gun owners.

[MrBenchley]

11. Gee...you mean you think it would have been better if he HAD a permit?

"the actions of this man DO NOT represent law abiding gun owners"
Sez you....

[Bowline]

14. It would have still been terrible, regardless of his status.

The point I was making was that this man's actions were his, and his alone. He doesn't represent you, doesn't represent me, nor does he represent anyone other than himself. The gun didn't walk up to the victim all by itself and start shooting her, a deranged criminal did. Blaming the gun for a shooting is like blaming a car for a DUI.

[MrBenchley]

17. A disgraceful rationalization...

And trying to pretend that more pistol permits and legalized assault weapons amount to harmless fun is a shameful disgrace.

[Bowline]

37. I don't know how to break it to you gently but, here goes...

The AWB WILL sunset in September. 46 of 50 states allow citizens to carry concealed weapons. Some, Vermont and Alaska, don't even require a permit. Guns are here to stay and no amount of governmental meddling will change that. You can either accept these facts and continue to live your life as you see fit or cower at home in fear, hoping that the police will be there to protect you. Either way the reality of the situation is what it is.

[TX-RAT]

42. Slight correction

( cower at home in fear,)
Only when my wifes around.

[Bowline]

44. Well, that's a given.

Only a fool risks the wrath of a disgruntled wife.

[MrBenchley]

48. Ask me next

about the unstoppable "immunity from liability" bill in the Senate that some of us were such fools for opposing....hahahaha....


"Either way the reality of the situation is what it is"
Which is why we have RKBA "enthusiasts" in here pretty much every day pissing and moaning that the reality of the situation is being posted in this thread. Like you're doing.

[library_max]

98. People said the same thing about slavery.

That it was never going to end, and that people who didn't like it would have to get used to it. Likewise segregation. Likewise the lack of votes for women.

Since when did "It's always been that way and it's not going to change" become a progressive argument?

[MrBenchley]

102. Since Ted Nugent became a "civil rights leader"

In other words, it's no more progressive than it is mint-flavored....

[CO Liberal]

21. They Don't Make Other Gun Owners Look Good, Either

Wouldn't it be better for your side to have the bad apples weeded out???? That's all that reasonable gun control measures are intended to do - still allow ordinary citizens to access guns if they choose, while keeping guns out of the hands of criminals, the mentally ill, and those with personal histories of violent behavior.

[MrBenchley]

28. You will notice

the bullets for brains bunch oppose any measure that might hold the so-called "responsible law abiding gun owners" actually responsible...or threaten in any way gun industry profits.

[Bowline]

38. I'd agree if...

If the system would actually prevent criminals and the mentally ill from ever getting access to guns while allowing the rest of us unfettered access to weapons for personal defense and other legal uses. The reality of the situation is that as long as there are guns in existence criminals will get them, and use them to commit crimes. Banning them would only restrict the ability of you and I to defend ourselves should we so choose.

[CO Liberal]

54. You Really Need to Work on Your Reading Comprehension

NO ONE HERE is talking about BANNING ALL GUNS!!!

We are talking about controlling access to them.

I cannot endorse "unfettered access", because then you'd have some asshole somewhere who thinks that he as a constitutionally-protected right to own an A-bomb.....

[Bowline]

57. Fair enough...

Who gets to decide where the line is drawn?

[library_max]

100. If we're talking about where to draw the line,

then we've abandoned the idea that RKBA is an absolute right.

[CO Liberal]

106. I Don't Think It Ever Was

Pro-gunners who posted on DU in the past justified RKBA as a "inalienable right" because that term was used in the Declaration of Independence. But it appears nowhere in the Constitution or the Bill or Rights......

[iverglas]

12. Paralyzed victim asks for public's help in solving attack

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1091052613821&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

Stolen, high-powered weapon was used in Russo shooting

CAL MILLAR
STAFF REPORTER <Toronto Star>

Louise Russo glanced to her right as a detective was holding up a high-powered assault rifle — the same type of weapon that was fired at her in a shooting that condemned her to life in a wheelchair.

A Colt AR 15 was found near the scene, and forensic tests have confirmed it was one of two guns used in the shooting, police said.

Detective Bryan Bott, who is heading the task force investigating the shooting, said the rifle was stolen in a break-in 11 years ago but has never been used in any other crime. He wouldn't specify exactly where the weapon had been taken but said it was from a house somewhere in Ontario. "It was legally obtained and taken from someone's house," he said.

Bott said the weapon was designed for military and law-enforcement agencies but can be purchased for hunting. It holds 20 to 40 bullets.

... Police are looking for at least three people, including two gunmen who were leaning through the open door of a 1992 or '93 blue or green minivan while firing shots into the restaurant.

[enfield collector]

16. once again, assualt rifle = machine gun. AR15 = semi-auto, not machine gun

AR15 fires .223, not classed as high powered, which is why you're not allowed to deer hunt with it. sloppy reporting again.

[MrBenchley]

19. Once again, the RKBA crowd tries to spin away the truth...

[Bowline]

22. The article is factually incorrect.

No spin required.

[MrBenchley]

29. Pathetic spin...

but what else does the RKBA cause ever have?

[Bowline]

45. When did accurate facts become "pathetic spin"?

When they ceased to agree with your position?

[MrBenchley]

49. When did pathetic spin become any sort of fact?

[Bowline]

53. Typical anti-civil rights tactic.

Accurate, verifiable facts are presented. They do not support your position so you deem them pathetic spin. Not a very effective debating tool but one used all too often by the anti-rights crowd. The same technique was used by some to try to prevent women and blacks from voting, or from attending school, or exercising any number of their rights.

[MrBenchley]

59. No, typical RKBA bullshit as usual....

"The same technique was used by some to try to prevent women and blacks from voting, or from attending school, or exercising any number of their rights."
Gee, and now the last gasp of the humholes who did that are spouting this dishonest gun rights rubbish at the top of their rancid lungs...and even parroting the same diseased rhetoric in some cases.

But it is hilarious to see you try to pass off the movement that consists almost entirely of specimens like Trent Lott, Larry Pratt, Ted Nugent, Grover Norquist, Larry Craig, and the like as being anything but bigoted shitheads.

[Bowline]

65. Ooohhh, another good tactic.

Find something you don't like, associate it to a handfull of people you don't like, then apply that label to an entire organization or movement. Fantastic. Keep up the good work.

[MrBenchley]

67. An even funnier tactic...

Yeah, let's PRETEND that the scumbags in the RKBA movement aren't actually the scumbags in the RKBA movement.

"Keep up the good work."
I plan to...our "pro gun democrats" have such charming playmates....

[Bowline]

68. Personal insults...another tactic when facts fail you.

It's always a good idea to pepper your arguments with personal attacks and name calling. It makes people really want to listen to your side of the argument.

[MrBenchley]

73. Gee, and yet I have the facts and you got bupkis....

And the fact is that the gun rights politicans are all shitheels like Trent Lott, John AshKKKroft and David Duke...

"It makes people really want to listen to your side of the argument"
Yeah, the good faith exhibited by our trigger-happy brethren is humbling indeed.....

[Bowline]

79. Facts? What facts? You are, as usual, using childish derision...

in a feeble attempt to shore up a weak argument. No facts here, sir. Just silly, childish name calling. What the heck is a "humhole" anyway?

[CO Liberal]

81. OK, Bowline - Show Us Evidence.....

...that Trent Lott, John Ashcroft and David Duke are NOT shitheels.

[MrBenchley]

84. Remember, this is ALL Bowline sticking up

for the guy who claimed that an article that did not contain the words "machine gun" actually contained the words "machine gun."

[CO Liberal]

88. And That Everyone Who Disagrees With Him...

...is out to ban all guns. :shrug:

[MrBenchley]

91. And that the politicans flogging the rancid "gun rights" creed

aren't the politicans flogging the rancid "gun rights" creed at all....

And that we're the ones who don't have "facts"...(hahahaha)

[Bowline]

105. Sorry to burst your bubble but you are completely and totally WRONG!!!

Read this post and you'll notice I was contradicting the guy who claimed the article said machine gun.

[Bowline]

104. Again, the onus is upon you to prove that they are.

I couldn't care either way.

[MrBenchley]

83. Facts...

"What the heck is a "humhole" anyway?"
Here's a gaping one...and he's pro-gun all the way....racist too.

[CO Liberal]

23. WRONG!!!!!

Nowhere in the article Iverglas provided a link to was ANY mention made of "machine gun".

Please get your facts straight before posting your anti-control venom.

[Bowline]

26. Correct. This was NOT a machine gun.

Nor was there any mention of a machine gun in the article.

[MrBenchley]

30. Disgraceful, isn't it? Some people read "heart wrenching appeal"

and think "Oh, the poor maligned gun."

[Bowline]

41. The real tragedy was, indeed, the shooting of the lady.

However, that in no way relieves the media from it's responsibility to do a little basic research and report the facts accurately.

[MrBenchley]

50. Yeah it shows....

...that's why there's this dishonest tooralloo pretending there's any mention of a machine gun in the story...

[iverglas]

72. what the fuck?

The weapon in question was called, by the Toronto police, an "assault rifle".

It was NOT called a "machine gun".

It was NOT called an "assault weapon" -- which appears to be a bit of terminology unique to USAmerican legislation, and has absolutely nothing to do with CANADA, which is where this event took place.

What in dog's name are *you* on about?


It's hard to say whether it was called a "high-powered" rifle by the police or by a reporter off on a frolic of his/her own -- but if that's what the police called it, and the reporter merely reported what the police said, I don't think I'd call this "sloppy reporting", and I don't think I'd feel compelled to accept your opinion of what's "high-powered" over the opinion of the police in question.

The Colt AR-15 is a "restricted weapon" in Canada. If you're interested in knowing what that means, feel free to read the resources I have provided in the past:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=15464
and specifically
http://www.canlii.org/ca/regu/sor98-462/whole.html
http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-46/sec84.html

[NorthernSpy]

82. what he's on about...

I think that Fourays is pointing out that a semi-automatic rifle cannot, by definition, be an 'assault rifle'. The point (as I understand it) is that all assault rifles are capable of automatic fire: an assault rifle must have a setting that allows it to fire more than one round per trigger-pull, or it's not assault rifle.

I also think that Fourays is one of those people who tends to consider assault rifles equivalent to light machine guns (though some sources that I've read prefer to discuss them separately). Machine guns also fire more than one round per trigger-pull.

A semi-automatic rifle fires only one round each time the shooter squeezes the trigger. This -- and not an 'assault rifle' -- is the sort of weapon that was used in the maiming of the woman in your news story.


Mary



(edit: typo)

[iverglas]

86. and he would have been on about something relevant

if ... well, if what he was saying was relevant to the event reported.

There is no "assault weapons ban" in Canada.

The nature of the firearm was NOT an issue in the Toronto Star story. It is not an issue in the shooting. It is not an issue in the public's mind.

There is indeed a statutory term for the weapon in question in Canada: as I've said, it's a "restricted firearm". It is a restricted firearm because it is listed, *by name*, in the regulatory list that defines the statutory term "restricted firearm".

In this case, the firearm was illegally acquired, by the person who did the shooting, 11 years ago in a burglary.

There's just no issue here relating to whether anyone should be able to buy or possess these things at present, and whether any law affecting the ability to buy or possess them would have any effect on incidents such as these. If any law might have made it more difficult for that firearm to have been illegally acquired 11 years ago, that's a bit of a moot point at the moment.

The story wasn't about a gun. It was about a women who was shot by someone who happened to be in illegal possession of a particular firearm. What kind of firearm it was, or what anybody wants to call it, is just not really interesting, certainly to me, and I can't imagine why it would be to anyone else. Just as the whole "assault weapon" squabble in the US and on this board is just not really interesting to me.

I did find this interesting review of the linguistic issue:

http://web4.integraonline.com/~bbroadside/Semantics_of_Firearms.html

[Bowline]

20. One correction to the article.

An AR-15 is neither high-powered nor an assault rifle. It is actually a relatively LOW powered, semi-automatic only, .22 cal rifle that is banned for hunting use in many states, precisely because it is not considered powerful enough. It is functionally identical to, yet cosmetically different from, the rifle used by the D.C. area shooters during their murder spree.

That said, I believe the individual(s) responsible for shooting this woman should spend the rest of their lives in prison with no possibility of parole, the same punishment I believe should be given to anyone who uses a gun to commit a crime.

[CO Liberal]

25. We Don't Know How The AR-15 Is Classified in Canada...

...where this incident took place. Anyone know????

[MrBenchley]

32. Not even close to true...

The AR-15 certainly is an assault rifle (that's what the "AR" stands for, fer chrissake) and would be banned in the current Senate proposal...

[Bowline]

39. The AR in the MILITARY version stood for "Assault Rifle"..

The civilian version is merely a semi-auto only copy of the military assault rifle version. The name is simply a marketing tool.

[NorthernSpy]

47. I thought AR ...

... stood for Armalite.

I could be wrong.


Mary

[MrBenchley]

52. So tell us....

since you seem to think this charade is worth playing, what does it stand for in the civilian version?

Auto-erotic Rimjob?
Asswipes Rejoice?

[NorthernSpy]

60. I've told you what AR stood for...

Maybe it doesn't sound authoritative enough coming from me.

So -- read this, please:

http://www.fact-index.com/a/ar/armalite.html


Mary

[Bowline]

63. So, it could stand for "Armalite Rifle #15"?

That way we'd be able to distinguish it from Armalite Rifle #14, or #16? Kind of like the way the WD in "WD-40" indicates "Water Displacement formula #40" in order to differentiate it from the 39 water displacement formulas that came before it?

[NorthernSpy]

66. yeah,pretty much

I guess that's how it works. The Armalite rifles started with AR-5, and have included AR-10, AR-15, and AR-18.

Mind you, I don't actually know any of this stuff. I just remember one of the other pro-gunners here saying that AR really meant 'Armalite', and the article that I pointed to contains the rest of the info...


And -- so that's what 'WD40' stands for! I've wondered about that from time to time.

:)


Mary

[slackmaster]

95. Sort of like Brew 102

Since they stopped there it brings terror to my mind thinking of what Brew 101 or Brew 86 must have tasted like.

:D

[Bowline]

62. Post deleted

Post Deleted

[slackmaster]

94. Wrong! AR has always stood for ArmaLite Rifle

Please see numerous informative articles at http://www.jobrelatedstuff.com/content/

[iverglas]

78. I know the thread is about guns...but for anyone interested in the person

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1082758212808

The article I first posted, and that one, has a list of related articles down the right-hand side.

The woman is 45, and has a disabled teenaged daughter. She left a well-paid sales job at Bell Canada for a part-time clerical job to care for that child. From the April report:

At 10:12 that night, when Russo stood in line at a North York sandwich shop, she was hit in the spine by a bullet.

Witnesses said as many as 10 shots were fired before a minivan raced from the scene.

It was a random shooting, police said. They are still investigating and have made no arrests.

I actually don't give a shit what firearm was used to shoot her, and I doubt that she does either.

And I think that the police should be giving us a whole lot more details about just how it ended up in the hands of the people who shot her with it. It was stolen from a legal owner -- it was legal to own at the time of the theft 11 years ago. (I'm not entirely clear on the legality of owning that kind of firearm right now, i.e. what the requirements for a licence are. It is *not* legal to possess them outside the premises in which they are permitted to be possessed, exept for certain reasons.)

Under exactly what circumstances? A random break-in? Was the firearm properly secured? Had the owner broken the law? How has ammunition for it been acquired since that time?

(Ya just can't walk into a Canadian Tire and buy ammunition without a licence these days: http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/f-11.6/)

But again -- it could have been a BB gun, for all I care. It was stolen from someone who may not actually have been one of those "law-abiding gun owners", and it was used to paralyze a woman standing in a restaurant waiting to buy a sandwich. And I'd like to know how far the responsibility spreads.


On another point, there is no such thing as "life without parole" in Canada, and there never will be -- given that we have a constitution that guarantees individual rights and all that stuff. *If* the offender qualified as "dangerous", i.e. had convictions for certain kinds of offences and met other criteria, s/he could possibly be imprisoned indefinitely; this is rare.

The longest sentence in Canada is life, and in the case of first-degree murder this can mean a minimum 25 years w/o parole, although the offender is entitled to apply for a hearing of a parole application after a shorter time, the "faint hope" clause.

And that's exactly how things oughta be.

[NorthernSpy]

107. Iverglas

I read all the stories at the link when you first posted it. I don't think that anyone here is indifferent to Louise Russo's plight.


Mary

[iverglas]

108. actually

I don't expect anyone to read any more than what is posted. I do occasionally follow a link for one of the stories, but I don't even read all the posts in these threads.

They're just events. There is seldom any reason to have an opinion about an event, so there isn't much for anyone to say in response to a story about one: ooh, that's so sad, eh?

Sometimes a report of an event raises issues. In the story I posted, the issue, to my mind, was how the hell the firearm in question had come to be stolen.

Since it was 11 years ago, it may be that it was owned, and being handled, at the time, in accordance with whatever the laws were -- but perhaps the owner would have been entitled to possess it, or would not have been storing it properly, under current standards. The facts would be interesting to know from that perspective, because they might provide an indication of what the need for the new standards was, and that (if complied with, which might mean if enforced), the new standards could be expected to have an effect on the occurrence of such thefts leading to such tragedies.

Those were the bits of the story that I reproduced -- the genesis of the firearm -- because that's what I found interesting.

This was a firearm that was, so we are vaguely given to understand, in the hands of a "law-abiding gun owner". I'd like to know just how law-abiding that gun owner actually was, and whether his/her failure to abide by any laws contributed to the firearm falling into less law-abiding hands. If so, I'd like to see prosecution, if the necessary evidence is available, of course, that being perhaps unlikely.

The visiting Brit engineer who was gunned down dead in a random drive-by shooting on a busy sidewalk in the capital of Canada a few years ago was shot with a firearm that had just been stolen in a house break-in, where it was legally owned, but *not* legally stored. That "law-abiding gun owner" was not prosecuted. I could never understand why.

(Oh, btw, for those keeping track, the drive-by shooter was in a car that was also stolen. Oddly, he used the firearm, and not the car, to kill the random victim, after having also shot out a few windows and such. And we *do* require cars to be left locked and keyless when not in use.)

So anyhow, this was perhaps just a story that didn't raise any issues needing discussing in anyone else's mind.

But what I did not see it raising was any issue having to do with the nature of the firearm used in the event. It was a firearm. It was used to kill someone. No one was suggesting -- not I, not the police, not the newspaper -- that the nature of the firearm was the source of the problem, or that anything should be done to further restrict access to such firearms.

I also just occasionally post a tale of firearms violence in Canada as in indication of the media attention that such tales get up here, precisely because they are so occasional.

So I just saw somebody mounting his/her hobbyhorse and riding it into a place where it just wasn't meant to be, and dropping a big red fishy-smelling road apple.

[MrBenchley]

15. Man pleads not guilty to shootout with police (SD)

Another glorious celebration of the Second Amendment...wonder how muich this fuckwit's fun will end up costing taxpayers?

"A Rapid City man accused of being involved in a police shootout at his parents' house in May has pleaded not guilty.
Trenton Elliot, 20, was charged with committing a felony with a firearm and three counts of aggravated assault. Police say he refused to put down his gun and fired at least once at officers with a shotgun.
Elliot was shot was in the wrist and three times in the lower trunk."

http://www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdeennews/news/9264712.htm

[Bowline]

24. What part of the Second Amendment was he exercising?

He wasn't using his firearm for defense but rather to commit a crime.

[CO Liberal]

27. He Was a "Law-Abiding Gun Owner" ...

...until the instant that he shot at a cop. Then he bacame a felon.

[Bowline]

31. Actually, if he was only 20 he probably had the gun illegally.

In most states the legal age to possess a handgun is 21. I'll have to do some more research but I'll post the results.

[TX-RAT]

33. Whats the age for a shot gun?

[Bowline]

35. The law doesn't specify.

I would therefore assume it is also 18 as it is illegal for a minor to possess any firearms without parental supervision.

[Bowline]

34. You were correct.

According to South Dakota law he could legally possess a handgun at age 18.

[MrBenchley]

36. No part of the actual Second amendment as the courts interpret it

but as right wing fuckwits use it, it's exactly what he was doing. How often are we told by our "enthusiasts" that we can't trust the cops and that popguns are needed to "defeat the fascists" and other histrionic rubbish?

[Bowline]

40. I think we're arguing in circles here.

We both agree that the guy was in the wrong. We both agree he was not exercising his 2nd amendment right to self defense because he was using a gun to avoid lawful, legal action on behalf of the police. We also agree that the shotgun he used is neither an assault weapon, a concealed handgun, nor illegal in any way. Only his actions are illegal, and he should be punished harshly for his illegal actions.

[iverglas]

80. and here I thought

What part of the Second Amendment was he exercising?"
He wasn't using his firearm for defense but rather to commit a crime.

That people didn't need to have a REASON for exercising that right to POSSESS a firearm?!

And damned if it doesn't seem to me that *that* is the question here -- not whether the person oughta have used his firearm for the purpose he used it for, but WHETHER HE OUGHTA HAVE HAD A FIREARM.

It's a tough one, all right. /sarcasm

[library_max]

101. He was keeping and bearing his gun.

And by "defense," do you mean common defense, i.e. the militia, or self-defense? Because the Second Amendment doesn't have a single syllable in it about self-defense.

But you're right, he no more had a Second Amendment RKBA than any other private citizen does.

[MrBenchley]

55. Man admits firing shotgun during a parking dispute (IL)

registration required
Yet another "responsible, law-abiding gun owner" of the sort none ever has to worry about...let's give him an assault rifle to play with next time </sarcasm>

"COOK COUNTY -- A Schaumburg man who last year attempted to resolve a parking-space dispute with a loaded shotgun pleaded guilty Tuesday to two counts of reckless discharge of a firearm.
In exchange for his plea, charges of aggravated assault and aggravated unlawful use of a weapon against John Carter, 55, of the 1000 block of Casa Drive were dismissed.
On June 29, 2003, Carter demanded that another man leave a visitor's parking space at the Del Lago development, where Carter lives. When the man refused, Carter went home and returned with a shotgun, prosecutors said."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/nearnorthwest/chi-0407290314jul29,1,6951445.story?coll=chi-newslocalnearnorthwest-hed

[Bowline]

58. Can't get to the article without registering

Do you have a different link?

[MrBenchley]

61. That's a real shame....

Ask me next if I think GUNS should be registered....

[Bowline]

64. Ok, I'll ask...

Do you think guns should be registered?

[MrBenchley]

69. Yeah, I do...as do two-thirds of the American public

I also think gun owners should be licensed, and that ammunition sales should be limited to license holders who can produce a valid license.

[Bowline]

71. Licensing owners is different from registering guns.

I agree that anyone who wishes to carry a firearm in public should be required to be trained in it's use and the legal ramifications of such actions. A gun is a deadly weapon and must be treated like one. I have to be trained to operate a car, a plane, or a motorcycle, so why not a gun.

I do not, however, see any GOOD purpose for the government keeping a record of what type and how many guns I actually own.

[MrBenchley]

74. I see plenty of good purpose

and so do many others....

[NorthernSpy]

77. where I live...

... people mostly learn to shoot from people they know. There is no licensing of gun owners (other than for concealed carry), and the informality of this system hasn't harmed us any.

What exactly would you favor as licensing requirements? Completion of an accredited firearms course? A target shooting test?


Mary

[Bowline]

70. New Restrictions to Own a Gun

Starting today, Washington is taking a step forward to stop certain people from getting handguns. The state department of social and health services is now giving names of mentally ill people who can't own handguns to the FBI. Police and gun shop owners use the list of names in the national instant criminal background check system to screen people buying guns. Washington is the first state to submit the names of mentally ill people to the national computer database.

[MrBenchley]

75. No link?

Wonder where the gun lobby stood on this common sense measure.....

[MrBenchley]

76. Sexual-assault trial begins in Suffolk (VA)

"SUFFOLK — The haunting videotape image of a 3-year-old Suffolk boy handling – and apparently, at one point, peering down the barrel – of a handgun has attracted national media attention.
It also may become a sideshow to a sexual-assault trial scheduled to start today in Circuit Court here.
The Allens were arrested after their neighbor Angela Gizara videotaped the couple and a friend taking target practice last week. Gizara , in an interview Wednesday, said she heard gunshots from her house and saw her neighbors drinking and shooting. She also said she saw the children nearby and was worried.
Court records show that Gizara has been called to testify during the trial, scheduled for today, of Santiago D. Taduran , who is related to the couple Gizara videotaped, according to records and interviews. "

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=73693&ran=202200

[MrBenchley]

85. Newport News Police Identify Victim Of Monday Night Shooting Death (VA)

"Newport News police said Thursday they have identified a shooting victim who was found early Tuesday morning in the 600 block of Antrim Drive.
Twenty-two year old Anthony Lee Hawkins was rushed to Riverside Regional Medical Center, where he died from his injuries Tuesday afternoon.
Initially, Hawkins had no identification his person. He was positively identified via fingerprint analysis."

http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp?S=2106243&nav=23iiPJoY

[MrBenchley]

87. Man Lies About Shooting Himself (NY)

"The Niagara County Sheriff's Department and the State Police launched a 3 hour man hunt yesterday near Mapleton Road, after 49-year old George Shearman reported he had been shot by someone who walked up to his front door.
Officers searched by air and foot, but found nothing. Then investigators say "Shearman fessed up to shooting himself by accident with an unregistered handgun." Chief Inv. Bruce Roth, Niagara County Sheriff's Department said "this was going to create a problem for him so he didn't want to report that he had these handguns. He also was concerned about telling his wife that he had accidentally shot himself.""

http://www.wivb.com/Global/story.asp?S=2106567&nav=0RapPJwt

[iverglas]

89. Toronto librarian accused of being wanted Panther

I posted this story in LBN, to not much response:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=715069&mesg_id=715069

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040729/COLDCASE29/TPNational/TopStories
(may require registration)

On March 7, 1969, 21-year-old patrolman Terrence Knox was driving his marked car in the Kensington District of Chicago when he saw a 19-year-old man on the street.

"I stopped him and asked him why he wasn't in school," the retired officer recalled yesterday afternoon in an interview, "and for some reason he decided to shoot me."

... Chicago press coverage at the time said Mr. Pannell was originally from Washington and that he was AWOL from the U.S. Navy, a detail Mr. Knox confirmed yesterday.

Don't know whether this will work ...

http://news.google.ca/news?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&tab=nn&newsclusterurl=http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-copshot29.html&filter=0
-- google news results. Otherwise, put pannell knox toronto chicago 1969 in the search box and click on the news stories link.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-copshot29.html

Pannell attended a court hearing <immediately after his first arrest> and was turned over to the U.S. Navy because he was absent without leave from the Great Lakes Naval Base, police said.

... About two years later, in December 1973, he was arrested again while living on the North Side.

In court, Pannell's lawyer, Marc R. Kadish, had argued that his client deserved a bond reduction from $100,000 to $6,000 because he was a talented poet published in Black Scholar and other journals. The judge disagreed and set bond at $100,000.

... Pannell admitted to police that he was a member of the radical Black Panthers organization, officials said. Knox said underground publications also identified him as a member.

There's no indication so far whether Pannell acknowledges the accuracy of the account of the incident given by Knox and the Chicago police. No reason to think it isn't accurate, but one never knows.

It just seemed like it might be of interest to some here ...

[Romulus]

90. Robbery Victim Shoots at Home Invaders (MS)

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/9250591.htm

GULFPORT - An elderly, white-haired woman appeared calm Monday as she sat at a patio table and talked to investigators after her injured grandson fired at two robbers during a home invasion.

Her grandson, who was struck on the back of his head, found a gun and started shooting as two men ran from the home on Lewis Avenue, police said. At least one of the victims was tied with duct tape, police said at the scene after the 1:56 p.m. call for help.

*snip*

In Monday's incident, the grandson told detectives he was coming out of a bedroom when he noticed the two men inside, said Sexton. The grandson fell as one of the men struck him and managed to grab a gun hidden underneath a bed, Sexton said.

*snip*

Home invasions appear to have declined across South Mississippi since January. Authorities reported 11 home invasions in 2003, four in 2002, and 10 in 2001, including one that resulted in the deaths of three victims. Two suspects also died in 2001.

*snip/more*

[MrBenchley]

92. Shooting victim dies; man held in county jail (OK)

"BETHANY - A man shot Tuesday night at a local apartment complex has died.
Preston Cooper, 27, of Bethany died about 4 a.m. Wednesday from a gunshot wound to the chest, said officials in the state medical examiner's office.
About 11:30 p.m. Tuesday, acting on witness descriptions, police entered a unit at Valencia Apartments, 2221 N Meridian, and arrested Terrence Quillen, 23, of Oklahoma City on a complaint of shooting with intent to kill. Quillen is being held on a murder complaint.
Witnesses told police that Quillen and Cooper were part of an ongoing feud between two groups of people, and that there have been previous altercations between the groups, Bethany Police Chief Neal Troutman said. Witnesses said the shooting could have arisen in retaliation for a recent fight, Troutman said. "

http://www.newsok.com/article/1284726/?template=news/main

[MrBenchley]

93. Teen charged in Rocori High shootings pleads not guilty (MN)

"ST. CLOUD, Minn. -- The teen charged in the shooting deaths of two fellow students at Rocori High School in Cold Spring last year pleaded not guilty on Thursday.
John Jason McLaughlin entered the plea through his attorney. He made few comments during the short court appearance. His trial date has been set for Feb. 1.
McLaughlin, 16, has been charged with one count of first-degree murder, three counts of second-degree murder, assault and possessing a dangerous weapon on school property.
McLaughlin is accused of the Sept. 24, 2003, shootings of Aaron Rollins, 17, and Seth Bartell, 14. Rollins died that day, and Bartell died Oct. 10 at St. Cloud Hospital."

http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/4901138.html

[MrBenchley]

96. Albertville man arrested for shootings (AL)

Yeah, having a gun owner in the neighborhood makes everyone safer (snicker)......

"ALBERTVILLE - A local man was arrested Tuesday in connection with a series of shootings into residences over the past seven months.
Gregory Wayne Sadler, 34, of Albertville was charged with felony shooting into an occupied dwelling in connection with a March 28 shooting at a house. The house on North Carlisle Street was also shot into on Jan. 11 and July 13.
Albertville City Detective Eric Croft was assigned full-time to solving the series of shootings. Assistant Police Chief Doug Pollard praised the cooperative effort that resulted in the arrest in the string of shootings that have baffled police because of their random nature. The Rainsville Police Department and Huntsville forensic specialists aided Albertville police in making the arrest.
Pollard said Sadler's pistol was obtained Monday during a traffic stop after a tip from Rainsville. Also, forensic specialists in Huntsville matched evidence found at the North Carlisle Street residence to the gun. He said other evidence from other shootings will also be compared to the pistol. "

http://www.al.com/news/huntsvilletimes/index.ssf?/base/news/1091123223271230.xml

[MrBenchley]

103. Shootings injure two (MI)

More of the price we pay as a country for letting the GOP and the corrupt gun lobby set public policy.

"Two men were hospitalized in a pair of shootings early today just blocks from each other, Grand Rapids police said.
The first shooting was reported at 2:30 a.m. on Dwight Avenue SE, near East Fulton Street, when three men, ages 18 to 22, approached a 25-year-old man and robbed him at gunpoint, police said. The men shot the victim in the upper torso and fled.
The victim, whose name was not released, was expected to survive."

http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ssf?/base/news-16/1091114681323050.xml