Question about the attitude.

[LibraLabSoldier]

I have been posting in the "gungeon". The level of abuse in there is ridiculous. I thought it was a right wing tactic to avoid facts, and discredit sources that dont agree with how you think........I am a liberal. I just happen to also be a gun owner. But I have found myself getting dragged into arguments that degenerate into accusations and insults. Just a simple question. Do you guys think there is a place for gun owners in the Democratic party? Or do you have to be choosy about your allies?

[kikiek]

1. I don't have a problem with sane gun ownership. Don't see a need

for assault rifles or bullets that pierce police officers vests. Actually if things continue as they are might have to take up arms!

[LibraLabSoldier]

6. Just a side bar.

An "assault" rifle is no more dangerous or powerful than any ordinary semiautomatic rifle. And the socalled bulletproof vest piercing bullets....well...any highpowered rifle will pierce a bullet proof vest if fired directly. It doesnt take special ammo. The second chance vests that law enforcement and our MPs use has a secondary kevlar plate in front and back that reduce the chance of that happening.....

[kikiek]

10. Then why do they make special bullets?

And I don't like any gun that can fire in such rapid succession. Don't see the need for that in any form. Gotta be better ways to have fun. Oh and I do believe in background checks..and if they know what cars are registered to me why not guns.

[LibraLabSoldier]

12. what special bullets?

And a semi automatic fires one bullet for each pull of the trigger. Not exactly rapid fire. You are mistaking "assault weapon" for machine gun.

[kikiek]

14. AK 47's seem to be used to shoot a lot of people. The bullets

that are made to do so much damage in the body and they pierce body armour. I know you said any can, but some are made to from what I've read.

[LibraLabSoldier]

18. You need to recheck your sources.

I own a perfectly legal post ban AK47. It has no magical properties that make it shoot faster, more accurately or more powerfully. My hunting rifles are more powerful, quite frankly. And the "AK 47s seem to be used to shoot a lot of people." is only in movies. Most firearm crimes and suicides are done with handguns, not AKs.

[kikiek]

20. Well we will disagree on guns then.

[karlrschneider]

33. Exactly. My 30.06 with its scope is probably more effective than most

"assault" rifles if the object is to kill a particular critter. (I don't kill anything except for food.) It doesn't please me to do it, but many people who buy the prettily-packaged hamburger at the grocery don't realize or admit that a cow was hammer-killed at an abbatoir.

[Spider Jerusalem]

19. Sorry, you're mistaken..

the ammunition you're probably thinking of generally ISN'T made to do excess damage to the human body; in point of fact, one of the provisions of the Geneva Convention stipulates that military small-arms ammunition be metal-jacketed (usually with steel) in order that the bullet not expand in the body, increasing likelihood of a so-called "through-and-through" wound. Expanding ammunition for military weapons is banned by international law. The steel jacketing DOES increase the chance of penetration of body armour, but most so-called "bulletproof vests" are only rated to stop relatively low-power HANDGUN ammo, and NOT rounds fired from a rifle (rifle cartridges have up to 2000fps greater muzzle velocity than handgun cartridges, which imparts significantly greater kinetic energy).

And fully automatic weapons have been closely regulated in this country since 1934.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AZCat]

28. You do realize...

That your 'sig has misspellings?

[Spider Jerusalem]

31. No, I didn't.

Note, please, the difference between international English (ie, the way EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD writes) and American.

[LibraLabSoldier]

27. Thanks for the backup.

[AZCat]

38. There are differences between rounds, though

The AK-47 round has a different tumble in soft tissue (or 80% gelatin - the stuff they use to test this) and can cause lots of tissue trauma. The Geneva Convention stuff is disputed quite a bit, because there is a possibility the reqs actually increase the lethality of the round. Crazy stuff. I have some links, but I don't know where they are (some random sub-directory, I suppose).

[Spider Jerusalem]

40. 5.56mm NATO tumbles even more than 7.62x39mm, according to what I've seen.

That was apparently one of the military's considerations in selecting the 5.56mm calibre for the M-16 (some of Stoner's early prototypes were in 7.62mm NATO)...they wanted to maximise the wounding potential.

[AZCat]

44. I have a better link, but here is one that is interesting

The Suniland Shootout in 1984 had a big impact on the gun community, and here is a good report of the aftermath.

There are links to the gelatin-testing guy (Dr. Martin L. Fackler) somewhere in my directory, but I can't find them.

Also, this site is currently down: www.ammolab.com
but it is normally a good resource. Dunno why it doesn't work.

[LibraLabSoldier]

42. Yes.

I have seen pictures in MEDDAC books on damage caused by different military ammunition. The 5.56 that we use in our M4 is just barely strong enough to kill a man. Often than not it goes spiraling all through a body causing massive soft tissue damage. I am a hunter. I would not take a .223 hunting, I dont see why we use it for our military.

[poliguru]

21. I agree with you

[turnkey]

70. A lotta people in combat. n/t

[DenverDem]

2. If we don't have guns, how do we defend ourselves against freeper militia?

Seriously, I would not be unarmed these days. You are correct to support the right to bear arms, it's patriotic.

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. I am scared to death of guns, but there are more and more times

when it seems like it's going to make more sense to have one than not.

[kikiek]

25. Unfortunately that is a sign of our times. We are all so scared.

I don't disagree with gun ownership, but obviously don't agree with the postings on this either. I see where this is going.

[LibraLabSoldier]

30. The world is getting scary......

And part of it is how polarized the political system is becoming....Its this whole us v them attitude. Personally, I think there is really only one us. The US!

[MrBenchley]

63. What a preposterous post....

"how do we defend ourselves against freeper militia?"
What the fuck are you talking about? Where is anybody under attack from "freeper militia"?

"You are correct to support the right to bear arms, it's patriotic."
Yup...just look who agrees 100%.



Of course he's a corrupt racist piece of shit, too....

[eleny]

3. Lots of folks here own guns

So, yes, there's a place.

[AngryLizard]

4. There should be a place for them

Since there's plenty of them.

[Djinn]

5. you should try the I/P forum some time

there's a hair raiser! I'm pretty sure there are a lot of DU gun owners, many avoid that forum because of the vitriol that folks on both sides are guilty of.

[LibraLabSoldier]

9. Thats why I came here to ask this question...N/T

[WLKjr]

8. I am buying my first shotgun ever in a week or two

a 12gauge pump action shotgun, I think it's a model 270 mossberg. Like someone else said here, you don't need a assualt rifle with armor peircing bullets just for shit's and giggles. If you want one of those you are up to no good.

[salinen]

11. Shit yeah

Just not assault rifles or machine guns.

[LibraLabSoldier]

16. It is easier to try to clarify in here.

Machine guns are illegal. It is possible to get one, but it is very very expensive, and very difficult to obtain through legal channels. It is nearly impossible to obtain through illegal channels. As I keep saying, "assault weapons" is just a buzz word. It has more to do with cosmetic appearances to the weapon than actual functionality.

[karlrschneider]

41. Machine guns are legal if you have a federal permit. I had one some years

ago, but I didn't renew it (I worked with a police dept then). At the time it cost $500 to get the permit, it may be different now (or is it impossible to get one now?...I don't know)

[LibraLabSoldier]

43. It is still possible, but so prohibitively expensive and red tape filled,

It is hardly worth it except to a hardcorp wealthy collector. Less well off guys like me tend to stick to BAs for our collecting purposes.

[Codeblue]

13. No problem

I need to get one myself. Probably a shotgun. I want to be well prepared.

But yes, assault rifles are incredibly pointless even if they only cause as much damage as the average semi auto. If thats the case, then why not just stick with a simple semi-auto?

[xray s]

15. I think gun ownership by law abiding citizens is fine

I also think you should be licenced to own a gun. And if you break a law involving firearms (lets say, wreckless endangerment by shooting up a stop sign with a hand gun in a residential area, or shooting a rifle into your neighbors bedroom window) you should lose your right to own a firearm for life, on top of facing criminal penalties. Like I said, I think gun ownership by law abiding citizens is fine.

BTW, those instances are true stories from my middle class suburban neighborhood.

[cheezus]

17. exactly. democrats ARE NOT anti-gun, just anti-crazy

[poliguru]

29. True

What concerns me is when people who have guns to defend their home and family bypass other options and just start shooting. As I said in a thread awhile back, if someone just broke into your home, fine. Pull out your gun and watch him run - while your significant other calls the cops (an important step). But if someone is lurking around your driveway, lock your doors, call the cops, and be prepared. You don't need to go out and meet trouble.

Remember that Japanese exchange student who got shot to death on Halloween night several years back - it was in Georgia, maybe? (I can't remember exactly where) Kid was confused, looking for a party he was supposed to go to, wandered up the wrong driveway, paused too long - owner came out and shot him. Thankfully, the vast majority of people don't do this, but it's the few that think everything can be solved with some ammo that scare me.

And I don't believe we all have a God-given right to have guns with us wherever we go, either. The NRA people who think they need to be packin' ALL THE TIME weird me out. BTW, that Arizona Gun Law passed the House but was defeated in the Senate. Bar owners everywhere breathe a sigh of relief.

[LibraLabSoldier]

37. That happened in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

My parents are from there. A few months ago, I had a similar situation. Someone was trying to force a window open in my house. I told my wife to call 911. I got my shotgun. Funny, the sound of the slide on a pump shotgun jacking a shell into the chamber was all it took. I heard swearing and running. Now for the really scary part. The police showed up about 20minutes later, took a desultory report, didnt even bother to look for prints. They then gave me a lecture on how my guns were stored. Serve and protect?

Not me.

I agree. The Yoshi Hatori incident was terrible and sad. But in defense of the homeowner, his house had been broken into mulitple times over a period of six months....I can understand his fear. He also plead guilty to manslaughter and publicly appologized to the young mans parents. It was an ugly incident.

[karlrschneider]

22. I have no idea what the 'gungeon' is, but myself and my partner have MANY

guns, and we're about as liberal generally as possible. I say "generally" because I realize many liberals are against firearms, so that's one exception...and probably another point is that we're fairly "conservative" in the purely fiscal sense. It's a somewhat complex position to have these days when 'liberal' is perceived by so many people as someting "wrong/evil" and the "conservatives" don't seem to give a shit about actually "conserving" anything except their own portfolios. The world has gone weird and I don't recognize much of it these days. :eyes:

[necso]

23. "I thought it was a right wing tactic to avoid facts..."

Yeah, you're right... Now think about that for a while.

Not everything is as it might seem.

Many of us gun owners have long since grown weary of the battle to demonstrate that many Dems are for a broad (and historically consistent) interpretation of gun ownership rights.

Personally, considering that this is key issue for Democratic political success, I wonder at the uncompromising attitude of many anti-gun posters. (I also wonder that certain anti-gun posters never seem to tire or grow bored -- just what is their motivation?)

The ignore feature is quite useful, you might want to check it out.

[MrBenchley]

64. Is that why the RKBA posters neve seem to have ANY facts?

"Personally, considering that this is key issue for Democratic political success, I wonder at the uncompromising attitude of many anti-gun posters."
Yeah, just look at all the posts down here attacking Democrats...oh wait, those are all by our "pro gun democrats."

Myself, I wonder why the trigger happy amongst us got no problem posting ignorant right wing drivel over here, or attacking any Democrat anybody's ever heard of, but seem to have a million excuses as to why they can't post anything even remotely pro-Democrat on a gun owner forum.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cat Atomic]

32. I really wish the Dem. Party should drop gun control as an issue.

There are plenty of Dems who own guns. I'm one myself.

[MrBenchley]

65. Yeah, let's have more people killed and wounded

and bend over for the right wing's uglest and most extreme splinter group...good call.

[sandnsea]

34. How ridiculous

They think the gun industry could possibly sell the number of guns it sells if Democrats weren't buying them too? They think Walmart jobs pay enough to buy guns?? Thinking, will somebody put up criticalthinking101.com, right away please.

[OHswingvoter]

35. I am a hunter and a gun owner.

I am an NRA member, like my father. In these parts, most homes have a few guns in them. And we don't have problems like in the big city, so it sure isn't the guns going around killing folks.

[wellstone_democrat]

36. The gungeon is FULL of instigators

plenty of us have guns, have used guns, do not have a problem with guns in the right hands---and I'm as left as they come. I'm a vet with a marksmanship ribbon don't currently own one but would have no problem getting one if I felt it was necessary or I wanted to go to the range regularly again.

The rabid anti-gun people looooove to go incite riots in the gungeon---like the anti-astrology/diet/spritualism/whatever do in the Meeting Room. They just can bear the idea that people are doing something THEY think is a waste of time. I haven't been in the gungeon in about two years, you can't have a sane conversation because of the patrolling trolls.

[LibraLabSoldier]

39. I learned that lesson the hard way

So I came here. I take my RKBA very seriously. I am an Active duty US Army soldier. If I am not deemed responsible enough to own weapons, who is?

I think I will avoid the gungeon from now on. I just wanted to get an opinion from the mainstream DUer....

[karlrschneider]

47. I wouldn't question your responsibility for a moment since you obviously

have some functioning neurons ;-)

And as a longtime very left-leaning (since 1963 at least when I first voted for a Republican, Goldwater which I don't regret but discovered the wrong direction 'my' party was going afterward)...Democrat, it's been a conundrum - vociferously defending the First and the Second Amendments at the same time. Something Dumbya said a couple years ago "a dictatorship would be great as long as I'm the dictator" (paraphrasing) reminded me of comments myself and my friends were saying back in the 70s (usually after partaking of some really good sinsemilla)
as how to run the world. We got over it...Chimpy never did.

[MrBenchley]

69. "I wouldn't question your responsibility..."

Ahem...

"LibraLabSoldier
66. Simple, I dont.
My children have been taught gun safety and responsibility since they were 18 months old. They know to treat all guns as loaded, and guns are not toys. It is really not that difficult to raise your kids to understand this. Besides, my shotgun that stays under my bed is difficult for even my wife to operate, much less one of the kids.
LibraLabSoldier
69. My kids
Are aged 7 and 3. "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=80606&mesg_id=80606&page=

[LibraLabSoldier]

75. Are you stalking me now?

You dont agree with me. Fine. Do me a favor and leave me the hell alone.

[MrBenchley]

78. Gee, I thought

somebody posting praise about how "responsible" you are ought to get an eyeful of your "responsible" behavior, as VOLUYNTEERED by you.

But as to whether I'm "stalking" you, I didn't even respond to a post you put up.

[T Town Jake]

59. Well-put, and exactly right.

n/t

[underseasurveyor]

45. There has to be a place for us.

Lots of us on this side of the fence are gun owners. :hi:

[UdoKier]

46. I think there are a ton of gun owners here.

I don't care for guns and favor a ban on all handguns, but I am in the minority.

My perspective is different having lived in Japan for many years. Violent crime is so rare even now that it's just not a concern for most people. That's the way it should be, IMO.

I know it's not as simple as just gun control, but I think that would be a huge step in the right direction.

I would oppose a ban on rifles, however. They are legitimate for hunting and self-defense.

[Droopy]

48. I saw your thread over in the gungeon

It all looked pretty civil except for one person. Don't let one person taint your view of all Dems. We are a very diverse party. Your right to bare arms is going to be protected if Kerry wins. I think that should be your main concern regarding this issue.

[OHswingvoter]

49. It sounds like most of us are on the

same page here. So where do these anti-gun people come from? Are they just trouble makers?

[underseasurveyor]

51. My mom is very anti-gun

and would probably be labeled a troublemaker in a gun thread and she hates it that I have and enjoy them. But I believe her anti stance stems from a lack of knowledge and lack of experience of never being around them or taught to use one safely and properly. So simply she is afraid of them and therefore is anti-gun. We fear what we aren't familiar with.

[OHswingvoter]

52. That makes a lot of sense.

I know that I get upset whenever anyone talks about "taking your guns away" and I don't consider that they may have reasons that they do not feel comfortable with guns. Lots of people think the Democrats are against guns but not in my family. My father was a lifelong FDR democrat he was a blue collar union guy who was also an NRA member and believed in a strong foreign policy.

I take care of my guns and use them safely. They are one of my main sources of recreation target shooting and hunting. I also feel safer having them. There is not much crime out here in the country even though we mostly have guns. I think the crime in the cities is because so many people are packed together in a smaller space not because of guns. When people have some elbow room, they have less crimes and most of us have guns and use them a lot.

[underseasurveyor]

53. When I read through gun threads I notice that being said

by many people unfamiliar with firearms. That they are afraid of guns. But I can almost guarantee, and I bet you could too, that if we took out someone that is afraid of guns, taught them the proper and safe way to handle and shoot a pistol or a rifle? After a few rounds they'd go, YEAH this IS fun ;-)
That's what I said when my first husband taught me how to shoot. I said, YEAH I like this :thumbsup: Before that I was terrified of guns myself. Now I can out shoot my current husband and his two rightwingnut gun worshipping brothers, at least half of the time. heh heh The first time I shot clay birds with his brothers I used the eldest brothers shotgun. Never shot the thing before and outshot him with his own gun. His huge ego suffered a little that day. He got outshot by a girl with his own shotgun ya know :-( I had 15 years of shooting experience at that time he didn't take into account. Tried to warn him :evilgrin: ha ha That was a fun day :-) And dispite the fact I'm a Liberal, they actually respect me and like me.....heh heh

[OHswingvoter]

54. I think it is

great that you enjoy your guns and can have fun with your family using them. I guess that those of us Democrats who use guns safely and responsibly need to speak out more. I think that we just need to educate the anti-gun folks. I do understand how many anti-gun folks are concerned about crime but I am not convinced that guns are responsible for crime. Most guns are just a source of recreation and protection. People who would commit crime don't need a gun. Look at the damage a person can do with a bomb or anthrax. It is hard to scare or hurt that many people at one time with a gun.

[MrBenchley]

66. I been a trouble-maker all my life and proud of it...

Funny thing, back when I was helping make trouble over ending segregation, I heard many of the same crapass arguments in favor of Jim Crow that I hear now for "gun rights"...and even by some of the same individuals....

And I don't see any reason to let a corrupt industry set public gun policy. I guess that makes me anti-gun by some people's lights. I'm happy to stand with the other anti-gun people.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=15904

[DemWitch]

50. I inherited my Grampa's shotgun...

I've used it all of twice since I was 12. Before the millenium, I did purchase a handgun from a local dealer for the sole purpose of protection. I wasn't one of the tinfoil people, but I wanted to make sure that if anything happened, I would be able to defend myself. I was going to return it the first week of January, but I kept it instead.

I am a bit afraid of guns, lets say a healthy respect. But I'll be damned if anyone tells me I can't have it. I don't think there is a problem with having to register it, or have a license. Which reminds me LLSoldier... maybe you can tell me why... why does the handgun need to be registered, but the shotgun not?

I also think the gun laws have been FUBAR'd by picking and choosing. Easy law... you have any firearm, you register it. You get caught without a registration, first time 2K fine. 2nd time 2 yrs in prison. 3rd time, life. Use a gun in a crime. 1st time 2 times the maximum sentence of that crime added on. 2d time, life. No if it shoots 7 bullets vs 10, or shoots 5 rounds a second or 10 crap. Want a one shot Derringer, register it. Want an Uzi. Register it. Nice and clean and easy.

[Nightowl_2004]

55. SANE/SAFE Gun Ownership is not merely acceptable but

A tremendously good idea. I saw a report on John Stossel's "10 Lies and Myths" (or something to that) where one of the Lies and Myths was "Guns are bad" He interviewed a bunch of convicts and they said their #1 Fear was an Armed American. That is a good reason for gun ownership but another is that it's a good way to keep tabs on your government.

If, god forbid, one day a truly evil, Oppressive Government took power and suspended the constitution, imposed martial law, etc... How would America be able to fight back if it had no guns. Like one DU'er on another Gun thread I saw, said "If you lose the right to say f***, you lose the ability to say f*** you!"

[Kinkistyle]

56. Gun ownership is relatively low on my list of priorities.

I am pro gun control, however I think there are more important things that need to be worried about at this time like the war, the economy and social welfare. Would I protest in the streets if a gun-control bill doesn't get passed? No.

[T Town Jake]

57. And that's one major reason why...

...I no longer participate in that forum, among others.
Besides which, since both Kerry & Edwards are openly - and vocally - RKBA, I figure why bother with the immature, childish grief the gun control crowd regularly dishes out down there? The "debate" over this issue within the Democratic Party is basically over: the RKBA side won. Just ask the current nominees.

[MadProphetMargin]

58. I'm FOR gun ownership, for three reasons:

1. The constitution should not be monkeyed with. Period.

2. Personally, I *like* shooting firearms. It's fun.

3. They are our LAST defense against tyranny.

[Q]

60. Guns are like religion...

...in that politics doesn't have to be about either one.

- Perhaps some people are just naive when it comes to politics and wedge issues. These are issues RWingers use to divide the Democratic party and prevent the discussion of topics vital to the American people...like health care, jobs and accountable government.

- I own a gun...but I've never mentioned it on this board. Why? Because...like religion...it has nothing to do with good or representative government.

[slackmaster]

61. The fallacious tactics you refer to aren't bound to any ideology

Guilt by association, genetic fallacy, straw men, argumentum ad hominem, red herrings, etc. are commonly used by anyone whose position is not supported by rational, fact-based arguments.

Do you guys think there is a place for gun owners in the Democratic party? Or do you have to be choosy about your allies?

The fundamentally adversarial nature of our political system ensures that there is always a place for minority viewpoints within any body, at all levels, at all times.

[MrBenchley]

62. Too too funny...

"Do you guys think there is a place for gun owners in the Democratic party?"
If there is a place, I sure don't think it's a place from which to snipe constantly at Democrats, cheer for Republicans, and post crap from right wing cesspools.

"do you have to be choosy about your allies?"
I sure as shit am...which is why I support these folks...

...and piss on scum like this...


Evidently, some people got no problem climbing into bed with the likes of Alan Keyes and John AshKKKroft on this issue....but they sure scream like banshees when it's mentioned who they're snuggling up to.

[turnkey]

72. There voting record & statements...

on gun issues specifically, would signify to me that they don't have my best interests at heart.
Other issues stand on their own merits.

[MrBenchley]

74. Too too funny....

Hey, I don't doubt that "pro gun democrats" are in bed with folks like John AshKKKroft and Larry Pratt, and hate Democrats for their voting records...

One of you even posted an essay not so long ago specifically naming "civil rights" as one of the issues where Democrat votes made gun owners hate us.

I just find it funny as hell that you guys then try to pretend otherwise.

[Redneck Socialist]

67. The gungeon is like a train wreck.

It's horrifying, but you just can't look away. I'm not sure what the bizarre fascination is but I just have to take a peek in here whenever I log on. I guess it is partly the amusement factor. Most days the gungeon is the funniest forum at DU. It blows the lounge away for amusement value most days.

To answer your question, yes there is a place for gun owners in the Democratic party, a large and important place. It is vitally important that we not cede the issue to the antis. The success or failure of our party demands that we pro-gun "Democrats," (or is that "pro-gun" Democrats?) continue to speak up in defense of our issues.

[Romulus]

68. spot on

It's horrifying, but you just can't look away. I'm not sure what the bizarre fascination is but I just have to take a peek in here whenever I log on. I guess it is partly the amusement factor. Most days the gungeon is the funniest forum at DU. It blows the lounge away for amusement value most days.

I'm guilty of "peeking in" myself.

To answer your question, yes there is a place for gun owners in the Democratic party, a large and important place. It is vitally important that we not cede the issue to the antis. The success or failure of our party demands that we pro-gun "Democrats," (or is that "pro-gun" Democrats?) continue to speak up in defense of our issues.
:toast:

[goju]

71. Clearly MOST dems are pro gun, RKBA

The degree to which each of us has a sound understanding of guns is questionable though. I think fear and/or ignorance certainly plays a role in some peoples position on gun issues, or lack of a position really.

Without an education in guns/gun issues, the general public is forced to absorb and then regurgitate the propaganda and pandering put out by the likes of the VPC and Brady Campaign, and yes the NRA; hardly what would be considered honest sources of information. Unfortunately, once that propaganda takes hold, its hard to overcome. I know from my experience, my wife was once very much anti gun when we met. She wont ever be a CCW holder but, she is now an avid shooter and is well informed on the issues. Fear and ignorance can be overcome but it takes patience.

Regarding the gungeon, I think a daily or bi weekly thread devoted to dispelling some myths about guns would be a good idea. If it serves no other purpose than educating a few people on semi auto vs auto (obligatory AWB referrence), or what a flash suppressor does etc, it would be well worth it. At least they would be in a better position to understand the often ridiculous rhetoric they are bombarded with daily and make informed decisions.

[MrBenchley]

73. Really?

Funny how that don't keep gun loonies from saying otherwise all over the internet.

[gatlingforme]

76. One has to have a good sense of humor and take it with

a grain of salt. If you are pro gun like me than you will see plenty of intelligent and noteworthy replies from the "anti" people referencing "fuckwit" (my favorite), loony, pantload, Republican huggers, etc. or another favorite of mine is making fun of someone's typo or mispell. I will also advise you to refrain from making any personal posts on here reflecting anything that is dear to your heart - it will be laughed at in the future.

[gatlingforme]

77. The above post was a reply to the original post not Mr. B

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.