Hunt ban passed in UK despite protest

[Columbia]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/15/fox.protest/index.html

LONDON, England (CNN) -- Five protesters burst onto the floor of Britain's House of Commons on Wednesday as lawmakers were preparing to vote on a ban on fox hunting.

The break-in, which was captured on parliamentary television, caused a suspension of proceedings. It marks the country's second major security breach in less than a week.

The protesters broke into the chamber and heckled the government minister leading the debate.

The protesters were grabbed by doorkeepers and bundled out of the chamber.

The debate on the hunt resumed after about 30 minutes. Lawmakers later approved the bill banning fox hunting by a vote of 356 to 166.

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[Columbia]

1. I thought it was time for a non-AWB thread

I'm not too familiar with fox-hunting and its traditions (besides from Disney movies). Any of our UK DUers care to enlighten us?

[Maple]

2. The pursuit

of the inedible by the unspeakable.

[LibLabUK]

5. Hmm..

It's hunting for the inedible, by the unspeakable to protect the delicious when roasted and served with jus.

Whilst I personally don't support hunting, I can see its use. The damage that foxes do (as I can atest to, having had my S. London cellar invaded by urban foxes) and their nasty habit of killing all the chickens or lambs in order to get one for dinner, requires that their numbers be kept down. .

The options for doing this are limited to hunting with dogs (soon to be illegal), trapping, shooting or gassing.


Hunting with dogs does one thing, for all the cruelty arguments, it provides quite a few jobs in the countryside (afterall someone's got to look after and breed the hounds, stable the horses etc). This really isn't the case if we switch to shooting, gassing or trapping.

Now, it's not a good argument to make based solely on economics, which is why I don't support the hunts.

I'm not convinced shooting, gassing or trapping will be anymore humane.

In the end, the foxes need to be culled.. so we have to kill them somehow.

[goju]

6. Clarify

the dogs dont actually do the killing, correct? The dogs chase the fox, corner him, and the hunter takes a shot, correct?


Edit:

"From the commencement of the hunting season in November to its end in April, fox hunters terrorize the fox population, in hunts which typically last from late morning to tea time. Chased by numerous hunters and hounds, and often, radio-equipped trucks for tracking, the fox usually dies an agonizing death after hours of pursuit. As a group called "earthstoppers" usually fill every visible fox hole the night before the hunt, the hunted fox has no means of escape, and is forced to flee until exhaustion. Hunting hounds are bred for endurance, not speed, which means that each fox hunt can last as long as two hours, until the fox is finally seized, and if lucky, shot, before being thrown to the hounds. Sometimes, the fox is literally eaten alive by the dogs, torn to pieces, with the tail, feet and head usually taken as trophy. Some hunts still engage in the practice of "blooding," where the foxes' blood is smeared on the faces of those witnessing their first kill, usually children."

I assume they try to shoot it before the dogs get to it?

[LibLabUK]

7. No..

The dogs track and then kill the fox.

Pretty quickly too.. much quicker than gas or trap would.

The huntsman follow on horses... thrill of the chase type thing.

[goju]

9. Well, Im a hunter

but I dont see letting an animal run itself to near death, only to be then shot or devoured by dogs.

Cant comment on critter control over there but it does look like its a problem.

Tough one. I could see the "sport" in it but I also see more cruelty in it than I would prefer.

[LibLabUK]

10. Hmm..

" I could see the "sport" in it but I also see more cruelty in it than I would prefer."

Yeah. I think the sport is in the riding and the thrill of the chase (remember they used to hunt deer and other game like this too).

I think it is cruel too... but the simple fact is that there needs to be a cull, and in the end, dead is dead.

I'm not sure how one would go about stalking a fox, I know that they shoot some by lamping... but an awful lot of them are just wounded that way.

The other way, trapping, is totally barbaric in my mind as is gassing (locating the den and piping CO or some other poisonous gas into it).

I happen to think all forms of hunting are cruel, but culls are necessary not only for agriculture but also the environment.

[enfield collector]

3. killing for the sake of killing.

[LibLabUK]

8. It's not..

It's most definetly not killing for the sake of it. The hunts are employed by farmers to get rid of foxes on their land.

[enfield collector]

11. I was born and raised in rural Warwickshire, I know the people

that go fox hunting and why they do it. I stand by my original statement, there are much more efficient methods of varmint control. please explain the "blooding" ceremony if its purely pest control.

[LibLabUK]

12. Hmm

"please explain the "blooding" ceremony if its purely pest control."

Pretty sick, but it can probably be linked back to old tribal customs. I believe 'Blooding' is done in a fair few cultures.

However, I never said it was purely pest control, and I think that there's something to be said for preserving some traditional aspects of our culture even if they may not be to everyone's tastes (including mine).


As I've said in other posts I've no intention of ever doing any form of hunting, and to be honest, it doesn't make a single bit of difference to me whether there's a ban on hunting or not (infact, I'm angry that Parliament is wasting its time on this issue when troops are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan and innocent civilians are being butchered in The Sudan). The reason I'm debating it here is that there's a great deal of prejudice involved on both sides, and a lot of the anti's arguments against are based solely on the grounds of class... which I think is a poor argument.

[enfield collector]

15. you're right there are more important things that parliament

should be discussing. I'm not saying it should be banned either, I'm just calling it what it is. I collect military rifles and have hunted in the past, but I always eat what I killed.

[slackmaster]

4. The Brits have a flair for theater

You've got to love them.

I like watching Question Time. It doesn't matter which party is in charge; it's always a good spectacle. I particularly enjoyed the sparring between John Major and the Labour Party.

[gatlingforme]

20. I liked the part where they threw purple stuff at Tony Blair to

protest fathers lack of rights in the UK. LOL

[Jack_DeLeon]

13. I support hunting...

but I dont really like fox hunting.

IMO its one thing to hunt a deer or any other animal for meat, its another thing to hunt down an animal because some people think its a nuscience.

[LibLabUK]

14. Hmm...

"because some people think its a nuscience"

Do you kill mice and rats for food then?

Tell that to the farmer who's lost a whole coop of free-range chickens or a number of lambs to the buggers.

When they decided to colonise my cellar (and I live in S. London) I couldn't even get the RSPCA to come and clear them out, the smell was like someone opened the gates of hell.... It got to the point where I almost needed to call in an old priest and a young priest.. it was horible.

The fox population has exploded in the UK, probably because they're scavengers as well as predators, and so like rats the numbers increase as our waste output increases.

THey also attack pets (we've found a number of mauled cats recently) and spread disease too.

They're more of a plague than a nuisance.

[gatlingforme]

16. I saw that on the world news network, the Brits have a problem

with security apparently, in any case I am glad they banned the fox hunt crap, a bunch of morans killing foxes for the fun of it oops, I mean the sport of it.... I wonder do they eat the fox after it has been killed, probably not since it is torn into little pieces by the time the "sport" is done..... PUKE>

[iverglas]

17. I wonder

Did you happen to read any of the thread -- including the posts written by actual Brits -- before writing that bilge about "killing foxes for the fun of it oops, I mean the sport of it"?

Is it civil discourse to persistently make allegations that have already been rebutted?

I don't hunt myself, never have, have no plans to, and would probably manage to kill something to eat if the alternative was dying, but can't imagine actually doing it. That's just me.

I find it distasteful that some people *enjoy* killing the things they eat, and specifically that the primary purpose of what they do is very plainly to obtain the enjoyment, rather than the food. But that's just my personal opinion, and I would not express it unless I were directly asked (or it were relevant to something else, which it is here).

In the survival and development of the human species, first came killing wild animals, and gathering wild plants, for food. Next came raising domesticated animals, and cultivating crops, for food. Killing wild animals to protect livestock and crops is every bit as essential to the source of human food as killing wild animals for food is. (How essential that is, is not the question; the point is that the latter is no less essential than the former.)

The assertion is that it is necessary to kill foxes to protect livestock in the UK, i.e. to protect human food sources. I am not expressing an opinion on that assertion, although I would imagine that it is correct. I am also not commenting on the manner in which the foxes are hunted, since that doesn't seem to have been the topic of your post.

You simply asserted that foxes are killed "for the fun of it oops, I mean the sport of it".

What you need to do -- given that it is at least as necessary to kill foxes in the UK as it is for John Kerry or George Bush or any regular old hunter to kill birds in the US, in terms of securing a supply of human food -- is tell us what the difference is between the thrill/sport of hunting birds (or deer, or anything else that is eaten) in the US and the thrill/sport of hunting foxes in the UK.

'K?

[goju]

18. Easy

the method by which they are killed. Unless of course, you find being run to death a humane way to die?

[iverglas]

22. wipe those specks off yer specs

Easy
the method by which they are killed.
Unless of course, you find being run
to death a humane way to die?

What I said:

The assertion is that it is necessary to kill foxes to protect livestock in the UK, i.e. to protect human food sources. ... I am also not commenting on the manner in which the foxes are hunted, since that doesn't seem to have been the topic of <gatlingforme's> post.

Ya just can't follow the dots when ya've got specks on your specs. Of course, maybe that isn't your problem.

gatlingforme had objected to a bunch of morans killing foxes for the fun of it oops, I mean the sport of it. Plainly neither she nor you had the civility to read and/or acknowledge what had already been said in rebuttal of that claim.

The individuals who engage in fox hunting may be bloodthirsty and inhumane, but the hunt itself was originally, and still is, a necessity to protect a source of human food: poultry.

And I have absolutely no doubt that there are large numbers of bloodthirsty and inhumane hunters and farmers in the US who do all sorts of disgusting things: wound animals and leave them to die in pain, kill animals and leave their young to die of starvation, use dogs to kill small animals, and kill for the sheer "pleasure" of killing.

I am not a fan of the fox hunt in the form in which it is apparently practised. But unless people who eat chicken have an idea for a better way to protect that food supply from foxes, they should probably either stop eating chicken or shut up.

Remember that the chickens the foxes kill are the ones which are *not* raised in horribly inhumane factory-farm settings. Find that a humane way to live? Eat any of those chickens lately, goju/gatlingforme? Damn, life can be complex.

[gatlingforme]

19. 'K, I know you are right on this, but you lost me after I read your

first slam, so in any case, if you are comparing Fox hunt with bird hunt then you must not understand what the fox hunt is about. I do not like any hunting unless they eat the animal. so IMHO, that is what I think.


'K????

[iverglas]

21. yada yada

you must not understand what the fox hunt is about. I do not like any hunting unless they eat the animal.

Oh really. So you don't like USAmerican cattle ranchers hunting the large predators that kill their herds? You don't like USAmerican farmers killing the pests that eat their crops?

Okey dokey. Time for you to start protesting, I guess. Or at least expressing your disgust on the internet someplace. How 'bout here?


so IMHO, that is what I think.

It may be your humble opinion that that is what you think, and I guess I'd have to agree: it is your humble opinion that you think this. I wouldn't dignify it with the word "think", myself.

[LibLabUK]

23. Y'know..

If I didn't know better, I'd guess that this whole fox-hunting issue was just yet another chance for some people to have a dig at foreigners and their strange ways.

Not just in J/PS, but all over DU.

The total ignorance of the actual facts behind the hunts (as horrible as they are) seem to take a back seat to poking fun at the so-called 'ruling classes'. I say so-called, because fox-hunters these days are just as likely to be doctors, accountants, bank-managers and other professions and the rest of the nouveaux riche as they are to be landed gentry.

Something else I've noticed amongst the hunters here is that they seem, almost 100%, to look down their noses at the method of the hunt. Which is strange to me, as I would imagine that chasing a fox at a full gallop on horseback across fields which are partitioned by fences, ditches, trenches and hedgerows would take as much if not more skill and physical fitness than pointing a shotgun at a sky full of ducks from the safety of a blind.

But there you go.

I don't like fox-hunting, infact I don't like any hunting, but I like my roast chicken and lamb so I'm willing to put up with the hunt if it means I can have those for my tea on Sundays.


Anyway enough from me, I've gotta go make fun of some New Zealanders....

[petronius]

24. I don't think it's really xenophobia

I'm not a hunter, so take it for what it's worth, but I think most people are fine with the idea of culling a predator population, and the equestrian skills required to ride across rough country are certainly impressive. However, I have the sense that, for responsible hunters, minimizing the suffering of the target animal is a basic rule of hunting ethics. Any hunting method that doesn't do that is going to get a raised eyebrow, and it does seem that the fox suffers unnecessarily in the long chase.

Other options may also cause a lot suffering - traps and gas can be horrible;, and while I don't know what lamping is, any technique that leaves a bullet-wounded animal to crawl off and die is probably also going to get a big dose of condemnation from the hunters here. If hunting with hounds really is the most humane control method, then I say "tally-ho!"

Personally, I also feel initially skeptical toward any activity that uses one animal to fight or kill another, whether for hunting or management. It's not automatically wrong to use one animal against another, in my mind, but I usually need to be convinced of the appropriateness rather than the other way around.

Anyway, as you rightly point out, why make fun of the English (toffs or not) when the world contains an ample supply of Kiwis?

[gatlingforme]

25. why don't you just not bother replying to my posts then. save yourself

all the heartache.

[iverglas]

26. "heartache"?

Enormous fun, my dear.

Using one's noggin actually can be fun, you see. I always recommend trying it; one never knows what one might enjoy unless one tries. It can be even more fun than spouting uninformed "opinions" ... usually for the person doing it, and almost always for the people listening to it.

[gatlingforme]

27. sounds good, use your intelligence on someone who cares.

[UpsideDownFlag]

28. you know, fox hunting isn't exactly the most noble hobby.

i dont find the mental picture of snobby rich brits chasing down some poor fox with their dogs and thoroughbred horses very appealing. if you want to be rich and elite, just play polo on those fine animals.