Gun murders continue to rise in Detroit

[Lefty48197]

in spite of Michgan's new "shall issue" CCW law. I guess an armed society is NOT a polite society. Moral: Don't listen to NRA slogans or bumperstickers.

http://www.freep.com/news/metro/homicide2004.htm

Through November, there were 1,279 people shot in Detroit -- 247 more than in all of 2003 -- and 341 people have been killed.


http://www.freep.com/features/living/homicide4e_20041204.htm

Outside, in the darkness, a gun goes off. And then another gun. And then a third gun.

Too many shots to count.

It's raining hell on the east side of Detroit

http://www.freep.com/features/living/homicide5e_20041205.htm

On a gray misty morning, Margeree Jefferson wakes up early to wash death off her front porch.

She lugs a bucket of hot water, puts it down with a splash and collects bottles of Ajax, Pine-Sol, bleach and all-purpose cleanser. She puts on blue rubber gloves and black winter boots with rubber soles, even though it's the second week of June. "It's just the thought of this, that this is somebody's blood," she says. "I'm not superstitious, but it might be a bad omen to walk inside your house and have somebody's blood at the front door."

Jefferson, 62, dips a mop into the bucket and slops the water onto the painted wooden porch. As she scrubs back and forth, swirling the mop, bloody suds collect at her feet. Her expression is blank. This is the reality of living inside a murder scene -- a grandmother has to wake up early and clean up the blood of a stranger before it dries and leaves a deep stain that might never come out. Some stains never do.

For those of you who don't know already, The Detroit Free Press is a great newspaper that is always looking our for working people and families. They have always supported workers in their quests for better wages, benefits, and working condiditons.
I say this in pre-response to any gun nut who wants to call the Free Press and "anti-gun" newspaper, and fail to mention the newspaper's strong history of supporting the Democratic Party.

[-..__...]

1. Address the disease or the symptom?

Even the Detroit Free Press seems to be asking that.

"Why is this city killing itself?"

"Some say the violence in Detroit has become hopeless, that the culture makes murder inevitable. Homicide Lt. Roy McCalister has other ideas".


For those of you who don't know already, The Detroit Free Press is a great newspaper that is always looking our for working people and families. They have always supported workers in their quests for better wages, benefits, and working condiditons.
I say this in pre-response to any gun nut who wants to call the Free Press and "anti-gun" newspaper, and fail to mention the newspaper's strong history of supporting the Democratic Party.


Yeah, but seeing the word freep in the URL kinda makes me feel a bit uneasy. :smoke:

[iverglas]

2. a story worth reading

Some will argue that the violence in Detroit involves only a small percentage of people, but the aftershocks touch thousands. Others believe that violence is a personal choice -- either you pull out the gun and shoot or you don't -- it's no more complicated than that.

"It's no more complicated than that" obviously just isn't true.

The man said he was out drinking with some friends and got into an argument. "Over what?" the officer asked. "Nothing," he said.

People, and in particular young men, have got into arguments that led to violence since the dawn of the species.

When such fights occur in public places, and the participants do not have access to firearms, deaths are less likely to occur. Plain fact.

It is also entirely arguable that individuals who are not armed are less likely to instigate arguments likely to lead to violence, or escalate arguments into violence.

And that's all without even considering people injured or killed by the gunshots fired in such situations who were not the intended targets, or who became involved in situations that would not have arisen had others not been armed.

Police investigated the case for months and believe there were three shooters, a triangle of death. Once the shooting started, it was inevitable that someone would die.

It simply cannot be said that "once the fists started flying, it was inevitable that someone would die".

P.S. I'm from southern Ontario, and the Sunday Detroit Free Press was popular in my house in the days before Ontario newspapers put out Sunday editions. I could distinguish it from the real "freep" Detroit paper, the Detroit News, at a very young age. ;)

[slackmaster]

6. Arguable, schmarguable

iverglas opined:

It is also entirely arguable that individuals who are not armed are less likely to instigate arguments likely to lead to violence, or escalate arguments into violence....

Or it may be that individuals who are lawfully armed (including not drinking alcohol) are less likely to instigate arguments likely to lead to violence, or escalate arguments into violence. My experience has been that armed people are aware of the gravity of their responsibilities, and take care to avoid conflicts.

[iverglas]

7. the only problem being ...

Or it may be that individuals who are lawfully armed ...

that this thread is about individuals who were NOT lawfully armed.

And the only effective way to reduce the numbers of such individuals is to make it more difficult for them to obtain the firearms they arm themselves with, it would appear not to be arguable.

In any event, given that the only practicable bar to being "lawfully" armed in a whole lot of places in the US these days is having a criminal record, I really don't think that there are any particularly valid generalizations to be made about "individuals who are lawfully armed". And I have no doubt that there are, or will soon be, a significant fraction of them who are violent and/or stupid assholes, given that a significant proportion of the population is violent and/or stupid. Bad enough they're violent and/or stupid without firearms, I'd say.

And what silliness to speak only of the "lawfully armed" as being those who not drinking alcohol (or not in establishments that serve alcohol, or not in the throes of a psychotic break ...). Once they have that gun in their pants, there really isn't much that the rest of us can do to control what else they do. Whether they have a permit to go with it or not.

They're all law-abiding gun owners until they break the law.

My experience has been that armed people are aware of the gravity of their responsibilities, and take care to avoid conflicts.

Yeah, and my experience has been that if you go outside in January in your nightgown you will freeze to death in short order. I wouldn't pretend that my experience is universally applicable to everyone and everywhere else.

[slackmaster]

8. That's not what you said

You wrote "armed" so I had to conclude you were writing of being armed in the general sense. You went on to invoke a line of reasoning often used to argue against liberalized carry laws. And of course the original post starts off with "in spite of Michgan's new 'shall issue' CCW law" so it seemed reasonable enough to me to pick up that thought.

Once they have that gun in their pants, there really isn't much that the rest of us can do to control what else they do. Whether they have a permit to go with it or not.

A person with a gun in his or her pants responds to most situations and stimuli the same way he or she would without the gun. If you wish to be fearful because of people carrying guns that is your prerogative. In my life there are a lot of other things that matter more.

Yeah, and my experience has been that if you go outside in January in your nightgown you will freeze to death in short order.

Only if you choose to live in a place where that can occur.

[iverglas]

9. there ya go

A person with a gun in his or her pants responds to most situations and stimuli the same way he or she would without the gun.

I believe that would be pretty much what I was saying. A violent and/or stupid person with a firearm is a violent and/or stupid person with a firearm.

If you wish to be fearful because of people carrying guns that is your prerogative.

If you wish to characterize me as being "fearful because of people carrying guns", you are presumably able to offer some evidence to substantiate your allegation.

If you are characterizing me in that way, kindly offer your evidence.

If you are not characterizing me in that way, I have no idea why you would make this comment, since it would appear to be of no relevance whatsoever to anything under discussion.

If you wish to believe the moon is made of green cheese, that is your prerogative, eh?

In my life there are a lot of other things that matter more.

I'm sure there are. It's all a question of what matters to one, and that is dependent on what sort of person one is.

In my life, there are people like the elderly couple in Detroit living in very rational fear of the very real consequences of "people carrying guns". Those people matter, to me.

Only if you choose to live in a place where <freezing to death in January> can occur.

There ya go, you see? What do you suppose my point was?

Something along the lines of how circumstances alter cases, or, as I said, how one person's experience is not generalizable to the world at large?

Your experience with people carrying firearms is not the experience of the elderly couple in Detroit. If they don't matter to you, there's nothing I can do about it.

[RoeBear]

10. Untrue...

..."In any event, given that the only practicable bar to being "lawfully" armed in a whole lot of places in the US these days is having a criminal record,"

Anyone who carries a concealed weapon in the US (except Vermont and Alaska) is breaking the law UNLESS they pocess a CCW permit.

[iverglas]

11. so, what did you miss?

You copied it, you pasted it, you replied to it, but you didn't understand it?

I stated:

In any event, given that the only practicable bar to being "lawfully" armed in a whole lot of places in the US these days is having a criminal record,"...

Was it the practicable bar bit you didn't get?

How about "lawfully" armed?

Well, what is "lawfully armed"? Why, as you point out, outside Vermont and Alaska, it is carrying a concealed weapon with a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

And what is the only "practicable bar" to carrying a concealed weapon with a permit to carry a concealed weapon?

Well, it would be having a criminal record, which is what would prevent one from having a permit to carry a concealed weapon, and would therefore mean that if one went about "armed", one would not be doing so "lawfully".

And so, as I said, the only practicable bar to being "lawfully" armed in a whole lot of places in the US these days (i.e. those places with those "shall issue" laws, plus Vermont and Alaska) is having a criminal record.

So perhaps you would care to back up the allegation you made, that my statement was "untrue", with something? Money and mouth in the same place?

[RoeBear]

12. Untrue still...

[iverglas]

13. oh look!

The moon is still made of green cheese!

And haven't I always known that some people who post here buy their spectacles at special stores?

There's just no accounting for what some people see ... or claim to see ... and somehow just can't coax into visibility to anybody else.

Enjoy your trip!


http://www.psychedelic.ru/party/inmatrix/index.shtml

[RoeBear]

14. What is it with you and...

...the moon and green cheese?

[iverglas]

15. oh dear, here I thought it was so plain

Person A says:
<insert obnoxious/false assertion of your choice, being careful to avoid including anything resembling fact or argument to support the assertion>

Person B says:
yeah, and the moon is made of green cheese.

Y'see? One moronicly false statement made without a shred of evidence is as good as another.

Tit for tat. What goes around comes around. A taste of one's own medicine.

Nonsense for nonsense. I try to avoid insult for insult, but you may feel free to read between the lines.

[RoeBear]

16. My name is Tat...

...did you say that you have something for me?

[iverglas]

17. a great one

I simply refuse to consider the possibility that there has been a fresh ooze of misogyny in the vicinity. Patriarchy don't scare me.

You can be tat if you like.

tat
1a. tatty or tasteless clothes, worthless goods.
b. rubbish, junk.
2. a shabby person

Far be it from me to say nay.

[RoeBear]

19. The difference between men...

...and women.

[Squatch]

3. For a comparative look, how are gun crimes changing

in cities with other than "shall issue" statutes?


On edit...that question really made no sense.

What I meant to ask is "How are the numbers of gun crimes changing in cities with other than 'shall issue' statutes?"

[robre]

4. blessings

Bless the war on drugs and all of the victims of the worlds greatest genocide ever devised.

[Jack_DeLeon]

18. I agree with you...

Rounding up blacks and other undesirables and putting them in concentration camps just wouldnt fly in our society, yet.

Instead they come up with the whole war on drugs thing and blam now you have your undesirables killing off each other.

[slackmaster]

5. It's time to face the reality of CCW laws

Sounds like the people who claimed a shall-issue law would reduce crime rates were wrong: Available information suggests that liberalizing concealed carry has no effect on crime.

It's not the first time someone over-sold a good idea, and it won't be the last. At least there isn't any indication of additional unlawful shootings resulting from the improvement in personal choice.

I guess an armed society is NOT a polite society.

I've seen enough of Detroit to know that nothing could ever make it a polite society by the standards I've become accustomed to.

[Lefty48197]

20. You must have missed the parts I go to

Since I've been going to Detroit a couple of times a month for the last several years, I've gotten to know the town pretty well, and I like it a lot.

[robre]

21. the truth is

all these murders have something to do with the drug trade and you dont have that much to fear if you arent in the drug trade.

when he said he got shot in an argument over "nothing" you can be sure it was about drugs

the drug trade is an artifically created high stakes game

end the war on drugs

[iverglas]

22. that's right

you dont have that much to fear if you arent in the drug trade.

And as long as you don't live in a neighbourhood where some of your neighbours are involved in the drug trade, and don't go to a bar where some of the patrons are involved in the drug trade, and aren't in the wrong place at the wrong time when somebody involved in the drug trade mistakes you for somebody else ...

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/03/18/funeral020318

LAVAL, QUE. - A Montreal-area father of two was remembered at an emotional service Monday as a loving family man who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Yves Albert, 34, was shot to death last Thursday while filling up his mini-van with gas.

Police have since suggested that the killing was a case of mistaken identity. They said Albert's vehicle and licence plate resembled those of a member of the Bandidos motorcycle gang, who had been the target of an attempted murder by rival bikers a few months ago.

... Twelve innocent bystanders have been wounded or killed in the crossfire between warring biker gangs in Quebec during the past seven years.

I have no problem with ending the war on drugs. I just don't see much point in arming the factions fighting the war over drugs.

[Lefty48197]

23. While it's true that the drug trade causes many of the shootings,

It's not only the guilty who get shot. It seems like a weekly story around here where some innocent child gets killed by a bullet that doesn't ask the age of the person it's being shot towards.