Secret Israeli training site in Iraq

[Scurrilous]

Exclusive: A number of Israeli companies have won contracts with the Kurdish government in northern Iraq to train and equip Kurdish security forces and build an international airport, Yedioth Ahronoth reports

<snip>

"Dozens of Israelis with a background in elite military combat training have been working for private Israeli companies in northern Iraq where they are helping the Kurds establish elite anti-terror units, Israel’s leading newspaper Yedioth Ahronot revealed Thursday.

According to the report, the Kurdish government contracted Israeli security and communications companies to train Kurdish security forces and provide them with advanced equipment.

Motorola Israel and Magalcom Communications and Computers have won contracts with the Kurdish government to the tune of hundreds of thousands of U.S. dollars.

The flagship of the contracts is the construction of an international airport in the northern Kurdish city of Ibril, a stepping stone towards the fulfillment of Kurdish national aspirations for independence."

more

[Name removed]

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[xchrom]

2. of course they knew.

the u.s. isn't going to oppose{behind closed doors} what israel does.

and israel knows that.

[Wordie]

13. Either way, it appears this isn't a secret anymore. It's destabilizing.

And either way, it seems to be another bit of evidence of the US incompetence in the ME.

Either they did not know (dumb), or they knew and approved the deal (hopelessly dumb).

Presuming, of course, that the report is true, and not just some sort of bizarre effort to further destablilize the region.

[xchrom]

15. the u.s. is out of control.

there are so many disparate elements --each not telling the other what they're doing -- it's chaos.

that being said -- since reagan -- i think pnac related folks are employed all over the place in the gov.

why wouldn't they be -- given the over reaching designs these folk dream up?

if there are israeli military type folk training kurds for security purposes -- i have to think that 43's admin knows.

[Coastie for Truth]

17. Please explain with some degree of analysis and specificity

why you interpret this as "destabilizing"?

Did you know that

Kurds were first promised an independent nation-state in the 1920 Treaty of Sèvres. The Treaty of Sèvres divided the former Ottoman Empire between the United Kingdom, Turkey, and others. Independence was granted to Armenia as well. Since that time Kurdish nationalists have continued to seek independence in an area approximating that identified at Sèvres. However, the idea of an independent nation-state came to a halt when the surrounding countries joined to reject the independence of Kurdistan.

So they have been screwed worse then the Palestinians. Just not as romantic a cause.

[Wordie]

25. A more interesting question would be why this promise should be honored

but not the similar promises made to the Palestinians regarding their own national ambitions (since you raised the issue). It seems to me that all those who feel that national aspirations and the right of self-determination are indeed crucially important, should join in deploring the broken promises made to the Palestinians as well, and work toward righting that wrong.

Perhaps there are some who believe it would be better if the West could deal only with the Kurds, and to hell with the rest of Iraq. The short-sighted view might be that it could eventually satisfy US oil interests. But although it might also satisfy the Israeli aims of causing destabilization in the region, it is not in the true interests of the US. A civil war, particularly one that would spread to neighboring countries, is not a desireable outcome of the US invasion. We invaded Iraq supposedly to improve the lives of the Iraqis; this would be yet another way that the opposite is what actually happens. I believe the war deeply damaged US credibility; a civil war for Kurdish independence, for which our own oil interests were seen as the beneficiaries would hardly help matters. Things are bad enough as it is. It is not in US interests to damage any further our relationship with the Arab world.

I personally have some very mixed feelings, as I had a Kurdish friend at one time, so I have an emotional response to the issue, and I further do tend to support the desires of all cultures for self-determination. (Its that pesky liberalism of mine, Coastie, which you seem to find so objectionable. LOL) I'm just not certain that an independence achieved in this manner, at this time, will be a good idea. It will create additional bloodshed and war, which I tend not to support.

[Name removed]

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[pelsar]

37. moral dilema?

I'm just not certain that an independence achieved in this manner, at this time, will be a good idea. It will create additional bloodshed and war, which I tend not to support.

yet you support the palestenains for their independance and that has brought bloodshed and other violence....

whats the difference?...are the kurds a "lesser" people? do that have a lesser connection to the land that they dont deserve their own independance?...why is it if their attempts bring bloodshed is their blood less worthy than that of the palestenians?

btw... hate to break it to you, but israels interest is in a stable democratic iraq.....and if thwarting terrorism in kurdistan helps, which it seems the kurds want, i would think the liberal world would agree that its a good thing...unless killing kurds by terrorism is deemed a better alternative than receiving help from israel.

[Wordie]

41. Once again, you misconstrue my statements. If the goal is

stable democratic Iraq, then it is my belief that Kurdish aspirations for independence should not be encouraged at this time. Irrespective of what Israel may or may not want, a move toward Kurdish independence would only further drag the region - and not JUST Iraq - into chaos. It would further damage Turkey, a strong US ally in the region and member of NATO.

As I've mentioned before in this thread, as a liberal, my gut says to support the Kurds in their bid for independence. I just think that a Kurdish bid for independence, now, made possible as a result of the illegitimate US invasion, would be disastrous for US interests. (And the war itself has been disastrous enough.) I do not wish to damage any further our relationships with the Arab world, and this move threatens to do that.

[eyl]

23. Assuming the report is true

How exactly is training the Kurds in counterterrorism (of which Iraq has a little problem, in case you haven't noticed) a destabilizing event?

[Wordie]

26. If it's part of a Kurdish separatism effort, it is. Civil war, anyone? n/t

[eyl]

27. According to the OP

this was counterterrorist training. Such expertise would be of limited value in a full-on civil war. That is, use for it could be found, of course, but the posession or the lack of this expertise wouldn't affect the chances of a civil war erupting.

[Wordie]

28. Not just training that is a worry; its the airport, and the unilatateral

decision-making (they awarded the contract without the involvement of the federal government), at a time when the effort is to create a unified Iraq.

And yes, it's an issue that it was an Israeli company too. Given some of the other perceptions of the Iraqis regarding the goals of the US in invading, this was not a good idea, imho.

btw, here is an excerpt from an article discussion recent polling information on Arab perceptions of the invasion:
<snip>
Recent opinion polls of six Arab countries show that rising anti-American attitudes in the Arab world are due mainly to American foreign policy, as opposed to American civilization or values. According to the surveys, none of the six Arab countries returned approval ratings of the US above 20%, a statistic due in large part to the fact that America’s Iraq policy now equals its Israel-Palestine policy in garnering criticism. Most Arabs felt that America invaded Iraq not to democratize the region or remove Saddam Hussein, but instead to secure oil, protect Israel, and dominate the Muslim world. When asked how the US could improve its reputation, answers included “stop supporting Israel,” “change your Middle East policy,” and “get out of Iraq.” ... – YaleGlobal
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=4305

[Coastie for Truth]

30. That's your real issue

And yes, it's an issue that it was an Israeli company too. Given some of the other perceptions of the Iraqis regarding the goals of the US in invading, this was not a good idea, imho.

isn't it?

[Wordie]

32. Here is information from the results of a Zogby poll,

taken just recently, that you might want to consider:

In the new poll, 69 percent of those surveyed doubted that spreading democracy was the real U.S. objective. Oil, protecting Israel, dominating the region and weakening the Muslim world were seen as U.S. goals.

"America's presence in Iraq is seen as a negative. It is scaring people about American intentions and having the opposite intended impact on Arab public opinion," Telhami said in an interview.

More than half -- 58 percent -- said Iraq was less democratic than before the war and three of four said Iraqis were worse off.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051202/wl_nm/mideast_usa_poll_dc

You see, I believe that by invading Iraq, we just played into the picture that ObL was painting of us, as agressors and occupiers, the "new Crusaders". And by doing so, we gave ObL the best recruiting tool imaginable, and ultimately created MORE terrorists who hated the US. This action threatens to do the same, imho. Therefore it is not in US interests.

And please stop mischaracterizing my beliefs and attitudes. It is highly offensive.

[Coastie for Truth]

33. Offense?

I would like you to stop mischaracterizing my beliefs and attitudes as it is equally highly offensive.

We agree on one thing - 31% of Zogby's responders are Bushies who buy the Bushie line.

And a second point - those of use who belong to the Tau Beta Pi "secret society" and entered it via the Thermodynamics and Physical Chemistry and "Bird, Stewart and Lightfoot - McCabe and Smith" pathway KNOW that OIL is THE driving force.

[Wordie]

36. Those were Arab respondents. eom

[pelsar]

34. and what about the kurds?

maybe the kurds prefer to be protected?...why should the kurds worry about some poll on what some "arabs in dictatorships think?.....in fact if those dictatorships decide to support the US they could turn around the public opinion in a media bltz.

I would think in the liberal world, there would fully support for the kurds to learn to defend themselves after being screwed by so many....for so long

[Coastie for Truth]

35. The Kurds should have known better then to ask israel for help

The would have been better off asking the Russians or the PRC.

[Colorado Blue]

39. I agree and I find some of the attitudes expressed kind of

strange. I've even seen some Saddam apologist threads, blaming the Kurds for getting themselves gassed.

Go figure.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Coastie for Truth]

16. Maybe it's a stabilizing event for Kurdistan

Who Bush I screwed in the First Gulf War.

I find it amazing that the self anointed LIBERALS who want an independent Palestinian state are so opposed to an independent Kurdish state.


I are not so smart - I are a injunear. I just know from LaPlace and Fourier.


:shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

[4dsc]

4. What Kurdish government??

I thought they just had one government in Iraq??

[enigma000]

6. Iraq is a federal republic

There are 18 states, 3 with a majority Kurdish population. These 3 have a "regional" level of government as well.

[Mika]

7. What Kurdish government? The one setting up oil drilling w/Norwegian oil

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5492244

http://tinyurl.com/8gwaj

[Coastie for Truth]

19. See post 18

and check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan> for a start - then proceed with your research from there.

[Coastie for Truth]

18. The one promised to them at the close of WW1 by the Allies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan> for a start - and proceed with your research from there.

[Ian David]

8. Only credible sources are allowed in the LBN forum. n/t

[sabra]

9. Yedioth Ahronoth - is a major Hebrew newspaper published in Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yedioth_Ahronoth

peace.

[Ian David]

10. I'm wrong 1/12 of the time. This may be one of those. Thanks. n/t

[daleo]

11. "Codename Z" does sound a little strange, though.

I take your point about it being an Israeli newspaper, but Codename Z reminds one of the anti-Jewish world conspiracy stuff one occasionally hears of.

[Wordie]

20. The truth is stranger than fiction...LOL

It appears that this is a legitimate article. Too often, it seems to me, things that put Israel in a bad light, or are critical of Israeli policies, or point out things that Israel or individual Israelis have done or said openly, are interpreted as "anti-semitic" or "conspiracy theorist" when they clearly are not. That's not to say that anti-semitism and conspiracy theories don't exist, however.

This sounds so unbelievable as to be one of those "conspiracy" type of thingies, but looks like it's the real deal.

[StrafingMoose]

14. Heh...

The Defense Ministry said in response to the report that, “We haven’t allowed Israelis to work in Iraq, and each activity, if performed, was a private initiative, without our authorization, and is under the responsibility of the employers and the employees involved."

Ahh, the joys of front companies. "Full profit, full plausible denial!"

[pelsar]

21. and if true?

so?..why is israel helping the kurds with self defense "so unacceptable"...if it were the Brits or the Danish...would there be a problem?...i doubt it.

and if the israelis are building an airport..wouldnt the US know about it?

so whats so awful about the isaelis helping a people who have been repressed for so long?....longer than the palestenains?

[Andromeda]

22. That's a fact.

The Kurds have a long history of repression. They had some anticipation that the US would protect them from Saddam after Desert Storm but Bush I abandoned them and left them to the mercy of Saddam's cruelty.

The Kurds have been attacked with mustard gas numerous times. Saddam commited many atrocities on the Kurds and nobody came to their aid.

Good for Israel if they are helping them.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Colorado Blue]

38. The Kurds are an ancient people who have suffered terribly

as a minority - as have MOST minorities in the Middle East.

I had a Persian friend who worked with them, some of the nomadic Kurds in the mountainous regions of Iran. They're interesting people, incredibly talented weavers. Other Kurds - also weavers - live in Iranian villages. Still others, nomadic and otherwise, live in the Caucausus region, some in Turkey. They have no place to call their own.

I fail to see why the idea of a Kurdish homeland is so upsetting to people. As it is, they are involved in violent clashes in Turkey and have been horribly persecuted in Iraq.

[Jim Sagle]

40. Fuckin' A.

[Lithos]

42. Locking

This article has generated some extremely inflammatory discussion.

Israel has had a rather strong relationship with the Kurds which started shortly after the 1948 War when Israel was reaching out to non-Arab allies. There is a rather famous photo of the famous Kurdish natioal leader, Mustafa Barzani, embracing Moshe Dayan during this early time period.

The Kurds helped rather extensively during the 1950 emigration of Jews from Iraq which reveals a rather significant relationship at this time. Israel in turn has supplied the Kurds over the years with both arms and humanitarian assistance. Israel was also a major player in the arming and training of the Kurdish militia and the source of humanitarian assistance following the first Gulf War. Israel has even allowed the use of it's state radio equipment for the airing of radio programs into Kurdistan by one of the largest Kurdish parties, the KDP.

So is it surprising that the Kurds would favor Israel which actually has served as one of their few allies?

This article was not about any grand conspiracy on the part of Israel or the US which is how it appears to be taken. Given the background above it is rather obvious Israel is not "sneaking" into Iraq on the coattails of Bush, Cheney and Halliburton, but is very likely continuing a relationship at the genuine request of the Kurds themselves.

Lithos
I/P Forum Moderator